Sorry to chime in and bust this little fan fare up but let me explain something to you. (Now keep in mind that I've played magic since the dark so I do have a bit of knowledge about this game)
One of the reason y'all stated is it doesn't have the problem cards modern does. Some examples were affinity, dredge, and infect. Let me tell you that 2 of those 3 are fair abilities, but it's the synergy they have with other sets that make them busted. Right now frontier is "safe", but that won't be for long. Set will come out that have busted synergies with previous sets. Wizards is always trying to push the envelope with new cards and new abilities. Eventually this will plague frontier also.
By that I mean look at dredge. It's a fairly ability. But when you combine cards after dredges print things get crazy. Ameba. Bridge from below, Dread Return, etc. Now modern dredge has a new ally. That same thing will eventually happen here also.
No lightning bolt was a point earlier. There's nothing stopping the print of that card again. So m20 or whatever could have it. Just like the modern players didn't ever expect it to be legal again for them at the formats creation.
Wizards always makes mistakes. By that I mean they admitted Wild Mongrel was busted and vowed to never print a 2 drop on that power level again. Then came ravager. Even stronger. Then came goyf. Oops. They did it again. Now with the power creep and the fact that while the pup was busted way back then they said by now standards he's just okay. They gave us noose constricter. Almost the same card. Just doesn't change colors, but is in a better tribal deck...
Who's to say frontier won't have it's own set of problem cards? Something like Sphinx's tut couod be that card. Just the format is open right now so y'all don't know it's the boogie man yet. (odds it's that card is pretty low, but it or something else could be the formats Bloodmoon.)
What's the point of that? Eventually ever card you call a problem card will have it's upgrade problem card and they will all be frontier legal.
The price will eventually go up. Why do I say that? Well let's look at the prices of a few cards. Black didn't have a really good removal spell for a single black mana until recently. They printed Fatal Push. So now frontier players get to shell out for that, but guess what... Another example is ol tasinger. He's a modern staple now. Frontier players get to pay for them. Other cards like that will come. Eventually most modern cards will be frontier legal also. These 2 examples are only proof of that.
I get that right now it's a bigger standard. That's cool. My favorite format was old extended back in the day. The past 7 years of magic? Yes please. But guess what.. That's only going to last for a little while before its a big set of blocks also. But with no wizards support, as it seems. So the price of your staples will go up. Possibly surpassing modern staples as they print modern masters... But frontier cards only get printed once. While the format is still new cards not quite on modern power level but frontier and standard staples could see a price spike that makes them hard to obtain. A card like Jace the mind sculpture comes to mind. Modern and right now frontier both get to enjoy these cards at reduced prices one they rotate out of standard, but that price trend could stay high if frontier picks up traction.
Point of all this.. Enjoy frontier while it's ideal, because sooner or later it's going to be modern's little brother.
(I say all that just to make y'all aware of what's down the road. I always support more formats and more opportunities to play one of the games I love)
The other issue is if frontier ever does get legitimate wizard's support they're going to ignore all of your testing and requests and just start it at some arbitrary point with their own ban list
I was pretty active in the original group on magic-league.com that wanted the modern format, it was originally called "overextended" and had a tested metagame and short ban list for the sets mercadian forward. Then suddenly they decided "new card frames" was more relevant than "no restricted list" and banned a ton of cards arbitrarily with no testing with complete disregard for the magic-league.com community.
Majority of modern decks are independent creations, they are not standard plus nor legacy light, I mean look at affinity, it doesn't even play affinity cards anymore. Until frontier's cardpool justifies that it won't be a format, and not be negative, but any "testing" you're doing is all for not at the end of the day the only reason to play frontier is because jvp isn't good enough anywhere else?
Wizards is going to be making a new format eventually, just I'm not sure when they are planning to do it because right now so many sets are standard legal we basically are in a mini-extended format and they don't have a lot of reasons to announce a new format until after amonkhet block rotates with Kaladesh.
I have an entire frontier box built full of modern / edh staples from the legal sets. My own thoughts are that wizards is definitely not starting at Kahns block.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
No, Khans was too good. It will be Origins or later.
The only wrench in the plans is if, like the walk back on Modern support, they power up things again. If they add 1 more good removal (Push, Path, Bolt) then its going to be pretty hard for Control not to dominate any new non-rotating set.
No, Khans was too good. It will be Origins or later.
The only wrench in the plans is if, like the walk back on Modern support, they power up things again. If they add 1 more good removal (Push, Path, Bolt) then its going to be pretty hard for Control not to dominate any new non-rotating set.
Well, "technically" if they went at Kahns block with a scalpel and did some serious fox kids One Piece "oh my gods what did they do to you Jimmy?!" stuff I think they could start at Theros, but that is a really big if. Also they probably got to do it with Kaladesh / Aether revolt.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
And that's just it. Wizards design pushes specific cards as you listed. Those would, in a few years, be your 20 dollar or higher cards, assuming the format Wizards supported officially included them.
