On the upside, there's graveyard hate in the format in the form of Anafenza, the Foremost and Kolitas, traitor of Ghet. There aren't any ways to really hate on the other guys graveyard, though. Hallowed Moonlight can help somewhat against some search engines, though, and really the only mechanic that might be problematic in this regard is Delirium. Also, I kind of like the way this format looks from above because finally Sultai has tools to work with that it needs, and we get to combine Soulflayer with Odric, Lunarch Marshal along with all this other insanity that easily gets overlooked.
Honestly, I think the two biggest barriers of entry to Frontier involves people using the TcgPlayer organize by price button and the latest net deck resources to tell them what to buy. No one knows what is going to really break out in the format and all the prices out there are from cards that performed well in other formats. The best we all can do is look at cards that are objectively good on their own and then shuffle our way through the slog of, well, everything.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Seriously, are you all overthinking into Frontier too much?
Its your money. Its your decision to play Frontier or not.
(1) Give it a try. Like it, continue on. Dont like it, stop playing. Simple!
Relative to Tiny Leaders, why bother relating Frontier to Tiny Leaders? Refer to Point 1.
Relative to Modern, why bother relating Frontier to Modern? Refer to Point 1.
Relative to Standard, why bother relating Frontier to Standard? Refer to Point 1.
Relative to card prices, why bother relating Frontier to card prices? Refer to Point 1.
This thread feels like "3 blind men describing an elephant".
The one case where they did reprint lands was Return to Ravnica, so really I'm not too sure where you are getting off saying they aren't going to reprint a past land cycle in a new set. The one thing I don't think they are doing is reprinting any land cycle they view as a problematic design, and given the new BFZ lands they definitely are considering shock lands a bad design at this time. Again, you are coming off as sounding like you have some kind of stake in all of this land reprinting stuff. Do you own Scalding tarn and are afraid it's value is going to tank to the ground?
I do not own anything: if you notice my posts it is my greatest request in magic - that mana base can be reused between standard seasons. However on my baseline argument: the format will not solve the problems coming with modern, rather it is a stop-gap method that is not durable. The original reason was accessibility (easiest measured through price, thus indirectly also meaning price). Now I argue that this won't be fixed with a new eternal format just because it's new: it will only fix the problem temporary for ~3 years or so. After that cards like collected company will be totally busted and highly expensive. (on a side node I feel coco has more potential to rise in such a new format than baby jace). Similarly, and worse since you can't evade them - each non mono coloured deck needs them, fetch lands and other "strong" dual lands.
Your counter is that "WOTC will reprint those cards". But every set that has started after they announced NWO has shown that they are very very reluctant to reprint high priced cards: even if reprinted they get rarity bumps, thus making them not really more accessible. There has been no indication whatsoever that they will reprint rares. An argument that they will and therefore we shouldn't worry is hence invalid.
This leads me back to my original statement: a new frontier format will fail just as bad as modern currently does in as few as 3-4 years. To "waste" time to get this format rolling regularly with official FNMs (pushing away modern days) is hence not clever. Rather we should look for a more robust method of keeping eternal formats more in a flux: one could think of mass bans where tharmagoyfs, bolts, glistering elves, urza lands and paths are banned from the format at once. And in the future keep a very active banning regiment where basically a deck that is more than 3 years "T1" is expected to lose its key card to shake up the meta.
I think everyone realizes that no traditional eternal format is going to succeed in 3-4 years simply because of MTG finance. The part that people seem to completely miss in these discussions is that WoTC wants the modern format to fail in a non-catastrophic way, and the way they have done this is by their mythic and rare policy for card power. Basically, they know that only X number of card is going to get printed and X-Y number of cards will end up on the second hand market. In addition to creating chase cards that encourage pack openings, the higher rarities reduce the quantity of cards available for constructed in the eternal format. Without reprintings, this eventually leads old cards to become prohibitively expensive and thereby force players buying cards on the second hand market to buy newer cards.
