goyf is restricted by color.
goyf is beaten by potentially any and all critter elimination.
goyf requires a deck to be built around him.
goyf requires certain cards in the graveyard, which can also be hosed.
goyf has no evasion.
goyf is 10 points of life late game vs. UB.
Is the card good? oh yeah. But broken still means a whole lot more.
Perhaps I was a bit too radical. I guess Wizards needs to think twice whenever they print cards like Tarmogoyf. I believe it was once a crappy card that Wizards decided to make more and more powerful until it was time for FS to be released. Guys like Clamp, Jitte, and Bridge have went through this process as well.
...Just like Extirpate. They think the card is broken and should be banned too. Haha.
??? I never said anything about banning Extirpate.
goyf is restricted by color.
Wrong! Because goyf costs 1G, it is way way way too easy to splash for. If goyf costed GG (which it should have been), then it'd be restricted by color.
goyf is beaten by potentially any and all critter elimination.
That sounds all good and well in theory, but in a real life game, you will be under the gun to find an answer to Tarmogoyf. If you can't find a way to deal with it, you'll lose. You will not always have creature kill in your hand all the time.
goyf requires a deck to be built around him.
Tarmogoyf doesn't need a deck to be built around it. Cards will naturally enter the grave, and they will be of all types, which will boost the guy to big levels. Let's not forget that Terramorphic Expanse and Tolaria West are played a lot, which make the guy even bigger.
goyf requires certain cards in the graveyard, which can also be hosed.
Are you talking about using Crypt? Because it will just slow down Tarmy only so much; it won't hose it all the way. See above note as well.
goyf has no evasion.
'Tog doesn't have evasion as well, and it's considered one of the most broken creatures ever.
goyf is 10 points of life late game vs. UB.
If a game has gone that long, then UB has pretty much got the game wrapped up.
There is a difference between a card defining the metagame and warping the metagame. To me when there are just two different types of decks that are king, that's not a healthy metagame.
I think they've no reason that it should, he is very good, but nothing warping the format, and most colors have at least one if not more ways to deal with him.
Perhaps I was a bit too radical. I guess Wizards needs to think twice whenever they print cards like Tarmogoyf. I believe it was once a crappy card that Wizards decided to make more and more powerful until it was time for FS to be released. Guys like Clamp, Jitte, and Bridge have went through this process as well.
Based on what, exactly? Also, Bridge is a crappy card to this day.
Wrong! Because goyf costs 1G, it is way way way too easy to splash for. If goyf costed GG (which it should have been), then it'd be restricted by color.
So freaking what? People splash for good cards all the time.
That sounds all good and well in theory, but in a real life game, you will be under the gun to find an answer to Tarmogoyf. If you can't find a way to deal with it, you'll lose. You will not always have creature kill in your hand all the time.
Oh no! Whatever will we do? Oh wait, I just remembered that there are like fifty or sixty answers to it.
There is a difference between a card defining the metagame and warping the metagame. To me when there are just two different types of decks that are king, that's not a healthy metagame.
Yep, it's not. Good thing TSP block isn't like that.
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you know why he should not be banned, because its like everyone says, HE CAN BE KILLED BY JUST ABOUT ANYTHING, like the black pact, it can even be splashed for in a block decks sideboard for him
You obviously did not take time to read my above post. Saying that a card can be dealt with another (or many others) is quite possibly some of the worst logic to think of. Magic doesn't revolve around theory like this. You will not always have removal all the time.
That's like saying guys like 'Tog, Mongrel, Piledriver, Warchief, Dark Confidant, Shade, and other good creatures are bad because they die to so much removal. Which is quite wrong considering all of those creatures have had significant impact during their time.