That's the thing. Wizards has been ignoring the secondary market for ages and when they print things they are doing it with nostalgia or other aspects in mind. The secondary market is basically a death spiral for the game and any cards that enter it because of how the trading of cards works. The truth is price memory is a myth. What really happens is that a seller runs out of a card, so they put a buylist up to get the cards. Players who bought the card expect a certain amount of value back from the card, so the seller has to set their buylist price high enough to get people to sell them the card. Once the seller gets the card, they have to sell that card at a profit so they increase the price accordingly. Once they run out of cards again the pattern repeats with having to rebuy the same card back from the people they likely sold to. This just keeps repeating constantly until a dollar Sensei's Divining Top reaches 20+ usd or a Chalice of the Void reaches 60+ usd.
Then wizards does a reprint. Well, two things happen:
1) Some sellers start panic selling their cards off asap before people know about the reprint (and usually fail)
2) Others plan on buying up as many cheap copies as they can in an effort to manipulate the market and keep the prices high. This is especially true of mythics since they have a limited supply and with a deep enough pockets and credit rating it is totally possible to do it.
Originally, there was a third party that would also buy up a significant amount of sealed product to sit on since the promise of lotto tickets and high value cards will lead to the box value rising steadily over time, but ever since the Eternal Masters debacle and mass box printings that market has cooled significantly.
So how do you stop this from happening? Easy, you reprint the cards regularly to keep prices in check. Does wizards do this? Technically, they are doing it with modern masters and other masters sets, but the trouble is they aren't doing it for the purpose of market stabilization. Wizards is doing it more so to profit off of the slow perpetual death cycle. It's basically like the plot of Crow Fall: They are the visitors to a dying world gathering resources before the darkness consumes the realm and the lands are fallow.
Do I think that everyone at wizards wants this? Heck no. The real message I'm getting from Wizards after all this time is that the stockholders want money, they got a greedy CEO, and that is forcing them to make compromises that will probably cost them more in the long run. I've been looking them over on payscale as well as reading up articles over the last couple of years and I'm pretty sure the people that want to give us a financial break aren't the ones in the decision chairs.
So why does frontier exist? Well, maybe it is because stores want to move cards, but the reason it resonates with players is because it uses cards that aren't as close to the ominous darkness laying in the center of the multiverse consuming the game.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think our major disconnect with eachother, is that you think there is this death spiral, and I just dont see it. What card is simply unavailable and is crippling any format? I mean FOILS sure, especially if you go back far enough, but no card is unavailable really, and no card is so critical to a wide number of strategies that its blocking folks who really want to play, from doing so.
I think we also disagree on why Frontier resonates. Its not because those cards will be reprinted (the list you have above? Nope, never.) its because it gives a DIFFERENT way to use those cards. Its just novelty, like you commented on Standard Mechanics. 'Oh thats nice' as you explore a certain deck that maybe is too weak for Modern, but was not Standard possible.
Thats it. Its a novelty, a distraction, its not even a real format and will get no real Wizards support.
Its a way to use cards that you may still have kicking around, or that stores still have in bulk and want to ship off at a few bucks a pop. Nothing more, nothing less.
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UW Spirits
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One of the reason y'all stated is it doesn't have the problem cards modern does. Some examples were affinity, dredge, and infect. Let me tell you that 2 of those 3 are fair abilities, but it's the synergy they have with other sets that make them busted. Right now frontier is "safe", but that won't be for long. Set will come out that have busted synergies with previous sets. Wizards is always trying to push the envelope with new cards and new abilities. Eventually this will plague frontier also.
By that I mean look at dredge. It's a fairly ability. But when you combine cards after dredges print things get crazy. Ameba. Bridge from below, Dread Return, etc. Now modern dredge has a new ally. That same thing will eventually happen here also.
No lightning bolt was a point earlier. There's nothing stopping the print of that card again. So m20 or whatever could have it. Just like the modern players didn't ever expect it to be legal again for them at the formats creation.
Wizards always makes mistakes. By that I mean they admitted Wild Mongrel was busted and vowed to never print a 2 drop on that power level again. Then came ravager. Even stronger. Then came goyf. Oops. They did it again. Now with the power creep and the fact that while the pup was busted way back then they said by now standards he's just okay. They gave us noose constricter. Almost the same card. Just doesn't change colors, but is in a better tribal deck...
Who's to say frontier won't have it's own set of problem cards? Something like Sphinx's tut couod be that card. Just the format is open right now so y'all don't know it's the boogie man yet. (odds it's that card is pretty low, but it or something else could be the formats Bloodmoon.)
What's the point of that? Eventually ever card you call a problem card will have it's upgrade problem card and they will all be frontier legal.