At least, that is how it was supposed to work. The issue is that the strategy backfired spectacularly because of the tournament scene and net decking. Those two things kept the spotlight on cards that long since left rotation and instead of people giving up on older cards, people ended up hunting for these cards with a tenacity the company wasn't expecting. Card prices skyrocketed and the community outcries for reprints forced the company to start modern masters. In fact, this is a major facet in the restructuring of the printings we see today. The issue is that the company is still strapped to the rarity = power paradigm they had invented to try and keep cards flowing from pack openings and force the second hand market players to buy new cards.
So the truth is I actually don't think Wizards will make a new eternal format. That's like saying someone is going to make an Everquest 1 clone in 2016 and expect it to work. What I do think they are going to do is make a format that has a non-rotating set of base cards that everyone can own, and a slowly rotating set of sub-theme cards related to the most recently printed sets. This way they don't have to change their reprint policy and have a format they can enforce price control on via regular reprintings.
So on the subject of Frontier, I feel that it's the springboard format that MTG needs right now that strikes a balance between affordability and card power, plus lets players work within the better designed card spaces of the more recent sets. There will also always be a new "frontier" format, but we wont see that happen for at least 5 years. In fact, I think it's about the 5 year mark that prices started to get really crazy with MTG sets of old. The more recent print runs had much higher volumes so we may not see this happen as rapidly as before, with the notable exception being Magic Origins with flip walkers and possibly aether revolt due to the MtG recession. They should never have printed the flip walkers.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hi all, I'm new here. Not the time to read all pages, but I got a question : did Wizard announced officialy something about Frontier? And if frontier is confirmed, will modern disapear? Thx all.
Hi Wagawaga and welcome to the forums! No, modern is not going anywhere and is still receiving support in the form of modern masters 2017 this coming march (most people forget this is even happening imo). Frontier is currently not officially supported by WoTC as it was started only recently in Japan. Right now a lot of people are excited for it since it's allowing people who just came into magic in the last two years to have a format where they can play decks and not end up spending a ton of money (yet). However, I think frontier is here to stay until Wizards does announce whatever the next window is going to be for eternal play. The primary issue is that there just isn't a good supply of the older sets floating around and it's hard for people to get their hands on many of the most played cards from the early 2000s. So, in essence modern will still be here just like legacy and Frontier will probably slowly grow in popularity.
Also, now ran into another odd ball deck in frontier. Basically, I didn't expect to see someone actually attempt to make Hedron Alignment actually work, but with all the delve and draw power from Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, etc, whoever the guy was actually made a deck that would win out of no where. Still not sure if that is a card that someone really builds around, though. It seemed like he made a tutelage mill deck and then added those in as an alternative win con.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
On the upside, there's graveyard hate in the format in the form of Anafenza, the Foremost and Kolitas, traitor of Ghet. There aren't any ways to really hate on the other guys graveyard, though. Hallowed Moonlight can help somewhat against some search engines, though, and really the only mechanic that might be problematic in this regard is Delirium. Also, I kind of like the way this format looks from above because finally Sultai has tools to work with that it needs, and we get to combine Soulflayer with Odric, Lunarch Marshal along with all this other insanity that easily gets overlooked.
On the upside, there's graveyard hate in the format in the form of Anafenza, the Foremost and Kolitas, traitor of Ghet. There aren't any ways to really hate on the other guys graveyard, though. Hallowed Moonlight can help somewhat against some search engines, though, and really the only mechanic that might be problematic in this regard is Delirium. Also, I kind of like the way this format looks from above because finally Sultai has tools to work with that it needs, and we get to combine Soulflayer with Odric, Lunarch Marshal along with all this other insanity that easily gets overlooked.
Oh wow, I forgot that was even reprinted in m15. I thought the last printing was in m13! Yeah that would probably be the best GY hate there is in the format.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So I got done with a few more games and at this point there is no doubt in my mind that they are going to have a ban list eventually. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are insanely strong draw and fixing engines even in Frontier. I was kind of surprised that Delve doesn't actually get in the way of Delirium that much, but it seems that since the player chooses what to exile from the yard, they just pitch all the refuse they get from self milling into there. I will comment that Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Liliana, The Last Hope seems like a match made in heaven, though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
liliana + jace were in the same standard set - yet they did not see much play even though there was a blue-black deck (zombies).
