Browbeat has proven it's worth, which is something I never thought it would do. It doesn't mean I'll trade for 4 Browbeats now, but that's mostly because I'm not a control player.
Let me ask in a different way. How has it proven its worth, when it didn't (for you) before? What made you change your mind?
This is the important part of discussions. The why.
As for playing 20-22 lands. You'll mulligan often, and you'll stop at 2-3 lands quite often. This will keep you from utilizing disintegrate to it's fullest.
I would have to say that, while true I do mull a fair bit, I also imagine I would do the same at 24 just for the opposite reason (a hand with four or five lands it often a mull for a fast deck like this too). While I might be inclined to up my land count 1-2, going to 24 seems a bit extreem. Stopping at 2-3 lands is actually okay (with four-five being great and the most I would ever want).
Also I don't think a game plan of building up lands for a large disintegrate is very reasonable in an attack deck. I like the spell simply as a form of removal vs hard to kill creatures (like Knight of the Holy Nimbus) and for sinking mana into for a finish. Both of these jobs it has been doing for me quite well. Storage Lands help with that last part when I need them to most of the time anyway.
tussius' points were totally correct.
currently the modo block meta is the most accurate and is also where many of the pro players are testing their builds for this weekends forthcoming block-constructed pro tour. if you are really bothered about block you should really keep up to date with this as then you'll understand why people might tune decks to beat ww (an example is a top8 consisting of only ww)
LOL, no ww in top 8 of Yoko....and as i said Teferi control rulling.
Originally Posted by FStranieri 3- I think MWA can't think about to win a U/R Teferi Control, MAYBE U/B or U/B/r, but still i don't believe. Damnation, Sudden Death besides counter and bouncings are just enough to keep MRA quiet.
Answer
Quote from Feuerdrache »
I'll be honest. That comment seems to show a lack of practice to me.
Tussius: i don't play in MTGO so i can't say anything about there, i just play by Magic Workstation and around here. the Match up MRA x Control is indeed an statistic, can't see any game of MRA x Control (except the bad builds, but you can't count that) being won by MRA. About Scryb i ment MGA, but anyway you see them pretty much around yet, but even the timberware, groundbraker and friends build, i never see them won a game vs U/R Control. So i can't state they have a chance, besides bad luck.
Magic Workstation is filled with terrible players and people who do not comprehend the rules. I don't treat testing results from Magic Workstation as credible.
MTGO event results are the most credible and influential, or were until Yokohama.
Really, in a constructed block deck tournament, would you create a deck to face an specific kind of deck and expect to win it? No more comments.
Again, he did NOT create his deck only to beat White Weenie. I don't think he even meant to tune it towards beating white (his words were, "I haven't lost any games against white," not "I tuned this to beat white"), but that's what Dead/Gone's good against.
You want to continue arguing with me on this?
Look at the decks from Yokohama. All of them were tuned to beat White Weenie. It is the biggest threat in the format. Some decks were playing Red mainly for Sulfur Elemental; there were Mono-Red aggro decks playing Blood Knight, Emissary and Dead/Gone; decks everywhere tuned for beating White Weenie. You aren't simply arguing with me any more. You're now arguing with a field of professionals.
Really? What you expect to bounce against control?
Akroma of Fury, any of the Dragon legends, Stronghold Overseer, Spectral Force. Any of their win conditions, because none of them have haste, so you can buy yourself a bunch of time.
I'm sure you could combine the damage to take down a Wall of Roots, or you could frag a Scryb Ranger. Some of these decks have Thunderscape Battlemages, some of them Mystic Snakes. Usually there's something to frag with Dead, but if there isn't, Gone's plenty useful.
If my opponent's at 2, he's already lost anyway. It doesn't really matter if I can kill him immediately or in two turns. There's no way out at that point.
It may seem counterintuitive for me to say that, but it's the honest truth. There's a high density of burn in this deck, so while it will happen on occasion that you'll be stuck with only Dead/Gones in hand with the opponent at 2, it will happen far more often that you'll be happy to bounce a dude with Gone, or save a mana with Dead (mana that could be used to suspend a Rift Bolt or play a dork).
Again, if they're at 2, odds are good you'll be able to stick something at some point that kills them. There isn't much life gain in this environment, and none of it is playable, so once they're at 2 they're staying there, making every last burn spell in your deck lethal. With that kind of setup, who needs immediacy?
Lets see WW cards: Soltari Priest (can't be hit), Knight of the Holy Nimbus (regenerate or just cast in turn 3 to kill a turn 2 card), later cards, being the reason for this bounce, Calciderm (can´t be targeted). So if this deck is made for WW, why have a card that can't destroy half of their deck's creature cards?
Are you insinuating that Sudden Shock is better in _any_ of these scenarios? Because it really isn't.
Where is Gone useful against White Weenie? In combating Griffin Guide, particularly one that is intended for a Serra Avenger.
And just to tell you that a well balanced control deck can handle this card disadvantage very well, Blue is the cantrip color: Ancestral Vision, Think Twice and Careful Consideration all in your turn. You can even Bewilder a Keldon Marauder cause he's gonna die next turn, and buy a card . (Before you take me serious, i'm just kidding about this card.)
I don't really give a **** if control can handle the card disadvantage or not. Of course it can handle it, but my point was that it really doesn't want to have to deal with the card loss.
Maybe i'm not a native speaker, but lived in US for 2 years, so I can guarantee you that i don't see any harsh comment, i just said that i see no point in his statements, simply for the reasons i already stated.
To me, it came off as a condescending way of saying, "Shut up," which is already a rude thing to do.
And remember that I'm the moderator here, and if I feel you're being offensive in an argument, I will put a stop to it.
I don't like that card. Just, in general. Don't like it.
It would work if we went to a suspend top-down design, with Timecrafting, Gargadon, Fury Charm (also useful for killing Lenses!) and such.
Lately I've been growing increasingly unhappy with Rift Bolt. Suspeding it, while cheap, takes almost all of the value out of it besides being simply three damage. I'm almost never happy with its results while suspending it. Unsuspended it suffers from being a three mana sorc... Not very impressive. Dead//Gone has been replaceing it with alarming frequancy in games two and three... Almost to the point where I'm thinking I should just main deck them. But then what to do with the Bolts? They are powerful but also not what I consider something one would sideboard either...
