So, it's a pretty simple question, I don't understand the draw of Frontier. Why do people even want this format? It seems to directly conflict with Standard because the time frame is so short there will be a large amount of Standard legal cards that will be played. So if you don't want to keep paying for Standard cards this does nothing for you, since you will still have to keep up with the Standard legal cards. If it's because you want a format less powerful than Modern, you do realize that Frontier will be short lived at a low power level? Every released set will increase the power level and it will eventually become the little Modern that I have seen some of you say you don't want. I just don't get it?
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Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
The draw of frontier has several fronts. In modern, only a short list of cards really make it to be even FNM playable. There's a lot of pretty good cards in Frontier that don't get played in Modern, and Frontier provides an outlet for those cards to be played instead of rotting in a box somewhere. The average Frontier deck is overall cheaper than modern deck as well. Finally, it provides an outlet for people to play their favorite standard deck of the last few years (tweaked a little), which in most cases wouldn't make it in modern.
Hasp the reason Frontier is popular is because the price of the most expensive cards of the set have not yet spiraled out of control like Tarmogoyf and in some regions the card availability for sets older than M15 is abysmal. Just ask anyone in Japan how it is trying to find even Theros in their region and you'll understand why this format is taking off. People also like Frontier here because for those that just came back it is a much more affordable format than modern and offers a different experience.
I personally like it because the format lacks many of the problem cards modern had due to it's start point. There are no lingering legacy type cards such as Blood Moon, Worship, Lightning bolt, etc and the absence of infect and dredge are a major blessing.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Colt you say those are "problem cards" but those kind of cards add diversity and flavor to a format. If you remove them you don't have anything but a standard type gameplay with a larger card pool. That sounds like a very niche group of people who that appeals to who just love Standard but hate their cards to rotate. Basically you told me the appeal is you don't have to think as hard as Modern on how to approach your matches.
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Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
Colt you say those are "problem cards" but those kind of cards add diversity and flavor to a format. If you remove them you don't have anything but a standard type gameplay with a larger card pool. That sounds like a very niche group of people who that appeals to who just love Standard but hate their cards to rotate. Basically you told me the appeal is you don't have to think as hard as Modern on how to approach your matches.
I think you are approaching this from the wrong direction.
1. Frontier was inevitable the moment WotC announced they were lowering the basic complexity and power level of the game. This occurred previously when they developed modern from Legacy after cutting things like Counterspell from the game. Modern is defined by a small pool of cards from near its beginning or were accidents over time that were stronger then intended, and that pool is going to grow ever slower as time goes on. Frontier is going to be defined by a different pool of cards, one which is weaker/slower then the modern ones and much weaker then infect, and hilariously weaker (like a totally different game) then vintage.
2. Frontier doesn't have to appeal to everyone in existence. I haven't like modern since they banned birthing pod, but some people only liked modern once it was banned. There's no more reason to be alarmed by Frontier as a modern player then Legacy players needed to be alarmed by Modern. It is a new format with a lower entry barrier and a less powerful card pool, and will appeal to people for those reasons.
3. Modern and Legacy are extremely fast formats. If you durdle for even a turn you tend to lose, while in Frontier the game is going to be slower and grindier because it excludes all infect, storm and other fast combo elements as well as rush aggro (suicide zoo, new burn, etc).
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
If you're going to ask what the draw to frontier is and you're going to respond like that, it's clear you don't really care about the draw of frontier. I'm not going to lock this thread, but any further ignoring of actual arguments and responses with comments downtalking fans of the format will be followed up with warnings. Likewise, calling out trolling is also not the prefered way, please stick to reporting if you believe someone trolls.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Lou i'm not trying to troll, I just legitimately don't understand where some of this reasoning is coming from. For example that it will be a much slower format. There are and have been turn 4 kills possible in Standard over the last few years, i.e. Atarka Red was very prominent. It's absolutely going to be a thing with fast zoo in Frontier. To have the expectation that won't be the case just isn't grounded in reality. 2008Stickman gave the best reasoning so far to me in that he just wants to play cards that aren't strong enough for Modern. That's legitimate to me. A reason of wanting a slower format isn't legitimate from my perspective, because unless the ban list is huge people will find a way to win on turn 4 or even 3 since you are equally limited on hate cards.