They don't really synergize together outside of making use of the graveyard to either get something back or cast a spell. After a couple of matches I think I'm starting to find the deck I want to play in Frontier, though I'm going RUG dragons.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So I got done with a few more games and at this point there is no doubt in my mind that they are going to have a ban list eventually. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are insanely strong draw and fixing engines even in Frontier. I was kind of surprised that Delve doesn't actually get in the way of Delirium that much, but it seems that since the player chooses what to exile from the yard, they just pitch all the refuse they get from self milling into there. I will comment that Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Liliana, The Last Hope seems like a match made in heaven, though.
Once again, and it's my opinion, starting with M15 just because of that new frame thing is a bad idea. Origin would make a much better starting point, as it heralded the "new Magic order" in blocks and sets.
M15 + KTK block will supply the same issues that made Modern expensive and broken (in a nutshell, not starting another existential discussion about Modern here): fetches + "cheat" mechanics, speaking of Delve here.
Re: fetches, they always favored certain types while we had an assymetry (Onslaught fetches only) and now allow a very standardized way of working. Frontier will have the same issues, you'll just be a bit slower because you would fetch into lands like Canopy Vista etc T1 instead of Temple Garden, but the underlying issue would remain the same.
Origins and forward don't have this issue. Delirum is balanced enough, no fetches but still dual lands with basic types, etc.
So I got done with a few more games and at this point there is no doubt in my mind that they are going to have a ban list eventually. Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are insanely strong draw and fixing engines even in Frontier. I was kind of surprised that Delve doesn't actually get in the way of Delirium that much, but it seems that since the player chooses what to exile from the yard, they just pitch all the refuse they get from self milling into there. I will comment that Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Liliana, The Last Hope seems like a match made in heaven, though.
Once again, and it's my opinion, starting with M15 just because of that new frame thing is a bad idea. Origin would make a much better starting point, as it heralded the "new Magic order" in blocks and sets.
M15 + KTK block will supply the same issues that made Modern expensive and broken (in a nutshell, not starting another existential discussion about Modern here): fetches + "cheat" mechanics, speaking of Delve here.
Re: fetches, they always favored certain types while we had an assymetry (Onslaught fetches only) and now allow a very standardized way of working. Frontier will have the same issues, you'll just be a bit slower because you would fetch into lands like Canopy Vista etc T1 instead of Temple Garden, but the underlying issue would remain the same.
Origins and forward don't have this issue. Delirum is balanced enough, no fetches but still dual lands with basic types, etc.
To be frank, I think a lot of people are surprised that M15 and up got included in frontier because two of the big changes Wizards made was the elimination of core sets and moving to a two block structure. In fact, it makes a lot more sense to start at BFZ and up since that way they are in the new design space and don't have any of the older cards lurking around. However, if they did that then it would basically be the current standard. My assumption (and this is not a very popular one, but quite possibly true), is that Hareruya jumped the gun early on the new window WoTC was planning and added the prior sets with the new border to form frontier. WoTC likely is going to have a new eternal format that is BFZ and up. In fact, it's likely the format that's supposed to push Magic Digital Next, since by next year around this time we should be far enough along they can launch it. If they do start a new window I'm sort of hoping they keep M15 and up and do considerable changes to how they print the land cycles instead of invalidating a lot of peoples purchases. No one is going to complain if good mana fixing can be had at uncommon instead of rare at this point.
Why am I imagining the modern forums on MTGSalvation are going to be "colorful" when this happens. A lot of people over there are worried about Modern attendance dropping and that isn't going to help in the slightest, though I'm more on wizards side at this point with generating a new window.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Why am I imagining the modern forums on MTGSalvation are going to be "colorful" when this happens. A lot of people over there are worried about Modern attendance dropping and that isn't going to help in the slightest, though I'm more on wizards side at this point with generating a new window.
A lot of those worried Modern players probably weren't very sympathetic when Legacy players felt their format of choice was threatened by Modern.