Just sitting here the only times I go "I wish I had Rift Bolt" is vs Serra Avenger... Nothing else really comes to mind. And what's worse is vs the very same deck (White Weenie) nearly any other time I'm going "I wish I had Dead//Gone". So my question is what are your main targets with Bolt? What do you like about it? What deck types would you love to use it against? ect...
Perhaps I'm missing the obvious/the decks I face are not giving me proper targets for it...
Or maybe my deck (being almost 50% creatures) just doesn't have the build to run it well. Thoughts?
~Nim
Magic Workstation is filled with terrible players and people who do not comprehend the rules. I don't treat testing results from Magic Workstation as credible.
MTGO event results are the most credible and influential, or were until Yokohama.
Do you play in Magic Workstation?
Again, he did NOT create his deck only to beat White Weenie. I don't think he even meant to tune it towards beating white (his words were, "I haven't lost any games against white," not "I tuned this to beat white"), but that's what Dead/Gone's good against.
You want to continue arguing with me on this?
Look at the decks from Yokohama. All of them were tuned to beat White Weenie. It is the biggest threat in the format. Some decks were playing Red mainly for Sulfur Elemental; there were Mono-Red aggro decks playing Blood Knight, Emissary and Dead/Gone; decks everywhere tuned for beating White Weenie. You aren't simply arguing with me any more. You're now arguing with a field of professionals.
As i remember, somebody told me that its valid to tune a deck to face a specific kind of deck, now is turning back. About Sulfur Elemental, he's indeed in some decks, but not just because white, but for its power too. Besides if the deck builder found something to replace it with the same power, he won't hesitate, since they are not facing a white deck (what's gonna happen alot ahead in this tournament.
Akroma of Fury, any of the Dragon legends, Stronghold Overseer, Spectral Force. Any of their win conditions, because none of them have haste, so you can buy yourself a bunch of time.
I made up my mind, against aggro deck, Dead/Gone is indeed better than Sudden Shock, but not against control.
I'm sure you could combine the damage to take down a Wall of Roots, or you could frag a Scryb Ranger. Some of these decks have Thunderscape Battlemages, some of them Mystic Snakes. Usually there's something to frag with Dead, but if there isn't, Gone's plenty useful.
Agreed, as said above.
Weren't you just saying something about how worthless it is to hit creatures for two?
Nope, i was saying about versatility against WW, since Sudden Shock hit creatures for 2 as well.
If my opponent's at 2, he's already lost anyway. It doesn't really matter if I can kill him immediately or in two turns. There's no way out at that point.
Really, there are ALOT of scenarios that with your opponent in 2 that he can even win the game. That depends how's your life, what cards he have in hand, and alot of things that a magic player should know.
It may seem counterintuitive for me to say that, but it's the honest truth. There's a high density of burn in this deck, so while it will happen on occasion that you'll be stuck with only Dead/Gones in hand with the opponent at 2, it will happen far more often that you'll be happy to bounce a dude with Gone, or save a mana with Dead (mana that could be used to suspend a Rift Bolt or play a dork).
You're supposing he has a creature in play. Again supposing an aggro match, cause as is happening in Yoko, with Teferi in table, gone is gone.
Again, if they're at 2, odds are good you'll be able to stick something at some point that kills them. There isn't much life gain in this environment, and none of it is playable, so once they're at 2 they're staying there, making every last burn spell in your deck lethal. With that kind of setup, who needs immediacy?
Depends there are alot of them
Are you insinuating that Sudden Shock is better in _any_ of these scenarios? Because it really isn't.
Where is Gone useful against White Weenie? In combating Griffin Guide, particularly one that is intended for a Serra Avenger.
Too much specific, don't you think.
Ironically, Yokohama has supported my position.
Yes, this is true, but i don't believe later on.
Really? I hope you won, because anyone that plays Shocks in control is a terrible deckbuilder.
Too much presumptuous. Beside world champion, its really hard to someone do that statement.
I don't really give a **** if control can handle the card disadvantage or not. Of course it can handle it, but my point was that it really doesn't want to have to deal with the card loss.
Can't believe you said that. That depends on your purpose, if this loss is managed for a better cause, there is no problem. If blue wants to, it can, so again too much presumption that it doesn't.
Bad news for you.
You may not see the trophy under my name, but I assure you that it is there.
Really, me too, but i just can't see where this change a bit.
To me, it came off as a condescending way of saying, "Shut up," which is already a rude thing to do.
And remember that I'm the moderator here, and if I feel you're being offensive in an argument, I will put a stop to it.
Measure your words, i'm a lawyer, its a public forum, you can't just "put a stop to it" because you "feel", without paying the price. Remember J. i know your name and address, so, while i don't indeed be rude with someone, don't threat.
Hugs
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No, for the reasons mentioned above. I'd only ever play on it if I was doing testing with one of my friends - and I prefer paper testing, anyway. I never use the public servers.
As i remember, somebody told me that its valid to tune a deck to face a specific kind of deck, now is turning back. About Sulfur Elemental, he's indeed in some decks, but not just because white, but for its power too. Besides if the deck builder found something to replace it with the same power, he won't hesitate, since they are not facing a white deck (what's gonna happen alot ahead in this tournament.
He's also there for split second, which is the far more relevant side of his abilities in Yokohama, given the lack of White Weenie.
Really, there are ALOT of scenarios that with your opponent in 2 that he can even win the game. That depends how's your life, what cards he have in hand, and alot of things that a magic player should know.
It's so hard for me to make that statement for a reason. :/
You're supposing he has a creature in play. Again supposing an aggro match, cause as is happening in Yoko, with Teferi in table, gone is gone.
Dead is just about as good against Teferi as Sudden Shock, although it would be nice to assure that you're going to kill the dude. Perhaps these should be used together; maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.
No, it really isn't. Otherwise that scenario means the Red deck loses - RDW in general can't deal with a 5/5 flyer with vigilance.
It's useful for stopping Griffin Guide in general, really. Griffin Guide is a pain in the ass for this deck, and Gone's a good solution to it.
