lin sivvi defreakenserved to be banned during invasion block, she was just to broken, but also, pickles handles goyf because, ha ha, i copy your goyf
I wasn't commenting on that, I am just saying that because a card has to have a deck built around it, B) the card can be destroyed, a card isn't colorless (I mean wtf on that one, only artifacts can be broken?), and the effect can be hosed, hell iirc there was a card that totaly shut down all rebel abilities does not mean that a card isn't broken. , looking around I found the card, not quite what i remembered off the top of my head Brutal Suppression
To go in each point specificaly.
goyf is restricted by color.
There are plenty of cards that are "restricted by color" and still banned, Lin Sivvy had a hard to cast cost at 1CC and was banned in block. Goyf is only costed 1C, it is about as easy as possible to splash this card, so this reason in null.
goyf is beaten by potentially any and all critter elimination.
Hermit druid, lin sivy, and every creature ever also gets to say this. Just because something can be countered/destroyed does not mean its not good. Null point.
goyf requires a deck to be built around him.
Deciple of the vault required a deck to be built around it and was still busted, Hell almost every card on the b/r list is either something undercosted (like goyf), or has an increadilby good deck built around it (Like flash) so null point
goyf requires certain cards in the graveyard, which can also be hosed.
Two Words, Yawgamoth's Will.
goyf has no evasion.
Neither did Lin-Sivvy
goyf is 10 points of life late game vs. UB.
This is the hardest to counter point, because I am not acctulay sure what it means. Is it bad that goyf is big and bashes late game?
I am not saying that goyf should be banned, I fully disagree with that statement, I am just trying to say his points weren't good reasons for the card not to be banned. The real reason goyf shouldn't be banned is because it is a card that keeps agro good against control, but not so good that it just smashes in the combo of pickles, forming that nice Rock paper scissors formula that magic should follow.
I'm not sure why people continue to compare 'goyf to cards like Lin Sivvy, Arcbound Ravager, and Disciple of the Vault.
Goyf's ability is nothing like any of these. He's like a Ravager with a salary cap. He doesn't damage you every time something hits the graveyard (nor give you a way to get things into the GY), and he doesn't fetch his fellows to come and gang up on you.
You cannot compare him to these creatures. ALL of them did what they were banned for doing without needing to attack. The Goyf is useless if it can't attack or block.
Disciple could kill you as soon as he resolved. If you didn't have removal for him immediately (and oftentimes, even if you did), you'd lose the game. Goyf can't do anything like that. He must be able to attack or block to be useful. No comparison.
Ravager was essentially an enabler for the Disciple; attacking wasn't necessary. And if you got rid of him, he could leave all his P/T on the board. Goyf can't do anything like that. He's a single threat that can be destroyed without leaving a trace of himself on the board. No comparison.
Lin Sivvi, if not removed immediately, could bring out a separate threat every turn, requiring even more removal. You could Terror her, but that would still leave all the rebels that she'd brought into play. Again, Goyf can't do anything like that. He's a single threat that can be destroyed without leaving a trace of himself on the board. No comparison.
I'm not sure what the problem is. At best (and this includes planeswalkers), he's an 8/9 for 1G. Sure, that's a kickass creature. But either it's late enough in the game to have all those card types in the GY (at which point you should have access to some way of dealing with it), or it's early, and the 'goyf player had to do something fairly risky and/or ridiculous to get all those card types into the yard—something that can be entirely negated if you've got some way of dealing with the 'goyf.
That's a stretch, I mean, Goyf is one of the best 2-drops ever, along with Dark Confidant. No wonder they printed spell snare, the best 2-drops seem to have all come out in the last 3 years (Goyf/Bob)
He is a great card, more efficient than many other creatures. Goyf does win games, even without attacking, because you know you die if you don't deal with him, flat-out.
But he should not be banned, he is not that type. He's just damn good.
