fair enough.
Ill try to find the original list and see if thats the way, or if something more insidious is in store. Using Manipulate Fate to RFG them to get 3 free 3/3 creatures into a zone you can play them from does seem sweet on the surface.
Tried breaking Hymn this previous week, but the zone which hymn cannot battle is the top of the deck. TLR was able to set up the combo just manipulating his top cards and playing them as they came. Each other competitor had almost no resources or a game plan after turn 3.
Congrats to Goblin Hero for winning the tournament yesterday. Your Blue/Red Delver deck is very potent, it reminds me very much of the equivalent deck in Legacy format.
Thanks
and sorry I missed that commander request. I have a habit of gaming until the last minute, and sometimes when I leave for my shift I forget to close the MTGO client. Ill be sure to get a nice team commander deck ready for the next time you need an extra competitor.
I have been doing this, and even got some games in with PauperRBust this way. My timing has been erratic lately though, besides the PRE events, most of my play has been 3am-7am EST.
I vote for the compromise option which you mention.
On another note, can I recommend we ban the card TIDEHOLLOW SCULLER until Wizards fix the known bug which currently exists with the card (the exiled card often doesn't get returned to the player's hand when it dies). This bug doesn't always occur, but it still often occurs and Wizards knows that this bug still exists. In a sanctioned tournament, the problem can be rectified by filing a reimbursement report, however this option of course doesn't exist in Classic Heirloom. Until this bug is fixed, the card is WAY too powerful (It is currently Thoughtseize on a 2/2 beatstick without the need to pay 2 life!).
The same applies to DESECRATION DEMON because that card is played in our format, and yet the known bug still exists (opponent can't tap it down by sacrificing creatures).
I have double-checked today, and both these bugs are still not fixed.
Both bugs occur some of the time. I doubt that anyone knows (even Wizards staff) the exact percentage of how often each bug occurs, or the exact circumstances which trigger it. From my experience, the bugs seems to occur in the minority of cases (I'd guess 15% of the time, roughly). The Tidehollow bug happened to me in the Modern Inquisition tournament 2 days ago, so I sent a message to the Orcs in the Support chat to ask them about it, and they told me that they are aware that the bug still exists.
I and others have not been playing Desecration Demon already. I'll just skip bringing the Orzhov variant of hymn.dec until it is clear the cards work as intended. Thanks for the information.
Also with the recent price drops, I cannot wait to add Sinkhole to the mix, the black decks were lacking the "tools" to compete before but the last and coming rotation should usher in the long black winter.
I didn't see Demon on the page 1 ban list, or the updated list you made for CBD on page 11. I am ok with him being banned while bugged certainly, but it is entirely possible that someone else entering into the format would think he was legal at the current time.
I have been trying to scour over the buglist on mtgo, and it only depresses me. So many issues and it seems to only grow more bugs with each scheduled update.
Just an update too my involvement in heirloom. I have been told it is frowned upon to be playing in more than 1 PRE at once. I do understand that this could cause slow play by players, so will just not play heirloom on Sunday during Standard Pauper events.
I will say that even playing multiple of these events at once, I have never had an issue with slow play, and normally one of the first matches completed. I have also played against several players who are routinely 10 plus minutes behind on the clock in every match. Some players even peculiarly act only when others of the same group arent acting, as if one person is taking the turns, and then moving match to match. This was very apparent when during a match earlier in the week i was watching 3 other matches. When my opponent and 2 of the other players all disconnected and relogged into the games at the same time. But now we are saying that is some wall of text, yep thats good coverup guy.
I would agree that Hymn should not be banned, I disagree that mono red needs a banning though. My previous janky combo decks were made to be good against low to the ground aggro, and would consistently fail against Hymn decks or Twin. My Sundial deck was built with facing the latter matches more, and didn't include as much hate for aggro and it showed in those matchups, although both times I played against mono-red I was pretty close to taking a game off of them. Personally I think of it like building a cube, you want mono-red aggro or something similar in a format to keep the combo/control decks at a high level of efficiency. In terms of bannings next rotation, I'd love to see Misthollow Griffin unbanned if it still falls in the price range, it seems like it could be a solid control deck, but not too overpowered.