Dead/Gone is much more obviously useful against Green, which will now be seen everywhere thanks to it making Top 8 in three different decks.
(Note for posterity: Spectral Force making 11 appearances in Top 8 decks at Yokohama doesn't contradict my earlier arguments about it, because what I was saying earlier was that it doesn't appear in MTGO events any more (based on Tussius' account of such things). I never said it wasn't a valid deck.)
Too much presumptuous. Beside world champion, its really hard to someone do that statement.
Shock is bad in control because control decks don't need reach, ever. Therefore, its best use is as a removal spell, and 2 damage from a Red source is perhaps the removal spell that is the easiest to protect against:
-> None of control's win conditions are ever vulnerable to it.
-> White decks usually pack protection from red.
-> Green decks have creatures that are too large to be shot by a Shock.
-> Black decks are perhaps the most vulnerable aggro decks to a Shock, but Suicide Black is always strong against it (they use things like Juzam Djinn or, perhaps more relevantly, Plague Sliver).
Can't believe you said that. That depends on your purpose, if this loss is managed for a better cause, there is no problem. If blue wants to, it can, so again too much presumption that it doesn't.
Well, there's usually much better removal to be had. It's all well and good to live the dream of Lightning Axe + Fiery Temper but that doesn't happen very often.
In control, you've generally always got mana advantage, so your removal doesn't need to cost only a single mana. The additional cost of the discard is a big issue. In general, I never want to discard a card in my hand if I can help it. Plus, imagine if the Lightning Axe met a Dismal Failure. Frowns.
Measure your words, i'm a lawyer, its a public forum, you can't just "put a stop to it" because you "feel", without paying the price. Remember J. i know your name and address, so, while i don't indeed be rude with someone, don't threat.
This is not a public forum. it's privately owned and operated. Just because membership is free doesn't mean this isn't a private discussion board. The people who own this board have assigned me to moderate these boards. They trust me to be fair and objective, and I like to think that I am. My proof is that I've been engaging you instead of deleting your posts and giving you warnings for them.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt because it seemed rather uncalled for, and you don't strike me as the type of person who would willingly demean someone in such a manner.
But now, I have to do this: I don't care if you're a lawyer. I don't care if you know my name and address. You will NOT threaten me, or anyone else, on these forums. Is that understood?
Raphael Levy
Pro Tour-Yokohama Top 8 (just to see how's life...the only MRA player in TOP8 plays Sudden Shock and not Dead/Gone) Main Deck
60 cards Sideboard21 Mountain
1 Molten Slagheap
2 Fungal Reaches
24 land
erm dude the t8 in yoko is
3x teferi ubx
1x mono red aggro
4x gr/x heavies.
hardly the domination you mentioned but is obviously important.
note all the ww hate there too
Mike G: just because there is a sided Sulfur (present only in 3 sides and 1 main (MRA)), its not focused on ww, its prepared for. The same way people side cards for artifacts or enchants when needed, there is a large difference on it. You can't say Sudden Death, Damnation, Think Twice, Teferi, Akroma, Bogardan or any other cards on that made the deck a ww hate deck. Telling the truth, just the Raphael Levy MRA is in that way. So your not right.
Mike G: Wild Emissary was only in main red decks (those not running blue). Fortune Thief is not a ww hate card, its there for the card itself, keep you alive a little longer. Teferi Moat is there for any color that can aggro (Green, White, Red).
About Sulfur Elemental, you can see in game descriptions that, even not facing white, he's main deck, seen play, just to prove that it's there for the card itself, not just for white hate (3/2 for 3 with flah and split second).
And for what i said before, 2 Teferi Decks made their way to final, and of course, the U/B Wafo-Tapa won.
I'll state again, focusing a deck is a specific match up, isn't the best strategy you should take, 'cause you'll need to be lucky to win. You always must do, as EVER was made in Magic, prepare for the most possibilities you can cover.
Feuerdrache: i don't care you ERASED my post, i have saved it. I just want you to remember what i said, and think about your actions, and try to get a better moderator, be more humble to admit your mistakes, and be more polite criticizing other people ideas, neither be too selfish just because your a moderator of a forum, this won't give you a nice house, a nice car, the hottest chick around, or million dollars. Just treat the others well, be a nice guy, and everybody will like you, cause despite what i said, i indeed think you're a good deck builder (but as any normal person, sometimes do mistakes, but you need to learn to don't feel worse just because you did), you just need to learn how to communicate with others, this is gonna help you be in charge of something important in future (besides you will grown up as a person)
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Mike G: Wild Emissary was only in main red decks (those not running blue).
I'm not sure what you mean.
Wildfire Emissary (a card that, unlike the ones comeing up next, is almost strictly for the WW match up) appeared in 1/4 of the top 8...
Fortune Thief is not a ww hate card, its there for the card itself, keep you alive a little longer.
This doesn't make much sense. No card is there "for the card itself". They are there for specific reasons, to do specific jobs. Fortune Thief, useful vs more then one deck, is still anti-WW. It's just also anti-(insert deck lacking removal) too. No one is saying these decks are full of cards useful in only one match up but that doesn't mean they don't hose WW at the same time.
About Sulfur Elemental, you can see in game descriptions that, even not facing white, he's main deck, seen play, just to prove that it's there for the card itself, not just for white hate (3/2 for 3 with flah and split second).
See the above, Cards can be useful (and should be ideally) for more then one thing, that doesn't change the fact that Elemental still hose out WW...
I might argue though, that in the end, hoseing WW was it's main job when it was added to the SB.
I'll state again, focusing a deck is a specific match up, isn't the best strategy you should take, 'cause you'll need to be lucky to win. You always must do, as EVER was made in Magic, prepare for the most possibilities you can cover.
Actually, not only is focusing on decks a good stratagey, it may very well be the most important thing you do when preparing for a tourney. Metagameing is really what tournement magic is all about: Picking the deck that does the best vs the expected field. In a bubble, a deck might be fairly weak but if the field is made up mostly of decks it has good matches against then it becomes the deck of choice. On the flip side, a deck that is more powerful but happens to have a bad match up vs the expected field is then a poor choice.
As with most things in life it is all about the context.