He is a great card but not broken enoght to get band. I agree that even not likeing green a lot is worth haveing in the deck even if you spash just for him...
ok all of you people who are banning it based on its price alone, please leave the financial aspect out of this....it was you rlack of foresight to buy them at >5.00 dollars for about 1 and a 1/2 months
the card wont be banned because it gets killled by everything
If you read what I said you would see that in this much weaker meta(after ravnica) the power level of cards drop.To get banned the goyf doesnt have to be something like ravager it just has to have a major influence on standart and maby extendet and it DOES in both.Corect me if im wrong but pls tell me 1 deck in standart that pple wouldnt put something to make G mana and run goyfs in!
teachings
URW blink
UR storm
their are numerous decks that people dont run green in just for goyf
YES THEY DO!
For blink and the storm ill agree but thats still a tiny percent of the decks.And since thats a aggro heavy meta guess who u can expect in every deck out of 2(the other dude probly doesnt have 160$ for the goyfs:D)
No. In a pre-lorwyn blink heavy meta, pat chapin used goyf as his kill condition because unlike hellkite and skeletal vampire he could cast it mutliple times in a turn. No one runs it in any post-lorwyn lists.
ok all of you people who are banning it based on its price alone, please leave the financial aspect out of this....it was you rlack of foresight to buy them at >5.00 dollars for about 1 and a 1/2 months
the card wont be banned because it gets killled by everything
extremyl strong card, but no even close to broken
It has nothing to do how it stifles creativitiy in the format based on the fact that decks are splashing green to play this guy, and every deck needs to have answers to this as part of there deck construction. But I'm sure its just because of its price.:rolleyes:
Personally I don't think the card should be banned, I don't think the card should have ever been created. If the stupid thing cost GG to cast I woiuld be perfectly fine with Tarmogoyf. Only green decks or decks with a green commitment would be playing it. BUt as is its not the kind of card that deserves a ban.
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I've seen a lot of Goyf in Legacy he's good, but not broken at all. My Spectral Lynx just sits there and laughs at him. He's just a big fatty, personally Goblin Lacky gives me a lot more chills down my spine then Goyfy.
It should be banned for the same reason skullclamp was. It's just that it's in almost every single competitive deck, and that is unfun.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
Skullclamp is totally different then a big creature. Skullclamp is insane card advantage. Goyf can be killed by alot of spells. Hes good but also dies alot.
i personaly dont play block, but i could see how it would hurt the format. It should probably be banned in the TS block. However its fine for all the other formats and warrents no ban in those formats.
Skullclamp is totally different then a big creature. Skullclamp is insane card advantage. Goyf can be killed by alot of spells. Hes good but also dies alot.
Back in the clamp's banning days, artifact removal was rampant, and it was not that hard to get rid of.
The point is not how good it is, nor what it does. The point is how overwhelmingly present it is in the format.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
I never have and never will understand what the big deal about Goyf is. It dies to everything, it doesn't really get anywhere near as big as fast as people claim, it doesn't have any crazy evasion or anything. It's just a "pretty cool creature". I know I'm the only one, but I don't think it's any more a threat than Watchwolf. It's just popular.
Skullclamp could be put into even more decks than Goyf, and it did actually create pretty broken environments and what not. All goyf does is get big, sometimes.
No way should he be. there's a bagillion answers in block, and move into standard, there's a bagillion more. in block you have slaughter pact etc, standard there's terror, terror on a stick shreikmaw.
sorry about not autocarding, this is probably my first post here, so i'm not sure how to do them. if i find out, i'll come back and edit this perhaps.
The point is not how good it is, nor what it does. The point is how overwhelmingly present it is in the format.
No, actually that's blatantly wrong.
Cards are removed from tournament play because they break some type of fundamental rule about the game which creates degenerate game states and often removes interactivity from the other player.
For example, cards like AEther Vial and Tolarian Academy broke down the game's mana system that exists to moderate resource development over the course of the game. As a result, both are degenerate: Academy allows for a very viable turn 1 win, and Vial produces a barrage of free, uncounterable, instant-speed creatures.