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I think the draw of Frontier is that it doesn't rotate and plays way closer to the standard midrange grindfests of recent years, which people seem to like. I've never played a rotating format and I understand completely not wanting to buy into new decks every six months. I don't love creature-based midrange strategies, but I can understand that for people who do, Frontier seems fine.
I'll be cubing and playing EDH, but anything that increases the pool for cards that have a home outside of trade binders, I'm for it.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Lou i'm not trying to troll, I just legitimately don't understand where some of this reasoning is coming from. For example that it will be a much slower format. There are and have been turn 4 kills possible in Standard over the last few years, i.e. Atarka Red was very prominent. It's absolutely going to be a thing with fast zoo in Frontier. To have the expectation that won't be the case just isn't grounded in reality. 2008Stickman gave the best reasoning so far to me in that he just wants to play cards that aren't strong enough for Modern. That's legitimate to me. A reason of wanting a slower format isn't legitimate from my perspective, because unless the ban list is huge people will find a way to win on turn 4 or even 3 since you are equally limited on hate cards.
At this point this feels more like someone saying "I think this is a complete waste of time so try selling this format to me" and to you good sir I say go buy into atarka red or some moderate deck and try it out. I explained the reasons for the format and if they don't make sense to you at that point then it sounds more like an unwillingness to digest the points given or an unwillingness to realize that infect and many early modern cards are much more problematic than the stuff that is showing up in standard over the last two years. The most powerful sets recently have been Kahns block and now this durdly thing called Kaladesh, but the worst cards from both are nothing compared to Leyline of Sanctity, Lightning Bolt, Blood Moon, infect as a deck in general, Affinity, phyrexian mana, dredge... the list can keep going on and on here. Those past mechanics enable way more Turn 4 right now or even Turn 3 kills, or in the case of Leylines and Blood moon, lock the game down and make it an "I lose, you win" situation before the game ever gets finished. You just don't have that kind of lopsided situation right now in Frontier.
Also I take posts like this with a healthy bit of skepticism because the drama of modern and it's dilemmas have been pushing people towards seeing frontier as a new enemy format that threatens it's support and existence. The entire reason this format has traction is because people in a region can't afford or get the cards to play modern, and people in other regions like it for the same reason. Also due to it being so new, standard is literally supporting it, so there's not as much super spikey stuff happening outside of origins.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The Modern format (post Splinter Twin ban) doesn't appeal to me. There's too much linear nonsense. I want to be jamming Snapcaster Mages, not trying to kill on turn 3. I enjoy Legacy and Pauper quite a bit; Pauper is an extremely niche format, and I have not bought into the dual lands to play Legacy in real life. I'd be more inclined to buy into Legacy if it were at all supported; it just isn't. Frontier is very young, but I have enjoyed the gameplay of the format far more than the past couple of Standards.
And on a slightly more flippant note, it's the only format where you get to use a playset of DTT and TC. That's a wonderful thing.
I would like to chime back in on something. I posted the reasons for Frontier being attractive, but I myself do not play for two reasons.
One, I'd like the card pool to expand more. This will naturally occur, so I do expect to play at some point.
Two, and this is the most important reason:
Fetches. Last I studied the "tier 1" decks, they ran a lot of fetches. Theres really no reason not to, and I fear that this could cause deck prices to take off if Frontier ever gets any Wizards support.
In order for me to want to dive headfirst into Frontier, one of two things would have to happen. One, Banhammer fetches. Two, we need some kind of blood moon boogeyman card. Doesn't necessarily have to be blood moon, but anything that punishes overuse of nonbasics.