Here's a good quote from Lesurgo:
Quote from Lesurgo »
There are many ways to deal with Tarmogoyf, that is true. However, most creatures in Magic are this way. The inherent problem with answer cards (removal in this case) is that you have to have it when you need it and you also only have so much of it. If I have four Tarmogoyfs in my deck and you have four Terrors in your deck and I play a Tarmogoyf and you didn't find your Terror, my Tarmogoyf is going to be great. Every card in Magic has an answer, but when I'm the one presenting the threats, you better have your answer. I'd also like to note that absolute worst case, my Tarmogoyf is going to trade with one card and two mana, which is exactly what I spent for my Tarmogoyf. I'm not losing tempo or card advantage by casting it. If you are holding back your removal spells, I have other creatures that will be threatening you.
Based on what, exactly? Also, Bridge is a crappy card to this day.
So freaking what? People splash for good cards all the time.
Oh no! Whatever will we do? Oh wait, I just remembered that there are like fifty or sixty answers to it.
Yep, it's not. Good thing TSP block isn't like that.
Umm actully Bridge is a good card maybe not in block but in all other formats. Only ignorant people think its just junk. Anyway tarmogoyf =s good. Not broken. Jitte could be played in any deck. Goyf can't. yes hes splashable but still. Hes not broken.
Heh, when i first saw the card i thought there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth... and i got silence... and then i saw this thread and was vindicated!!
while it is a good card, its not broken. as has been stated many times it dies to practically everything and people seem to be using the "god hand" example which is a one in a million chance.
truthfully there are far too many options stopping goyf, or halting it temporarily until you draw/tutor an answer to it. you can easily kill it and then extirpate, which from memory, makes goyf decks cry just like hellbent demonfire makes control players cry.
also, many other people have pointed out that clamp and jitte where not banned at the time... goyf is somewhat harder to include in a deck as opposed to 1-2c colourless artifacts.
it should not be banned. and before anyone points out, yes i know that 1 in a million chances happen 9 times out of 10 (please tell me someone gets the reference ;))
You obviously did not take time to read my above post. Saying that a card can be dealt with another (or many others) is quite possibly some of the worst logic to think of. Magic doesn't revolve around theory like this. You will not always have removal all the time.
No, it's not some of the worst logic. It's actually quite accurate.
Most decks run more than 4 pieces of removal. Now, if you're the Bx player wasting your Pacts or Tendrils or Damnation on Saffi then shame on you. You're just a bad player. What you are failing to remember is that your 'Goyf playing opponent is much less likely to see a goyf than you are to not see removal. That alone is simple common sense.
>4 / 60 OR 4 / 60. Which one is most likely to see the cards that we are referencing? Again, if you're running more than 4 pieces of removal, you are much more likely to see removal than your opponent will see goyf.
That's like saying guys like 'Tog, Mongrel, Piledriver, Warchief, Dark Confidant, Shade, and other good creatures are bad because they die to so much removal. Which is quite wrong considering all of those creatures have had significant impact during their time.
I'll address these one by one
Tog - The guy pumps himself 1 1/2 times for every card in your hand. All he has to do is get through and you win. Goyf doesn't pump himself. He needs ALOT more support.
Mongrel - See Tog, except he only pumps himself once for every card in your hand. Let's not forget that he can randomly avoid color based targeting by changing colors... I'd say Goyf is better but I don't ever remember claims of saying Mongrel needed banning.
Piledriver - Another very, very good creature that requires a deck be built around him. I'd definitely say he's better than Goyf because given equal scenarios (decks being built to support the respective creatures) Piledriver becomes much larger much faster and has some evasion. I was absent from Magic during the release of this fella but I don't remember claims of having him banned either. IIRC, Lackey was always the issue.
Warchief - Again, specific deck, etc... He's good but why is he in this discussion
Shade - See Warchief, except he just has to be in mono - black or Urborg supported decks.
Confidant - Great creature, but again has to be in the right decks. Go ahead and splash him in your Dragonstorm deck and see what happens....
I hope you see the point here. All great creatures and all very powerful but have to be properly used. It isn't like cards that have been banned because they, by themselves, either win games or warp entire formats because of their power.
No, it's not some of the worst logic. It's actually quite accurate.