I say let people play whatever games they want. Nobody owes it to you to play and support the format of your preference. Legacy has survived (despite slowed growth) because it has enough appeal to retain and attract players. Modern too will endure if and only if people in sufficient numbers still want to play it. End of story.
I would never touch this without M15. No gy hate in a format that runs Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Grim Flayer, Rally the Ancestors and Emrakul? No thanks! It already doesn't have Hero's Downfall.
I hope realized how powerful cards like Grim Flayer are with Treasure Cruise. The format needs Crypt.
The one thing I'm hoping for going forward after all the disasters this year with Magic is that Wizards will finally make the smart decision and get rid of New World Order. The entire system was built to sell packs and remove the need for an introductory set, but all it's done is force cards that would have originally been common (Goblin Kaboomist) into the rare slots and by extension cards that would have been true rares (Mox Opal) into a super rare mythic slot. If I opened a pack of magic I'd much rather see Goblin Kaboomist than a Falkenrath Reaver. The game going forward needs more cards that add unexpected angles to the game kind of like with Dominion, where the win conditions are a bit more varied and things are a lot less cut and dry than player 2 lands Emrakul, The Promised End and forces someone into an unwinnable state before continuing the game a few turns and winning then.
Frontier (or any new eternal window) is a good opportunity for Wizards to turn the game around and start changing how they print cards so as to favor the players rather than just simply themselves and exploiting the human condition. And no one would even mind if they were exploiting the human condition if what they were doing the last decade didn't impact the entirety of the secondary market. Thanks to how they did printings they basically destroyed the second hand market in terms of card availability and cost, which is part of the reason they even need a new eternal window like frontier to begin with.
Well, hopefully I didn't veer too off topic with that rant. It's just that getting older and seeing how the game shaped up thanks to a company headed by complete buffoonery and poor long term decisions is a bit much. Right now I feel almost 100% certain that Wizards thinks they can turn the game around by entering the digital age while sticking to a print standard that has proven to be fatal to the games health long term.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Frontier (or any new eternal window) is a good opportunity for Wizards to turn the game around and start changing how they print cards so as to favor the players rather than just simply themselves and exploiting the human condition.
Frontier is an opportunity for Wizards to react to how they print their own cards??? HAHAHA! Frontier is an opportunity for VENDORS and INVESTORS to react to how Wizards prints cards now, which is to print more of everything. Print it into oblivion. Remind yourself that it's the players that should be coming up with new formats to fit their needs, not a damn store or investor trying to dump overprinted product in the guise of a new format.
Want a format that favors the players? I do! How about we get behind something that is from the players instead of this.
And no one would even mind if they were exploiting the human condition if what they were doing the last decade didn't impact the entirety of the secondary market. Thanks to how they did printings they basically destroyed the second hand market in terms of card availability and cost, which is part of the reason they even need a new eternal window like frontier to begin with.
You prove my point in describing frontier as a reaction by vendors and investors to printing levels. Which is what I've been telling people as soon as this thread popped up. You made my desire in pointing out this painfully obvious fact much easier this time, thank you.
I'm sorry to point this out but every person backing this proposed abomination of a format has their vision of the requisites for a healthy format backwards. Healthy formats are visions of players. Not the people taking their money.
Also, sorry for coming in here and not reading the whole thread: so many pages to read! I've been reading about this format for some time now and I don't like the idea of it. For starters, and this is only me, I don't like how Theros was left out. A block many people consider quite weak wouldn't have been dangerous to include. Yeah, I see the thing about the new card design and all that, but it really isn't a good excuse, as reprints from older sets would be obviously playable.
Modern is not cheap at all, but that's normal. Eternal formats tend to be so. Maybe the issue is the lack of variety in decks? Well, it also happens with eternal formats unless new cards create new combos or synergies. Making Frontier is just postponing the same that currently happens with Modern.
Maybe WotC could create a new slow-rotating format, like Extended was some time after its creation. Like from Innistrad until now, rotating a couple of blocks avery other year, or a block a year. This way we would still have a lot of cards to play with, but all the Zendikar and New Phyrexia "powerful" ones would be out.
