Not sure what the name is for this format, or if there even is one. I know people play this way, but I am trying to form my own take on it.
It's kind of like a cube, but instead of drafting from the set you play it as one big deck, with 5 colors, and everybody shares one library and one graveyard.
What I was thinking I would do is make one of these decks when I redeem my set of M12 from MTGO next month. (Plain vanilla, I know. It's a starting point for bigger things.) There are 223 non-land cards in the set. I would want a roughly 60/40 spell-to-land ratio in the deck, so 152 lands would be added (I was thinking 20x of each basic land, plus 4x each M12 dual land, 4x each ISD dual land, 4x Evolving Wilds, 4x Terramorphic Expanse, and 4x Shimmering Grotto.) 228 spells + 152 lands = 375 cards total in the deck.
It would be an easy way to play with 2-4 players, either as 2HG or FFA. It would be a fun way to include any newbs to the game, as well. Anybody else ever try this?
Some interesting things for this style of play would be cards with flashback or that bring any card from the graveyard to your hand/battlefield. Any kind of tutoring card would make things interesting, as you would have that entire huge library to seach. Any creature that is */* for a number of cards in the graveyard. Creatures with landwalk could attack almost anyone.
EDIT: Wanna get bonkers? Add in a full 40-card deck of all the Planechase 2012 planes/phenomena.
Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
I highly recommend trying a seperate land deck. If you use a combined color pile, I'd run some 5-color and 3-color lands. Some Evolving Wilds, Alara tri-lands, etc. Also, lands that produce 2 mana like Ravnica Karoos (like Simic Growth Chamber) and Temple of the False God become virtual card advantage.
We use a seperate deck for each color, and everyone has their own "realm" consisting of 12 basic lands:Realms
Just mark each deck with a colored bead, and its a very fluid system.
I highly recommend trying a seperate land deck. If you use a combined color pile, I'd run some 5-color and 3-color lands. Some Evolving Wilds, Alara tri-lands, etc. Also, lands that produce 2 mana like Ravnica Karoos (like Simic Growth Chamber) and Temple of the False God become virtual card advantage.
We use a seperate deck for each color, and everyone has their own "realm" consisting of 12 basic lands:Realms
Just mark each deck with a colored bead, and its a very fluid system.
Hope that helps!
I've heard of doing it that way, with one stack of spells and one stack of lands. In the draw phase, you can draw from one stack or the other, but not both. If a spell or ability resolves so that they may draw multiple cards, then they can draw that number of cards in any combination of spells or lands. Am I hearing that correctly?
Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
I've heard of doing it that way, with one stack of spells and one stack of lands. In the draw phase, you can draw from one stack or the other, but not both. If a spell or ability resolves so that they may draw multiple cards, then they can draw that number of cards in any combination of spells or lands. Am I hearing that correctly?
Correct. And you can look at the cards as you draw them, so you can assess as you draw. (We tried to make it as intuitive as possible... People intuitively won't draw blindly.)
We've been playing this way for about 4 years. Works great.
Okay... I am going to do the fat stack in lieu of a cube. This is almost like building a cube, except that it's not a cube. Cubes take more time to set up, whereas fat stacks are ready to play as soon as they hit the table. Another difference from a cube is that you don't have to work as hard to balance the power between colors as everyone has a shot at drawing any given card in the stack.
Starting off with an 80 card land deck:
8x each basic land (40)
1x each core set dual land (5)
1x each ISD dual land (5)
1x each RAV karoo land (10)
20x ??? (I want some with stuff that triggers when entering the battlefield, plus some colorless mana land that have other uses. Keeping it within Modern legal sets and no more than $1 each.)
This could expand a bit as I find more cards I like. But, 80 seems like a nice starting point for now.
The start of the spells deck:
RAV block guildmages
ALA block battlemages
M11 Planeswalkers
M11 Titans
Child of Alara (because I can)
Anyone else have a fat stack and care to share their list? Any good cycles of spells, creatures, etc that would work well here?
Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
If you are doing 2 stacks, the double-color and gold spells tend to be harder to cast than usual. I'd start with mostly single-color mana requirements for your initial testing.
Also, do not underestimate how hard high CMC spells are to cast, even when you can choose to draw lands. Balance your mana curve as you would a standard deck rather than EDH.
