If you're playing against a 7years old boy. They play triskelavus, then create 2-3 tokens. If we use take possession, they simply shoot at their own triskelavus, and then recur. If we take the land, we have to face his flying army, then he plays disenchant or his own take possession...
Many variations of this deck are reaching top 8's however I have a couple of observations about them. First as a generalization this deck has been combined/melded with U/B teachings in a lot of cases. See below for specific examples:
1) Nearly none of them run tarmogoyf.
Is this because he's just too easy to kill and we need more evasive win conditions? Is it better to run something else? What are the compelling arguments for running or not running goyf in this deck?
2) Shadowmage Infiltrator is present in many builds.
I think this is a good inclusion, and can definitely replace Foresee in Ruel's original build in addition to taking a Goyf slot if you decide to remove him from the deck.
3) Triskelavus + Academy Ruins has made it's way into a few builds as well.
This is a better win con than Tarmo in some cases, especially the long game.
4) Tolaria West is in a lot of builds for urborg and Academy Ruins digging.
Makes sense...
5) Temporal Isolation is often included for Mystic Enforcer as that additional teachings piece.
Many variations of this deck are reaching top 8's however I have a couple of observations about them. First as a generalization this deck has been combined/melded with U/B teachings in a lot of cases. See below for specific examples:
1) Nearly none of them run tarmogoyf.
Is this because he's just too easy to kill and we need more evasive win conditions? Is it better to run something else? What are the compelling arguments for running or not running goyf in this deck?
2) Shadowmage Infiltrator is present in many builds.
I think this is a good inclusion, and can definitely replace Foresee in Ruel's original build in addition to taking a Goyf slot if you decide to remove him from the deck.
3) Triskelavus + Academy Ruins has made it's way into a few builds as well.
This is a better win con than Tarmo in some cases, especially the long game.
4) Tolaria West is in a lot of builds for urborg and Academy Ruins digging.
Makes sense...
5) Temporal Isolation is often included for Mystic Enforcer as that additional teachings piece.
Thoughts?
Answers
1) I like Tarmogoyf because he's great against any aggro deck after a Damnation. With a playset of Careful Consideration in the deck, should be easy to pump your own Tarmogoyf anyway.
3) I still prefer Bogardan Hellkite over the Triskelavus & Academy Ruins package. We can tutor for the dragon, play in response to attack phase, etc. We really don't need the recursion against aggro anyway with all our hate geared towards them. Against control decks, it always comes down to the factory, so whatever creatures are in the deck are irrelevant.
4) If you run Ruel's list, Tolaria West isn't really needed. If you have cut some of the original drawing spells, then I guess 1-2 copies of the tutor land couldn't hurt.
1) I like Tarmogoyf because he's great against any aggro deck after a Damnation. With a playset of Careful Consideration in the deck, should be easy to pump your own Tarmogoyf anyway.
3) I still prefer Bogardan Hellkite over the Triskelavus & Academy Ruins package. We can tutor for the dragon, play in response to attack phase, etc. We really don't need the recursion against aggro anyway with all our hate geared towards them. Against control decks, it always comes down to the factory, so whatever creatures are in the deck are irrelevant.
4) If you run Ruel's list, Tolaria West isn't really needed. If you have cut some of the original drawing spells, then I guess 1-2 copies of the tutor land couldn't hurt.
5) Yeah, it could definitely fit one MD or SB.
Right now I'm playing with 2 hellkites, and 4 infiltrators. I played with 1 and the trisk combo and didn't like it as much. For now I have gone this route and I also run 2 factories. The amount of control mirrors makes it necessary. I eliminated foresee since I added the infiltrators and some of my toolbox pieces have morphed a little. I run no green any longer. Mostly U/B/R with some white out of the sideboard. Overall I still favor this deck over straight B/U.
I have added Quagnoth to the sideboard. He's valuable against the bounce decks.
I've yet to run Tolaria West as I don't like it, but I've seen it on other lists.