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Before the glory of Yawgmoth, yes, even this makes sense.
Maybe WotC could create a new slow-rotating format, like Extended was some time after its creation. Like from Innistrad until now, rotating a couple of blocks avery other year, or a block a year. This way we would still have a lot of cards to play with, but all the Zendikar and New Phyrexia "powerful" ones would be out.
Right. That's what's being put forward by myself and a number of others in this thread.
Also, sorry for coming in here and not reading the whole thread: so many pages to read! I've been reading about this format for some time now and I don't like the idea of it. For starters, and this is only me, I don't like how Theros was left out. A block many people consider quite weak wouldn't have been dangerous to include. Yeah, I see the thing about the new card design and all that, but it really isn't a good excuse, as reprints from older sets would be obviously playable.
Modern is not cheap at all, but that's normal. Eternal formats tend to be so. Maybe the issue is the lack of variety in decks? Well, it also happens with eternal formats unless new cards create new combos or synergies. Making Frontier is just postponing the same that currently happens with Modern.
Maybe WotC could create a new slow-rotating format, like Extended was some time after its creation. Like from Innistrad until now, rotating a couple of blocks avery other year, or a block a year. This way we would still have a lot of cards to play with, but all the Zendikar and New Phyrexia "powerful" ones would be out.
Well, Modern has more problems than card availability. You know how in Dragonball Z the fighters power levels just kept going up each season until they were blowing up planets, and then Toriyama decided to try to do a power reset with Dragonball GT and that ended up with the fighters getting even more powerful by the end of it? Modern has that problem.
Also, people coming in here and saying that a format is broken because it is made by vendors are right. The problem is the players don't make new formats: we make variants of the vendor based format that fit whatever vision of the game we tend to have and frontier for a lot of people is that vision of a good format. I for one like it as a player because the sets include just enough hate to combat the strategies used in the format without it turning into rock paper scissors. The downside is that I really think Theros should be included. The reason they didn't include it was because it didn't have the new border with the hollow tag and unfortunately I got a feeling that WoTC is going to be starting their next window even further up with BFZ. As I stated in a couple of threads, my hypothesis on this entire format is that Hareyuya wanted to get more attendance due to standard not being as popular as they liked and jumped the gun early on a new eternal window before WoTC did it. WoTC is waiting for Magic Digital Next at the very least so they can release a paper version of the format that game supports.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also, people coming in here and saying that a format is broken because it is made by vendors are right. The problem is the players don't make new formats: we make variants of the vendor based format that fit whatever vision of the game we tend to have and frontier for a lot of people is that vision of a good format.
I am confused. I always thought Legacy and EDH (wotc renamed it to commander) were from players. The other formats true they were mostly from wotc, but they are also mostly dead with the exception of vintage and standard and modern currently? unless you mean TO, but a TO will only do it if there is enough interest and still it is player driven (at least for Legacy and EDH)
Also, people coming in here and saying that a format is broken because it is made by vendors are right. The problem is the players don't make new formats: we make variants of the vendor based format that fit whatever vision of the game we tend to have and frontier for a lot of people is that vision of a good format.
I am confused. I always thought Legacy and EDH (wotc renamed it to commander) were from players. The other formats true they were mostly from wotc, but they are also mostly dead with the exception of vintage and standard and modern currently? unless you mean TO, but a TO will only do it if there is enough interest and still it is player driven (at least for Legacy and EDH)
My perspective on formats tends to be that ultimately we have WoTC printing cards and creating standard, which rotates. From that us players created eternal formats so we could keep legally playing our cards that rotated out. Then we birthed all the casual formats to try and fill in the gaps, such as an affordable entry eternal format in pauper and a casual format in the form of EDH. Now a vendor has created frontier based on the new card border and I'm envisioning us players probably morphing or creating a better version of it... which probably includes bringing Theros into the fold. I personally think that they jumped the gun on this because most likely this new card border and holo mark will fit into MTG Digital Next somehow, but we'll have to wait and see.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Well, Modern has more problems than card availability. You know how in Dragonball Z the fighters power levels just kept going up each season until they were blowing up planets, and then Toriyama decided to try to do a power reset with Dragonball GT and that ended up with the fighters getting even more powerful by the end of it? Modern has that problem.
I know, power level and lack of viable deck options is a real problem in Modern. That's why I suggested maybe a slow-rotating format could fill the gap between the allegedly boring Standard and the overpowered Modern. Removing blocks with powerful cards like Innistrad, RTR or Scars of Mirrodin could refresh all these things.
Anyway, good to know others share my disappointment with Theros not being in Frontier
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Before the glory of Yawgmoth, yes, even this makes sense.
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On the upside, there's graveyard hate in the format in the form of Anafenza, the Foremost and Kolitas, traitor of Ghet. There aren't any ways to really hate on the other guys graveyard, though. Hallowed Moonlight can help somewhat against some search engines, though, and really the only mechanic that might be problematic in this regard is Delirium. Also, I kind of like the way this format looks from above because finally Sultai has tools to work with that it needs, and we get to combine Soulflayer with Odric, Lunarch Marshal along with all this other insanity that easily gets overlooked.
Honestly, I think the two biggest barriers of entry to Frontier involves people using the TcgPlayer organize by price button and the latest net deck resources to tell them what to buy. No one knows what is going to really break out in the format and all the prices out there are from cards that performed well in other formats. The best we all can do is look at cards that are objectively good on their own and then shuffle our way through the slog of, well, everything.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Its your money. Its your decision to play Frontier or not.
(1) Give it a try. Like it, continue on. Dont like it, stop playing. Simple!
Relative to Tiny Leaders, why bother relating Frontier to Tiny Leaders? Refer to Point 1.
Relative to Modern, why bother relating Frontier to Modern? Refer to Point 1.
Relative to Standard, why bother relating Frontier to Standard? Refer to Point 1.
Relative to card prices, why bother relating Frontier to card prices? Refer to Point 1.
This thread feels like "3 blind men describing an elephant".
I think everyone realizes that no traditional eternal format is going to succeed in 3-4 years simply because of MTG finance. The part that people seem to completely miss in these discussions is that WoTC wants the modern format to fail in a non-catastrophic way, and the way they have done this is by their mythic and rare policy for card power. Basically, they know that only X number of card is going to get printed and X-Y number of cards will end up on the second hand market. In addition to creating chase cards that encourage pack openings, the higher rarities reduce the quantity of cards available for constructed in the eternal format. Without reprintings, this eventually leads old cards to become prohibitively expensive and thereby force players buying cards on the second hand market to buy newer cards.
At least, that is how it was supposed to work. The issue is that the strategy backfired spectacularly because of the tournament scene and net decking. Those two things kept the spotlight on cards that long since left rotation and instead of people giving up on older cards, people ended up hunting for these cards with a tenacity the company wasn't expecting. Card prices skyrocketed and the community outcries for reprints forced the company to start modern masters. In fact, this is a major facet in the restructuring of the printings we see today. The issue is that the company is still strapped to the rarity = power paradigm they had invented to try and keep cards flowing from pack openings and force the second hand market players to buy new cards.
So the truth is I actually don't think Wizards will make a new eternal format. That's like saying someone is going to make an Everquest 1 clone in 2016 and expect it to work. What I do think they are going to do is make a format that has a non-rotating set of base cards that everyone can own, and a slowly rotating set of sub-theme cards related to the most recently printed sets. This way they don't have to change their reprint policy and have a format they can enforce price control on via regular reprintings.
So on the subject of Frontier, I feel that it's the springboard format that MTG needs right now that strikes a balance between affordability and card power, plus lets players work within the better designed card spaces of the more recent sets. There will also always be a new "frontier" format, but we wont see that happen for at least 5 years. In fact, I think it's about the 5 year mark that prices started to get really crazy with MTG sets of old. The more recent print runs had much higher volumes so we may not see this happen as rapidly as before, with the notable exception being Magic Origins with flip walkers and possibly aether revolt due to the MtG recession. They should never have printed the flip walkers.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hi Wagawaga and welcome to the forums! No, modern is not going anywhere and is still receiving support in the form of modern masters 2017 this coming march (most people forget this is even happening imo). Frontier is currently not officially supported by WoTC as it was started only recently in Japan. Right now a lot of people are excited for it since it's allowing people who just came into magic in the last two years to have a format where they can play decks and not end up spending a ton of money (yet). However, I think frontier is here to stay until Wizards does announce whatever the next window is going to be for eternal play. The primary issue is that there just isn't a good supply of the older sets floating around and it's hard for people to get their hands on many of the most played cards from the early 2000s. So, in essence modern will still be here just like legacy and Frontier will probably slowly grow in popularity.
Also, now ran into another odd ball deck in frontier. Basically, I didn't expect to see someone actually attempt to make Hedron Alignment actually work, but with all the delve and draw power from Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, etc, whoever the guy was actually made a deck that would win out of no where. Still not sure if that is a card that someone really builds around, though. It seemed like he made a tutelage mill deck and then added those in as an alternative win con.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Oh wow, I forgot that was even reprinted in m15. I thought the last printing was in m13! Yeah that would probably be the best GY hate there is in the format.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They don't really synergize together outside of making use of the graveyard to either get something back or cast a spell. After a couple of matches I think I'm starting to find the deck I want to play in Frontier, though I'm going RUG dragons.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Once again, and it's my opinion, starting with M15 just because of that new frame thing is a bad idea. Origin would make a much better starting point, as it heralded the "new Magic order" in blocks and sets.
M15 + KTK block will supply the same issues that made Modern expensive and broken (in a nutshell, not starting another existential discussion about Modern here): fetches + "cheat" mechanics, speaking of Delve here.
Re: fetches, they always favored certain types while we had an assymetry (Onslaught fetches only) and now allow a very standardized way of working. Frontier will have the same issues, you'll just be a bit slower because you would fetch into lands like Canopy Vista etc T1 instead of Temple Garden, but the underlying issue would remain the same.
Origins and forward don't have this issue. Delirum is balanced enough, no fetches but still dual lands with basic types, etc.
To be frank, I think a lot of people are surprised that M15 and up got included in frontier because two of the big changes Wizards made was the elimination of core sets and moving to a two block structure. In fact, it makes a lot more sense to start at BFZ and up since that way they are in the new design space and don't have any of the older cards lurking around. However, if they did that then it would basically be the current standard. My assumption (and this is not a very popular one, but quite possibly true), is that Hareruya jumped the gun early on the new window WoTC was planning and added the prior sets with the new border to form frontier. WoTC likely is going to have a new eternal format that is BFZ and up. In fact, it's likely the format that's supposed to push Magic Digital Next, since by next year around this time we should be far enough along they can launch it. If they do start a new window I'm sort of hoping they keep M15 and up and do considerable changes to how they print the land cycles instead of invalidating a lot of peoples purchases. No one is going to complain if good mana fixing can be had at uncommon instead of rare at this point.
Why am I imagining the modern forums on MTGSalvation are going to be "colorful" when this happens. A lot of people over there are worried about Modern attendance dropping and that isn't going to help in the slightest, though I'm more on wizards side at this point with generating a new window.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I say let people play whatever games they want. Nobody owes it to you to play and support the format of your preference. Legacy has survived (despite slowed growth) because it has enough appeal to retain and attract players. Modern too will endure if and only if people in sufficient numbers still want to play it. End of story.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I hope realized how powerful cards like Grim Flayer are with Treasure Cruise. The format needs Crypt.
Frontier (or any new eternal window) is a good opportunity for Wizards to turn the game around and start changing how they print cards so as to favor the players rather than just simply themselves and exploiting the human condition. And no one would even mind if they were exploiting the human condition if what they were doing the last decade didn't impact the entirety of the secondary market. Thanks to how they did printings they basically destroyed the second hand market in terms of card availability and cost, which is part of the reason they even need a new eternal window like frontier to begin with.
Well, hopefully I didn't veer too off topic with that rant. It's just that getting older and seeing how the game shaped up thanks to a company headed by complete buffoonery and poor long term decisions is a bit much. Right now I feel almost 100% certain that Wizards thinks they can turn the game around by entering the digital age while sticking to a print standard that has proven to be fatal to the games health long term.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Frontier is an opportunity for Wizards to react to how they print their own cards??? HAHAHA! Frontier is an opportunity for VENDORS and INVESTORS to react to how Wizards prints cards now, which is to print more of everything. Print it into oblivion. Remind yourself that it's the players that should be coming up with new formats to fit their needs, not a damn store or investor trying to dump overprinted product in the guise of a new format.
Want a format that favors the players? I do! How about we get behind something that is from the players instead of this.
You prove my point in describing frontier as a reaction by vendors and investors to printing levels. Which is what I've been telling people as soon as this thread popped up. You made my desire in pointing out this painfully obvious fact much easier this time, thank you.
I'm sorry to point this out but every person backing this proposed abomination of a format has their vision of the requisites for a healthy format backwards. Healthy formats are visions of players. Not the people taking their money.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Modern is not cheap at all, but that's normal. Eternal formats tend to be so. Maybe the issue is the lack of variety in decks? Well, it also happens with eternal formats unless new cards create new combos or synergies. Making Frontier is just postponing the same that currently happens with Modern.
Maybe WotC could create a new slow-rotating format, like Extended was some time after its creation. Like from Innistrad until now, rotating a couple of blocks avery other year, or a block a year. This way we would still have a lot of cards to play with, but all the Zendikar and New Phyrexia "powerful" ones would be out.
Before the glory of Yawgmoth, yes, even this makes sense.
Right. That's what's being put forward by myself and a number of others in this thread.
Well, Modern has more problems than card availability. You know how in Dragonball Z the fighters power levels just kept going up each season until they were blowing up planets, and then Toriyama decided to try to do a power reset with Dragonball GT and that ended up with the fighters getting even more powerful by the end of it? Modern has that problem.
Also, people coming in here and saying that a format is broken because it is made by vendors are right. The problem is the players don't make new formats: we make variants of the vendor based format that fit whatever vision of the game we tend to have and frontier for a lot of people is that vision of a good format. I for one like it as a player because the sets include just enough hate to combat the strategies used in the format without it turning into rock paper scissors. The downside is that I really think Theros should be included. The reason they didn't include it was because it didn't have the new border with the hollow tag and unfortunately I got a feeling that WoTC is going to be starting their next window even further up with BFZ. As I stated in a couple of threads, my hypothesis on this entire format is that Hareyuya wanted to get more attendance due to standard not being as popular as they liked and jumped the gun early on a new eternal window before WoTC did it. WoTC is waiting for Magic Digital Next at the very least so they can release a paper version of the format that game supports.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I am confused. I always thought Legacy and EDH (wotc renamed it to commander) were from players. The other formats true they were mostly from wotc, but they are also mostly dead with the exception of vintage and standard and modern currently? unless you mean TO, but a TO will only do it if there is enough interest and still it is player driven (at least for Legacy and EDH)
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
My perspective on formats tends to be that ultimately we have WoTC printing cards and creating standard, which rotates. From that us players created eternal formats so we could keep legally playing our cards that rotated out. Then we birthed all the casual formats to try and fill in the gaps, such as an affordable entry eternal format in pauper and a casual format in the form of EDH. Now a vendor has created frontier based on the new card border and I'm envisioning us players probably morphing or creating a better version of it... which probably includes bringing Theros into the fold. I personally think that they jumped the gun on this because most likely this new card border and holo mark will fit into MTG Digital Next somehow, but we'll have to wait and see.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I know, power level and lack of viable deck options is a real problem in Modern. That's why I suggested maybe a slow-rotating format could fill the gap between the allegedly boring Standard and the overpowered Modern. Removing blocks with powerful cards like Innistrad, RTR or Scars of Mirrodin could refresh all these things.
Anyway, good to know others share my disappointment with Theros not being in Frontier
Before the glory of Yawgmoth, yes, even this makes sense.