So this is a combo deck that's been pushed a bit on MTGOStrat (starting one month ago) and MTGOAcademy; the theory is that you get your one forest out of your deck, then mill yourself out with Balustrade Spy and win with a 20-ish point Haunting Misery.
You can either have the Misery in hand, get it back with a Bauble once your library is empty, or use the two Morgue Thefts thusly:
1 - cast Songs of the Damned
2 - Morgue Theft for a Simian Spirit Guide
3 - Morgue Theft for an Anarchist
4 - use Spirit Guide to get red mana to cast Anarchist, use Anarchist to get Misery.
You can win on turn 1, but you're more likely to need a few more draws to get the last piece of your combo. To be honest, I haven't been playing a lot of MTGO with any deck lately, and it's been a month since I played this one, but ObZen asked me to post (and kindly supplied a deck list). From what I understand, the deck isn't exactly consistent, but it's a lot more consistent than you would think.
The first five cards of the sideboard are the alternate win condition, for use against decks that run a lot of life gain (you basically can't win against someone who gains 6 life with the base deck) - the alternate win is an infinite combo:
1 - Mill yourself out
2 - Cast Songs of the Damned
3 - Cast Morgue Theft on Pit Keeper
4 - Cast Morgue Theft on Blood Celebrant
5 - Cast Celebrant and Keeper (targeting Cavern Harpy)
6 - Cast Harpy (using Celebrant for blue), returning Keeper to hand
7 - Cast Keeper, targeting Mnemonic Wall
8 - Cast Wall (Celebrant for blue again), returning Songs of the Damned
9 - Cast Songs of the Damned again
10 - return Harpy to hand
11 - Cast Harpy, return Keeper, cast Keeper, get Gray Merchant
12 - Cast Gary (draining for 6 (1 spy, 1 Harpy 1 Keeper 1 Celebrant 2 Merch))
At which point you can bounce harpy to recur either wall if you need more mana or Gary to burn your opponent out and replenish your life total.
The other sideboard cards are pretty obvious - Pyroblasts versus counterspell decks (which this deck otherwise folds to, and honestly folds to pretty badly even with pyros), Chewers to slow down affinity, Flaring Pain for COP: Black and Prismatic Strands. I've suggested elsewhere putting in a third morgue theft to make sure flaring pain is castable via the songs of the damned plan.
Other cards that could go into this deck:
Destroy the Evidence as Balustrade Spy number 5 to N - advantage is it's cheaper than transmuting a House Guard; disadvantage is it isn't a creature for Misery purposes.
Unearth creatures, possibly with Soulshriek - I've thought about this, and the main problem is that while they are just as good as Misery on turn one, they get a lot worse if you need 3-4 turns to draw into your kill, since your opponent is very likely to have an untapped creature or a kill spell available. I love soulshriek in 8-land Spy as a way to win out of nowhere, but it doesn't cut it in 1-land spy.
Other cycle creatures: I think Shaffer used the green/red cycle guy in an earlier version of the deck; guess he figured other cards were better.
Anyway, anyone else been messing with this deck, have experiences to report, etc? I'm hoping ObZen will drop by with some play experiences.
It's been in some versions of the deck; you don't want too many non-creature spells because you need at least 24 or so creatures to be sure to have enough in the yard to kill with Misery, so Dimir House Guard wins out as Spies number 5 and 6; worth testing to see how you like it though.
The other sideboard cards are pretty obvious - Pyroblasts versus counterspell decks (which this deck otherwise folds to, and honestly folds to pretty badly even with pyros), Chewers to slow down affinity, Flaring Pain for COP: Black and Prismatic Strands. I've suggested elsewhere putting in a third morgue theft to make sure flaring pain is castable via the songs of the damned plan.
I would like to note that Ingot chewer, while useful against affinity, are in there to beat the common grave-hate this deck will receive post board (Relic of Progenitus/Nihil Spellbomb) from MBC which in case people weren't aware is the other top dog in this meta right now. Unfortunately, I haven't thought of an alternate win con that doesn't utilize the graveyard that this deck can make use of.
Reverent Silence is something i've been experimenting with for opposing enchantment reliant decks since it's free and tutorable via house guard.
This is something myself and Shaffawaffa5 had been using in the deck's infancy, but we both didn't like the fact that you absolutely had to have the forest to go off with it(Sometimes you just have to go for it when you haven't drawn grant, forest, or guardian), and like tom said it's not a creature.
I've been doing a bit of testing (Personally TRIED facing Mono-B / Mono-U). I've had a few fun rounds (one being 10 turns vs Delverfiend), and some real dull ones (maindecked Outwit :/).