It's very important in the early playtesting to have players able to cast spells. Playtesters will quickly dismiss a format as a failure if they become frustrated. Set up some certain successes for the first tests.
Finally, since the spell deck is 5-color: 5-color lands and Oddessey Filter lands. I like the OD filter lands because they can transform a useless mana color into 2 potentially useful colors. IMO, they are superior to SHA filters for the role you need.
The M10-style duals may be too luck-oriented and swingy in 5-color. I think the mandatory ETB tapped on the ALA tri-lands may be less frustrating for players.
Lastly, Reflecting Pools can make casting double-color requirement spells like Titans easier to cast.
Thinking of putting the ETB tapped lands from Zendikar (commons that do things, uncommon duals that do things.) Also, thinking of possibly using the Worldwake man-lands (since I have a set.)
EDIT: Y'know... I did just get FTV: Realms... Hmm...
Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
Vivid Lands and Gemstone Mine play nice with the Ravnica Karoo lands.
How much green landfetch will be in the spell decks? Which ones? At least one each Sylvan Scrying and Explosive Vegetation, I trust. An Expedition Map could prove useful, too. Unless these fall under "mana producing" cards, according to the Fat Stack rules link. I hope they won't fall there.
Given the need for specific lands, maybe skew the Fat Stack towards green, for playsets of Rampant Growth, Cultivate, and/or other landfetch?
If you've the resources, running only snow lands and Into the North might be an option. Especially as the dual lands from Coldsnap are Snow lands.
Some Domain cards are very potent, and since this IS a five color deck... maybe even single copies of Coalition Victory and Last Stand could be interesting?
Fellwar Stone is mentioned in the Fat Stack link, but I want to reiterate how useful it can be.
Am I correct in presuming you intend to only run one copy of any given spell in the spell deck?
Maybe run more artifacts and hybrid mana spells than others? This would be to compensate for someone not getting the right land.
A smattering of targeted land destruction spells could shift the game dramatically. Whether you want this or not is up to you.
Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter might provide interesting choices to a player - especially one in need of a specific color.
Any cards that shuffle themselves or a target card(s) back into the library makes for entertaining choice making. Even Memory Lapse and other instants that put cards on top of the library take on new strategic value.
The land stack list is complete. Still missing a few of the cards but I shoud have no problem finding them.
8x each Basic Land (40)
1x each M10 dual land (5)
1x each ISD dual land (5)
1x each RAV bounce land (10)
1x each ALA tri-land (5)
1x each LRW vivid land (5)
1x each ISD tribal land (10)
Total 80 lands
As for the spells stack, I think I'm going to have a target of 160 cards. Multiples of 80 should make for easy sleeving. The spells and lands will have different color sleeves. That may give away somewhat of what is in a player's hand, but it will also make it easier for setup/cleanup of the game. It will also allow me to have one land stack to use with multiple spell stacks. (Already considering a SOM block spells stack as I'm redeeming my MTGO sets very soon. Also, eyeing the possibility of a RTR block spells stack, but I'll shelve that idea until GTC is out.) The numbers work... (160 + 80) / 4 = 60 should be a good number for a 4-player game.
Since there will be a community graveyard, I figured that Flashback should get a lot of play. I've sorted through all the ISD & DKA cards with flashback and, through process of elimination, I've found 31 cards that could make the cut. These are all common/uncommon cards that I already have on hand, and every color combination is represented in between the cast and flashback costs.
Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
Update 10/9/12: The full deck list is almost complete.
Creatures list is done. Still need to find a few of the cards.
Planeswalkers list is done. Added all five from M10/M11, plus M13 Nicol Bolas.
Spells list is still coming together.
Added in the ISD block flashback spells.
Added in the RAV block uncommon split cards.
Sorting through a bunch of common/uncommon staple spells for each color from the last few core sets (M10-M13) to see what else needs to be added in. Referencing lots of cube lists to get a feel for what should make the cut.
Artifacts are basically done, but every once in a while I find an artifact that looks fun so I throw it in the box.
Lands list is done. Only missing two of the cards.
Once the entire deck list is complete, I will post it here.
EDIT: No longer contemplating the Dissension rare split cards as the spells on them do not work well with the format.
Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
I don't have Legacy Weapon, but it looks like a cheap card. I'll put it on my trade thread and see if an offer shows up.