Feuerdrache: i don't care you ERASED my post, i have saved it. I just want you to remember what i said, and think about your actions, and try to get a better moderator, be more humble to admit your mistakes, and be more polite criticizing other people ideas, neither be too selfish just because your a moderator of a forum, this won't give you a nice house, a nice car, the hottest chick around, or million dollars. Just treat the others well, be a nice guy, and everybody will like you, cause despite what i said, i indeed think you're a good deck builder (but as any normal person, sometimes do mistakes, but you need to learn to don't feel worse just because you did), you just need to learn how to communicate with others, this is gonna help you be in charge of something important in future (besides you will grown up as a person)
I won't comment here other then to say, I don't think you have much of a case FStranieri. If anything, I think Feuerdrache has been quite patient...
It might be a good idea just to drop this discussion before anything more happens.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Wildfire Emissary (a card that, unlike the ones comeing up next, is almost strictly for the WW match up) appeared in 1/4 of the top 8...
This doesn't make much sense. No card is there "for the card itself". They are there for specific reasons, to do specific jobs. Fortune Thief, useful vs more then one deck, is still anti-WW. It's just also anti-(insert deck lacking removal) too. No one is saying these decks are full of cards useful in only one match up but that doesn't mean they don't hose WW at the same time.
Agreed, Moat hoses alot of decks, including WW.
See the above, Cards can be useful (and should be ideally) for more then one thing, that doesn't change the fact that Elemental still hose out WW...
I might argue though, that in the end, hoseing WW was it's main job when it was added to the SB.
Ok... And? What would your point be exactly?
Actually, not only is focusing on decks a good stratagey, it may very well be the most important thing you do when preparing for a tourney. Metagameing is really what tournement magic is all about: Picking the deck that does the best vs the expected field. In a bubble, a deck might be fairly weak but if the field is made up mostly of decks it has good matches against then it becomes the deck of choice. On the flip side, a deck that is more powerful but happens to have a bad match up vs the expected field is then a poor choice.
As with most things in life it is all about the context.
I won't comment here other then to say, I don't think you have much of a case FStranieri. If anything, I think Feuerdrache has been quite patient...
It might be a good idea just to drop this discussion before anything more happens.
Just an idea...
~Nim
1st Statement) what i meant is what you said, it was ever sided and only for ww.
2nd Statement) what i mean by "its there for itself", is exactly what you said, it's there to do a specific job, so agreed.
3rd Statement) well, you're agreeing with me again, no more things to comment.
4th Statement) exactly, i was pointing that naming a card as a specific deck hate is normal, but an entire deck is nonsense. As you told by yourself when sided it has the intention specific to ww (agreed), when main not just to it.
5th Statement) This is about something i said before this post about having Teferi control rulling the enviroment.
6th Statement) Its not all true. When facing a tournament, of course you should consider what you can find there. Metagame is not just discovering what's gonna be the most common deck, but create a deck that is able to deal with all nuances that appear there. That is the most reason for sideboard.
7th Statement) That kind of thing isn't for you decide if there is a case here, its ever for a judge do that job. It won't be my first case or the last one, and i guarantee you that i'm completly prepared for "anything more happen", but as long as he drops his atitute about me, i won't continue this talk. About be patient...is always a good thing to be...
Mike G: just because there is a sided Sulfur (present only in 3 sides and 1 main (MRA)), its not focused on ww, its prepared for. The same way people side cards for artifacts or enchants when needed, there is a large difference on it. You can't say Sudden Death, Damnation, Think Twice, Teferi, Akroma, Bogardan or any other cards on that made the deck a ww hate deck. Telling the truth, just the Raphael Levy MRA is in that way. So your not right.
So either Levy and Tomoharu where both heavily hateing on WW (which again makes that at least 1/4 of the top 8) or you need to clearify you statement better. It also appears to me that you are argueing that the deck wasn't "focused on" and are instead calling it "prepared for". I must ask what the line is for you before it goes from one to the other? Cards that are only used for protection vs a color and cards with x/-1 to that same color seem very focused to me.
4th Statement) exactly, i was pointing that naming a card as a specific deck hate is normal, but an entire deck is nonsense. As you told by yourself when sided it has the intention specific to ww (agreed), when main not just to it.
So when the card is main decked it is not hate but it is when it is sideboarded?
The decks that MD Sulfur Elemental (in the top 8) are: Levy and Tomoharu, who we've already agreed where built for hateing out WW (due to the Wildfire Emissaries).
The decks that SB Sulfur Elemental (in the top 8) are: Kazuya and Carvalho, so they where running Elemental specifically to hate on WW.
So now we are up to 1/2 of the top 8 running heavily anti-ww lists.
6th Statement) Its not all true. When facing a tournament, of course you should consider what you can find there. Metagame is not just discovering what's gonna be the most common deck, but create a deck that is able to deal with all nuances that appear there. That is the most reason for sideboard.
But the point is it is impossible to deal with everything and thus you build to deal with the most likely. If 50% of the feild was WW (just an example) then you should focus on that deck since you will be faceing it about every other round. Yes you should sideboard for other decks (no one was saying otherwise) but your main deck should be very focused on that one deck.
7th Statement) That kind of thing isn't for you decide if there is a case here, its ever for a judge do that job. It won't be my first case or the last one, and i guarantee you that i'm completly prepared for "anything more happen". About be patient...is always a good thing to be...
Just a bit of friendly advice that's all. I'm not ordering you or anything, just makeing a suggestion.
Ever since the Future Sight Prerelease, Ghostflame is a must 4 copy main deck card even if it is an answer to pro-red creatures and it hits players for 3 damage also. Gathan Raiders is great with your only card in your hand being Fiery Temper to pay one red to do 3 damage to a blocker or player and then morph it to make it a 5/5 with the hellbent ability to have the player without any blockers receive 5 or 8 damage.
Ever since the Future Sight Prerelease, Ghostflame is a must 4 copy main deck card even if it is an answer to pro-red creatures and it hits players for 3 damage also. Gathan Raiders is great with your only card in your hand being Fiery Temper to pay one red to do 3 damage to a blocker or player and then morph it to make it a 5/5 with the hellbent ability to have the player without any blockers receive 5 or 8 damage.