The point is that these cards greatly reduce the amount of interaction between players. "Do you have Academy? OK I lose." "Do you have Vial? OK, I guess all my counters and sorcery-speed removal are worthless." "Do you have Skullclamp? OK, looks like I can never get ahead of you in card advantage."
Tarmogoyf is one creature, and doesn't even provide a tempo advantage for its caster unless you can untap with it (like any other creature). We can Smother it. We can double block it. We can chump block it. We can ignore it and damage race. Most of these will be disadvantageous, but that's not the point. The point is you haven't lost the game immediately when it hits the table.
Was it a mistake to print Tarmogoyf at this cost? Yes, absolutely. Does that alone mean it needs to be banned and is currently ruining the game. No.
This card will not be banned and there is no reason for it to be.
If Jitte survived the ban, I see no reason for Tarmogoyf to catch a ban axe. It is a very powerful card, but at the same time, he's not an auto win or a must have.
Are you serious? People still talk about this? Necro ftw.
Anyway, Goyf wasn't even as efficient in this format as it is in Extended, where it's a guaranteed 4/5 for 2. And that's within the extended power curve, because Doran matches it, oftentimes on turn 2.
In this format, you often had to wait to play your Goyf for it to be big...def doesn't seem bannable.
dude tarmogofy can die to shriekmaw, terror, smother, ext. easy to be stopped, well for my black creature kill it is. im trying to say its not like a god.
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Tarmogoyf has put a major stranglehold on the environment on Block. Because it is splashable and it becomes big really fast, it has put a "black-hole" like effect on the metagame.
I wasn't commenting on that, I am just saying that because a card has to have a deck built around it, B) the card can be destroyed, a card isn't colorless (I mean wtf on that one, only artifacts can be broken?), and the effect can be hosed, hell iirc there was a card that totaly shut down all rebel abilities does not mean that a card isn't broken. , looking around I found the card, not quite what i remembered off the top of my head Brutal Suppression
To go in each point specificaly.
goyf is restricted by color.
There are plenty of cards that are "restricted by color" and still banned, Lin Sivvy had a hard to cast cost at 1CC and was banned in block. Goyf is only costed 1C, it is about as easy as possible to splash this card, so this reason in null.
goyf is beaten by potentially any and all critter elimination.
Hermit druid, lin sivy, and every creature ever also gets to say this. Just because something can be countered/destroyed does not mean its not good. Null point.
goyf requires a deck to be built around him.
Deciple of the vault required a deck to be built around it and was still busted, Hell almost every card on the b/r list is either something undercosted (like goyf), or has an increadilby good deck built around it (Like flash) so null point
goyf requires certain cards in the graveyard, which can also be hosed.
Two Words, Yawgamoth's Will.
goyf has no evasion.
Neither did Lin-Sivvy
goyf is 10 points of life late game vs. UB.
This is the hardest to counter point, because I am not acctulay sure what it means. Is it bad that goyf is big and bashes late game?
I am not saying that goyf should be banned, I fully disagree with that statement, I am just trying to say his points weren't good reasons for the card not to be banned. The real reason goyf shouldn't be banned is because it is a card that keeps agro good against control, but not so good that it just smashes in the combo of pickles, forming that nice Rock paper scissors formula that magic should follow.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
Goyf's ability is nothing like any of these. He's like a Ravager with a salary cap. He doesn't damage you every time something hits the graveyard (nor give you a way to get things into the GY), and he doesn't fetch his fellows to come and gang up on you.
You cannot compare him to these creatures. ALL of them did what they were banned for doing without needing to attack. The Goyf is useless if it can't attack or block.
Disciple could kill you as soon as he resolved. If you didn't have removal for him immediately (and oftentimes, even if you did), you'd lose the game. Goyf can't do anything like that. He must be able to attack or block to be useful. No comparison.
Ravager was essentially an enabler for the Disciple; attacking wasn't necessary. And if you got rid of him, he could leave all his P/T on the board. Goyf can't do anything like that. He's a single threat that can be destroyed without leaving a trace of himself on the board. No comparison.