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Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
Building a RTR fat stack with the booster box I opened. 1x each common and uncommon, so I likely won't be sleeving it up.
Will have to do a new land stack to cover the unique mana fixing required, as well as accounting for creatures that require a guildgate to be in play to trigger an ability. 4x each basic, 4x each guildgate, 4x Transguild Promenade, 4x Rouge's Passage.
Not fancy, at all. Kinda lazy, actually. At least I'm using all those commons and uncommons for something.
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Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
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It's kind of like a cube, but instead of drafting from the set you play it as one big deck, with 5 colors, and everybody shares one library and one graveyard.
EDIT 9/19/12: It's called a Fat Stack, and info can be found on the WotC site.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/resources.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/resources/formats-casual#alternative
What I was thinking I would do is make one of these decks when I redeem my set of M12 from MTGO next month. (Plain vanilla, I know. It's a starting point for bigger things.) There are 223 non-land cards in the set. I would want a roughly 60/40 spell-to-land ratio in the deck, so 152 lands would be added (I was thinking 20x of each basic land, plus 4x each M12 dual land, 4x each ISD dual land, 4x Evolving Wilds, 4x Terramorphic Expanse, and 4x Shimmering Grotto.) 228 spells + 152 lands = 375 cards total in the deck.
It would be an easy way to play with 2-4 players, either as 2HG or FFA. It would be a fun way to include any newbs to the game, as well. Anybody else ever try this?
Some interesting things for this style of play would be cards with flashback or that bring any card from the graveyard to your hand/battlefield. Any kind of tutoring card would make things interesting, as you would have that entire huge library to seach. Any creature that is */* for a number of cards in the graveyard. Creatures with landwalk could attack almost anyone.
EDIT: Wanna get bonkers? Add in a full 40-card deck of all the Planechase 2012 planes/phenomena.
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
It wasn't restricted to one set, though. Landfetch is extra useful in the format. Too much tutoring, though, can slow the game down, so beware.
The assorted Beacons and Zeniths make fine inclusions.
Shuffling is difficult if in sleeves.
Have fun.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
We use a seperate deck for each color, and everyone has their own "realm" consisting of 12 basic lands:Realms
Just mark each deck with a colored bead, and its a very fluid system.
Hope that helps!
I've heard of doing it that way, with one stack of spells and one stack of lands. In the draw phase, you can draw from one stack or the other, but not both. If a spell or ability resolves so that they may draw multiple cards, then they can draw that number of cards in any combination of spells or lands. Am I hearing that correctly?
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
Correct. And you can look at the cards as you draw them, so you can assess as you draw. (We tried to make it as intuitive as possible... People intuitively won't draw blindly.)
We've been playing this way for about 4 years. Works great.
Starting off with an 80 card land deck:
8x each basic land (40)
1x each core set dual land (5)
1x each ISD dual land (5)
1x each RAV karoo land (10)
20x ??? (I want some with stuff that triggers when entering the battlefield, plus some colorless mana land that have other uses. Keeping it within Modern legal sets and no more than $1 each.)
This could expand a bit as I find more cards I like. But, 80 seems like a nice starting point for now.
The start of the spells deck:
RAV block guildmages
ALA block battlemages
M11 Planeswalkers
M11 Titans
Child of Alara (because I can)
Anyone else have a fat stack and care to share their list? Any good cycles of spells, creatures, etc that would work well here?
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
Also, do not underestimate how hard high CMC spells are to cast, even when you can choose to draw lands. Balance your mana curve as you would a standard deck rather than EDH.
It's very important in the early playtesting to have players able to cast spells. Playtesters will quickly dismiss a format as a failure if they become frustrated. Set up some certain successes for the first tests.
The M10-style and ISD duals can be swingy, but I want the diversity. I think the ALA shard lands and RAV karoo lands will solve a lot of that.
I have an Exotic Orchard somewhere I can put in.
I like Reflecting Pool, but it's a spendy card which I don't already have.
I have a few Shimmering Grotto, Terramorphic Expanse, and Evolving Wilds that I can add in for now until something better comes along.
Thinking of putting the ETB tapped lands from Zendikar (commons that do things, uncommon duals that do things.) Also, thinking of possibly using the Worldwake man-lands (since I have a set.)
EDIT: Y'know... I did just get FTV: Realms... Hmm...
Thanks for the input!