I agree on the Raiders. I like them but the problem for me is I love all of my three drops so it will be hard to cut one. Sigh... Tough choices.
*Probably the Lancer will get benched... That's sad. *
Ghostflame on the other hand isn't as much of a must have for me. I don't care about Protection Red (the only one I ever see is priest and elemental takes care of him fine) so it's just the three damage for me... I don't run Temper and that was an instant three so I don't know if I'll use this at all. Then again my list is fairly strange so this doesn't necissarily mean anything to anyone else.
Hmm. From FS my favorite card for this one is Storm Entity. Has Haste, works in conjunction with the many low casting cost cards we have avalable, and has the potential to be a big beater. It does have the downside of causing you to more often play the restraint game with your rift bolts, but that's not nessecarily a bad thing.
the deck is pretty simple. just a whole bunch of burns. i run 24 lands cause i want to hit 4-5 land every single game. and in case of flooding i use zoietic carven(they dont come into play tapped ownage)
thunderblade charge: this card is really good. 3 mana for 3 damage is decent. its like a feiry temper but not an instant, the graveyard ability sometimes can really change games though. in a test game against blink rider. i literally just attacked with blood knight 4 times and thunderbladed my oppoent to death
i love x-spells so 4x disintergrate. especally with 24 lands maindeck
wildfire owns against mirror and ww.i actually took out serrated arrows since they r only really good against ww and only their priest and now we have both megalith+sulfur to deal with them and we can also race them for damage
Keldon Megaliths is fine to have at four. That it comes into play tapped won't really matter because most of the time you'll be playing your first spells at the second turn, and if you do somehow end up drawing all Megaliths on your opening hand, it's also highly probable that you'd have Simian Spirit Guide to back you up. This unlikely scenario is also hugely outweighed by the games you'd win by having two online Megaliths midgame, when you're starting to run out of gas.
On the other hand, Zoetic Caverns will do very little aside from being the another possibility of what that morph creature is. Most of the time, you'd be playing it as a land anyway, and drawing all Zoetic Caverns on your opening hand is really, really bad--even with one or two Spirit Guides. The nifty flip-into-a-damage-immune-land trick just doesn't outweigh these drawbacks.
The other cards I'm also considering are Tarox Bladewing and Thunderblade Charge. Tarox may just be too overcosted and would sit in your hand--then again it can potentially end a game just like that. Thunderblade Charge obviously feels like Hammer of Bogardan, and could possibly be better than Disintegrate in some contexts. It does a lot more than Sudden Shock, but I'm worried about the potential mana curve disruption.
I have no SB right now. I do plan on including some number of Wildfire Emissary simply because WW will still be played and it is pretty good in the mirror.
Wall of Roots is the worst card to face. A big question going into the PTQ Season (as well as next week in GP Strasbourg---that will NOT allow Future Sight cards which is bleepin' absurd) for Red Aggro players. Do we have to consider Lightning Axes in the board to remove their Walls (as well as potential giants they may play)? If nothing else, it has decent synergy with the Tempers.
I still have faith in the storage lands. It provides a good way to have mana available for a massive Disintegrate should it come down to that. I think two is the correct number on Megaliths simply because of the CIPT text.
OK, that's enough of my insanity right now.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't read anything LaPille. Your brain will thank you later. ----> VICTORY!
This is the Time Spiral block constructed forum. Your post belongs, it would seem in the "standard" forum.
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I would recommend that you guys play 2x Vesuva maindeck; the metagame seems like it will be focused on Urborg, so a wasteland variant isn't a bad thing to maindeck...
4 Vesuva total between main and side seems prudent, though I'm not sure how to balance the numbers of Vesuvas with the number of Megaliths.
I would have to agree with Kid A abouit the vesuva it seems warrented. urborg + tendrils is difficult for all aggro decks and a deck that can run 2 vesuva to counteract it when no other option is really available should.
I think Gargadon is essential. It's certainly important for reducing the effectiveness of an opponent's Tendrils or Acid Moss, but it's also a good card in it's own right. It really put alot of pressure on your opponent if you can suspend one within the first few turns. They won't be able to tap out because you can just tap all of your lands for a burn spell and then sac them to bring out the Garg. Thats a lot of damage that can really come out of nowhere.
Also, I've been trying out Brute Strength as a cheap way of getting through Wall of Roots. Dragon Whelp is another good card against any of the Big Mana decks with Wall and Spectral Force. You can usually get in some damage early before their big monsters come down, and the Whelp can often get those last few points through to finish them off.
Let me ask in a different way. How has it proven its worth, when it didn't (for you) before? What made you change your mind?
This is the important part of discussions. The why.
I would have to say that, while true I do mull a fair bit, I also imagine I would do the same at 24 just for the opposite reason (a hand with four or five lands it often a mull for a fast deck like this too). While I might be inclined to up my land count 1-2, going to 24 seems a bit extreem. Stopping at 2-3 lands is actually okay (with four-five being great and the most I would ever want).
Also I don't think a game plan of building up lands for a large disintegrate is very reasonable in an attack deck. I like the spell simply as a form of removal vs hard to kill creatures (like Knight of the Holy Nimbus) and for sinking mana into for a finish. Both of these jobs it has been doing for me quite well. Storage Lands help with that last part when I need them to most of the time anyway.
In short, I disagree but I think we may have differing views on what "running low" means. Which is understandable depending on deck builds.
~Nim
LOL, no ww in top 8 of Yoko....and as i said Teferi control rulling.
Answer
Lol....you were right.
Magic Workstation is filled with terrible players and people who do not comprehend the rules. I don't treat testing results from Magic Workstation as credible.
MTGO event results are the most credible and influential, or were until Yokohama.
Again, he did NOT create his deck only to beat White Weenie. I don't think he even meant to tune it towards beating white (his words were, "I haven't lost any games against white," not "I tuned this to beat white"), but that's what Dead/Gone's good against.
You want to continue arguing with me on this?
Look at the decks from Yokohama. All of them were tuned to beat White Weenie. It is the biggest threat in the format. Some decks were playing Red mainly for Sulfur Elemental; there were Mono-Red aggro decks playing Blood Knight, Emissary and Dead/Gone; decks everywhere tuned for beating White Weenie. You aren't simply arguing with me any more. You're now arguing with a field of professionals.
