Gumgod: considering you have access to free mana pump spells, damage is not an option on how to kill the creature. Condemn they already have counterspell/vines backup. So either you have StP and plains in your opener or you are in really bad shape.
TheUsualSuspect: I understand what is the problem that people see in Hymn now. My question is why now? Nothing in the deck has changed. Why is it such a big problem now when it wasn't before? Other decks received some new cards while MBC hasn't and all of a sudden the deck deserves a ban?
The Deck doesn't need a ban.... Like I dont even think MBC is that good lol if i had played in the last few weeks I got tons of decks i'd bring to this field that could beat MBC. how soon you forget i'm the king of stopping hymn..... Ive complained about hymn for the last year from the days i was showing up every tourney. If you remember my zoo deck that warped the meta for a bit was Directly designed and honestly made because of hymn decks. Jund was only the #1 deck for as long as it was because of hymn. and now with Pain lands Jund can have turn 2 hymn consistently, Azban can have turn 2 hymn consistently. even BW control now can all but guarentee turn 2 hymn mana.
The only Reprise I see in sight is Wilt-Leaf Liege has a good chance of cycling in. Giving any green/white "fair" style deck access to 8-12x Come into play cards to stop hymn... Like once BBE and wilt leaf liege come in I'm playing Zoo or Bant and just stacking anti Hymn cards lol. Again I don't think Hymn is an unbeatable card. I just feel it "warps" the meta of Heirloom to where you either have to have something to beat it or you lose to it and I just don't feels that in the spirit of a event like this. I think the Meta as a whole would be more diverse but we will see come next rotation what happens.
The deck gained wrench mind, I may be in the minority on that being playable but redundancy is redundant ya know. I stress that you ban hymn and someone just brings wrench/verdict together and nothing has changed. I guess my post above was lost in the infect shuffle, but the way to answer hymn is to let the slower decks have back some of the ways to regain the card advantage they are being stripped of in the early game.
I also think that stacking a deck with "x" free into play creatures is a fine strategy for combatting, but if that is the real answer then maybe cards like hymn are a problem. I don't see how being forced into playing a 3/3 for 4 with the only upside being, if i play against this card, if they cast it at a point I randomly have it in hand, and then again if it is one of the chosen random cards, ive done something is a healthy way to play magic. That seems like a lot of letting RNG be RNG.
The deck gained wrench mind, I may be in the minority on that being playable but redundancy is redundant ya know. I stress that you ban hymn and someone just brings wrench/verdict together and nothing has changed. I guess my post above was lost in the infect shuffle, but the way to answer hymn is to let the slower decks have back some of the ways to regain the card advantage they are being stripped of in the early game.
I also think that stacking a deck with "x" free into play creatures is a fine strategy for combatting, but if that is the real answer then maybe cards like hymn are a problem. I don't see how being forced into playing a 3/3 for 4 with the only upside being, if i play against this card, if they cast it at a point I randomly have it in hand, and then again if it is one of the chosen random cards, ive done something is a healthy way to play magic. That seems like a lot of letting RNG be RNG.
I think you have the stats backwards, Loxodon Smiter is a 4/4 for 3 (not a 3/3 for 4) it is good against counterspells and discard. Wilt-Leaf Liege costs 4, but is also a 4/4, and it pumps your team.
edit: If you play them with Dryad Militant and Fleecemane Lion, you have an aggressive curve, and could be the basis of the green white, or Bant deck that has been mentioned.
edit 2: you must be talking about Dodecapod, that card is sideboard at best.
I am talking Dodecapod, and that card has been seeing play main deck the last few weeks. Turn 1 game 1 vs my ravens crime for instance. These decks have not been winning the tournaments or top 4 despite playing 6-8 main deck discards men and several pro black creatures despite 50% of the field playing Hymn. I do agree that getting and playing wilt-leaf is fine, as is smiter. That doesn't change having to stack a bunch of cards and hope that the numbers line up in the lottery of play against hymn + have it be in hand at same time as random discard, get it to work thinking.