Most decks run more than 4 pieces of removal. Now, if you're the Bx player wasting your Pacts or Tendrils or Damnation on Saffi then shame on you. You're just a bad player. What you are failing to remember is that your 'Goyf playing opponent is much less likely to see a goyf than you are to not see removal. That alone is simple common sense.
But the person playing Tarmy isn't going to just be playing him. He's going to be backing it up with other threats that must be dealt with too. In magic, it is FAR better to be the proactive person rather than the reactive person.
Because of Tarmy's cost, he is way too easily splashed. He doesn't even need support or a deck to be built around; he'll naturally grow stronger as stuff is played from both sides.
When 'Tog won Worlds (back in '02 I believe), it was the sole deck. Nothing else could stop it. The metagame revolved around him as he turned T2 into a nightmare game of Draw-Go. Tog took over half of the T8, and it of course won Worlds. Wizards should have banned Tog then, because it was incredibly stupid having all your spells countered and then getting hammered by a 20/21 for 1UB game after game.
Mongrel was pretty much the engine behind UG madness, which didn't have the same tyranny as Tog, but it was close. Madness was played so much where I live, and it was no fun going through game after game of 3/3s for no mana, instant speed, 6/6s for 4, Counterspell for U, and 4/4 tramplers for 3, instant speed. With 8th though saw the unexpected rise of Wake, and it just strangled '03 Worlds.
Goblins took over the meta in T2 and block. In Onslaught block, there was just Slide and Goblins, and nothing else. Elves didn't stand a chance due to Goblin Sharpshooter. It had the pretty common god draws of Warchief, Piledriver x2 and win by turn 4. Wizards really wasn't thinking when they just nerfed the other tribes except Goblins and (to some extent) Elves.
But I agree; the real problem was Warchief; he makes Goblins way too fast and explosive. Either you kill him or you're toast.
Goblins still continued into Onslaught-Mirrodin T2 (before Clamp ban) as it made up part of the Unholy Trinity of RavAffinity, Elf & Nail, and itself. Banning the clamp did nothing more than create a RavAffinity metagame, with the person winning worlds used a G/W Slide deck designed to crush Affinity.
And of course Affinity ruled oppressively until Wizards FINALLY decided to ban their Frakenstein creation and think twice about printing broken cards.
I am also certain this was why Kamigawa block wasn't very eye opening in power; Wizards didn't want another disaster on their hands after Affinity ruined the game.
And I still think Jitte was incredibly close to being banned in T2, but Wizards decided to keep themselves in their shells and let it be.
I like it when a company admits mistakes, does something about it, and then moves on with life. Yes, I know Wizards doesn't like banning cards, but sometimes they don't think when they make stuff like Clamp, Affinity cards, Ravager, Cranial Plating, Jitte, Tarmy, and Bridge from Below.
ooooooooooooooooooooook then. i think someones been beaten by a goyf 10 2 many times cos hes a bad player (im looking at you surging chaos). tarmogoyf is a freakin awsome card. so is teferie (which is a heck of alot more powerfull) and dragonstorm and mystical teaching, specteral force and hell y not while we are banning all these good card y not ban damnation as well? we all know killing EVERY creature is broken so we better ban that to.
my point is they print good cards. tarmogoyf isnt broken. its just good. it doesnt create a degenerate combo like dragonstorm. in fact i think drangonstorm is far more broken than this card. i dont know about you but i dont like dieing on turn 1.
i have a goyf' deck and i se kavu pretator in it. this can give me a 9/9 trampler on turn 3. should that be banned?
i think there are some decent arguements that say goyf should be banned but those same aurguement apply to alot more cards than tarmogloyf (tefirie/mystical teachings anyone?)
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playing:
block: G//predator U/shifter R//slivers
tribal: Wsoldier
vintage: (well it kinda isnt legal in any format lol) B reanimator
No, I'm not a bad player. I have lost to Tarmogoyf, but who hasn't? If you can't draw removal or find a way to answer it, that's just the luck of the draw. It doesn't mean you're a bad player.
