As an old TES player (Slithermuse days), this deck intrigues me.
Having read through the thread, here's a question - is there value to using 4 Fathom Seer as Gushes 5-8? Would this increase the T4 consistency at all? I realize that it does allow for the opponent to have their creature removal 'turned on' so to speak, but that might be negated by having 8 Gushes in the deck to go off on turn 4 more consistently. Thoughts on this?
It is an option. I think this deck needs a couple of things to occur before it can become a serious contender. One of them is that merchant scroll needs to be introduced to the format. You talked about this deck wanting gush 5-8 and I think scroll can do this. That card does so many things for this deck. It gets Gush, but also get winds / brainstorm / gigadrowse / accumulated knowledge. Not to mention it is a shuffle effect for BS. I think this might be the best solution to what you are suggesting.
In terms of fathom seer, I have not tried that. It is an interesting card though. 3 mana for a gush effect is not terrible. I'm not sure what to cut for it, but it is worth experimenting. This deck has not fully been explored, so feel free to try it out.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
EDIT: For the long term health and viability of the format, I think it's mandatory that the paper Pauper follows the card pool/ban list from the MTGO version. The online version is the only sanctioned one by wizards where an appropriate ban list is run by them. Every shop/tournament organizer that deviates from this generates some kind of house rules (like saying "in our modern tournaments we play no-banned-list-modern") and weakens the format by working against its unification.
I don't think the excludes should be there, they could probably be something else. However, I have liked that they can randomly blow people out, though maybe they could be more cantrips or something else. I've liked cutting rite of flame and lotus petal for more lands and augurs. I think having more staying power was something the deck needed.
I'm just wondering if this deck really has a chance at an organized pauper event. I really love the deck and in limited testing it has performed quite well and consistently, does anyone have any experience with it as a successful pseudo-competitive deck?
I'm just wondering if this deck really has a chance at an organized pauper event. I really love the deck and in limited testing it has performed quite well and consistently, does anyone have any experience with it as a successful pseudo-competitive deck?
thanks in advance
Pyro
Hi Pyro. I have played this deck on and off for about 3 years now. In terms of it being competitive, I would say it is on the lower / medium side of things. If all you care about is winning in pauper, I would suggest trying tron, delver, or boros variants in pauper. If you really like storm / high tide / spell based combo decks, than this is the archetype for you in pauper. The current list I have is shown here:
In terms of my own success, I have been able to 3-2 and 4-1 multiple times in friendly pauper leagues with the deck. I have yet to 5-0 sadly. With the recent addition of competitive leagues, I have currently entered one and am 3-0. With the recent addition of Foil into the format, the deck may have to be adjusted to deal with that in the main board. Past that, I think the deck is in reasonable shape overall.
Is there any particular reason for the snow-covered lands over regular basics?
jlhansen
The only reason is to bluff UR delver, which is a deck I frequently play online. Past that, they don't serve a ton of benefits, and are not needed for the deck to function. If you like the art or think they are cool for style points, feel free to use them. Otherwise, basic lands with the art of your choice will work just fine.
In a non-psychological vacuum, the snow-covered lands are even strictly inferior since there's a non-zero chance you'll run into Thermokarst or Icequake. But it's a competitive of edge case vs. edge case.
On the other hand, last month I was playing Burn vs. Izzet Blitz with snow-covered lands. The first game he was so mana-screwed he died quickly, only playing a Snow-Covered Island, Delver of Secrets, and some cantrips. I *did* think he was playing Izzet Delver and (incorrectly) sideboarded in Electrickery for the 2nd game. So there's at least one real world example of the "snow-covered bluff" actually working.
This is the user previously known as vinestorm. Haven't been playing the deck that much, but picked it up with the printing of Clear the Mind . The card is an amazing alternative to conjurer's bauble and initial testing suggests that it makes vinestorm significantly better. Most notably, you can cast clear the mind after you initial combo to get the lands back into your deck, which allows you to combo a second time for huge amounts. This second combo almost guarantees a kill if you get it off, and occurs a lot more than one might expect.
By the way, congratulations on the 5-0 Raptor, that is seriously awesome!
Current list. Goldfishing extremely well. To play this version, think of it as a gush and inner fire combo deck, not as a tolarian and vines deck. In my hundreds (thousands?) of hours goldfishing this deck, this version is by far the best.
Current list. Goldfishing extremely well. To play this version, think of it as a gush and inner fire combo deck, not as a tolarian and vines deck. In my hundreds (thousands?) of hours goldfishing this deck, this version is by far the best.