I am talking Dodecapod, and that card has been seeing play main deck the last few weeks. Turn 1 game 1 vs my ravens crime for instance. These decks have not been winning the tournaments or top 4 despite playing 6-8 main deck discards men and several pro black creatures despite 50% of the field playing Hymn. I do agree that getting and playing wilt-leaf is fine, as is smiter. That doesn't change having to stack a bunch of cards and hope that the numbers line up in the lottery of play against hymn + have it be in hand at same time as random discard, get it to work thinking.
Its not winning because no one is running the right shell for these decks.... This format right now is perfect for a GW hatebear style zoo deck.... Maybe ill show up running one this week... Wilt-leaf Liege coming in with the rotation also is HUGE... Most people don't realize this but that zoo deck I built back in the day actually started with 4x Wilt-Leaf Liege in it Hence the 1 mana G/W split cards. But then I found out it wasn't legal literally once I had the 60 cards finished Hence why my zoo deck Version 1 that won had like 2x Berserk 1x Boros Charm 1x random 1 drop creature....
That card is a Game changer and will fit in many decks that people already run Zoo/GW/Mono White/Mono Green That card is just that good. I do feel the randomness of hymn vs Wrench is huge though. Mono Black would become an auto loss vs decks like that with Hymn Replaced with Wrench.
Nothing was added to the deck, so why was it ok to play back then and now it's ban-worthy?
I don't think the question quoted above is entirely helpful. It reminds me of Hillary Clinton ("it was ok back then, so it's fine now!"). The meta for this tournament changes significantly based on the cards rotating in/out which is based on prices which fluctuate a lot. In addition, the meta changes due to the heavy bans on the cards that annoy people the most as well as their overall power level (for example Fact or Fiction, Counterspell etc). The meta also changes based on who happens to be playing in certain periods of their lives (yes this is real given how small the player base is). For example, when ML_Berlin was playing this format, the chances of either Elves or UW Control appearing in an event would be higher than 5% every single event. This almost certainly had very little to do with whether Hymn was overpowered or not back then. Or to take another example, I don't think that the likelihood that Deonmag will play Duskmantle combo will increase/decrease based on whether Hymn is too potent or not. What this means is that a card might be unhealthy in the format, but it will not necessarily stop a person from playing the decks they like anyway.
The more relevant question is "Is it ban-worthy now?". I think that the Hymn has got to go now, after it has had its glory days in the sun. By glory days I mean randomly screwing over opponents on Turn 2 in a friendly Player Run Event. If someone can explain to me why my Decree of Justice is completely banned but Hymn runs rampant, then I might change my position. Until then, I have no sympathy towards those wishing to chant their hymn to their god Tourach.
I say to the black mages: "Let them eat cake!" (cake being Wrench Mind!").
Michelle hits on one idea that I had trouble articulating, specifically the meta shift depending on cost of cards. Though my argument for the Hymn deck getting a ban is about the consistency that Wrench Mind and Sinkhole will bring to the deck, which seem like they weren't legal before. Overall, TLR argues that Infect is too reliably a turn 2 kill. I think a lot of the complaints about Hymn and Sinkhole is that it allows the Hymn decks consistency in locking their opponent out of the majority of plays after turn 2. Even though the victory doesn't technically happen until turns later, one opponent has little to no chance after turn 2 fairly consistently now, and it will only go up if Sinkhole rotates in. I just want to argue for consistency across the bannings, whether it makes both infect and hymn legal, or takes both of them out.
Though my argument for the Hymn deck getting a ban is about the consistency that Wrench Mind and Sinkhole will bring to the deck, which seem like they weren't legal before.
Sinkhole would be a new one to the format, but Wrench Mind has been legal before. It's just not consistently good.
I'm not speculating on cards rotating in yet. We are just talking of the actual list.
Fair enough, and thanks for letting us have this open discussion on it. I appreciate the work it takes to run a PRE like this, and not all let their community have a say in the banlist. In terms of one thing on the banlist now, that would be legal I THINK is Misthollow Griffin. If I understand correctly from the discussion a few weeks back this has been on the banlist since before much of the current community has been playing, and with Eternal Scourge in the format, there's no reason for the ban.
A general question for TLR: is a goal of the banlist to avoid Turn 2 kills (with counterspell backup)?
In terms of one thing on the banlist now, that would be legal I THINK is Misthollow Griffin. If I understand correctly from the discussion a few weeks back this has been on the banlist since before much of the current community has been playing, and with Eternal Scourge in the format, there's no reason for the ban.