I just went 4-2-1 with this deck at a ptq (losing and drawing to blue green morphs, and conceding to teachings in the last round because we would have drawn, making it impossible for either of us to top 8) and the deck is very good, especially in the hands of a good player ( i was told that I didn't make any play mistakes all day by spectators). I would have won both of my draws if there was more time in the rounds, (and my opponents weren't so slow).
Here's the list I played:
I played a variant at a ptq and did poorly because: I hadn't tested very much; I made the deck that morning (or tried to, I only got 1 Damnation and no Haunting Hymns; I was very tired from being at GPSF the day before (I did 3-3 with a very rouge deck) and therefore made some fatal mistakes, namely losing a match due to forgetting to pay Slaughter Pacts upkeep cost. My point is though that I played 3 Hellkites, 1 Momentary Blink, and 2 main deck Teferi's Moat and all turned out to awesome changes. The 3 Hellkites was probably too many; but two would be perfect. Blink+Hellkite=gg (both of which can be gotten with a single Mystical Teachings); Hellkite at end of turn, attack, blink and flashback. I won most of my games like that. The Moat is god against Predator, Goyf variants, white weenie, RDW... pretty much anything except control and most combo. At worst you can toss it to Consideration.
Take Possession has split second...
1) Nearly none of them run tarmogoyf.
Is this because he's just too easy to kill and we need more evasive win conditions? Is it better to run something else? What are the compelling arguments for running or not running goyf in this deck?
2) Shadowmage Infiltrator is present in many builds.
I think this is a good inclusion, and can definitely replace Foresee in Ruel's original build in addition to taking a Goyf slot if you decide to remove him from the deck.
3) Triskelavus + Academy Ruins has made it's way into a few builds as well.
This is a better win con than Tarmo in some cases, especially the long game.
4) Tolaria West is in a lot of builds for urborg and Academy Ruins digging.
Makes sense...
5) Temporal Isolation is often included for Mystic Enforcer as that additional teachings piece.
Thoughts?
Answers
1) I like Tarmogoyf because he's great against any aggro deck after a Damnation. With a playset of Careful Consideration in the deck, should be easy to pump your own Tarmogoyf anyway.
2) Shadowmage Infiltrator also works very well because UBx teachings can only deal with him via Damnation or Tendrils of Corruption. The only real bad thing about him is that he gets blocked all day by Urza's Factory tokens.
3) I still prefer Bogardan Hellkite over the Triskelavus & Academy Ruins package. We can tutor for the dragon, play in response to attack phase, etc. We really don't need the recursion against aggro anyway with all our hate geared towards them. Against control decks, it always comes down to the factory, so whatever creatures are in the deck are irrelevant.
4) If you run Ruel's list, Tolaria West isn't really needed. If you have cut some of the original drawing spells, then I guess 1-2 copies of the tutor land couldn't hurt.
5) Yeah, it could definitely fit one MD or SB.
Right now I'm playing with 2 hellkites, and 4 infiltrators. I played with 1 and the trisk combo and didn't like it as much. For now I have gone this route and I also run 2 factories. The amount of control mirrors makes it necessary. I eliminated foresee since I added the infiltrators and some of my toolbox pieces have morphed a little. I run no green any longer. Mostly U/B/R with some white out of the sideboard. Overall I still favor this deck over straight B/U.
I have added Quagnoth to the sideboard. He's valuable against the bounce decks.
I've yet to run Tolaria West as I don't like it, but I've seen it on other lists.
Here's the list I played:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Graven Cairens
5 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Molten Slagheap
1 Calciform Pools
2 Urza's Factory
2 Tolaria West
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Bogardan Hellkite
Spells
2 Mystical Teachings
4 Damnation
4 Careful Consideration
2 Tendrils of Coruption
1 Imp's Mischief
2 Foresee
1 Haunting Hymm
4 Coalition Relic
4 Prismatic Lens
3 Take Possession
3 Slaughter Pact
2 Vesuvan Shapeshifter
1 Imp's Mischief
2 Extirpate
1 Heroes Remembered
3 Aven Riftwatcher
3 Dodecapod
2 Boom//Bust
1 Pull From Eternity
Thank you Feste
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