It seems fine for the most part. I do agree that this is more of a gush / inner fire deck than anything. Part of me even feels like this deck is more closely related to high tide than storm because of that. The only thing I might consider is -1 sphere + 1 giga.
Current list. Goldfishing extremely well. To play this version, think of it as a gush and inner fire combo deck, not as a tolarian and vines deck. In my hundreds (thousands?) of hours goldfishing this deck, this version is by far the best.
It seems fine for the most part. I do agree that this is more of a gush / inner fire deck than anything. Part of me even feels like this deck is more closely related to high tide than storm because of that. The only thing I might consider is -1 sphere + 1 giga.
Raptor, you're correct in that the deck is more like high tide than storm. The central thing that makes my build more like a engine combo deck and less like a storm deck is that it has exactly one way to go off in most situations: inner fire and gush. The deck has a very goldfishing combo success rate if you hit these two cards. However, if you do not hit these two cards at the start of your combo turn, you will lose because you can never dip below 4 mana. The question at hand is whether we ought to add more non-inner fire mana sources like lotus petals, rite of flames, and seething songs. I currently think that the answer is that we should not, because this dilutes our deck too much which leads to a lower combo success rate.
I was inspired by Matt Nass's recent articles on CFB surrounding how to build combo, so I built a version using pyrite spellbomb loops as the wincon. There are several benefits of this. First, these loops allow us to do infinite damage from a coloured source. Second, cycling our wincon instead of having it sit in our hand is important. Third, having multiple sources for graveyard recursion allows us to use our anti-disruption spells (like arcane denial) multiple times.
I'm currently trying to figure three things. First, should we add a split of arcane denial and gigadroswse? Second, should we add a seething song so we can dip to 3 mana without fizzling.
As for the sideboard question, this is something i'm still trying to figure out. There are obvious inclusions like hydroblast for burn and RDW, pieces of the puzzle or deep analysis for grindy matchups like MBC, conjurer's bauble for gy hate, and gigadrowse for blue based control. The central problem is whether or not we dedicate slots to ub delver, or if we just accept the matchup as not winnable. My current plan involves using Circle of Protection: Blue as a way to beat their blue creatures, and holding arcane denials for their gurmags. However, this has not been working that well.
Anyways, I have about 7 million things this semester that I have to finish, so I probably won't be doing another one of these rambling posts for a while. Good luck to everyone out there playing this beautiful and hellish deck.
This new card Burning Prophet could be very good for the deck. The scry effect is obviously very powerful, and it provides a primary or backup win con that is fast and demands an answer. Running this with gigadrowse to tap down blockers could be an interesting line of attack. Will be curious to see how it ends up playing out.
This new card Burning Prophet could be very good for the deck. The scry effect is obviously very powerful, and it provides a primary or backup win con that is fast and demands an answer. Running this with gigadrowse to tap down blockers could be an interesting line of attack. Will be curious to see how it ends up playing out.
That card looks really interesting. I'm also interested to try out spellgorger weird.
Stream of Thought (the new Modern Horzons card) can be used as a wincon and as a part of the looping engine. Interesting potential, but it does not cantrip which might make it worse then running Clear the Mind + Bauble and Though Scour/spellbomb.
With the banning of gush this deck is no longer remotely viable. It was a fun ride while it lasted. At least it died as a 5-0 deck hehe. Thanks for all who have participated in the deck over the years. It has been a fun ride, but I don't see this deck recovering from a gush banning. I'll catch you all later on some new pauper decks. RIP VineStorm.
I do think that some of the engines that the deck brought light to can be salvaged and slotted into other combo decks.
But yah, vinestorm qua vinestorm is almost certainly toast. Big thanks to everyone who has worked on vinestorm. Has been a lot of fun. Shout out to Raptor for the 5-0, massive props for that.
Let's keep trying to make a viable combo deck in this format!
I'm going to keep posting decklists, just in case someone else insane is still working on this deck.
The goal with the current list is to loop through our deck using clear the mind and stream of thought in order to create a massive surplus of mana and afterwards use that mana to cast a replicated stream of thought to mill out our opponent in one go.
The choices in the current list are very speculative. I'm not sure if we should play rite over petal. I'm not sure if we should play 4 ideas unbound, or if we should try to work in accumulated knowledge. The land count should maybe be +1 or +2. Basically everything is up in the air, because our card economy has completely changed with the banning of gush and probe.
Anyways, hope everyone reading this has a lovely day.
It is an option. I think this deck needs a couple of things to occur before it can become a serious contender. One of them is that merchant scroll needs to be introduced to the format. You talked about this deck wanting gush 5-8 and I think scroll can do this. That card does so many things for this deck. It gets Gush, but also get winds / brainstorm / gigadrowse / accumulated knowledge. Not to mention it is a shuffle effect for BS. I think this might be the best solution to what you are suggesting.