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
How much green landfetch will be in the spell decks? Which ones? At least one each Sylvan Scrying and Explosive Vegetation, I trust. An Expedition Map could prove useful, too. Unless these fall under "mana producing" cards, according to the Fat Stack rules link. I hope they won't fall there.
Given the need for specific lands, maybe skew the Fat Stack towards green, for playsets of Rampant Growth, Cultivate, and/or other landfetch?
If you've the resources, running only snow lands and Into the North might be an option. Especially as the dual lands from Coldsnap are Snow lands.
Some Domain cards are very potent, and since this IS a five color deck... maybe even single copies of Coalition Victory and Last Stand could be interesting?
Fellwar Stone is mentioned in the Fat Stack link, but I want to reiterate how useful it can be.
Am I correct in presuming you intend to only run one copy of any given spell in the spell deck?
Maybe run more artifacts and hybrid mana spells than others? This would be to compensate for someone not getting the right land.
A smattering of targeted land destruction spells could shift the game dramatically. Whether you want this or not is up to you.
Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter might provide interesting choices to a player - especially one in need of a specific color.
Scry effects might really mess with someone. That could be hilarious! Crystal Ball, Eyes of the Watcher, Soothsaying and the like. I'd guess Brainstorm could make for agonizing choices, too.
Any cards that shuffle themselves or a target card(s) back into the library makes for entertaining choice making. Even Memory Lapse and other instants that put cards on top of the library take on new strategic value.
Do post your final decklists for us.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
8x each Basic Land (40)
1x each M10 dual land (5)
1x each ISD dual land (5)
1x each RAV bounce land (10)
1x each ALA tri-land (5)
1x each LRW vivid land (5)
1x each ISD tribal land (10)
Total 80 lands
As for the spells stack, I think I'm going to have a target of 160 cards. Multiples of 80 should make for easy sleeving. The spells and lands will have different color sleeves. That may give away somewhat of what is in a player's hand, but it will also make it easier for setup/cleanup of the game. It will also allow me to have one land stack to use with multiple spell stacks. (Already considering a SOM block spells stack as I'm redeeming my MTGO sets very soon. Also, eyeing the possibility of a RTR block spells stack, but I'll shelve that idea until GTC is out.) The numbers work... (160 + 80) / 4 = 60 should be a good number for a 4-player game.
Since there will be a community graveyard, I figured that Flashback should get a lot of play. I've sorted through all the ISD & DKA cards with flashback and, through process of elimination, I've found 31 cards that could make the cut. These are all common/uncommon cards that I already have on hand, and every color combination is represented in between the cast and flashback costs.
Color - Card Name (Flashback color)
W - Purify the Grave (W); Feeling of Dread (U); Lingering Souls (B); Rally the Peasants (R); Ray of Revelation (G)
U - Saving Grasp (W); multiple, see below* (U); Forbidden Alchemy (B); Mystic Retrieval (R); Memory's Journey (G)
B - Unburial Rites (W); Reap the Seagraf (U); Moan of the Unhallowed (B); Bump in the Night (R); Deadly Allure (G)
R - Burning Oil (W); Desperate Ravings (U); Fires of Undeath (B); multiple, see below* (R); Ancient Grudge (G)
G - Travel Preparations (W); Tracker's Instincts (U); Spider Spawning (B); Wild Hunger (R); Gnaw to the Bone (G)
The U/U and R/R combinations each have four possibilities...
U/U
R/R
Question for the audience: Which cards from these two groups do I keep/cut?
EDIT: The winners are Think Twice and Faithless looting
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
EDIT: No longer contemplating the Dissension rare split cards as the spells on them do not work well with the format.
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
Cards that let a player draw and discard, like Mad Prophet, may make for interesting choices, especially with flashback available.
By chance, is there a lone Door to Nothingness and a lone Legacy Weapon in there?
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
I don't have Legacy Weapon, but it looks like a cheap card. I'll put it on my trade thread and see if an offer shows up.
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
Will have to do a new land stack to cover the unique mana fixing required, as well as accounting for creatures that require a guildgate to be in play to trigger an ability. 4x each basic, 4x each guildgate, 4x Transguild Promenade, 4x Rouge's Passage.
Not fancy, at all. Kinda lazy, actually. At least I'm using all those commons and uncommons for something.
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username