Alright so my opponent hits a turn 4 Abyssal Persecutor. My early plays are vanilla green creatures so I can't stop the Persecutor from putting me below 0. At this stage, what is the optimal game plan? Should I just keep making 7-drops hoping I hit Platinum Angel? Or is there some better plan?
My first thought was to try to overwhelm him with fatties, since he had been using more cards earlier in the game than I. He starts cranking out an 8-drop a turn for the rest of the game, presumably trying to make a wall of blockers while hoping to hit some form of removal like Ashen Rider, etc. My first few fatties end up being absolute garbage and it's clear I can't keep up at the lower ccs, so I play out my land drops all the way to 12. I crank out a few 12-drops (including multiple Blightsteel Colossus). I have pipe dreams of smashing through with lethal poison in one fell swoop since I can make bigger guys per turn than he can. But he hits Akroma, letting him swing in the air for a significant amount of vigilance each turn, dropping me below -50. Thanks to Patron of the untapping Forests, I can make 15-drops so I crank out an Autochton Wurm and finally an Emrakul to block the Akroma. But by this point he has Avacyn and can keep swinging at me in the air. He hits decent fatties each turn while I hit some Eldrazi, which are duds for me. Although he gets boned on a few Elder Dragons that die on upkeep, for the most part the toughness of his guys is matching the power that I can generate and he has more creatures than me, especially after subtracting the Eldrazi duds that can't attack.
Now at this stage, what is the optimal strategy?
I chose to abandon the 12-drop plan. I figured that he would eventually hit removal and needed to find a way to live quickly. So I started generating 7-drops each turn, hoping for a blind Platinum Angel, but I end up getting a ton of chaff and nothing remotely good. Would it have been better to keep on the 12-drop plan and just hope he hit enough guys with upkeeps that my total power would eventually overpower his total defense? Was there some other optimal cc that I should have been shooting for?
He hits Bloodfire Colossus, which is lulz since Avacyn, Angel of Hope stops that from letting him kill his own Persecutor. He hits a second Avacyn, which legend rules the other for lulz, but thanks to the new rules stays alive so he still cannot Bloodfire. He hits Stormtide Leviathan eventually, nullifying all my ground Blightsteels and friends. Finally he hits Kederekt Leviathan. In response, I turn my Mossbridge Troll into a 205/205 or something like that, way bigger than the butts he had, but I had no way to give it trample (to bust through) or Islandwalk/Flying to actually attack in the first place.
What cc do you think is the best to beat Persecutor and being way below 0 life?
I would not hover on 7 like that. Making 7s gives us just as much chance of Phage as we'd have chances of hitting Platinum Angel.
I'd actually make 8s & look for Platinum Emperion to not die when the Persecutor does or Craterhoof Behemoth to bust through & win the game. You have more outs available to you at 8 than at 7.
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Platinum Emperion doesn't save you from dying if you're already below 0 before you get to 8 mana.
My first 8cc was the epic weakness of Scaled Wurm, which I guess isn't an actual dud like Akron, but it's pretty vanilla and doesn't help. I also hit Patron of the Orochi (which let me ramp to 15) and 1 other mediocre 8-drop (I think an Elder Dragon I couldn't keep). I guess making more 8-drops is value. I hit a lot of weak cards at 7. But I don't see how me generating 1 8 drop a turn and him generating 1 8 drop a turn is going to lead to be winning when
a) he already has more creatures than me
b) every Eldrazi is a dud instead of an awesome
c) I HAVE to kill him in one attack, whereas he just needs to hit a single removal spell to win
Seems like if we do the same thing when he has a huge advantage, he's more likely to profit. Leaves it up to complete lucksacking.
I had up to 15 mana per turn. Should I have aimed higher per turn? Like 9, 10, 12? He couldn't have matched my higher drops, most he could do was 8cc per turn. Or am I just better off hoping to get lucky off 8s?
The main issue is that if you attack (before he had Avacyn) you would tie on damage resolution (state based effects means the Abyssal is dead and therefore your opponent can win the game, if at the same state based check you are both at 0 or less it is a tie. I have been in this position before). So you have to find a way to get damage through without him being able to block.
I'm at work so I cannot answer conclusively but I suspect the best choice would have been 10s. It has the best odds I think:
14 10 cost creatures, 2 of which are the narrow type you need, Deep-Sea Kraken and Progenitus
That means a roughly 14.6% chance of something that can win the game.
8's could have been an okay choice as well but not as strong. You'd have about a 4-5% by my calculation with 8's. You'd have Stormtide Leviathan, Tidal Kraken, Deathcoil Wurm, Wolf Pack, and Lorthos (I cannot remember how to spell it, the guy that taps down 8 permanents).
I do not know 7's well enough to even give a fair estimate. However both 7 and 8 give you a chance to auto lose (Phage the Untouchable and Keredkt Leviathan respectively) whereas 10 has no auto loss. So really I think 10 is best (which is extremely rare as 10 is generally rather bad).
Interestingly, your opponent probably should have been trying for 9's. They should have dropped 6 mountains and gone to 9 to give a ~10% chance of hitting an answer (Crimson Hellkite, Fire Dragon, and Kuro, Pitlord)
If you have Vorinclex and need a flying blocker (assuming you are playing full domain) you should do 16 and get Draco. He's 9/9. He can't block Banefire but he does stop Avacyn and Akroma.
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My first thought was to try to overwhelm him with fatties, since he had been using more cards earlier in the game than I. He starts cranking out an 8-drop a turn for the rest of the game, presumably trying to make a wall of blockers while hoping to hit some form of removal like Ashen Rider, etc. My first few fatties end up being absolute garbage and it's clear I can't keep up at the lower ccs, so I play out my land drops all the way to 12. I crank out a few 12-drops (including multiple Blightsteel Colossus). I have pipe dreams of smashing through with lethal poison in one fell swoop since I can make bigger guys per turn than he can. But he hits Akroma, letting him swing in the air for a significant amount of vigilance each turn, dropping me below -50. Thanks to Patron of the untapping Forests, I can make 15-drops so I crank out an Autochton Wurm and finally an Emrakul to block the Akroma. But by this point he has Avacyn and can keep swinging at me in the air. He hits decent fatties each turn while I hit some Eldrazi, which are duds for me. Although he gets boned on a few Elder Dragons that die on upkeep, for the most part the toughness of his guys is matching the power that I can generate and he has more creatures than me, especially after subtracting the Eldrazi duds that can't attack.
Now at this stage, what is the optimal strategy?
I chose to abandon the 12-drop plan. I figured that he would eventually hit removal and needed to find a way to live quickly. So I started generating 7-drops each turn, hoping for a blind Platinum Angel, but I end up getting a ton of chaff and nothing remotely good. Would it have been better to keep on the 12-drop plan and just hope he hit enough guys with upkeeps that my total power would eventually overpower his total defense? Was there some other optimal cc that I should have been shooting for?
He hits Bloodfire Colossus, which is lulz since Avacyn, Angel of Hope stops that from letting him kill his own Persecutor. He hits a second Avacyn, which legend rules the other for lulz, but thanks to the new rules stays alive so he still cannot Bloodfire. He hits Stormtide Leviathan eventually, nullifying all my ground Blightsteels and friends. Finally he hits Kederekt Leviathan. In response, I turn my Mossbridge Troll into a 205/205 or something like that, way bigger than the butts he had, but I had no way to give it trample (to bust through) or Islandwalk/Flying to actually attack in the first place.
What cc do you think is the best to beat Persecutor and being way below 0 life?
I'd actually make 8s & look for Platinum Emperion to not die when the Persecutor does or Craterhoof Behemoth to bust through & win the game. You have more outs available to you at 8 than at 7.
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540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyMy first 8cc was the epic weakness of Scaled Wurm, which I guess isn't an actual dud like Akron, but it's pretty vanilla and doesn't help. I also hit Patron of the Orochi (which let me ramp to 15) and 1 other mediocre 8-drop (I think an Elder Dragon I couldn't keep). I guess making more 8-drops is value. I hit a lot of weak cards at 7. But I don't see how me generating 1 8 drop a turn and him generating 1 8 drop a turn is going to lead to be winning when
a) he already has more creatures than me
b) every Eldrazi is a dud instead of an awesome
c) I HAVE to kill him in one attack, whereas he just needs to hit a single removal spell to win
Seems like if we do the same thing when he has a huge advantage, he's more likely to profit. Leaves it up to complete lucksacking.
I had up to 15 mana per turn. Should I have aimed higher per turn? Like 9, 10, 12? He couldn't have matched my higher drops, most he could do was 8cc per turn. Or am I just better off hoping to get lucky off 8s?
Thanks for input guys!
I'm at work so I cannot answer conclusively but I suspect the best choice would have been 10s. It has the best odds I think:
14 10 cost creatures, 2 of which are the narrow type you need, Deep-Sea Kraken and Progenitus
That means a roughly 14.6% chance of something that can win the game.
8's could have been an okay choice as well but not as strong. You'd have about a 4-5% by my calculation with 8's. You'd have Stormtide Leviathan, Tidal Kraken, Deathcoil Wurm, Wolf Pack, and Lorthos (I cannot remember how to spell it, the guy that taps down 8 permanents).
I do not know 7's well enough to even give a fair estimate. However both 7 and 8 give you a chance to auto lose (Phage the Untouchable and Keredkt Leviathan respectively) whereas 10 has no auto loss. So really I think 10 is best (which is extremely rare as 10 is generally rather bad).
Interestingly, your opponent probably should have been trying for 9's. They should have dropped 6 mountains and gone to 9 to give a ~10% chance of hitting an answer (Crimson Hellkite, Fire Dragon, and Kuro, Pitlord)
EDIT: Fixed some links and looked into it further. 7's aren't particularly good. Even if you get a Platium Angel you still don't win. Arbiter of Knollridge would sort of help. Blood Tyrant would also work, albeit very slowly. Iridescent Angel would work. Maybe Scrapdiver Serpent. Shivan Hellkite. Stalking Vengeance. Stone-Tongue Basilisk. Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts. Thorn Elemental. Those are the outs, only 7 for sure outs from 150-200 creatures (I don't recall the number off the top of my head). There are also 4 cards that would be an instant loss, assuming your opponent plays right. So 10 is definitely the choice.
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