Akroma of Fury, any of the Dragon legends, Stronghold Overseer, Spectral Force. Any of their win conditions, because none of them have haste, so you can buy yourself a bunch of time.
I'm sure you could combine the damage to take down a Wall of Roots, or you could frag a Scryb Ranger. Some of these decks have Thunderscape Battlemages, some of them Mystic Snakes. Usually there's something to frag with Dead, but if there isn't, Gone's plenty useful.
Weren't you just saying something about how worthless it is to hit creatures for two?
If my opponent's at 2, he's already lost anyway. It doesn't really matter if I can kill him immediately or in two turns. There's no way out at that point.
It may seem counterintuitive for me to say that, but it's the honest truth. There's a high density of burn in this deck, so while it will happen on occasion that you'll be stuck with only Dead/Gones in hand with the opponent at 2, it will happen far more often that you'll be happy to bounce a dude with Gone, or save a mana with Dead (mana that could be used to suspend a Rift Bolt or play a dork).
Again, if they're at 2, odds are good you'll be able to stick something at some point that kills them. There isn't much life gain in this environment, and none of it is playable, so once they're at 2 they're staying there, making every last burn spell in your deck lethal. With that kind of setup, who needs immediacy?
Are you insinuating that Sudden Shock is better in _any_ of these scenarios? Because it really isn't.
Where is Gone useful against White Weenie? In combating Griffin Guide, particularly one that is intended for a Serra Avenger.
Ironically, Yokohama has supported my position.
Really? I hope you won, because anyone that plays Shocks in control is a terrible deckbuilder.
I don't really give a **** if control can handle the card disadvantage or not. Of course it can handle it, but my point was that it really doesn't want to have to deal with the card loss.
Bad news for you.
You may not see the trophy under my name, but I assure you that it is there.
To me, it came off as a condescending way of saying, "Shut up," which is already a rude thing to do.
And remember that I'm the moderator here, and if I feel you're being offensive in an argument, I will put a stop to it.
I don't like that card. Just, in general. Don't like it.
It would work if we went to a suspend top-down design, with Timecrafting, Gargadon, Fury Charm (also useful for killing Lenses!) and such.
Just sitting here the only times I go "I wish I had Rift Bolt" is vs Serra Avenger... Nothing else really comes to mind. And what's worse is vs the very same deck (White Weenie) nearly any other time I'm going "I wish I had Dead//Gone". So my question is what are your main targets with Bolt? What do you like about it? What deck types would you love to use it against? ect...
Perhaps I'm missing the obvious/the decks I face are not giving me proper targets for it...
Or maybe my deck (being almost 50% creatures) just doesn't have the build to run it well. Thoughts?
~Nim
Do you play in Magic Workstation?
As i remember, somebody told me that its valid to tune a deck to face a specific kind of deck, now is turning back. About Sulfur Elemental, he's indeed in some decks, but not just because white, but for its power too. Besides if the deck builder found something to replace it with the same power, he won't hesitate, since they are not facing a white deck (what's gonna happen alot ahead in this tournament.
I made up my mind, against aggro deck, Dead/Gone is indeed better than Sudden Shock, but not against control.
Agreed, as said above.
Nope, i was saying about versatility against WW, since Sudden Shock hit creatures for 2 as well.
Really, there are ALOT of scenarios that with your opponent in 2 that he can even win the game. That depends how's your life, what cards he have in hand, and alot of things that a magic player should know.
You're supposing he has a creature in play. Again supposing an aggro match, cause as is happening in Yoko, with Teferi in table, gone is gone.
Depends there are alot of them
Too much specific, don't you think.
Yes, this is true, but i don't believe later on.
Too much presumptuous. Beside world champion, its really hard to someone do that statement.
Can't believe you said that. That depends on your purpose, if this loss is managed for a better cause, there is no problem. If blue wants to, it can, so again too much presumption that it doesn't.
Really, me too, but i just can't see where this change a bit.
Measure your words, i'm a lawyer, its a public forum, you can't just "put a stop to it" because you "feel", without paying the price. Remember J. i know your name and address, so, while i don't indeed be rude with someone, don't threat.
Hugs
No, for the reasons mentioned above. I'd only ever play on it if I was doing testing with one of my friends - and I prefer paper testing, anyway. I never use the public servers.
He's also there for split second, which is the far more relevant side of his abilities in Yokohama, given the lack of White Weenie.
Depends on what job you need it to do against them. Against my BG control deck, for instance; I'd be much more frightened of Dead/Gone.
It's so hard for me to make that statement for a reason. :/
Dead is just about as good against Teferi as Sudden Shock, although it would be nice to assure that you're going to kill the dude. Perhaps these should be used together; maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.
No, it really isn't. Otherwise that scenario means the Red deck loses - RDW in general can't deal with a 5/5 flyer with vigilance.
It's useful for stopping Griffin Guide in general, really. Griffin Guide is a pain in the ass for this deck, and Gone's a good solution to it.
Dead/Gone is much more obviously useful against Green, which will now be seen everywhere thanks to it making Top 8 in three different decks.
(Note for posterity: Spectral Force making 11 appearances in Top 8 decks at Yokohama doesn't contradict my earlier arguments about it, because what I was saying earlier was that it doesn't appear in MTGO events any more (based on Tussius' account of such things). I never said it wasn't a valid deck.)
Shock is bad in control because control decks don't need reach, ever. Therefore, its best use is as a removal spell, and 2 damage from a Red source is perhaps the removal spell that is the easiest to protect against:
-> None of control's win conditions are ever vulnerable to it.
-> White decks usually pack protection from red.
-> Green decks have creatures that are too large to be shot by a Shock.
-> Black decks are perhaps the most vulnerable aggro decks to a Shock, but Suicide Black is always strong against it (they use things like Juzam Djinn or, perhaps more relevantly, Plague Sliver).
Well, there's usually much better removal to be had. It's all well and good to live the dream of Lightning Axe + Fiery Temper but that doesn't happen very often.