A general question for TLR: is a goal of the banlist to avoid Turn 2 kills (with counterspell backup)?
Like you said, with Eternal Scourge in the format, I don't see why Misthollow Griffin should be banned. If anyone can think of a reason not to unban it, please say. I can only think of redundancy and I don't think that's what's going to break it.
And yes, turn 2 kills are not desirable if your opponent can't respond to it. If it's a glass cannon build like cephalid, I think it's more acceptable. Yes, I am biased, but when you go all in and your opponent has Faerie Macabre or Ravenous Trap or even cards like Beckon Apparition (Generalissimo uses it), you auto lose the game. Having a counterspell makes a huge difference.
The thing with Ceph is If you wanted you could build it to play around graveyard hate.. Remember my boring version? with 2x Gaea's blessing that took 10+ min to combo off? my opponent would need 2 graveyard hate cards to beat it not 1... I still think ceph will eventually be banned as we get better lands maybe ill start playing it again once we have good lands and win a few events with it or something.
Now as to the ban list. I have another question.....
Why is Dark Ritual banned if the only reason it was banned was to stop a deck that you also banned the main card in? I didn't play back then but like Storm and combo decks are literally unplayable in our format and that card might actually add some ability for combo decks not named Cephalid to become viable. It could also be interesting To maybe shake up the format a bit.
Something like
Banned
Hymn
Unbanned
Dark Ritual
Zuran Orb
Might be interesting to shake up the format a bit. Again I don't know exactly why it was banned i didn't play back then but it appeared from my reading this thread that it was just lumped with the necrotic ban. and with worldgorger already banned all I could see Dark ritual doing would be Making MBC better (evened out if hymn was banned) and maybe making some turn 4-5 combo decks into viable turn 3-4 combo decks like eggs. Or dusk mantle combo.
I don't think the format needs Dark Ritual. Best case scenario, it won't matter because it won't get played. Worst case scenario it allows for broken stuff to happen. And there isn't a middle ground on this case. Nobody cares about ramping into a Hypnotic Specter or any other card that doesn't impact immediatly, so either it's played in combo or not at all.
And I do remind you that while I can remove stuff from the banlist, I will always play safe about it. You won't see me unban a couple of cards at once. They were banned for a reason.
I think it would be completely safe to unban Zuran Orb and Griffin. I don't think these go in the same deck, so I don't see them doing anything too crazy.
Reanimator wants dark ritual. Graveborn entombs are only 45 cents. I know that's a special set, and probably not considered at rotation, but even without entomb, Putrid Imp + reanimate is a pretty good first turn. A turn 1 buried alive into turn two animate dead is also pretty scary. Ooze was definitely a big part of the problem, but other reanimate targets could come and go. Storm has also been played before, and even though Tendrils is banned, I'm sure something degenerate could done with a few rituals. This is what storm used to look like. I love dark ritual, and personally wouldn't mind seeing or playing it, but this is one you need to think about before changing.
Yeah, turn 1 Dark Ritual -> Entomb (Iona) -> Animate Dead / Exhume kills most decks. Don't think I will unban Dark Ritual
You mean the former like 10 dollar card entomb? that will 99% never cycle into and is only 90 cents (and sold out) due to panic selling after treasure chests and EMA...
Entomb shouldn't be in the format with or w/o dark Ritual. I just mean would be nice to have combo decks that are viable in this format. Like eggs or Storm or something.... Without tendrils or Ooze Dark Ritual would be fine... Zuran orb would be fine too. Worst case for Ritual is like turn 1 Ritual Buried alive turn 2 reanimate. But how is than any differt from turn 1 gamble turn 2 reanimate or turn 1 draw 2 disard 2 turn 2 reanimate that I already do lol.
But its w/e i can understand not wanted to even open that door. But idk this format is getting kinda boring All the combo enablers available are banned or cost too much but then you leave OP cards like Hymn in to ruin any creativity people can come up with. Like i'd love to run zuran orb and build an eggs deck or a Restore balance deck. Would it warp the format probably not. Would it be viable and fun to play probably. Will i just stick to running Midrange deck X Y Z because this format has turned into Linear deck A vs Midrange deck B in every top 4 also probably...