Here's the list I've been trying/having a bit of fun with on Cockatrice:
List likely isn't close to perfect, but I've had some good games with it (Have yet to play it at my lgs for Pauper night. I fell in love with the deck as soon as I saw the scg article Congrats Tom on the good write up, and to ObZen for working on it
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Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
I've been doing a bit of testing (Personally TRIED facing Mono-B / Mono-U). I've had a few fun rounds (one being 10 turns vs Delverfiend), and some real dull ones (maindecked Outwit :/).
Here's the list I've been trying/having a bit of fun with on Cockatrice:
List likely isn't close to perfect, but I've had some good games with it (Have yet to play it at my lgs for Pauper night. I fell in love with the deck as soon as I saw the scg article Congrats Tom on the good write up, and to ObZen for working on it
I'm glad you like the deck! I had never played mtgo but when i saw this deck being discussed on other forums and abandoned(mostly negative/unsuccessful trials) I really wanted to develop it. lucky me I ran into shaffawaffa5, and he was another big proponent to the deck, so we started working together with many other people in the pauper community to build it up to what it is today.
Comments for your decklist: The main looks pretty close to mine( tell me how the cyclers go), but as far as the sideboard I have a little more to comment on. You really are going to want that alternate sideboard win con. Without it you really have no way of reliably beating Kitty variants(they can outlife you by turn 2 by going turn 1 Kabira Crossroads then Lone Missionary turn 2) nor Tron(if you're not quick enough[Fangren Marauder]). I kind of laughed due to nostalgia seeing your sideboard, because your sideboard literally looks card for card like my old one (except reverent silence) from when I was first starting to really develop the deck. Fog effects are nice(waffa and myself had them in our sideboards for a good while until finally ditching them), but from my experience they're just not an angle you want to attack any aggro deck from, and are only "worth it" against Eye Candy and its variants.
On Duress: I've tried and tried this card, but it never really "performed". From my testing there aren't any decks you want to duress where pyroblast isn't just better. duress against delver isn't very reliable because they very well could be holding on to a spellstutter sprite and not an actual counterspell. It's also not reliable against MBC, because they are bringing in graveyard hate, and when they draw it they are most likely going to play it on the spot, and never give you an opportunity to take it. Thusly, I settled on just all in on pyro and ingot chewer since they protect you from the most common hate you're going to see whether it be in the form of countermagic or grave hate. The nice thing about both of these options is that they're red, so simian spirit guide becomes very valuable in protecting yourself.
Keep us up to date on your findings and alterations!
Comments for your decklist: The main looks pretty close to mine( tell me how the cyclers go)
Actually I feel the main list is fairly solid (maybe a few changes that people aren't thinking atm), I just looked at the Destroy the Evidence's and quickly dropped them (No offence, I saw them as a useless addition), and I originally had the 4 cyclers, but I dropped 1 since it's never a sure thing of cycling them (I hate trying to do it off one of the 8 black sources: Lotus Petal/Wild Cantor, but that could also be the "Oops all Spells" player in me ((Been playing that since it was found))), but if I can go t1 forest with 1 cycler in hand I'm normally happy.
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I kind of laughed due to nostalgia seeing your sideboard, because your sideboard literally looks card for card like my old one (except reverent silence) from when I was first starting to really develop the deck. Fog effects are nice(waffa and myself had them in our sideboards for a good while until finally ditching them), but from my experience they're just not an angle you want to attack any aggro deck from, and are only "worth it" against Eye Candy and its variants.
I agree completely, but I know my local meta (between 10 people that'll play pauper consistently) there are 4 Eye Candy decks, so I just have the 'fogs' for that / the 2 Mono Green beats.
Other then that, the sideboards changing a fair bit, just testing different things (I think 3 chewers/3 Pyroblasts/Flaring Pain will stay at all times)
Flex spots for my sideboard atleast are: 3 Frogs (beats, Eye Candy), the Silence (For Enchantments), 4 Duress (Mirror, mono-U/B).
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On Duress: I've tried and tried this card, but it never really "performed".
I've got to say, this sums my experience with duress about 98% of the time lol the 2% it save me was vs the mirror (Duress IS good vs the mirror, prob the only time in my opinion).
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Keep us up to date on your findings and alterations!
I'll do what I can I may do a mini-primer (or a full out one if I find the time) for another mtg forum, get some more 'ideas' floating.
One matchup I like is vs Burn. It feels like it's combo vs combo, with the little interaction, so it's kinda exhilarating lol.
Actually I feel the main list is fairly solid (maybe a few changes that people aren't thinking atm), I just looked at the Destroy the Evidence's and quickly dropped them (No offence, I saw them as a useless addition), and I originally had the 4 cyclers, but I dropped 1 since it's never a sure thing of cycling them (I hate trying to do it off one of the 8 black sources: Lotus Petal/Wild Cantor, but that could also be the "Oops all Spells" player in me ((Been playing that since it was found))), but if I can go t1 forest with 1 cycler in hand I'm normally happy.