When the entire metagame is forced to have an answer for Tarmogoyf, you have a problem on your hands.
It also can come out turn 2, which means it slips through most of the countermagic and is an immediate threat to the game. Teferi, Mystical Teachings, and damnation come much later in the game and are much more mana intensive. I would have had no problem at all with Tarmy if it costed 2G (to slow it down and cause more of a tempo investment) or GG (to make it impossible to splash). But a cost of 1G is really, REALLY pushing the limit. Keep in mind there is no Spell Snare to stop this guy in block.
It can come out of nowhere and randomly win games you shouldn't. Magic should not be played that way. I agree there should be luck involved in the game, but not in a retarded manner.
The reason I compared Tarmogoyf to other creatures like 'Tog, Warchief, Mongrel, and Piledriver was because those guys are creatures too. They can be killed by so much removal, yet they completely take over the game if you don't have an answer to them.
Being the proactive player (the one making threats) is far better than being the reactive player (with all the answers). You can win a game with all offense and no defense, but it is MUCH harder to win with all defense and no offense.
On a side note, I own 2 Tarmogoyfs and they are going for 20+ dollars. Our region is entirely sold out of them and are incredibly hard to buy.
There are going to be people who will pay $30-$40 for Tarmys, even if that's not their real value. Due to supply and demand, this will jack up the value of Tarmy even higher, ad nauseam.
i realy think u guys are over reacting to the power of the goyf'. there are plenty of card that are going to beat u unless u answer them. deal with it and move on. u obv play control and i cant tell u im not a big fan of control (to many draws) and some of the cards in but i dont complain. serious i consider tefirie far nor powerful and broken. it seems whenever aggro gets an awsome beatstick some control players tell us its to good. im sick of it
Please make an effort to use something resembling proper spelling and grammar; at the very least, type the two extra keystrokes required for "you" instead of "u."--Binary
When the entire metagame is forced to have an answer for Tarmogoyf, you have a problem on your hands.
No you don't. Tarmogoyf is just a critter for Pete's sake! He doesn't draw cards brokenly, he doesn't kill your opponentin one turn, he's not impossible to remove, he's not broken. He's obviously undercosted; maybe 2G or GG would have been right. But broken? Far from it. All this thing does is attack and block -- he doesn't even have any abilities!
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Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
If Tarmo was untargetable then yah its over powered.
But its weak to any removal.
It doesnt enter play on turn 2 instantly 4/5 or 5/6.
Thats later in the game unless you get a really nice draw..which again isnt common. If they ban a card cause it can be a 4/5 on turn 3 cause of a god draw then they would have to ban dragonstorm cause it can kill on turn 1 with a god draw.
Tarmo wont be banned cause he can be answered and he doesnt get strong without help.
People who want him banned are people who:
A. have lost to him numerous times and are whining like little girls
B. Can't afford to have tarmo's of their own cause they are paupers so they want him condemnd
C. Are easily manipulated sheep who cry wolf when some other whiner does
D. are ignorant to the extreme
E. Have a highly intensified sense of nothing.
That is all. G'day
Throwing such insults at people who don't agree with you is pretty much the definition of flaming. Please don't do that here.--Binary
Yeah, definitely take a chill pill there bud, no need to insult. Although, you do bring up yet another response to Tarmogoyf (albeit, in Standard, not Block, but still):
Haha, yes, I think Enforcer is actually harder given that it's always pro: black. Really the only thing you can do is block and kill it (which is most of the time easier than with 'Goyf except when all your critters are black) or Damnation it.
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In an effort not to repeat what has already been said (several times, in most cases), yes, Tarmogoyf is a solid creature. Solid. Not broken.
There need to be good cards to play in every set/block/format. People get excited to play good cards, whether they are answers, threats, or ways to find answers/threats. That's how the game works. There are cards that are good on their own, and cards that need support from other cards. ('goyf, btw, is a card that needs support. It's an 0/1 on its own, if you haven't noticed).