Yeah, turn 1 Dark Ritual -> Entomb (Iona) -> Animate Dead / Exhume kills most decks. Don't think I will unban Dark Ritual
You mean the former like 10 dollar card entomb? that will 99% never cycle into and is only 90 cents (and sold out) due to panic selling after treasure chests and EMA...
Like I said when I first brought up entomb... the Premium deck version is 45 cents. There are two currently in stock, and there were two in stock yesterday. It probably won't rotate in due to the fact that it's a special printing, but it's not far off from a legal price point. It has been down in price since EMA. It's unlikely, but treasure chests could push it further down. We've also made an exception for the premium deck version of lightning bolt in the past, allowing it to be played even though the non-foil printing was significantly more expensive. It's not completely unprecedented that this card could end up in our format. I was completely unaware however that Iona was so cheap (currently showing 52 cents).
But idk this format is getting kinda boring All the combo enablers available are banned or cost too much but then you leave OP cards like Hymn in to ruin any creativity people can come up with.
If you want a combo deck, try High Tide. I gave it whirl once, but I'm not good with it and my computer glitches a lot when running MTGO making it even worse to try and play a complicated combo deck. Reset, meditate, high tide and turnabout are all available. You can kill with blue sun's zenith or brain freeze.
As Gumgod's example illustrates, there are many viable decks in the format that aren't played regularly, many of them combo decks. Hell, I won a match with a Coalition Victory deck since it was tuned to beat aggro decks, but failed hard against Hymn. That being said I've made decks better against control/combo matchups that failed against aggro, and the occasional sweet one that works against both. Currently wanting to spend some time tweaking my Sundial of the Infinite deck that showed some promise at 2-2 last week (although I'm already brewing a Misthollow Griffin + Eternal Scourge deck now). The general brewed a pretty awesome token/polymorph->Ulamog deck that posts consistent results, the meta is hardly stale.
Yup, I consider Cephalid and Twin to be the premiere combo decks of the format that can consistently post results. That being said people are ready for them with specific sideboard hate, so they aren't overpowered.
The format is only "stale" if and because people in general are not innovating at all. A few people build new decks every few weeks, and around rotation time, the rest play the same deck as always (which is fine), or wait and copy whatever decks seem to be delivering results in the current metagame. I have atleast half a dozen decks that are fresh and either could be played in the upcoming weeks or are 1 or 2 cards short of being viable and waiting to see how rotation helps. The recent price drops are going to help the entire format get better mana over the next 1 plus rotations and it should open up tri color decks, more efficient control , etc.
Littlefield, I agree with you. Treasure chests are going to enable great things for this format. There will soon be some very potent new cards on the horizon...
Treasure Chests and pain lands rotating out of standard should make the meta even more open. For anyone looking for a brew to try I would suggest an enchantress/Eidolon of Blossoms deck.
I am very torn about our format right now. We have a bunch of people wanting hymn to tourach banned, and in comparison with the cards that are banned that certainly seems reasonable.
However at the same time we have combo decks running around which can kill you before you even untap to put your 2nd land into play. Then again we have cards that cost 4 mana that draw 2-3 cards on average banned and the most effective way to make sure you do not die on turn 2 is also banned.
We have killed the balance of a natural rock, paper, scissors format. Control cannot exist in our current metagame at a competitive capacity.
I know the arguments we can all play a whole bunch of entirely specific hate cards in our sideboards and then if and only if MTGO actually lets the sideboarding function work, we can then try to win back the 2nd and 3rd games after not getting a 2nd or 3rd turn in the first. Still we banned invigorate preemptively for the very reason of not wanting a fragile but turn 2 deck existing in the format..... what gives?
I agree with Littlefield's sentiment overall, it is frustrating to have cards of different power levels banned. I know I was not playing when Azorius control was apparently oppressive, but Counterspell and Fact or Fiction hardly seem to be on the level of Invigorate or the ooze. Meanwhile Hymn is a card that alone is able to end some games, as early as Turn 2. Somehow that reasoning is okay to ban Fact or Fiction, but not Hymn to Tourach? I very much agree with the move to no partial banlists, but if there is a balance between combo, control, and aggro all should be on the same power level. Mono red is powerful, but Infect could be something to give Cephalid deck a run for its money. With gut shot and so much other 1 mana removal/disruption available I'm not really certain that it would be so unstoppable on turn 2. As it stands now the Cephalid matchup is just a "do you have sideboard cards" postboard, so its bound to turn some off based on that interaction as well
No more partial banlists. We all agree it is not intuitive and especially hard to explain to new players, so that ends today. What does this mean? Swords to Plowshares is now fully legal. Decree of Justice will be banned for all colours. Why? Well, it was unfair to ban StP in any deck incluiding blue but other decks could use it, and it's a staple card and premium removal so it is now unbanned in blue also. The DoJ is not really used nowadays so I guess nobody will miss it, but unbanning it and StP might be a bit too much and allow for the old UW Control decks to dominat, therefore it is banned
Fact or Fiction is banned. This card is by far the best card advantage available to us and after one resolves, it is hard for the other player to win the game. This ban is partially to stop the previously mention UW deck to dominate, now that StP is unbanned. The other reason to ban it is because of the cloudpost decks. People haven't been playing with them, but when someone does, they were the deck to beat. While I want a big mana deck in the format, most players felt the deck was too oppresive, and the card most said that needed a ban was FoF. This allows for the cloudpost decks to keep playing and is a piece less in the boogeyman deck.
Invigorate is banned. This is a preventive measure as the infect deck is already capable of killing on turn 2 and with this rotation would receive Invigorate and Groundswell and would become much more consistent, so I decided to take out the card I thought as being the worst offender.
Goblin Lackey used to be banned, but was unbanned to fight UW control (that deck was THE deck to beat). This was around the same time counterspell was banned. Piledriver was also in the format, and Berlin played a lot of Goblins. Goblins had several top finishes and were considered too good as they could kill on turn 3. You can search this thread for piledriver to read some of the discussion about it, or take the way back machine to the old forums and look for it there. Anyway it was deemed too powerful to have both lackey and Piledriver in the format, but Piledriver rotated out, so no action was taken. When it rotated back in Berlin just flat out banned it. (logic below)
When Lackey was banned, Goblin decks were just not played for about 5 months. When it was unbanned, Lackeys added more speed, but the Piledrivers won the games. Only with Piledrivers a goblin deck can win on T3. All the mass damage or removal spells cost 3 mana at least.
If it's not in the starting hand or drawn in T1, a Lackey is usually useless.
Quick question, is the highest rarity of a card the one used to determine legality? Trying to think about Argothian Enchantress, she's mythic in EMA so hopefully she survives next rotation
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The Deck doesn't need a ban.... Like I dont even think MBC is that good lol if i had played in the last few weeks I got tons of decks i'd bring to this field that could beat MBC. how soon you forget i'm the king of stopping hymn..... Ive complained about hymn for the last year from the days i was showing up every tourney. If you remember my zoo deck that warped the meta for a bit was Directly designed and honestly made because of hymn decks. Jund was only the #1 deck for as long as it was because of hymn. and now with Pain lands Jund can have turn 2 hymn consistently, Azban can have turn 2 hymn consistently. even BW control now can all but guarentee turn 2 hymn mana.
The only Reprise I see in sight is Wilt-Leaf Liege has a good chance of cycling in. Giving any green/white "fair" style deck access to 8-12x Come into play cards to stop hymn... Like once BBE and wilt leaf liege come in I'm playing Zoo or Bant and just stacking anti Hymn cards lol. Again I don't think Hymn is an unbeatable card. I just feel it "warps" the meta of Heirloom to where you either have to have something to beat it or you lose to it and I just don't feels that in the spirit of a event like this. I think the Meta as a whole would be more diverse but we will see come next rotation what happens.
I also think that stacking a deck with "x" free into play creatures is a fine strategy for combatting, but if that is the real answer then maybe cards like hymn are a problem. I don't see how being forced into playing a 3/3 for 4 with the only upside being, if i play against this card, if they cast it at a point I randomly have it in hand, and then again if it is one of the chosen random cards, ive done something is a healthy way to play magic. That seems like a lot of letting RNG be RNG.