In terms of fathom seer, I have not tried that. It is an interesting card though. 3 mana for a gush effect is not terrible. I'm not sure what to cut for it, but it is worth experimenting. This deck has not fully been explored, so feel free to try it out.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
High Tide was never printed as a common online, so it's not legal to play in sanctioned Pauper events.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/formats/pauper
EDIT: For the long term health and viability of the format, I think it's mandatory that the paper Pauper follows the card pool/ban list from the MTGO version. The online version is the only sanctioned one by wizards where an appropriate ban list is run by them. Every shop/tournament organizer that deviates from this generates some kind of house rules (like saying "in our modern tournaments we play no-banned-list-modern") and weakens the format by working against its unification.
Here's a link explaining the differences between paper and online Pauper: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/paper-pauper-and-peasant/662888-differences-between-mtgo-and-paper As mentioned above, for the sake of a growing format, I suggest everyone to stick to the MTGO cards and rules.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show
Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207309
12 Snow-Covered Island
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Izzet Boilerworks
2 Ash Barrens
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
Spells[34]
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Inner Fire
4 Manamorphose
4 Gush
3 Sprouting Vines
3 Tolarian Winds
2 Exclude
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Gigadrowse
1 Rolling Thunder
4 Augur of Bolas
Artifacts [1]
1 Conjurer's Bauble
2 Dispel
2 Hydroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
1 swirling Sandstorm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Electrickery
2 Flame Slash
1 Flaring Pain
1 Curfew
I don't think the excludes should be there, they could probably be something else. However, I have liked that they can randomly blow people out, though maybe they could be more cantrips or something else. I've liked cutting rite of flame and lotus petal for more lands and augurs. I think having more staying power was something the deck needed.
12 Snow-Covered Island
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Izzet Boilerworks
2 Ash Barrens
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
Card Advantage [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Gush
3 Preordain
3 Augur of Bolas
4 Inner Fire
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
Combo [11]
3 Sprouting Vines
3 Tolarian Winds
3 Gigadrowse
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Conjurer's Bauble
2 Dispel
2 Hydroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
1 swirling Sandstorm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Electrickery
2 Skred
1 Flaring Pain
1 Curfew
Feels a bit better. I think cutting rite of flame for more card selection might be correct. Rite may have been a win more.
11 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Ash Barrens
Card Advantage [19]
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Gush
3 Preordain
2 Augur of Bolas
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Inner Fire
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
Combo [11]
3 Sprouting Vines
3 Tolarian Winds
3 Gigadrowse
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Dispel
2 Hydroblast
2 Serrated Arrows
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Electrickery
1 Flaring Pain
2 Curfew
2 Augur of Bolas
1 Izzet Boilerworks
I like the probes a lot in the main. They give you free info and let you steal games sometimes.
thanks in advance
Pyro
Hi Pyro. I have played this deck on and off for about 3 years now. In terms of it being competitive, I would say it is on the lower / medium side of things. If all you care about is winning in pauper, I would suggest trying tron, delver, or boros variants in pauper. If you really like storm / high tide / spell based combo decks, than this is the archetype for you in pauper. The current list I have is shown here:
11 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Ash Barrens
Card Selection / Draw [20]
3 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Augur of Bolas
4 Gush
4 Inner Fire
4 Manamorphose
3 Lotus Petal
Combo pieces [8]
3 Sprouting Vines
3 Tolarian Winds
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Conjurer's Bauble
Protection [3]
3 Gigadrowse
3 Hydroblast
2 Dispel
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Augur of Bolas
1 Flaring Pain
2 Electrickery
1 Deep Analysis
3 Gut Shot
In terms of my own success, I have been able to 3-2 and 4-1 multiple times in friendly pauper leagues with the deck. I have yet to 5-0 sadly. With the recent addition of competitive leagues, I have currently entered one and am 3-0. With the recent addition of Foil into the format, the deck may have to be adjusted to deal with that in the main board. Past that, I think the deck is in reasonable shape overall.
jlhansen
The only reason is to bluff UR delver, which is a deck I frequently play online. Past that, they don't serve a ton of benefits, and are not needed for the deck to function. If you like the art or think they are cool for style points, feel free to use them. Otherwise, basic lands with the art of your choice will work just fine.