In control, you've generally always got mana advantage, so your removal doesn't need to cost only a single mana. The additional cost of the discard is a big issue. In general, I never want to discard a card in my hand if I can help it. Plus, imagine if the Lightning Axe met a Dismal Failure. Frowns.
It means I've been chosen by the users of this forum as the best strategist. That gives me a lot of weight to throw around in these discussions.
This is not a public forum. it's privately owned and operated. Just because membership is free doesn't mean this isn't a private discussion board. The people who own this board have assigned me to moderate these boards. They trust me to be fair and objective, and I like to think that I am. My proof is that I've been engaging you instead of deleting your posts and giving you warnings for them.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt because it seemed rather uncalled for, and you don't strike me as the type of person who would willingly demean someone in such a manner.
But now, I have to do this:
I don't care if you're a lawyer. I don't care if you know my name and address. You will NOT threaten me, or anyone else, on these forums. Is that understood?
Pro Tour-Yokohama Top 8 (just to see how's life...the only MRA player in TOP8 plays Sudden Shock and not Dead/Gone)
Main Deck
60 cards Sideboard21 Mountain
1 Molten Slagheap
2 Fungal Reaches
24 land
4 Blood Knight
4 Sulfur Elemental
2 Wildfire Emissary
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Magus of the Scroll
18 creatures
2 Sudden Shock(main deck!)
4 Fiery Temper
4 Browbeat
4 Rift Bolt
4 Disintegrate
18 other spells
2 Word of Seizing
3 Greater Gargadon
3 Avalanche Riders
2 Wildfire Emissary
4 Serrated Arrows
1 Eron the Relentless
15 sideboard cards
<snip>
Mike G: just because there is a sided Sulfur (present only in 3 sides and 1 main (MRA)), its not focused on ww, its prepared for. The same way people side cards for artifacts or enchants when needed, there is a large difference on it. You can't say Sudden Death, Damnation, Think Twice, Teferi, Akroma, Bogardan or any other cards on that made the deck a ww hate deck. Telling the truth, just the Raphael Levy MRA is in that way. So your not right.
About Sulfur Elemental, you can see in game descriptions that, even not facing white, he's main deck, seen play, just to prove that it's there for the card itself, not just for white hate (3/2 for 3 with flah and split second).
And for what i said before, 2 Teferi Decks made their way to final, and of course, the U/B Wafo-Tapa won.
I'll state again, focusing a deck is a specific match up, isn't the best strategy you should take, 'cause you'll need to be lucky to win. You always must do, as EVER was made in Magic, prepare for the most possibilities you can cover.
Feuerdrache: i don't care you ERASED my post, i have saved it. I just want you to remember what i said, and think about your actions, and try to get a better moderator, be more humble to admit your mistakes, and be more polite criticizing other people ideas, neither be too selfish just because your a moderator of a forum, this won't give you a nice house, a nice car, the hottest chick around, or million dollars. Just treat the others well, be a nice guy, and everybody will like you, cause despite what i said, i indeed think you're a good deck builder (but as any normal person, sometimes do mistakes, but you need to learn to don't feel worse just because you did), you just need to learn how to communicate with others, this is gonna help you be in charge of something important in future (besides you will grown up as a person)
I'm not sure what you mean.
Wildfire Emissary (a card that, unlike the ones comeing up next, is almost strictly for the WW match up) appeared in 1/4 of the top 8...
This doesn't make much sense. No card is there "for the card itself". They are there for specific reasons, to do specific jobs. Fortune Thief, useful vs more then one deck, is still anti-WW. It's just also anti-(insert deck lacking removal) too. No one is saying these decks are full of cards useful in only one match up but that doesn't mean they don't hose WW at the same time.
Agreed, Moat hoses alot of decks, including WW.
See the above, Cards can be useful (and should be ideally) for more then one thing, that doesn't change the fact that Elemental still hose out WW...
I might argue though, that in the end, hoseing WW was it's main job when it was added to the SB.
Ok... And? What would your point be exactly?
Actually, not only is focusing on decks a good stratagey, it may very well be the most important thing you do when preparing for a tourney. Metagameing is really what tournement magic is all about: Picking the deck that does the best vs the expected field. In a bubble, a deck might be fairly weak but if the field is made up mostly of decks it has good matches against then it becomes the deck of choice. On the flip side, a deck that is more powerful but happens to have a bad match up vs the expected field is then a poor choice.
As with most things in life it is all about the context.
I won't comment here other then to say, I don't think you have much of a case FStranieri. If anything, I think Feuerdrache has been quite patient...
It might be a good idea just to drop this discussion before anything more happens.
Just an idea...
~Nim
1st Statement) what i meant is what you said, it was ever sided and only for ww.
2nd Statement) what i mean by "its there for itself", is exactly what you said, it's there to do a specific job, so agreed.
3rd Statement) well, you're agreeing with me again, no more things to comment.
4th Statement) exactly, i was pointing that naming a card as a specific deck hate is normal, but an entire deck is nonsense. As you told by yourself when sided it has the intention specific to ww (agreed), when main not just to it.
5th Statement) This is about something i said before this post about having Teferi control rulling the enviroment.
6th Statement) Its not all true. When facing a tournament, of course you should consider what you can find there. Metagame is not just discovering what's gonna be the most common deck, but create a deck that is able to deal with all nuances that appear there. That is the most reason for sideboard.
7th Statement) That kind of thing isn't for you decide if there is a case here, its ever for a judge do that job. It won't be my first case or the last one, and i guarantee you that i'm completly prepared for "anything more happen", but as long as he drops his atitute about me, i won't continue this talk. About be patient...is always a good thing to be...
Hugs
I'm sorry but you're not very clear here. On one hand you say the above, "was only ever sided and only for ww", yet earlier you said:
So either Levy and Tomoharu where both heavily hateing on WW (which again makes that at least 1/4 of the top 8) or you need to clearify you statement better. It also appears to me that you are argueing that the deck wasn't "focused on" and are instead calling it "prepared for". I must ask what the line is for you before it goes from one to the other? Cards that are only used for protection vs a color and cards with x/-1 to that same color seem very focused to me.
Hmmm... Alright. We are not saying exactly the same things but I doubt this will go anywhere so...