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I agree completely, but I know my local meta (between 10 people that'll play pauper consistently) there are 4 Eye Candy decks, so I just have the 'fogs' for that / the 2 Mono Green beats.
Other then that, the sideboards changing a fair bit, just testing different things (I think 3 chewers/3 Pyroblasts/Flaring Pain will stay at all times)
Flex spots for my sideboard atleast are: 3 Frogs (beats, Eye Candy), the Silence (For Enchantments), 4 Duress (Mirror, mono-U/B).
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I've got to say, this sums my experience with duress about 98% of the time lol the 2% it save me was vs the mirror (Duress IS good vs the mirror, prob the only time in my opinion).
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I'll do what I can I may do a mini-primer (or a full out one if I find the time) for another mtg forum, get some more 'ideas' floating.
One matchup I like is vs Burn. It feels like it's combo vs combo, with the little interaction, so it's kinda exhilarating lol.
Yea I can't say I "liike" the burn matchup because of all the cycling you do costs life, but it's definitely a nail biter. I will say my favorite matchup is Tron, haha. so much time to assemble, so little disruption.
Destroy the Evidence was something I had been trying out as redundancy for Spy, and as you can see was eventually dropped in my up to date list for dimir house guard. House guard is nice because you can power out maximum haunting misery potentially if you use him to sac your anarchist and spy then itself, and you can usually still win with 5 mana if you have threshold Cabal Ritual.
as far as you Fog effects: that's fine since it's a meta call, but online I haven't seen it too much it's majorly MBC and MU Delver with some tron and affinity.
The Mirror: It's hilarious. no need for duress, just get to 4 mana and target them with your spy, and you're almost guaranteed to win especially if they blow their land grant first.
My main problem with the deadshot minotaur cyclers is the time you don't have the forest. at least with manamorphose it replaces itself in resources and cards.
Eye Candy (aka DelverFiend aka Izzet Blitz aka UR Dragonaught) is a fast paced combo deck based around: Delver, Kiln Fiend, and Nivix Cyclops and a ton of instant / sorceries to do a lot of damage fast. It's my secondary Pauper deck (first right now is 1-Land, tho I'm naming it Oops, because I love that name lol).
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Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Hey sorry for dropping the ball on the tournament report. It wasn't as exciting as you would think and I wasn't particularly proud of the way i ended up getting 10th as i don't feel i really earned it(players dropping etc), especially considering of the 6 rounds i only played 3 of them and went 1-2, and that was mostly due to the deck crumbling on itself.
With that said I want to address a new take on piloting the deck i'm going to explore and that is: mulliganing into Land Grant. With this new approach there's a lot of variables involved, and I can forsee a few mulligans into oblivion that just cost you a game because you never found the land grant, but at this point i'd rather be losing to not being able to mull into Land grant rather than sit on Songs and Spy without land grant to go off. I will keep you guys updated how this works out for me.
My maindeck also changes with this approach by cutting the wirewood guardian, and put in Deadshot Minotaur since the plan is to always have that forest and it's another free card in the deck like probe, and wraith with said forest.
Again, I want to apologize for not putting a tourney report together, and next time I compete I will be more prepared and keep a log as well as provide a good and in-depth rundown.
I've been following this thread with great interest, and just thought I'd ask: what about the opposite idea to mulling into land grant - not running lands at all? Obviously, some hands without forest/land grants are keepable, and when you don't have to worry about getting that forest out of your library, even more of them will work, right? So, if hands without a land source are keepable more often than you'd have to mull for land grant/forest, it stands to reason you should just run 0-land spy instead. It's a shame there are so few non-land initial mana sources in pauper.
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I've been following this thread with great interest, and just thought I'd ask: what about the opposite idea to mulling into land grant - not running lands at all? Obviously, some hands without forest/land grants are keepable, and when you don't have to worry about getting that forest out of your library, even more of them will work, right? So, if hands without a land source are keepable more often than you'd have to mull for land grant/forest, it stands to reason you should just run 0-land spy instead. It's a shame there are so few non-land initial mana sources in pauper.
I can't speak on behalf of Tom or other people who have tried no land and my experience has been unsuccessful, but i'll re-visit the idea since the land grant version has come so far.