I simply dont understand those arguements. Let my put it that way: Why do you think - or for how long do you think - the format will stay that way?
It hast just a few sets in the moment, but when time goes on, will it not be a cardpool limited by design mistakes just as modern is?
It excludes those named mechanics at the moment, but if they ever make a comeback, or something similar comes around, how can this format battle such effects?
If the format takes of, becomes an official format even, how long will the format be cheap? If its an even bigger success than modern, how long before it becomes more expensive?
Wizards didn´t combat the prices in modern, why should they do it with frontier?
I see why those reasons have a draw to some people, but i dont think it will stay that way for too long. Whats the incentive of the format once those things are gone?
No one is saying its going to be cheaper forever. The point is that it's a cheap doorway right now for eternal. This is the point that is flying over posters heads when discussing this.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yes but for the format to stick around it needs to have a different appeal than modern. If I have to spend $800+ to play Frontier, why wouldn't I just play Modern?
It's a legitimate concern. I almost wish that it doesn't get wizards support, so that it's price tag doesn't jump that high and that players have something semi-eternal to play.
Frontier, the final format. These are the voyages of the magic planewalkers. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new decks, to seek out new synergies and new comboes, to boldly go where no one has gone before!
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Yes but for the format to stick around it needs to have a different appeal than modern. If I have to spend $800+ to play Frontier, why wouldn't I just play Modern?
It's a legitimate concern. I almost wish that it doesn't get wizards support, so that it's price tag doesn't jump that high and that players have something semi-eternal to play.
This is why, I think, they need to ban fetch lands. You are completely right. Unless you just MUST dodge old mechanics and cannot live in a world with Dredge and Infect, if you dont ban the fetch's, Frontier is just Moderns little brother.
Ban the fetch lands, and you have something unique.
I've seen many people be drawn to Frontier for the very simple following reason: Lightning Bolt isn't around to invalidate the existence of 85% of creatures with 3 or less toughness.
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Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I've seen many people be drawn to Frontier for the very simple following reason: Lightning Bolt isn't around to invalidate the existence of 85% of creatures with 3 or less toughness.
It's kind of a requirement, since modern is saturated with low toughness creatures. If Frontier evolves into the same thing, Fatal Push will be rampant in it. If someone wants to avoid it, they should probably stick with Commander and Standard.
Edit: if the meta shifted to more midrange/long range strategies, lightning Bolt use would drop some. But I think the odds of this are low.
I'm going to throw in my comment - I'm not a huge proponent of Frontier, and I have no interest in investing heavily on cards that I'd need for the decks. I do however love brewing my own decks. Frontier has a lot of appeal to me because the format is very far from solved, and there exists a lot of uncovered synergies. Over the time this will wear off naturally, but fot now frontier is pretty fun.
Yes but for the format to stick around it needs to have a different appeal than modern. If I have to spend $800+ to play Frontier, why wouldn't I just play Modern?
It's a legitimate concern. I almost wish that it doesn't get wizards support, so that it's price tag doesn't jump that high and that players have something semi-eternal to play.
This is why, I think, they need to ban fetch lands. You are completely right. Unless you just MUST dodge old mechanics and cannot live in a world with Dredge and Infect, if you dont ban the fetch's, Frontier is just Moderns little brother.
Ban the fetch lands, and you have something unique.
A manabase similar to several standard-formats is hardly unique.
Comparing any land base to a standard land base is unfair, as everything was technically in standard at some point (or whatever the predecessor to standard was when original duals were played was called)
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Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
I personally like it because the format lacks many of the problem cards modern had due to it's start point. There are no lingering legacy type cards such as Blood Moon, Worship, Lightning bolt, etc and the absence of infect and dredge are a major blessing.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
I think you are approaching this from the wrong direction.
1. Frontier was inevitable the moment WotC announced they were lowering the basic complexity and power level of the game. This occurred previously when they developed modern from Legacy after cutting things like Counterspell from the game. Modern is defined by a small pool of cards from near its beginning or were accidents over time that were stronger then intended, and that pool is going to grow ever slower as time goes on. Frontier is going to be defined by a different pool of cards, one which is weaker/slower then the modern ones and much weaker then infect, and hilariously weaker (like a totally different game) then vintage.