Compare MTG to other games. Monopoly, for example. No one (hopefully) is writing to Parker Bros. asking them to remove Boardwalk and Park Place from the board.
Games need Rock, Paper, and Scissors to survive. I think what some people are saying is that 'Goyf beats everything, but that's not true. There are plenty of ways to deal with 'goyf (as has been stated). Just because a card seems ubiquitous doesn't mean it should be banned. It's a good card, but there are good answers to it, too. A simple Wall of Roots can deal with it in the early game, which gives you plenty of time to find your other answers, or to get a better threat into play.
Magic is a game of parity. You play your threats, I play mine, you answer my threats, I answer yours. It's when parity is broken that the eventual winner emerges. Tarmogoyf is a good way to break parity, but so is Ancestral Vision (card advantage), Damnation (card advantage again).
The real offender in this format is Shapeshifter, not Tarmogoyf. For 5 mana you get either an Ancestral every turn, a 1-sided Stasis, recurring Misdirection, or at worst a copy of your opponent's largest beatstick. This single card is the reason that I refuse to play this format any longer. There is simply no answer for this card.
Tarmogoyf on the other hand is only defeated by approximately 800 removal spells, which includes cards that span every color and are currently utilized in every top tier deck. Also, it's hardly even a threat when it arrives on turn 2.
I play U/B Control. I love seeing Tarmgoyfs. I'm more afraid of Mystic Enforcer and maybe even Kavu Predator.
I did play G/W for awhile there... When we were trying to break the format. (Basically the idea was "Wall or Roots is good against White Weenie and Red" and "Calciderm beats Control")
ANYways, Tarmgoyf was nice and could beat heavy, but for me he wasn't any different than any other threat. Tarm and Serra Avenger are about the same, in my experience... Just one get's played more because it cost's 1G instead of WW. In a format full of Tier 2 Cards, you need any power you can get I suppose.
goyf is restricted by color.
goyf is beaten by potentially any and all critter elimination.
goyf requires a deck to be built around him.
goyf requires certain cards in the graveyard, which can also be hosed.
goyf has no evasion.
goyf is 10 points of life late game vs. UB.
Is the card good? oh yeah. But broken still means a whole lot more.
Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero was banned in block. I am not saying Goyf should be banned, I am just saying just because something is a creature/it requires a deck to be built around it =/= too good.
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goyf is beaten by potentially any and all critter elimination.
goyf requires a deck to be built around him.
goyf requires certain cards in the graveyard, which can also be hosed.
goyf has no evasion.
goyf is 10 points of life late game vs. UB.
Is the card good? oh yeah. But broken still means a whole lot more.
??? I never said anything about banning Extirpate.
Wrong! Because goyf costs 1G, it is way way way too easy to splash for. If goyf costed GG (which it should have been), then it'd be restricted by color.
That sounds all good and well in theory, but in a real life game, you will be under the gun to find an answer to Tarmogoyf. If you can't find a way to deal with it, you'll lose. You will not always have creature kill in your hand all the time.
Tarmogoyf doesn't need a deck to be built around it. Cards will naturally enter the grave, and they will be of all types, which will boost the guy to big levels. Let's not forget that Terramorphic Expanse and Tolaria West are played a lot, which make the guy even bigger.
Are you talking about using Crypt? Because it will just slow down Tarmy only so much; it won't hose it all the way. See above note as well.
'Tog doesn't have evasion as well, and it's considered one of the most broken creatures ever.
If a game has gone that long, then UB has pretty much got the game wrapped up.
There is a difference between a card defining the metagame and warping the metagame. To me when there are just two different types of decks that are king, that's not a healthy metagame.
Also, I <3 Feuerdrache's sig.
Based on what, exactly? Also, Bridge is a crappy card to this day.
So freaking what? People splash for good cards all the time.
Oh no! Whatever will we do? Oh wait, I just remembered that there are like fifty or sixty answers to it.
Yep, it's not. Good thing TSP block isn't like that.