Lin Sivvi, if not removed immediately, could bring out a separate threat every turn, requiring even more removal. You could Terror her, but that would still leave all the rebels that she'd brought into play. Again, Goyf can't do anything like that. He's a single threat that can be destroyed without leaving a trace of himself on the board. No comparison.
I'm not sure what the problem is. At best (and this includes planeswalkers), he's an 8/9 for 1G. Sure, that's a kickass creature. But either it's late enough in the game to have all those card types in the GY (at which point you should have access to some way of dealing with it), or it's early, and the 'goyf player had to do something fairly risky and/or ridiculous to get all those card types into the yard—something that can be entirely negated if you've got some way of dealing with the 'goyf.
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He is a great card, more efficient than many other creatures. Goyf does win games, even without attacking, because you know you die if you don't deal with him, flat-out.
But he should not be banned, he is not that type. He's just damn good.
the card wont be banned because it gets killled by everything
extremyl strong card, but no even close to broken
teachings
URW blink
UR storm
their are numerous decks that people dont run green in just for goyf
No. In a pre-lorwyn blink heavy meta, pat chapin used goyf as his kill condition because unlike hellkite and skeletal vampire he could cast it mutliple times in a turn. No one runs it in any post-lorwyn lists.
Right Here, and here, and here.
And personally, if Tarmogoyf even needs to get slapped with something, it's a cheaper price.
It's stupidly overrated. And stupidly overpriced.
Retired Player
It has nothing to do how it stifles creativitiy in the format based on the fact that decks are splashing green to play this guy, and every deck needs to have answers to this as part of there deck construction. But I'm sure its just because of its price.:rolleyes:
Personally I don't think the card should be banned, I don't think the card should have ever been created. If the stupid thing cost GG to cast I woiuld be perfectly fine with Tarmogoyf. Only green decks or decks with a green commitment would be playing it. BUt as is its not the kind of card that deserves a ban.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
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Legacy:
U Solidarity
RW Burn Mk.3
W Mono White Life
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
Back in the clamp's banning days, artifact removal was rampant, and it was not that hard to get rid of.
The point is not how good it is, nor what it does. The point is how overwhelmingly present it is in the format.
Skullclamp could be put into even more decks than Goyf, and it did actually create pretty broken environments and what not. All goyf does is get big, sometimes.
sorry about not autocarding, this is probably my first post here, so i'm not sure how to do them. if i find out, i'll come back and edit this perhaps.
-J
No, actually that's blatantly wrong.
Cards are removed from tournament play because they break some type of fundamental rule about the game which creates degenerate game states and often removes interactivity from the other player.
For example, cards like AEther Vial and Tolarian Academy broke down the game's mana system that exists to moderate resource development over the course of the game. As a result, both are degenerate: Academy allows for a very viable turn 1 win, and Vial produces a barrage of free, uncounterable, instant-speed creatures.
The point is that these cards greatly reduce the amount of interaction between players. "Do you have Academy? OK I lose." "Do you have Vial? OK, I guess all my counters and sorcery-speed removal are worthless." "Do you have Skullclamp? OK, looks like I can never get ahead of you in card advantage."
Tarmogoyf is one creature, and doesn't even provide a tempo advantage for its caster unless you can untap with it (like any other creature). We can Smother it. We can double block it. We can chump block it. We can ignore it and damage race. Most of these will be disadvantageous, but that's not the point. The point is you haven't lost the game immediately when it hits the table.
Was it a mistake to print Tarmogoyf at this cost? Yes, absolutely. Does that alone mean it needs to be banned and is currently ruining the game. No.
This card will not be banned and there is no reason for it to be.
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Anyway, Goyf wasn't even as efficient in this format as it is in Extended, where it's a guaranteed 4/5 for 2. And that's within the extended power curve, because Doran matches it, oftentimes on turn 2.
In this format, you often had to wait to play your Goyf for it to be big...def doesn't seem bannable.
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What? Tarmogoyf isn't even block legal...