2. Frontier doesn't have to appeal to everyone in existence. I haven't like modern since they banned birthing pod, but some people only liked modern once it was banned. There's no more reason to be alarmed by Frontier as a modern player then Legacy players needed to be alarmed by Modern. It is a new format with a lower entry barrier and a less powerful card pool, and will appeal to people for those reasons.
3. Modern and Legacy are extremely fast formats. If you durdle for even a turn you tend to lose, while in Frontier the game is going to be slower and grindier because it excludes all infect, storm and other fast combo elements as well as rush aggro (suicide zoo, new burn, etc).
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
Go troll somewhere else.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
I'll be cubing and playing EDH, but anything that increases the pool for cards that have a home outside of trade binders, I'm for it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
At this point this feels more like someone saying "I think this is a complete waste of time so try selling this format to me" and to you good sir I say go buy into atarka red or some moderate deck and try it out. I explained the reasons for the format and if they don't make sense to you at that point then it sounds more like an unwillingness to digest the points given or an unwillingness to realize that infect and many early modern cards are much more problematic than the stuff that is showing up in standard over the last two years. The most powerful sets recently have been Kahns block and now this durdly thing called Kaladesh, but the worst cards from both are nothing compared to Leyline of Sanctity, Lightning Bolt, Blood Moon, infect as a deck in general, Affinity, phyrexian mana, dredge... the list can keep going on and on here. Those past mechanics enable way more Turn 4 right now or even Turn 3 kills, or in the case of Leylines and Blood moon, lock the game down and make it an "I lose, you win" situation before the game ever gets finished. You just don't have that kind of lopsided situation right now in Frontier.
Also I take posts like this with a healthy bit of skepticism because the drama of modern and it's dilemmas have been pushing people towards seeing frontier as a new enemy format that threatens it's support and existence. The entire reason this format has traction is because people in a region can't afford or get the cards to play modern, and people in other regions like it for the same reason. Also due to it being so new, standard is literally supporting it, so there's not as much super spikey stuff happening outside of origins.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
And on a slightly more flippant note, it's the only format where you get to use a playset of DTT and TC. That's a wonderful thing.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
One, I'd like the card pool to expand more. This will naturally occur, so I do expect to play at some point.
Two, and this is the most important reason:
Fetches. Last I studied the "tier 1" decks, they ran a lot of fetches. Theres really no reason not to, and I fear that this could cause deck prices to take off if Frontier ever gets any Wizards support.
In order for me to want to dive headfirst into Frontier, one of two things would have to happen. One, Banhammer fetches. Two, we need some kind of blood moon boogeyman card. Doesn't necessarily have to be blood moon, but anything that punishes overuse of nonbasics.
No one is saying its going to be cheaper forever. The point is that it's a cheap doorway right now for eternal. This is the point that is flying over posters heads when discussing this.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's a legitimate concern. I almost wish that it doesn't get wizards support, so that it's price tag doesn't jump that high and that players have something semi-eternal to play.
This is why, I think, they need to ban fetch lands. You are completely right. Unless you just MUST dodge old mechanics and cannot live in a world with Dredge and Infect, if you dont ban the fetch's, Frontier is just Moderns little brother.
Ban the fetch lands, and you have something unique.
Spirits
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
It's kind of a requirement, since modern is saturated with low toughness creatures. If Frontier evolves into the same thing, Fatal Push will be rampant in it. If someone wants to avoid it, they should probably stick with Commander and Standard.
Edit: if the meta shifted to more midrange/long range strategies, lightning Bolt use would drop some. But I think the odds of this are low.
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Comparing any land base to a standard land base is unfair, as everything was technically in standard at some point (or whatever the predecessor to standard was when original duals were played was called)