The price will eventually go up. Why do I say that? Well let's look at the prices of a few cards. Black didn't have a really good removal spell for a single black mana until recently. They printed Fatal Push. So now frontier players get to shell out for that, but guess what... Another example is ol tasinger. He's a modern staple now. Frontier players get to pay for them. Other cards like that will come. Eventually most modern cards will be frontier legal also. These 2 examples are only proof of that.
I get that right now it's a bigger standard. That's cool. My favorite format was old extended back in the day. The past 7 years of magic? Yes please. But guess what.. That's only going to last for a little while before its a big set of blocks also. But with no wizards support, as it seems. So the price of your staples will go up. Possibly surpassing modern staples as they print modern masters... But frontier cards only get printed once. While the format is still new cards not quite on modern power level but frontier and standard staples could see a price spike that makes them hard to obtain. A card like Jace the mind sculpture comes to mind. Modern and right now frontier both get to enjoy these cards at reduced prices one they rotate out of standard, but that price trend could stay high if frontier picks up traction.
Point of all this.. Enjoy frontier while it's ideal, because sooner or later it's going to be modern's little brother.
(I say all that just to make y'all aware of what's down the road. I always support more formats and more opportunities to play one of the games I love)
I was pretty active in the original group on magic-league.com that wanted the modern format, it was originally called "overextended" and had a tested metagame and short ban list for the sets mercadian forward. Then suddenly they decided "new card frames" was more relevant than "no restricted list" and banned a ton of cards arbitrarily with no testing with complete disregard for the magic-league.com community.
Majority of modern decks are independent creations, they are not standard plus nor legacy light, I mean look at affinity, it doesn't even play affinity cards anymore. Until frontier's cardpool justifies that it won't be a format, and not be negative, but any "testing" you're doing is all for not at the end of the day the only reason to play frontier is because jvp isn't good enough anywhere else?
I have an entire frontier box built full of modern / edh staples from the legal sets. My own thoughts are that wizards is definitely not starting at Kahns block.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The only wrench in the plans is if, like the walk back on Modern support, they power up things again. If they add 1 more good removal (Push, Path, Bolt) then its going to be pretty hard for Control not to dominate any new non-rotating set.
Spirits
Well, "technically" if they went at Kahns block with a scalpel and did some serious fox kids One Piece "oh my gods what did they do to you Jimmy?!" stuff I think they could start at Theros, but that is a really big if. Also they probably got to do it with Kaladesh / Aether revolt.
Right now there are four low cmc heavy hitter cards in the format that make things tough for other decks: Reflector Mage, Spell queller, Smuggler's Copter, and Collected Company, along with Saheeli Rai + Felidar Guardian. That isn't including delirium ramp with Emrakul, the promised end. The last one isn't so much broken as it is just not fun to play against.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
Then wizards does a reprint. Well, two things happen:
1) Some sellers start panic selling their cards off asap before people know about the reprint (and usually fail)
2) Others plan on buying up as many cheap copies as they can in an effort to manipulate the market and keep the prices high. This is especially true of mythics since they have a limited supply and with a deep enough pockets and credit rating it is totally possible to do it.
Originally, there was a third party that would also buy up a significant amount of sealed product to sit on since the promise of lotto tickets and high value cards will lead to the box value rising steadily over time, but ever since the Eternal Masters debacle and mass box printings that market has cooled significantly.
So how do you stop this from happening? Easy, you reprint the cards regularly to keep prices in check. Does wizards do this? Technically, they are doing it with modern masters and other masters sets, but the trouble is they aren't doing it for the purpose of market stabilization. Wizards is doing it more so to profit off of the slow perpetual death cycle. It's basically like the plot of Crow Fall: They are the visitors to a dying world gathering resources before the darkness consumes the realm and the lands are fallow.
Do I think that everyone at wizards wants this? Heck no. The real message I'm getting from Wizards after all this time is that the stockholders want money, they got a greedy CEO, and that is forcing them to make compromises that will probably cost them more in the long run. I've been looking them over on payscale as well as reading up articles over the last couple of years and I'm pretty sure the people that want to give us a financial break aren't the ones in the decision chairs.
So why does frontier exist? Well, maybe it is because stores want to move cards, but the reason it resonates with players is because it uses cards that aren't as close to the ominous darkness laying in the center of the multiverse consuming the game.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think we also disagree on why Frontier resonates. Its not because those cards will be reprinted (the list you have above? Nope, never.) its because it gives a DIFFERENT way to use those cards. Its just novelty, like you commented on Standard Mechanics. 'Oh thats nice' as you explore a certain deck that maybe is too weak for Modern, but was not Standard possible.
Thats it. Its a novelty, a distraction, its not even a real format and will get no real Wizards support.
Its a way to use cards that you may still have kicking around, or that stores still have in bulk and want to ship off at a few bucks a pop. Nothing more, nothing less.
Spirits