I think you have the stats backwards, Loxodon Smiter is a 4/4 for 3 (not a 3/3 for 4) it is good against counterspells and discard. Wilt-Leaf Liege costs 4, but is also a 4/4, and it pumps your team.
edit: If you play them with Dryad Militant and Fleecemane Lion, you have an aggressive curve, and could be the basis of the green white, or Bant deck that has been mentioned.
edit 2: you must be talking about Dodecapod, that card is sideboard at best.
Its not winning because no one is running the right shell for these decks.... This format right now is perfect for a GW hatebear style zoo deck.... Maybe ill show up running one this week... Wilt-leaf Liege coming in with the rotation also is HUGE... Most people don't realize this but that zoo deck I built back in the day actually started with 4x Wilt-Leaf Liege in it Hence the 1 mana G/W split cards. But then I found out it wasn't legal literally once I had the 60 cards finished Hence why my zoo deck Version 1 that won had like 2x Berserk 1x Boros Charm 1x random 1 drop creature....
That card is a Game changer and will fit in many decks that people already run Zoo/GW/Mono White/Mono Green That card is just that good. I do feel the randomness of hymn vs Wrench is huge though. Mono Black would become an auto loss vs decks like that with Hymn Replaced with Wrench.
I don't think the question quoted above is entirely helpful. It reminds me of Hillary Clinton ("it was ok back then, so it's fine now!"). The meta for this tournament changes significantly based on the cards rotating in/out which is based on prices which fluctuate a lot. In addition, the meta changes due to the heavy bans on the cards that annoy people the most as well as their overall power level (for example Fact or Fiction, Counterspell etc). The meta also changes based on who happens to be playing in certain periods of their lives (yes this is real given how small the player base is). For example, when ML_Berlin was playing this format, the chances of either Elves or UW Control appearing in an event would be higher than 5% every single event. This almost certainly had very little to do with whether Hymn was overpowered or not back then. Or to take another example, I don't think that the likelihood that Deonmag will play Duskmantle combo will increase/decrease based on whether Hymn is too potent or not. What this means is that a card might be unhealthy in the format, but it will not necessarily stop a person from playing the decks they like anyway.
The more relevant question is "Is it ban-worthy now?". I think that the Hymn has got to go now, after it has had its glory days in the sun. By glory days I mean randomly screwing over opponents on Turn 2 in a friendly Player Run Event. If someone can explain to me why my Decree of Justice is completely banned but Hymn runs rampant, then I might change my position. Until then, I have no sympathy towards those wishing to chant their hymn to their god Tourach.
I say to the black mages: "Let them eat cake!" (cake being Wrench Mind!").
Sinkhole would be a new one to the format, but Wrench Mind has been legal before. It's just not consistently good.
Fair enough, and thanks for letting us have this open discussion on it. I appreciate the work it takes to run a PRE like this, and not all let their community have a say in the banlist. In terms of one thing on the banlist now, that would be legal I THINK is Misthollow Griffin. If I understand correctly from the discussion a few weeks back this has been on the banlist since before much of the current community has been playing, and with Eternal Scourge in the format, there's no reason for the ban.
A general question for TLR: is a goal of the banlist to avoid Turn 2 kills (with counterspell backup)?
The thing with Ceph is If you wanted you could build it to play around graveyard hate.. Remember my boring version? with 2x Gaea's blessing that took 10+ min to combo off? my opponent would need 2 graveyard hate cards to beat it not 1... I still think ceph will eventually be banned as we get better lands maybe ill start playing it again once we have good lands and win a few events with it or something.
Now as to the ban list. I have another question.....
Why is Dark Ritual banned if the only reason it was banned was to stop a deck that you also banned the main card in? I didn't play back then but like Storm and combo decks are literally unplayable in our format and that card might actually add some ability for combo decks not named Cephalid to become viable. It could also be interesting To maybe shake up the format a bit.
Something like
Banned
Hymn
Unbanned
Dark Ritual
Zuran Orb
Might be interesting to shake up the format a bit. Again I don't know exactly why it was banned i didn't play back then but it appeared from my reading this thread that it was just lumped with the necrotic ban. and with worldgorger already banned all I could see Dark ritual doing would be Making MBC better (evened out if hymn was banned) and maybe making some turn 4-5 combo decks into viable turn 3-4 combo decks like eggs. Or dusk mantle combo.