Sounds good. Decided to crunch some numbers to help you out. Here are the probabilities for at least 1 out of 5 cards in a 60 card deck with a draw of 7, 6, 5... (in other words - mulling into forest/land grant)
7: 47%
6: 42%
5: 36%
4: 30%
Assuming a 3-card hand is practically unwinnable whether you have forest/land grant or not, the combined probability for mulling into one and accepting at least a 4 land hand is 1 - (.53*.58*.64*.70) = 86%. So you will auto lose 14% of the time with this strategy, in addition to losses from hands that are unkeepable for other reasons, bad draws after keep and bad mull info from cantrips. I'd be surprised if getting that forest would be so game breaking as to compensate from the increased auto lose frequency. And if getting it out of your library is more important than its function as a reusable mana source, then you're definetely better off just not running it and trying to mull into 8 total petals + guides instead.
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Sounds good. Decided to crunch some numbers to help you out. Here are the probabilities for at least 1 out of 5 cards in a 60 card deck with a draw of 7, 6, 5... (in other words - mulling into forest/land grant)
7: 47%
6: 42%
5: 36%
4: 30%
Assuming a 3-card hand is practically unwinnable whether you have forest/land grant or not, the combined probability for mulling into one and accepting at least a 4 land hand is 1 - (.53*.58*.64*.70) = 86%. So you will auto lose 14% of the time with this strategy, in addition to losses from hands that are unkeepable for other reasons, bad draws after keep and bad mull info from cantrips. I'd be surprised if getting that forest would be so game breaking as to compensate from the increased auto lose frequency. And if getting it out of your library is more important than its function as a reusable mana source, then you're definetely better off just not running it and trying to mull into 8 total petals + guides instead.
Ah excellent. I appreciate this a lot. It just further justifies how that won't work, haha. Alright so here is the landless version i'm going to be testing throughout today and this weekend, so if you're interested you can try a few hands too
Ideally you want to be mulligan-ing into Spy+IMS or Songs + IMS. Bauble and House guard are the redundancies there, so those are probably keepable too. also not hand with IMS but with 2 or more probe/wraith are probably worth the risk if you have the rituals to put out a win.
The sideboard really only changes a card (Reverent Silence), so what you want with it i haven't decided myself what i want it to be.
I think I've found a small improvement on the infinite combo:
the alternate win is an infinite combo:
1 - Mill yourself out
2 - Cast Songs of the Damned
3 - Cast Morgue Theft on Pit Keeper
4 - Cast Morgue Theft on Blood Celebrant
5 - Cast Celebrant and Keeper (targeting Cavern Harpy)
6 - Cast Harpy (using Celebrant for blue), returning Keeper to hand
7 - Cast Keeper, targeting Mnemonic Wall
8 - Cast Wall (Celebrant for blue again), returning Songs of the Damned
9 - Cast Songs of the Damned again
10 - return Harpy to hand
11 - Cast Harpy, return Keeper, cast Keeper, get Gray Merchant
12 - Cast Gary (draining for 6 (1 spy, 1 Harpy 1 Keeper 1 Celebrant 2 Merch))
If you replace the second copy of Morgue Theft with Saving Grasp, step 4 and 5 could instead be:
4 - Cast Pit Keeper, returning Blood Celebrant.
5 - Cast Blood Celebrant and flashback Saving Grasp, bouncing Pit Keeper and then recast Pit Keeper (targeting Cavern Harpy)
Casting and bouncing Pit Keeper saves 2 mana as compared to flashbacking Morgue Theft. This is relevant, as steps 3 to 9 require 23 mana and there are only 24 creatures in the main deck. Going down to 21 permits a bit more liberal sideboarding and is more forgiving if you have something stuck in hand or on the board.
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I think I've found a small improvement on the infinite combo:
If you replace the second copy of Morgue Theft with Saving Grasp, step 4 and 5 could instead be:
4 - Cast Pit Keeper, returning Blood Celebrant.
5 - Cast Blood Celebrant and flashback Saving Grasp, bouncing Pit Keeper and then recast Pit Keeper (targeting Cavern Harpy)
Casting and bouncing Pit Keeper saves 2 mana as compared to flashbacking Morgue Theft. This is relevant, as steps 3 to 9 require 23 mana and there are only 24 creatures in the main deck. Going down to 21 permits a bit more liberal sideboarding and is more forgiving if you have something stuck in hand or on the board.
Very nice. I would like to point out though that this actually adds a card needed to accomplish the Gary win con, because the main deck already uses 2 thefts to go off if you aren't able to float a red mana. Additionally, when sideboarding this in i've usually taken out 3-4 probes(Depending if i need Reverent Silence), Misery, and Anarchist. so you actually add 4 creatures to the deck bumping the count to 28.
So once again I find myself in the situation where I really feel the Land Grant package is better than no lands at all. Let me break it down best i can. Feel free to add more or criticize, but this is just from my experience.
Land Grant/Forest
Pros:
-Allows you to set up your combo
-Gives you a baiting dynamic against permission
-Adds more Initial Mana Sources
-Gives value to your cantrips(shuffle effects)
Cons:
-Creates and additional bottleneck to work through
-Creates dead cards once you've drawn the forest or cast Land Grant.
-Reveals your hand, and gives information to an opponent who knows the deck what they need to counter if you don't have the win already.
-Takes up 5 slots
No Land Grant/Forest
Pros:
-Less bottlenecks to get through
-More business(opens 5 slots)
-Inevitability(not having to reveal hand)
Cons:
-Less initial mana sources
-Can't reliably cast protection post board
-Permission matchups become even harder
These are the big ones I can think of. It all boils down to that in my opinion the Land Grant/Forest version adds more of a strategic advantage in being able to setup your win, and bait counters. My big things against no land is pretty much every Con but the big ones are teat your permission matchups are worse, and protecting yourself post board is a lot more difficult.
EDIT: I just saw a card that i thought, while hilarious, could be useful against delver. Hidden Spider. Kind of like a summoning trap for this deck and plays well with the forest. just food for thought
EDIT 2: i'm really bad at this game. that's a horrible card.
So, for those still with the deck (I've yet to experiment too much with it, so I use the list in the Orig post.) could we get a sideboard plan going? I'm more interested personally in the sideboard idea vs any lifegain (what seems to be the best to remove for our infinite combo vs them?)
Anyone doing any videos / finding videos of this deck in action on youtube/such?
And finally, any changes to the deck at all, or are we still experimenting more?
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Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
So, for those still with the deck (I've yet to experiment too much with it, so I use the list in the Orig post.) could we get a sideboard plan going? I'm more interested personally in the sideboard idea vs any lifegain (what seems to be the best to remove for our infinite combo vs them?)
Anyone doing any videos / finding videos of this deck in action on youtube/such?
And finally, any changes to the deck at all, or are we still experimenting more?
Usually probes are the easiest to bring out. for that combo in particular i usually cut misery, anarchist, and 3 probes. soul sisters still has a fighting chance at winning post board against this plan, because if they get 3 or more sisters out you can't win as they out life to damage you. this plan is usually also good against the decks you bring it in on because they usually don't have instant speed removal like azorius kitty.
the rest of the board is usually -4 probe bring in 4 answer in the case of pyroblast and ingot chewer.
As far as changes to the deck i've just stuck with 1-land, and made the wirewood guardian another dimir house guard. Just a personal change, but i feel the deck is fine with just 4 forest tutors.
Usually probes are the easiest to bring out. for that combo in particular i usually cut misery, anarchist, and 3 probes. soul sisters still has a fighting chance at winning post board against this plan, because if they get 3 or more sisters out you can't win as they out life to damage you.
You can actually beat soul sisters, though it takes a hell of a long time if they make you play it out: use the spy to mill them out and Gary to offset the life loss from the harpy and celebrant.
You can actually beat soul sisters, though it takes a hell of a long time if they make you play it out: use the spy to mill them out and Gary to offset the life loss from the harpy and celebrant.
Ah yea of course. I just hate going to storm 90+ lol so i never thought of that while i was posting.
Is anyone still playing this deck? I am really interested in trying it out - just for the challenge of playing it right - plus the jaw dropping factor of a turn 1 win
What are the recent changes to this deck? Hows it been holding up in the meta?
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1 Forest
Forest finders:
4 Land Grant
1 Wirewood Guardian
Other mana:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Rituals:
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
Cantrips:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith
4 Balustrade Spy
2 Dimir House Guard
Endgame cards:
1 Haunting Misery
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Songs of the Damned
2 Morgue Theft
1 Anarchist
1 Blood Celebrant
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Pit Keeper
4 Pyroblast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Flaring Pain
So this is a combo deck that's been pushed a bit on MTGOStrat (starting one month ago) and MTGOAcademy; the theory is that you get your one forest out of your deck, then mill yourself out with Balustrade Spy and win with a 20-ish point Haunting Misery.
You can either have the Misery in hand, get it back with a Bauble once your library is empty, or use the two Morgue Thefts thusly:
1 - cast Songs of the Damned
2 - Morgue Theft for a Simian Spirit Guide
3 - Morgue Theft for an Anarchist
4 - use Spirit Guide to get red mana to cast Anarchist, use Anarchist to get Misery.
You can win on turn 1, but you're more likely to need a few more draws to get the last piece of your combo. To be honest, I haven't been playing a lot of MTGO with any deck lately, and it's been a month since I played this one, but ObZen asked me to post (and kindly supplied a deck list). From what I understand, the deck isn't exactly consistent, but it's a lot more consistent than you would think.
The first five cards of the sideboard are the alternate win condition, for use against decks that run a lot of life gain (you basically can't win against someone who gains 6 life with the base deck) - the alternate win is an infinite combo:
1 - Mill yourself out
2 - Cast Songs of the Damned
3 - Cast Morgue Theft on Pit Keeper
4 - Cast Morgue Theft on Blood Celebrant
5 - Cast Celebrant and Keeper (targeting Cavern Harpy)
6 - Cast Harpy (using Celebrant for blue), returning Keeper to hand
7 - Cast Keeper, targeting Mnemonic Wall
8 - Cast Wall (Celebrant for blue again), returning Songs of the Damned
9 - Cast Songs of the Damned again
10 - return Harpy to hand
11 - Cast Harpy, return Keeper, cast Keeper, get Gray Merchant
12 - Cast Gary (draining for 6 (1 spy, 1 Harpy 1 Keeper 1 Celebrant 2 Merch))
At which point you can bounce harpy to recur either wall if you need more mana or Gary to burn your opponent out and replenish your life total.
The other sideboard cards are pretty obvious - Pyroblasts versus counterspell decks (which this deck otherwise folds to, and honestly folds to pretty badly even with pyros), Chewers to slow down affinity, Flaring Pain for COP: Black and Prismatic Strands. I've suggested elsewhere putting in a third morgue theft to make sure flaring pain is castable via the songs of the damned plan.
Other cards that could go into this deck:
Destroy the Evidence as Balustrade Spy number 5 to N - advantage is it's cheaper than transmuting a House Guard; disadvantage is it isn't a creature for Misery purposes.
Unearth creatures, possibly with Soulshriek - I've thought about this, and the main problem is that while they are just as good as Misery on turn one, they get a lot worse if you need 3-4 turns to draw into your kill, since your opponent is very likely to have an untapped creature or a kill spell available. I love soulshriek in 8-land Spy as a way to win out of nowhere, but it doesn't cut it in 1-land spy.
Other cycle creatures: I think Shaffer used the green/red cycle guy in an earlier version of the deck; guess he figured other cards were better.
Anyway, anyone else been messing with this deck, have experiences to report, etc? I'm hoping ObZen will drop by with some play experiences.
David Shaffer's original post: http://mtgostrat.com/2013/10/1-land-pauper-combo-deck/
Follow-up post: http://mtgostrat.com/2013/11/1-land-spy-tournament-report-deck-discussion/
PDCMagic forum post on zero-land spy with some low-land lists as well:
http://forums.pdcmagic.com/viewtopic.php?t=7835
JustSin's discussion on MTGOacademy:
http://www.mtgoacademy.com/anything-but-one-land-combo/
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I would like to add that the deck was mentioned in Alex Ullman's article on SCG today
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27464_Combo-Breaker.html
I would like to note that Ingot chewer, while useful against affinity, are in there to beat the common grave-hate this deck will receive post board (Relic of Progenitus/Nihil Spellbomb) from MBC which in case people weren't aware is the other top dog in this meta right now. Unfortunately, I haven't thought of an alternate win con that doesn't utilize the graveyard that this deck can make use of.
Reverent Silence is something i've been experimenting with for opposing enchantment reliant decks since it's free and tutorable via house guard.
This is something myself and Shaffawaffa5 had been using in the deck's infancy, but we both didn't like the fact that you absolutely had to have the forest to go off with it(Sometimes you just have to go for it when you haven't drawn grant, forest, or guardian), and like tom said it's not a creature.
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Here's the list I've been trying/having a bit of fun with on Cockatrice:
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
Creatures (24):
1 Anarchist
4 Balustrade Spy
3 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Songs of the Damned
Land(1):
1 Forest
Sorceries (11 ):
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Haunting Misery
4 Land Grant
2 Morgue Theft
4 Duress
1 Flaring Pain
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Pyroblast
1 Reverent Silence
3 Spore Frog
List likely isn't close to perfect, but I've had some good games with it (Have yet to play it at my lgs for Pauper night. I fell in love with the deck as soon as I saw the scg article Congrats Tom on the good write up, and to ObZen for working on it
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
I'm glad you like the deck! I had never played mtgo but when i saw this deck being discussed on other forums and abandoned(mostly negative/unsuccessful trials) I really wanted to develop it. lucky me I ran into shaffawaffa5, and he was another big proponent to the deck, so we started working together with many other people in the pauper community to build it up to what it is today.
Comments for your decklist: The main looks pretty close to mine( tell me how the cyclers go), but as far as the sideboard I have a little more to comment on. You really are going to want that alternate sideboard win con. Without it you really have no way of reliably beating Kitty variants(they can outlife you by turn 2 by going turn 1 Kabira Crossroads then Lone Missionary turn 2) nor Tron(if you're not quick enough[Fangren Marauder]). I kind of laughed due to nostalgia seeing your sideboard, because your sideboard literally looks card for card like my old one (except reverent silence) from when I was first starting to really develop the deck. Fog effects are nice(waffa and myself had them in our sideboards for a good while until finally ditching them), but from my experience they're just not an angle you want to attack any aggro deck from, and are only "worth it" against Eye Candy and its variants.
On Duress: I've tried and tried this card, but it never really "performed". From my testing there aren't any decks you want to duress where pyroblast isn't just better. duress against delver isn't very reliable because they very well could be holding on to a spellstutter sprite and not an actual counterspell. It's also not reliable against MBC, because they are bringing in graveyard hate, and when they draw it they are most likely going to play it on the spot, and never give you an opportunity to take it. Thusly, I settled on just all in on pyro and ingot chewer since they protect you from the most common hate you're going to see whether it be in the form of countermagic or grave hate. The nice thing about both of these options is that they're red, so simian spirit guide becomes very valuable in protecting yourself.
Keep us up to date on your findings and alterations!
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Actually I feel the main list is fairly solid (maybe a few changes that people aren't thinking atm), I just looked at the Destroy the Evidence's and quickly dropped them (No offence, I saw them as a useless addition), and I originally had the 4 cyclers, but I dropped 1 since it's never a sure thing of cycling them (I hate trying to do it off one of the 8 black sources: Lotus Petal/Wild Cantor, but that could also be the "Oops all Spells" player in me ((Been playing that since it was found))), but if I can go t1 forest with 1 cycler in hand I'm normally happy.
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I agree completely, but I know my local meta (between 10 people that'll play pauper consistently) there are 4 Eye Candy decks, so I just have the 'fogs' for that / the 2 Mono Green beats.
Other then that, the sideboards changing a fair bit, just testing different things (I think 3 chewers/3 Pyroblasts/Flaring Pain will stay at all times)
Flex spots for my sideboard atleast are: 3 Frogs (beats, Eye Candy), the Silence (For Enchantments), 4 Duress (Mirror, mono-U/B).
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I've got to say, this sums my experience with duress about 98% of the time lol the 2% it save me was vs the mirror (Duress IS good vs the mirror, prob the only time in my opinion).
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I'll do what I can I may do a mini-primer (or a full out one if I find the time) for another mtg forum, get some more 'ideas' floating.
One matchup I like is vs Burn. It feels like it's combo vs combo, with the little interaction, so it's kinda exhilarating lol.
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
Yea I can't say I "liike" the burn matchup because of all the cycling you do costs life, but it's definitely a nail biter. I will say my favorite matchup is Tron, haha. so much time to assemble, so little disruption.
Destroy the Evidence was something I had been trying out as redundancy for Spy, and as you can see was eventually dropped in my up to date list for dimir house guard. House guard is nice because you can power out maximum haunting misery potentially if you use him to sac your anarchist and spy then itself, and you can usually still win with 5 mana if you have threshold Cabal Ritual.
as far as you Fog effects: that's fine since it's a meta call, but online I haven't seen it too much it's majorly MBC and MU Delver with some tron and affinity.
The Mirror: It's hilarious. no need for duress, just get to 4 mana and target them with your spy, and you're almost guaranteed to win especially if they blow their land grant first.
My main problem with the deadshot minotaur cyclers is the time you don't have the forest. at least with manamorphose it replaces itself in resources and cards.
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Eye Candy (aka DelverFiend aka Izzet Blitz aka UR Dragonaught) is a fast paced combo deck based around: Delver, Kiln Fiend, and Nivix Cyclops and a ton of instant / sorceries to do a lot of damage fast. It's my secondary Pauper deck (first right now is 1-Land, tho I'm naming it Oops, because I love that name lol).
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
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'Grats
What decks ya face?
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
With that said I want to address a new take on piloting the deck i'm going to explore and that is: mulliganing into Land Grant. With this new approach there's a lot of variables involved, and I can forsee a few mulligans into oblivion that just cost you a game because you never found the land grant, but at this point i'd rather be losing to not being able to mull into Land grant rather than sit on Songs and Spy without land grant to go off. I will keep you guys updated how this works out for me.
My maindeck also changes with this approach by cutting the wirewood guardian, and put in Deadshot Minotaur since the plan is to always have that forest and it's another free card in the deck like probe, and wraith with said forest.
Again, I want to apologize for not putting a tourney report together, and next time I compete I will be more prepared and keep a log as well as provide a good and in-depth rundown.
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A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
I can't speak on behalf of Tom or other people who have tried no land and my experience has been unsuccessful, but i'll re-visit the idea since the land grant version has come so far.
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7: 47%
6: 42%
5: 36%
4: 30%
Assuming a 3-card hand is practically unwinnable whether you have forest/land grant or not, the combined probability for mulling into one and accepting at least a 4 land hand is 1 - (.53*.58*.64*.70) = 86%. So you will auto lose 14% of the time with this strategy, in addition to losses from hands that are unkeepable for other reasons, bad draws after keep and bad mull info from cantrips. I'd be surprised if getting that forest would be so game breaking as to compensate from the increased auto lose frequency. And if getting it out of your library is more important than its function as a reusable mana source, then you're definetely better off just not running it and trying to mull into 8 total petals + guides instead.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
Ah excellent. I appreciate this a lot. It just further justifies how that won't work, haha. Alright so here is the landless version i'm going to be testing throughout today and this weekend, so if you're interested you can try a few hands too
Ideally you want to be mulligan-ing into Spy+IMS or Songs + IMS. Bauble and House guard are the redundancies there, so those are probably keepable too. also not hand with IMS but with 2 or more probe/wraith are probably worth the risk if you have the rituals to put out a win.
The sideboard really only changes a card (Reverent Silence), so what you want with it i haven't decided myself what i want it to be.
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Haunting Misery
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
2 Morgue Theft
4 Rite of Flame
4 Songs of the Damned
1 Anarchist
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Dimir House Guard
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
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If you replace the second copy of Morgue Theft with Saving Grasp, step 4 and 5 could instead be:
4 - Cast Pit Keeper, returning Blood Celebrant.
5 - Cast Blood Celebrant and flashback Saving Grasp, bouncing Pit Keeper and then recast Pit Keeper (targeting Cavern Harpy)
Casting and bouncing Pit Keeper saves 2 mana as compared to flashbacking Morgue Theft. This is relevant, as steps 3 to 9 require 23 mana and there are only 24 creatures in the main deck. Going down to 21 permits a bit more liberal sideboarding and is more forgiving if you have something stuck in hand or on the board.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
Very nice. I would like to point out though that this actually adds a card needed to accomplish the Gary win con, because the main deck already uses 2 thefts to go off if you aren't able to float a red mana. Additionally, when sideboarding this in i've usually taken out 3-4 probes(Depending if i need Reverent Silence), Misery, and Anarchist. so you actually add 4 creatures to the deck bumping the count to 28.
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Land Grant/Forest
Pros:
-Allows you to set up your combo
-Gives you a baiting dynamic against permission
-Adds more Initial Mana Sources
-Gives value to your cantrips(shuffle effects)
Cons:
-Creates and additional bottleneck to work through
-Creates dead cards once you've drawn the forest or cast Land Grant.
-Reveals your hand, and gives information to an opponent who knows the deck what they need to counter if you don't have the win already.
-Takes up 5 slots
No Land Grant/Forest
Pros:
-Less bottlenecks to get through
-More business(opens 5 slots)
-Inevitability(not having to reveal hand)
Cons:
-Less initial mana sources
-Can't reliably cast protection post board
-Permission matchups become even harder
These are the big ones I can think of. It all boils down to that in my opinion the Land Grant/Forest version adds more of a strategic advantage in being able to setup your win, and bait counters. My big things against no land is pretty much every Con but the big ones are teat your permission matchups are worse, and protecting yourself post board is a lot more difficult.
EDIT: I just saw a card that i thought, while hilarious, could be useful against delver. Hidden Spider. Kind of like a summoning trap for this deck and plays well with the forest. just food for thought
EDIT 2: i'm really bad at this game. that's a horrible card.
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Anyone doing any videos / finding videos of this deck in action on youtube/such?
And finally, any changes to the deck at all, or are we still experimenting more?
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
Shaffawaffa5 has streamed it on twitch from time to time:
http://www.twitch.tv/shaffawaffa5/profile
There's a couple highlight videos - one (http://www.twitch.tv/shaffawaffa5/c/3272626)
is kind of a best-case scenario but anyway.
Usually probes are the easiest to bring out. for that combo in particular i usually cut misery, anarchist, and 3 probes. soul sisters still has a fighting chance at winning post board against this plan, because if they get 3 or more sisters out you can't win as they out life to damage you. this plan is usually also good against the decks you bring it in on because they usually don't have instant speed removal like azorius kitty.
the rest of the board is usually -4 probe bring in 4 answer in the case of pyroblast and ingot chewer.
As far as changes to the deck i've just stuck with 1-land, and made the wirewood guardian another dimir house guard. Just a personal change, but i feel the deck is fine with just 4 forest tutors.
Hope this helps and good luck!
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You can actually beat soul sisters, though it takes a hell of a long time if they make you play it out: use the spy to mill them out and Gary to offset the life loss from the harpy and celebrant.
Ah yea of course. I just hate going to storm 90+ lol so i never thought of that while i was posting.
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What are the recent changes to this deck? Hows it been holding up in the meta?