You obviously did not take time to read my above post. Saying that a card can be dealt with another (or many others) is quite possibly some of the worst logic to think of. Magic doesn't revolve around theory like this. You will not always have removal all the time.
That's like saying guys like 'Tog, Mongrel, Piledriver, Warchief, Dark Confidant, Shade, and other good creatures are bad because they die to so much removal. Which is quite wrong considering all of those creatures have had significant impact during their time.
Here's a good quote from Lesurgo:
Umm actully Bridge is a good card maybe not in block but in all other formats. Only ignorant people think its just junk. Anyway tarmogoyf =s good. Not broken. Jitte could be played in any deck. Goyf can't. yes hes splashable but still. Hes not broken.
while it is a good card, its not broken. as has been stated many times it dies to practically everything and people seem to be using the "god hand" example which is a one in a million chance.
truthfully there are far too many options stopping goyf, or halting it temporarily until you draw/tutor an answer to it. you can easily kill it and then extirpate, which from memory, makes goyf decks cry just like hellbent demonfire makes control players cry.
also, many other people have pointed out that clamp and jitte where not banned at the time... goyf is somewhat harder to include in a deck as opposed to 1-2c colourless artifacts.
it should not be banned. and before anyone points out, yes i know that 1 in a million chances happen 9 times out of 10 (please tell me someone gets the reference ;))
hope this makes sense but its late and im tired.
No, it's not some of the worst logic. It's actually quite accurate.
Most decks run more than 4 pieces of removal. Now, if you're the Bx player wasting your Pacts or Tendrils or Damnation on Saffi then shame on you. You're just a bad player. What you are failing to remember is that your 'Goyf playing opponent is much less likely to see a goyf than you are to not see removal. That alone is simple common sense.
>4 / 60 OR 4 / 60. Which one is most likely to see the cards that we are referencing? Again, if you're running more than 4 pieces of removal, you are much more likely to see removal than your opponent will see goyf.
I'll address these one by one
Tog - The guy pumps himself 1 1/2 times for every card in your hand. All he has to do is get through and you win. Goyf doesn't pump himself. He needs ALOT more support.
Mongrel - See Tog, except he only pumps himself once for every card in your hand. Let's not forget that he can randomly avoid color based targeting by changing colors... I'd say Goyf is better but I don't ever remember claims of saying Mongrel needed banning.
Piledriver - Another very, very good creature that requires a deck be built around him. I'd definitely say he's better than Goyf because given equal scenarios (decks being built to support the respective creatures) Piledriver becomes much larger much faster and has some evasion. I was absent from Magic during the release of this fella but I don't remember claims of having him banned either. IIRC, Lackey was always the issue.
Warchief - Again, specific deck, etc... He's good but why is he in this discussion
Shade - See Warchief, except he just has to be in mono - black or Urborg supported decks.
Confidant - Great creature, but again has to be in the right decks. Go ahead and splash him in your Dragonstorm deck and see what happens....
I hope you see the point here. All great creatures and all very powerful but have to be properly used. It isn't like cards that have been banned because they, by themselves, either win games or warp entire formats because of their power.
Why so? Tarmy is the next potentially broken creature out there to warp the metagame.
But the person playing Tarmy isn't going to just be playing him. He's going to be backing it up with other threats that must be dealt with too. In magic, it is FAR better to be the proactive person rather than the reactive person.
Because of Tarmy's cost, he is way too easily splashed. He doesn't even need support or a deck to be built around; he'll naturally grow stronger as stuff is played from both sides.
When 'Tog won Worlds (back in '02 I believe), it was the sole deck. Nothing else could stop it. The metagame revolved around him as he turned T2 into a nightmare game of Draw-Go. Tog took over half of the T8, and it of course won Worlds. Wizards should have banned Tog then, because it was incredibly stupid having all your spells countered and then getting hammered by a 20/21 for 1UB game after game.