I would agree that Hymn should not be banned, I disagree that mono red needs a banning though. My previous janky combo decks were made to be good against low to the ground aggro, and would consistently fail against Hymn decks or Twin. My Sundial deck was built with facing the latter matches more, and didn't include as much hate for aggro and it showed in those matchups, although both times I played against mono-red I was pretty close to taking a game off of them. Personally I think of it like building a cube, you want mono-red aggro or something similar in a format to keep the combo/control decks at a high level of efficiency. In terms of bannings next rotation, I'd love to see Misthollow Griffin unbanned if it still falls in the price range, it seems like it could be a solid control deck, but not too overpowered.
Hymn needs to be banned Not because of what we currently have but because of what we may have cycling in. If Vindicate Sinkhole Caves Of kolias and Languish all come in I literally just do not want to play... I have a rough draft of the deck together and it would just not be fun to play against and Would complete just remove creature decks from being viable.
The deck would just destroy this format. Combo would have almost no chance against it stripping your hand/killing your lands and Agro decks would just flop.
Rough Outline of the deck would be like
4x smallpox
4x STP
4x sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x sign in blood
2-4x languish
4x Thalia (main or sb)
I would agree that Hymn should not be banned, I disagree that mono red needs a banning though. My previous janky combo decks were made to be good against low to the ground aggro, and would consistently fail against Hymn decks or Twin. My Sundial deck was built with facing the latter matches more, and didn't include as much hate for aggro and it showed in those matchups, although both times I played against mono-red I was pretty close to taking a game off of them. Personally I think of it like building a cube, you want mono-red aggro or something similar in a format to keep the combo/control decks at a high level of efficiency. In terms of bannings next rotation, I'd love to see Misthollow Griffin unbanned if it still falls in the price range, it seems like it could be a solid control deck, but not too overpowered.
Hymn needs to be banned Not because of what we currently have but because of what we may have cycling in. If Vindicate Sinkhole Caves Of kolias and Languish all come in I literally just do not want to play... I have a rough draft of the deck together and it would just not be fun to play against and Would complete just remove creature decks from being viable.
The deck would just destroy this format. Combo would have almost no chance against it stripping your hand/killing your lands and Agro decks would just flop.
Rough Outline of the deck would be like
4x smallpox
4x STP
4x sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x sign in blood
2-4x languish
4x Thalia (main or sb)
I'd love to play that deck. I was already told that I was playing an "unfun" deck for playing Braids and Pack Rats. So obviously people have different ideas of fun. Mutilate is already in the format. Languish while more powerful actually allows you to add a second color, which actually increases diversity as opposed to limiting it. It's also a non-bo with Thalia, so you might need to re-work that list. Sinkhole didn't make it in last time, and is currently sold out at MTGO traders. If it's not available when rotation happens, then it will probably not rotate in, so let's wait before panicking. Vindicate would be awesome, but Anguished Unmaking is already a card, so again it's an increase in power level, but It's not unbeatable either. Hymn and Vindicate being in the format might make redirect playable.
I think Gumgod has a point about Vindicate/Anguished Unmaking. In terms of Sinkhole, it gives the deck a cheaper LD spell that will increase its disruption consistency (huge difference between 2 mana LD, and Choking Sands/Icequake which are already legal). If it does rotate in, I would argue that we should either (1) ban Sinkhole or Hymn to Tourach, or (2) unban Invigorate. My reasoning for this is Invigorate was banned on the assumption it would be too powerful, if this is a fine argument to make then the Hymn to Tourach deck should have a pre-emptive ban if Sinkhole rotates in.
I think Gumgod has a point about Vindicate/Anguished Unmaking. In terms of Sinkhole, it gives the deck a cheaper LD spell that will increase its disruption consistency (huge difference between 2 mana LD, and Choking Sands/Icequake which are already legal). If it does rotate in, I would argue that we should either (1) ban Sinkhole or Hymn to Tourach, or (2) unban Invigorate. My reasoning for this is Invigorate was banned on the assumption it would be too powerful, if this is a fine argument to make then the Hymn to Tourach deck should have a pre-emptive ban if Sinkhole rotates in.
This is precisely why I think it's dangerous to ban cards like invigorate BEFORE they become a problem. We shouldn't be banning before it even rotates into the format and people have a chance to play it. My two cents.
Gumgod: I assembled UG and monoG decks before the ban and tested them. Both decks could kill way too consistently on turn 2 with protection. There's a huge difference between loosing a game and getting set back either by lands or cards in hand.
Sure it's consistent and a good deck, but there's tons of answers, Swords to Plowshares, condemn, Sudden Shock, Geth's Verdict, Vendetta, Sudden Death, Vapor snag into propaganda or mana leak, even a Chain lightning on your turn can cause the infect player to burn through pump spells. I'm not convinced that this would be better than existing decks. Even Hymn to tourach and duress help survive the early turns. I'm not saying that I want to play against infect, but I think it's an appropriate power level. Generally speaking if you can deal with the initial threat from an infect deck you gain a lot of time as their deck is a careful balance of creatures and pump and they often get screwed if their first creature is taken out.
I'd also like to see a format where Psychic Purge is played. (deal one damage to target glistener elf, deal 5 damage to target hymn player. It's a terrible card, but I'd just like to do that to someone one time...). We also have Gut Shot :P.
Gumgod: I assembled UG and monoG decks before the ban and tested them. Both decks could kill way too consistently on turn 2 with protection. There's a huge difference between loosing a game and getting set back either by lands or cards in hand.
For the players that ask for a hymn ban, I need to ask you something. Looking at the decks from previous events, and specifically at last night top 2 decks, all of their cards have been available for such a long time. The deck was being played when I started playing heirloom and since then it lost Desecration Demon (while it's bugged) and Lashwrithe (for some time). Nothing was added to the deck, so why was it ok to play back then and now it's ban-worthy?
Gumgod: I assembled UG and monoG decks before the ban and tested them. Both decks could kill way too consistently on turn 2 with protection. There's a huge difference between loosing a game and getting set back either by lands or cards in hand.
For the players that ask for a hymn ban, I need to ask you something. Looking at the decks from previous events, and specifically at last night top 2 decks, all of their cards have been available for such a long time. The deck was being played when I started playing heirloom and since then it lost Desecration Demon (while it's bugged) and Lashwrithe (for some time). Nothing was added to the deck, so why was it ok to play back then and now it's ban-worthy?
To Gum. The problem wasn't a turn 2 kill ceph can turn 2 kill the problem was you could turn 2 kill WITH a Counterspell backup... You only needed 1 mana to berserk after invig while having 1 mana to hold open a Counterspell. I tested the deck too before it rotated in and my verson ran 9x Counterspells Maindecks with an average Goldfish kill of turn 2.5 (50% of that time with counterspell up)
To TLR the problem Ive had with hymn is playing against a deck with hymn you either have to empty your hand godly fast like a Mono red or just lose to it alot of the time.... Like there would be alot more combo decks that would be viable without hymn (for better or worse on that)
As to banning it I only feel a ban is worthy if Sinkhole comes in..
Just like I feel that Mono Red should get something banned if Fireblast rotates back in..
There is also a good chance we get Bloodbraid elf back So zoo and such could come back to even stuff out so IDK but sinkhole should 100% be banned if it somehow becomes set to rotate in... and hymn again I think should be watched because too many decks are just unplayable because turn 2 hymn you lose. And with painlands coming in Jund/Azban/ect... can now stetch their mana...
Like even Cephalid Might need to get looked at being banned because it gets alot more consistent with a better mana base like the new aether land. Or maybe just every deck gets its power level raised by pain lands and everything evens itself out who knows we will see....
To Gum. The problem wasn't a turn 2 kill ceph can turn 2 kill the problem was you could turn 2 kill WITH a Counterspell backup... You only needed 1 mana to berserk after invig while having 1 mana to hold open a Counterspell. I tested the deck too before it rotated in and my verson ran 9x Counterspells Maindecks with an average Goldfish kill of turn 2.5 (50% of that time with counterspell up)
You don't just need a berserk, you need a creature (There's only one that costs 1 mana). So your opener needs to be a Glistener Elf, an Invigorate a Berserk and a counterspell (Spell pierce or Dispel). That's four cards, plus two lands that make appropriate mana AND enter untapped. That sounds like a god hand to me.
I was also editing my earlier post because I always end up editing my posts.
To Gum. The problem wasn't a turn 2 kill ceph can turn 2 kill the problem was you could turn 2 kill WITH a Counterspell backup... You only needed 1 mana to berserk after invig while having 1 mana to hold open a Counterspell. I tested the deck too before it rotated in and my verson ran 9x Counterspells Maindecks with an average Goldfish kill of turn 2.5 (50% of that time with counterspell up)
You don't just need a berserk, you need a creature (There's only one that costs 1 mana). So your opener needs to be a Glistener Elf, an Invigorate a Berserk and a counterspell (Spell pierce or Dispel). That's four cards, plus two lands that make appropriate mana AND enter untapped. That sounds like a god hand to me.
in a format like this were CIPT lands are something that alot of people run due to how bad our mana bases are... no deck should be able to win on turn 2. I'm even for ceph being banned once painlands come in and the deck gets a half turn faster FWIW.....
Turn 1 Forest glisterner
turn 1 opp CIPT land
Turn 2 Invig/Might Berserk gg?
yeah sounds really fun for player B for a PRE event...
Infect is a deck you aggressively Mulligan too. So you talk about needing 4 cards.. you run 16 lands and 4-8x 1 mana draw spells on top of it. You may not have a turn 2 kill every time but 90% of the time you will have atleast a turn 3 kill in hand. and as soon as you know your opponent cant beat you on turn 2-3 you can slow roll it with your counterspells and just remove any chance of losing. Like If i tested Infect vs MBC or Jund I could win 90% EZ. its just not being dumb and knowing what decks you need to race turn 2-3 and knowing what decks you can just sit back and then go yeah ill drop this ill counter that ill counter that and GG.
The thing that did change from the old hymn decks, is you went and banned all the more expensive costing value gaining cards, like Fact of Fiction, Misthollow griffin, Decree of Justice, Counterspell. This let the cheapest and most efficient form of card advantage card left to prey upon other things. I'm still not sure though why the call for bans before unbans. Even if the black deck loses hymn, its getting a host of better cards, and still has wrench mind, gerrards verdict, blightning, ravens crime, and a host of replaceable similar effects that will empty a hand and still leave an opponent feeling like they had nothing but the top of the deck to work with.
The increase in hymn frequency is a symptom of cant beat it, join it. 3 of top 4 in yesterdays event..
Congratulations to my bud brempf55 for first PRE victory, great showing.
You actually need five or potentially six specific cards, two need to be lands, one needs to be glistener elf, one needs to be berserk, you either need Invigorate + counterspell, or all in you can use groundswell or might of old krosa, but that means you need two green sources. Yet you're only running 16 lands. While on the topic of lands, one of those first lands has to be a forest if you want to use the alternate casting cost of Invigorate, so double pain land or pain land + hinterland harbor potentially cuts you off from the turn two kill or at least the "counterspell backup" of a turn 2 kill. Yes some decks will just lose to infect, that happens in modern and legacy too, but infect is still not the best deck. I don't think monoblack control is one of the decks that will auto lose. I also don't think jund would either. It really depends on how much removal/disruption they have.
Gumgod: considering you have access to free mana pump spells, damage is not an option on how to kill the creature. Condemn they already have counterspell/vines backup. So either you have StP and plains in your opener or you are in really bad shape.
I mentioned only three damage spells. Sudden shock, which has split second, Chain lightning which you can play turn one, and Gut Shot which you can play on the infect players end of turn after they summon the 1/1. If they use an invigorate to save the creature, it's far less likely that they still have a turn 2 kill in hand, which gives you more time to deal with the creature. They also MUST have the invigorate or mana to pump/counter. Mutagenic Growth is not in the format at the moment. Any pump you can get them to play when they are not attacking is pump they don't have to kill you with. Condemn is probably the worst answer, but it's potentially good enough if it's timed right.
Infect is a deck you aggressively Mulligan too. So you talk about needing 4 cards.. you run 16 lands and 4-8x 1 mana draw spells on top of it. You may not have a turn 2 kill every time but 90% of the time you will have atleast a turn 3 kill in hand. and as soon as you know your opponent cant beat you on turn 2-3 you can slow roll it with your counterspells and just remove any chance of losing. Like If i tested Infect vs MBC or Jund I could win 90% EZ. its just not being dumb and knowing what decks you need to race turn 2-3 and knowing what decks you can just sit back and then go yeah ill drop this ill counter that ill counter that and GG.
If we're not focused on the turn 2 kill then we are talking about an interactive deck (counterspells are interactive) that rewards you for being good at playing it. I still don't see the need for the ban.
What we need is for someone to build a deck with Eternal Scourge and see if they can break it.
Ill try to find the original list and see if thats the way, or if something more insidious is in store. Using Manipulate Fate to RFG them to get 3 free 3/3 creatures into a zone you can play them from does seem sweet on the surface.
Tried breaking Hymn this previous week, but the zone which hymn cannot battle is the top of the deck. TLR was able to set up the combo just manipulating his top cards and playing them as they came. Each other competitor had almost no resources or a game plan after turn 3.
and sorry I missed that commander request. I have a habit of gaming until the last minute, and sometimes when I leave for my shift I forget to close the MTGO client. Ill be sure to get a nice team commander deck ready for the next time you need an extra competitor.
On another note, can I recommend we ban the card TIDEHOLLOW SCULLER until Wizards fix the known bug which currently exists with the card (the exiled card often doesn't get returned to the player's hand when it dies). This bug doesn't always occur, but it still often occurs and Wizards knows that this bug still exists. In a sanctioned tournament, the problem can be rectified by filing a reimbursement report, however this option of course doesn't exist in Classic Heirloom. Until this bug is fixed, the card is WAY too powerful (It is currently Thoughtseize on a 2/2 beatstick without the need to pay 2 life!).
The same applies to DESECRATION DEMON because that card is played in our format, and yet the known bug still exists (opponent can't tap it down by sacrificing creatures).
I have double-checked today, and both these bugs are still not fixed.
Thanks.
As far as Desecration Demon my opponents were able to tap mine during cube drafts at various points this week.
Was there any situation regarding the tidehollow which trigger this event or is it a random number type of event.
thanks
littlefield
Both bugs occur some of the time. I doubt that anyone knows (even Wizards staff) the exact percentage of how often each bug occurs, or the exact circumstances which trigger it. From my experience, the bugs seems to occur in the minority of cases (I'd guess 15% of the time, roughly). The Tidehollow bug happened to me in the Modern Inquisition tournament 2 days ago, so I sent a message to the Orcs in the Support chat to ask them about it, and they told me that they are aware that the bug still exists.
Also with the recent price drops, I cannot wait to add Sinkhole to the mix, the black decks were lacking the "tools" to compete before but the last and coming rotation should usher in the long black winter.
I have been trying to scour over the buglist on mtgo, and it only depresses me. So many issues and it seems to only grow more bugs with each scheduled update.
I will say that even playing multiple of these events at once, I have never had an issue with slow play, and normally one of the first matches completed. I have also played against several players who are routinely 10 plus minutes behind on the clock in every match. Some players even peculiarly act only when others of the same group arent acting, as if one person is taking the turns, and then moving match to match. This was very apparent when during a match earlier in the week i was watching 3 other matches. When my opponent and 2 of the other players all disconnected and relogged into the games at the same time. But now we are saying that is some wall of text, yep thats good coverup guy.
Hymn needs to be banned Not because of what we currently have but because of what we may have cycling in. If Vindicate Sinkhole Caves Of kolias and Languish all come in I literally just do not want to play... I have a rough draft of the deck together and it would just not be fun to play against and Would complete just remove creature decks from being viable.
Turn 1 STP
Turn 2 Sinkhole/Smallpox/Hymn
Turn 3 Vindicate/Sinkhole/Smallpox/Hymn
The deck would just destroy this format. Combo would have almost no chance against it stripping your hand/killing your lands and Agro decks would just flop.
Rough Outline of the deck would be like
4x smallpox
4x STP
4x sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x sign in blood
2-4x languish
4x Thalia (main or sb)
I'd love to play that deck. I was already told that I was playing an "unfun" deck for playing Braids and Pack Rats. So obviously people have different ideas of fun. Mutilate is already in the format. Languish while more powerful actually allows you to add a second color, which actually increases diversity as opposed to limiting it. It's also a non-bo with Thalia, so you might need to re-work that list. Sinkhole didn't make it in last time, and is currently sold out at MTGO traders. If it's not available when rotation happens, then it will probably not rotate in, so let's wait before panicking. Vindicate would be awesome, but Anguished Unmaking is already a card, so again it's an increase in power level, but It's not unbeatable either. Hymn and Vindicate being in the format might make redirect playable.
This is precisely why I think it's dangerous to ban cards like invigorate BEFORE they become a problem. We shouldn't be banning before it even rotates into the format and people have a chance to play it. My two cents.
Sure it's consistent and a good deck, but there's tons of answers, Swords to Plowshares, condemn, Sudden Shock, Geth's Verdict, Vendetta, Sudden Death, Vapor snag into propaganda or mana leak, even a Chain lightning on your turn can cause the infect player to burn through pump spells. I'm not convinced that this would be better than existing decks. Even Hymn to tourach and duress help survive the early turns. I'm not saying that I want to play against infect, but I think it's an appropriate power level. Generally speaking if you can deal with the initial threat from an infect deck you gain a lot of time as their deck is a careful balance of creatures and pump and they often get screwed if their first creature is taken out.
There are several good cards missing from the legacy version that are not trivial (Inkmoth nexus, Noble Hierarch, Pendelhaven, Mutagenic Growth).
I'd also like to see a format where Psychic Purge is played.
To Gum. The problem wasn't a turn 2 kill ceph can turn 2 kill the problem was you could turn 2 kill WITH a Counterspell backup... You only needed 1 mana to berserk after invig while having 1 mana to hold open a Counterspell. I tested the deck too before it rotated in and my verson ran 9x Counterspells Maindecks with an average Goldfish kill of turn 2.5 (50% of that time with counterspell up)
To TLR the problem Ive had with hymn is playing against a deck with hymn you either have to empty your hand godly fast like a Mono red or just lose to it alot of the time.... Like there would be alot more combo decks that would be viable without hymn (for better or worse on that)
As to banning it I only feel a ban is worthy if Sinkhole comes in..
Just like I feel that Mono Red should get something banned if Fireblast rotates back in..
There is also a good chance we get Bloodbraid elf back So zoo and such could come back to even stuff out so IDK but sinkhole should 100% be banned if it somehow becomes set to rotate in... and hymn again I think should be watched because too many decks are just unplayable because turn 2 hymn you lose. And with painlands coming in Jund/Azban/ect... can now stetch their mana...
Like even Cephalid Might need to get looked at being banned because it gets alot more consistent with a better mana base like the new aether land. Or maybe just every deck gets its power level raised by pain lands and everything evens itself out who knows we will see....
You don't just need a berserk, you need a creature (There's only one that costs 1 mana). So your opener needs to be a Glistener Elf, an Invigorate a Berserk and a counterspell (Spell pierce or Dispel). That's four cards, plus two lands that make appropriate mana AND enter untapped. That sounds like a god hand to me.
I was also editing my earlier post because I always end up editing my posts.
in a format like this were CIPT lands are something that alot of people run due to how bad our mana bases are... no deck should be able to win on turn 2. I'm even for ceph being banned once painlands come in and the deck gets a half turn faster FWIW.....
Turn 1 Forest glisterner
turn 1 opp CIPT land
Turn 2 Invig/Might Berserk gg?
yeah sounds really fun for player B for a PRE event...
Infect is a deck you aggressively Mulligan too. So you talk about needing 4 cards.. you run 16 lands and 4-8x 1 mana draw spells on top of it. You may not have a turn 2 kill every time but 90% of the time you will have atleast a turn 3 kill in hand. and as soon as you know your opponent cant beat you on turn 2-3 you can slow roll it with your counterspells and just remove any chance of losing. Like If i tested Infect vs MBC or Jund I could win 90% EZ. its just not being dumb and knowing what decks you need to race turn 2-3 and knowing what decks you can just sit back and then go yeah ill drop this ill counter that ill counter that and GG.
The increase in hymn frequency is a symptom of cant beat it, join it. 3 of top 4 in yesterdays event..
Congratulations to my bud brempf55 for first PRE victory, great showing.
edit:
I mentioned only three damage spells. Sudden shock, which has split second, Chain lightning which you can play turn one, and Gut Shot which you can play on the infect players end of turn after they summon the 1/1. If they use an invigorate to save the creature, it's far less likely that they still have a turn 2 kill in hand, which gives you more time to deal with the creature. They also MUST have the invigorate or mana to pump/counter. Mutagenic Growth is not in the format at the moment. Any pump you can get them to play when they are not attacking is pump they don't have to kill you with. Condemn is probably the worst answer, but it's potentially good enough if it's timed right.
edit 2:
If we're not focused on the turn 2 kill then we are talking about an interactive deck (counterspells are interactive) that rewards you for being good at playing it. I still don't see the need for the ban.