I think it would be completely safe to unban Zuran Orb and Griffin. I don't think these go in the same deck, so I don't see them doing anything too crazy.
Reanimator wants dark ritual. Graveborn entombs are only 45 cents. I know that's a special set, and probably not considered at rotation, but even without entomb, Putrid Imp + reanimate is a pretty good first turn. A turn 1 buried alive into turn two animate dead is also pretty scary. Ooze was definitely a big part of the problem, but other reanimate targets could come and go. Storm has also been played before, and even though Tendrils is banned, I'm sure something degenerate could done with a few rituals. This is what storm used to look like. I love dark ritual, and personally wouldn't mind seeing or playing it, but this is one you need to think about before changing.
You mean the former like 10 dollar card entomb? that will 99% never cycle into and is only 90 cents (and sold out) due to panic selling after treasure chests and EMA...
Entomb shouldn't be in the format with or w/o dark Ritual. I just mean would be nice to have combo decks that are viable in this format. Like eggs or Storm or something.... Without tendrils or Ooze Dark Ritual would be fine... Zuran orb would be fine too. Worst case for Ritual is like turn 1 Ritual Buried alive turn 2 reanimate. But how is than any differt from turn 1 gamble turn 2 reanimate or turn 1 draw 2 disard 2 turn 2 reanimate that I already do lol.
But its w/e i can understand not wanted to even open that door. But idk this format is getting kinda boring All the combo enablers available are banned or cost too much but then you leave OP cards like Hymn in to ruin any creativity people can come up with. Like i'd love to run zuran orb and build an eggs deck or a Restore balance deck. Would it warp the format probably not. Would it be viable and fun to play probably. Will i just stick to running Midrange deck X Y Z because this format has turned into Linear deck A vs Midrange deck B in every top 4 also probably...
Like I said when I first brought up entomb... the Premium deck version is 45 cents. There are two currently in stock, and there were two in stock yesterday. It probably won't rotate in due to the fact that it's a special printing, but it's not far off from a legal price point. It has been down in price since EMA. It's unlikely, but treasure chests could push it further down. We've also made an exception for the premium deck version of lightning bolt in the past, allowing it to be played even though the non-foil printing was significantly more expensive. It's not completely unprecedented that this card could end up in our format. I was completely unaware however that Iona was so cheap (currently showing 52 cents).
If you want a combo deck, try High Tide. I gave it whirl once, but I'm not good with it and my computer glitches a lot when running MTGO making it even worse to try and play a complicated combo deck. Reset, meditate, high tide and turnabout are all available. You can kill with blue sun's zenith or brain freeze.
I am very torn about our format right now. We have a bunch of people wanting hymn to tourach banned, and in comparison with the cards that are banned that certainly seems reasonable.
However at the same time we have combo decks running around which can kill you before you even untap to put your 2nd land into play. Then again we have cards that cost 4 mana that draw 2-3 cards on average banned and the most effective way to make sure you do not die on turn 2 is also banned.
We have killed the balance of a natural rock, paper, scissors format. Control cannot exist in our current metagame at a competitive capacity.
I know the arguments we can all play a whole bunch of entirely specific hate cards in our sideboards and then if and only if MTGO actually lets the sideboarding function work, we can then try to win back the 2nd and 3rd games after not getting a 2nd or 3rd turn in the first. Still we banned invigorate preemptively for the very reason of not wanting a fragile but turn 2 deck existing in the format..... what gives?
[quote from="TLR_TLR »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/magic-online-formats/other-mtgo-formats/641612-classic-heirloom-every-friday-sunday-now-in-our-10?comment=256"]
Goblin Lackey used to be banned, but was unbanned to fight UW control (that deck was THE deck to beat). This was around the same time counterspell was banned. Piledriver was also in the format, and Berlin played a lot of Goblins. Goblins had several top finishes and were considered too good as they could kill on turn 3. You can search this thread for piledriver to read some of the discussion about it, or take the way back machine to the old forums and look for it there. Anyway it was deemed too powerful to have both lackey and Piledriver in the format, but Piledriver rotated out, so no action was taken. When it rotated back in Berlin just flat out banned it. (logic below)