Mongrel was pretty much the engine behind UG madness, which didn't have the same tyranny as Tog, but it was close. Madness was played so much where I live, and it was no fun going through game after game of 3/3s for no mana, instant speed, 6/6s for 4, Counterspell for U, and 4/4 tramplers for 3, instant speed. With 8th though saw the unexpected rise of Wake, and it just strangled '03 Worlds.
Goblins took over the meta in T2 and block. In Onslaught block, there was just Slide and Goblins, and nothing else. Elves didn't stand a chance due to Goblin Sharpshooter. It had the pretty common god draws of Warchief, Piledriver x2 and win by turn 4. Wizards really wasn't thinking when they just nerfed the other tribes except Goblins and (to some extent) Elves.
But I agree; the real problem was Warchief; he makes Goblins way too fast and explosive. Either you kill him or you're toast.
Goblins still continued into Onslaught-Mirrodin T2 (before Clamp ban) as it made up part of the Unholy Trinity of RavAffinity, Elf & Nail, and itself. Banning the clamp did nothing more than create a RavAffinity metagame, with the person winning worlds used a G/W Slide deck designed to crush Affinity.
And of course Affinity ruled oppressively until Wizards FINALLY decided to ban their Frakenstein creation and think twice about printing broken cards.
I am also certain this was why Kamigawa block wasn't very eye opening in power; Wizards didn't want another disaster on their hands after Affinity ruined the game.
And I still think Jitte was incredibly close to being banned in T2, but Wizards decided to keep themselves in their shells and let it be.
I like it when a company admits mistakes, does something about it, and then moves on with life. Yes, I know Wizards doesn't like banning cards, but sometimes they don't think when they make stuff like Clamp, Affinity cards, Ravager, Cranial Plating, Jitte, Tarmy, and Bridge from Below.
k, I'm going to bed.
my point is they print good cards. tarmogoyf isnt broken. its just good. it doesnt create a degenerate combo like dragonstorm. in fact i think drangonstorm is far more broken than this card. i dont know about you but i dont like dieing on turn 1.
i have a goyf' deck and i se kavu pretator in it. this can give me a 9/9 trampler on turn 3. should that be banned?
i think there are some decent arguements that say goyf should be banned but those same aurguement apply to alot more cards than tarmogloyf (tefirie/mystical teachings anyone?)
"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months." Oscar Wilde
playing:
block:
G//predator
U/shifter
R//slivers
tribal:
Wsoldier
vintage: (well it kinda isnt legal in any format lol)
B reanimator
lol. u get what im saying though?
"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months." Oscar Wilde
playing:
block:
G//predator
U/shifter
R//slivers
tribal:
Wsoldier
vintage: (well it kinda isnt legal in any format lol)
B reanimator
When the entire metagame is forced to have an answer for Tarmogoyf, you have a problem on your hands.
It also can come out turn 2, which means it slips through most of the countermagic and is an immediate threat to the game. Teferi, Mystical Teachings, and damnation come much later in the game and are much more mana intensive. I would have had no problem at all with Tarmy if it costed 2G (to slow it down and cause more of a tempo investment) or GG (to make it impossible to splash). But a cost of 1G is really, REALLY pushing the limit. Keep in mind there is no Spell Snare to stop this guy in block.
It can come out of nowhere and randomly win games you shouldn't. Magic should not be played that way. I agree there should be luck involved in the game, but not in a retarded manner.
The reason I compared Tarmogoyf to other creatures like 'Tog, Warchief, Mongrel, and Piledriver was because those guys are creatures too. They can be killed by so much removal, yet they completely take over the game if you don't have an answer to them.
Being the proactive player (the one making threats) is far better than being the reactive player (with all the answers). You can win a game with all offense and no defense, but it is MUCH harder to win with all defense and no offense.
On a side note, I own 2 Tarmogoyfs and they are going for 20+ dollars. Our region is entirely sold out of them and are incredibly hard to buy.
There are going to be people who will pay $30-$40 for Tarmys, even if that's not their real value. Due to supply and demand, this will jack up the value of Tarmy even higher, ad nauseam.