So when the card is main decked it is not hate but it is when it is sideboarded?
The decks that MD Sulfur Elemental (in the top 8) are: Levy and Tomoharu, who we've already agreed where built for hateing out WW (due to the Wildfire Emissaries).
The decks that SB Sulfur Elemental (in the top 8) are: Kazuya and Carvalho, so they where running Elemental specifically to hate on WW.
So now we are up to 1/2 of the top 8 running heavily anti-ww lists.
I know and I wanted to ask what you ment by that. I mean R/G Good stuff put three in the top 8 as well.
But the point is it is impossible to deal with everything and thus you build to deal with the most likely. If 50% of the feild was WW (just an example) then you should focus on that deck since you will be faceing it about every other round. Yes you should sideboard for other decks (no one was saying otherwise) but your main deck should be very focused on that one deck.
Just a bit of friendly advice that's all. I'm not ordering you or anything, just makeing a suggestion.
Anyhow...
~Nim
I agree on the Raiders. I like them but the problem for me is I love all of my three drops so it will be hard to cut one. Sigh... Tough choices.
*Probably the Lancer will get benched... That's sad. *
Ghostflame on the other hand isn't as much of a must have for me. I don't care about Protection Red (the only one I ever see is priest and elemental takes care of him fine) so it's just the three damage for me... I don't run Temper and that was an instant three so I don't know if I'll use this at all. Then again my list is fairly strange so this doesn't necissarily mean anything to anyone else.
~Nim
What do you think will be taken out in Raph Levy's decklist now that FSight has been released?
Thanks!!
I think Tarox Bladewing could find a spot in place of Disintegrate, which would be sideboard for KothN.
23 Mountain
Creatures (24)
4 Magus of the Scroll
2 Greater Gargadon
4 Blood Knight
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Sulfur Elemental
2 Wildfire Emissary
4 Tarox Bladewing
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sudden Shock
3 Brute Force
2 Browbeat
2 Wildfire Emissary
4 Disintegrate
2 Greater Gargadon
4 Serrated Arrows
3 Word of Seizing
Standard: Project R
18 Mountain
4 Keldon Megaliths
Creatures:
4 Blood Knight
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sulfur Elemental
2 Magus of the Scroll
4 Fiery Temper
4 Brute Force
4 Sudden Shock
4 Rift Bolt
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
4 mogg war mashall
4 sulfur elemental
4 magus of the scroll
4 rift bolt
4 fiery temper
4 thunderblade charge
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Disintegrate
4 Keldon Megaliths
16 mountain
the deck is pretty simple. just a whole bunch of burns. i run 24 lands cause i want to hit 4-5 land every single game. and in case of flooding i use zoietic carven(they dont come into play tapped ownage)
thunderblade charge: this card is really good. 3 mana for 3 damage is decent. its like a feiry temper but not an instant, the graveyard ability sometimes can really change games though. in a test game against blink rider. i literally just attacked with blood knight 4 times and thunderbladed my oppoent to death
i love x-spells so 4x disintergrate. especally with 24 lands maindeck
my sideboard:
4 dead/gone
3 word of seizing
4 Wildfire Emissary
wildfire owns against mirror and ww.i actually took out serrated arrows since they r only really good against ww and only their priest and now we have both megalith+sulfur to deal with them and we can also race them for damage
Keldon Megaliths is fine to have at four. That it comes into play tapped won't really matter because most of the time you'll be playing your first spells at the second turn, and if you do somehow end up drawing all Megaliths on your opening hand, it's also highly probable that you'd have Simian Spirit Guide to back you up. This unlikely scenario is also hugely outweighed by the games you'd win by having two online Megaliths midgame, when you're starting to run out of gas.
On the other hand, Zoetic Caverns will do very little aside from being the another possibility of what that morph creature is. Most of the time, you'd be playing it as a land anyway, and drawing all Zoetic Caverns on your opening hand is really, really bad--even with one or two Spirit Guides. The nifty flip-into-a-damage-immune-land trick just doesn't outweigh these drawbacks.
The other cards I'm also considering are Tarox Bladewing and Thunderblade Charge. Tarox may just be too overcosted and would sit in your hand--then again it can potentially end a game just like that. Thunderblade Charge obviously feels like Hammer of Bogardan, and could possibly be better than Disintegrate in some contexts. It does a lot more than Sudden Shock, but I'm worried about the potential mana curve disruption.
Thoughts?
Augustin, Rasputin, Bruna, Brago, Ojutai
4 Magus of the Scroll
4 Blood Knight
4 Sulfur Elemental
3 Keldon Maradues
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fiery Temper
4 Ghostfire
3 Disintegrate
3 Thunderblade Charge
20 Mountain
2 Fungal Reaches
2 Keldon Megaliths
I have no SB right now. I do plan on including some number of Wildfire Emissary simply because WW will still be played and it is pretty good in the mirror.
Wall of Roots is the worst card to face. A big question going into the PTQ Season (as well as next week in GP Strasbourg---that will NOT allow Future Sight cards which is bleepin' absurd) for Red Aggro players. Do we have to consider Lightning Axes in the board to remove their Walls (as well as potential giants they may play)? If nothing else, it has decent synergy with the Tempers.
I still have faith in the storage lands. It provides a good way to have mana available for a massive Disintegrate should it come down to that. I think two is the correct number on Megaliths simply because of the CIPT text.
OK, that's enough of my insanity right now.
Some people just love Jace a little too much
This is the Time Spiral block constructed forum. Your post belongs, it would seem in the "standard" forum.
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I would recommend that you guys play 2x Vesuva maindeck; the metagame seems like it will be focused on Urborg, so a wasteland variant isn't a bad thing to maindeck...
4 Vesuva total between main and side seems prudent, though I'm not sure how to balance the numbers of Vesuvas with the number of Megaliths.
Thanks to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for resizing a painting by Stanley Donwood
Also, I've been trying out Brute Strength as a cheap way of getting through Wall of Roots. Dragon Whelp is another good card against any of the Big Mana decks with Wall and Spectral Force. You can usually get in some damage early before their big monsters come down, and the Whelp can often get those last few points through to finish them off.