On the other hand, last month I was playing Burn vs. Izzet Blitz with snow-covered lands. The first game he was so mana-screwed he died quickly, only playing a Snow-Covered Island, Delver of Secrets, and some cantrips. I *did* think he was playing Izzet Delver and (incorrectly) sideboarded in Electrickery for the 2nd game. So there's at least one real world example of the "snow-covered bluff" actually working.
Corrupt Control B | Burn R | UG Turbofog UG | White Weenie W | GW Tethmos WG | BG Cycling Combo BG
Enchantress GBW | Colorless Tron C | Red Deck Wins R | UG Madness UG | Mono-G Tron G | UR Puzzlehorns UR
Rhystic Tron WU| WU Prowess WU | BR Reanimator BR | Mono-R Control R | Stompy G | Temur Tron URG
Mardu Infinite Priest WBR | 85-Card Dredge BRG | Elves GU | Boros Bully RW | Jeskai Familiars RWU
Clear the Mind . The card is an amazing alternative to conjurer's bauble and initial testing suggests that it makes vinestorm significantly better. Most notably, you can cast clear the mind after you initial combo to get the lands back into your deck, which allows you to combo a second time for huge amounts. This second combo almost guarantees a kill if you get it off, and occurs a lot more than one might expect.
By the way, congratulations on the 5-0 Raptor, that is seriously awesome!
My current main deck:
1 Mountain
3 Ash Barrens
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Lotus Petal
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Brainstorm
1 Kaervek's Torch
1 Gigadrowse
1 Dispel
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Flux
2 Sprouting Vines
1 Pieces of the Puzzle
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Clear the Mind
4 Inner Fire
4 Gush
3 Sprouting Vines
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Clear the Mind
4 Chromatic Star
4 Gush
4 Inner Fire
1 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Mountain
4 Brainstorm
4 Manamorphose
1 Dispel
1 Arcane Denial
11 Island
1 Rolling Thunder
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
It seems fine for the most part. I do agree that this is more of a gush / inner fire deck than anything. Part of me even feels like this deck is more closely related to high tide than storm because of that. The only thing I might consider is -1 sphere + 1 giga.
What is your sideboard?
This is my current list:
2 Sprouting Vines
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Clear the Mind
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Chromatic Star
4 Gush
4 Inner Fire
1 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Mountain
4 Brainstorm
4 Manamorphose
2 Arcane Denial
10 Island
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
I was inspired by Matt Nass's recent articles on CFB surrounding how to build combo, so I built a version using pyrite spellbomb loops as the wincon. There are several benefits of this. First, these loops allow us to do infinite damage from a coloured source. Second, cycling our wincon instead of having it sit in our hand is important. Third, having multiple sources for graveyard recursion allows us to use our anti-disruption spells (like arcane denial) multiple times.
I'm currently trying to figure three things. First, should we add a split of arcane denial and gigadroswse? Second, should we add a seething song so we can dip to 3 mana without fizzling.
As for the sideboard question, this is something i'm still trying to figure out. There are obvious inclusions like hydroblast for burn and RDW, pieces of the puzzle or deep analysis for grindy matchups like MBC, conjurer's bauble for gy hate, and gigadrowse for blue based control. The central problem is whether or not we dedicate slots to ub delver, or if we just accept the matchup as not winnable. My current plan involves using Circle of Protection: Blue as a way to beat their blue creatures, and holding arcane denials for their gurmags. However, this has not been working that well.
Anyways, I have about 7 million things this semester that I have to finish, so I probably won't be doing another one of these rambling posts for a while. Good luck to everyone out there playing this beautiful and hellish deck.
That card looks really interesting. I'm also interested to try out spellgorger weird.
But yah, vinestorm qua vinestorm is almost certainly toast. Big thanks to everyone who has worked on vinestorm. Has been a lot of fun. Shout out to Raptor for the 5-0, massive props for that.
Let's keep trying to make a viable combo deck in this format!
The goal with the current list is to loop through our deck using clear the mind and stream of thought in order to create a massive surplus of mana and afterwards use that mana to cast a replicated stream of thought to mill out our opponent in one go.
The choices in the current list are very speculative. I'm not sure if we should play rite over petal. I'm not sure if we should play 4 ideas unbound, or if we should try to work in accumulated knowledge. The land count should maybe be +1 or +2. Basically everything is up in the air, because our card economy has completely changed with the banning of gush and probe.
Anyways, hope everyone reading this has a lovely day.
3 Sprouting Vines
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Rite of Flame
1 Lotus Petal
1 Stream of Thought
4 Ideas Unbound
1 Clear the Mind
1 Chromatic Star
4 Inner Fire
1 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Gigadrowse
1 Mountain
4 Brainstorm
4 Manamorphose
10 Island
4 Preordain
4 Ponder