Sudden death
Slaughter pact
tendrils
Temporal isolation
Bound in silence
Im glad i got 2 playsets by ripping off some kids at the prerelease
Please make an effort to use something resembling proper spelling and grammar; at the very least, type the two extra keystrokes required for "you" instead of "u."--Binary
"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months." Oscar Wilde
playing:
block:
G//predator
U/shifter
R//slivers
tribal:
Wsoldier
vintage: (well it kinda isnt legal in any format lol)
B reanimator
No you don't. Tarmogoyf is just a critter for Pete's sake! He doesn't draw cards brokenly, he doesn't kill your opponent in one turn, he's not impossible to remove, he's not broken. He's obviously undercosted; maybe 2G or GG would have been right. But broken? Far from it. All this thing does is attack and block -- he doesn't even have any abilities!
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
But its weak to any removal.
It doesnt enter play on turn 2 instantly 4/5 or 5/6.
Thats later in the game unless you get a really nice draw..which again isnt common. If they ban a card cause it can be a 4/5 on turn 3 cause of a god draw then they would have to ban dragonstorm cause it can kill on turn 1 with a god draw.
Tarmo wont be banned cause he can be answered and he doesnt get strong without help.
People who want him banned are people who:
A. have lost to him numerous times and are whining like little girls
B. Can't afford to have tarmo's of their own cause they are paupers so they want him condemnd
C. Are easily manipulated sheep who cry wolf when some other whiner does
D. are ignorant to the extreme
E. Have a highly intensified sense of nothing.
That is all. G'day
Throwing such insults at people who don't agree with you is pretty much the definition of flaming. Please don't do that here.--Binary
(quote-hacked for effect :-P)
Check the quote-hack above.
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Grow-A-TogKeeperRemember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
its extremely powerful but no should not be axed
There need to be good cards to play in every set/block/format. People get excited to play good cards, whether they are answers, threats, or ways to find answers/threats. That's how the game works. There are cards that are good on their own, and cards that need support from other cards. ('goyf, btw, is a card that needs support. It's an 0/1 on its own, if you haven't noticed).
Compare MTG to other games. Monopoly, for example. No one (hopefully) is writing to Parker Bros. asking them to remove Boardwalk and Park Place from the board.
Games need Rock, Paper, and Scissors to survive. I think what some people are saying is that 'Goyf beats everything, but that's not true. There are plenty of ways to deal with 'goyf (as has been stated). Just because a card seems ubiquitous doesn't mean it should be banned. It's a good card, but there are good answers to it, too. A simple Wall of Roots can deal with it in the early game, which gives you plenty of time to find your other answers, or to get a better threat into play.
Magic is a game of parity. You play your threats, I play mine, you answer my threats, I answer yours. It's when parity is broken that the eventual winner emerges. Tarmogoyf is a good way to break parity, but so is Ancestral Vision (card advantage), Damnation (card advantage again).
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Tarmogoyf on the other hand is only defeated by approximately 800 removal spells, which includes cards that span every color and are currently utilized in every top tier deck. Also, it's hardly even a threat when it arrives on turn 2.
I play U/B Control. I love seeing Tarmgoyfs. I'm more afraid of Mystic Enforcer and maybe even Kavu Predator.
I did play G/W for awhile there... When we were trying to break the format. (Basically the idea was "Wall or Roots is good against White Weenie and Red" and "Calciderm beats Control")
ANYways, Tarmgoyf was nice and could beat heavy, but for me he wasn't any different than any other threat. Tarm and Serra Avenger are about the same, in my experience... Just one get's played more because it cost's 1G instead of WW. In a format full of Tier 2 Cards, you need any power you can get I suppose.
Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero is beaten by any and all critter elimination
Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero requires a deck to be built around her.
Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero requires certian cards in the deck/graveyard which can be hosed.
Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero has no evasion.
Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero was banned in block. I am not saying Goyf should be banned, I am just saying just because something is a creature/it requires a deck to be built around it =/= too good.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor