I saw Thornweald Archer being boarded in against the mirror match tonight on MTGO. What do people think of this? It gives the deck a way to kill both Tarmogoyf and Mystic Enforcer.
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What can we do against decks with riftwing cloudskate and venser
The bounce hurts alot, but this is what i'm thinking
the only remvoe they have is blue, scragnoth or quagnoth might help or may be plain slow
What can we sideboard/maindeck against pickles and bouncing decks
You can splash red for dead // gone and white has sunlance. Other than that i really don't know. I have lost to that deck everytime i have played against it last night on workstation.
After playing the GW Goyf deck a bunch, I just felt it would be hated out at this weekend's metagame (Richmond, VA), so I audibled to the Riftwing Cloudskate/Venser arrangement with Momentary Blink.
Unfortunately, I didn't draw Blink in either game I played against GW Goyf, and lost both of my best matchups. That stung.
To beat the UW Blink decks or UG Goyf decks, just play out as many creatures as you possibly can, and overwhelm your opponent. Remember, the only "removal" that White has is Sunlance, Temporal Isolation, and Bound in Silence, Blue has bounce, but no hard removal aside from Psionic Blast, and Green has no targeted removal (no one plays Utopia Vow, nor should they). Therefore, creature advantage is huge in this type of matchup, so start running the max number of creatures out onto the field, use all possible mana every turn, and force the Blue mage to bounce everything. It also helps that their bounce creatures (Riftwing Cloudskate and Venser, Shaper Savant) are both smaller than most of your creatures, so they can't trade effectively.
However, reusable bounce effects + Aven Riftwatcher is NOT a good matchup for GW.
To point out the obvious... you cant target Calciderm.
To point out the *other* obvious part: Stonecloaker (and all the other bounce-rescue guys) don't involve targeting anything. Bouncing your 'Derm is a perfectly legit move.
I'd just like to chime in and back Jiaozy up here. When testing almost straight UB against this deck I had multiple games where I thought I was going to win but couldn't put up the gas to continue controlling the game. I think UB won maybe 2 games out of 10-12 that night. I don't have the exact record with me since they're with my playtest partner but UB didnt' seem to fair very well.
And personally I'm more afraid of the GWr versions than the straight GW versions; at least whenever I'm playing the control deck.
I Played The Gw Version And Also The Gwr Version And In Both Versions Had Good Matchup Against Ub Versions. The Key Is Playing Saffi With Any Of Your Threats To Help Against Damnation And Tendrils. Put The Griffin On The Saffi And Play Call Of The Herd. Im Really Having Alot Of Trouble With The Tapa Sliver Wild Pair Decks And To A Lesser Extent The Reanimator Decks. Any One Has Good Tech Ideas Against These Decks? (specially De Sliver Wild Pair Decks).
In the U/B testing , did you face anything like the Korlash build on starcity? Loaded up with korlash, slaughter pact, tendrils and damnation? Also, how does this deck do? What are it's weaknesses as far as matchups.....I might consider jumping ship to this deck for the PTQ's if you guys can convince me
Can I get a more updated recent version deck list?
Cause the list I am playing now is the wining version from montreal. The Thrill of the hunts which I am guessing are used as combat tricks to keep your dudes alive. I really don't like them if we are so afraid of enchants and tendrils then why not drop a few gemstone mines into the deck and replace the thrills with momentary blinks?
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Thrill of the Hunt, in my view, is used mainly for the mirror match. It gives your Tarmogoyf that extra power it needs in order to kill their 'Goyf, or your Mystic Enforcer the extra power to kill their Enforcer.
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Uhmm...
Slaughter Pact, Tendrils and Sudden Death all bounce off Whirling Dervish and Mystic Enforcer, so even a lonely Dervish is worth a Damantion because you'll lose the game from it almost for sure if you're playing almost monoblack.
Plus, it's not even said that if they Damnation you don't have a Saffi on the board to save that Enforcer/Dervish
Even if you don't see Pro-Black creatures (but playing 8 should make you see at least 2-3 of them) you have lots of Damnation resiliency with Saffi, Call of the Herd and Griffin Guide.
The GWr version is better for the mirror, UG Tarmagoyf, WW and UG Shifter MU since you can get rid of opposing Archers (I'm playing these MD instead of Riftsweepers), bounce fats or get rid of blockers/morphs with FIery Justice but somewhat worse against control since you lose the draw potential of Edge of Autumn and maybe Horizon Canopy.
AFAIK the decks only bad MUs are Wild Pair Slivers (but not always, with a mediocre draw on their part you can win easily), Cheon's Bu control and WW.
I've been testing B/U Korlash against the G/W version of Tarmogoyf and it's been about 50/50 pre-board. Post board, you side in dervish, I side in dunerider outlaw. Shadowmage infiltrator is a big problem for G/W because it allows B/U to get the card advantage it needs to keep removing threats. I've had no problem removing Tarmogoyf (it's a great card but it's still a vanilla beater that dies to any black removal) and the regeneration of the augur and korlash does pose problems for you. Really, this matchup comes down to whether I can find one of my 7 maindeck answers to Mystic Enforcer in time.
The deck is already tight as it is, I don't think there's place in the deck for Blinks...
Also, since when are we afraid of Tendrils?
It'll buy them a turn at best because our critters aren't pantsy 1/1s like Monored's, a single swing from a Goyf or Enforcer will cover the gain from the Tendril.
However if you want some way to avoid Tendrils of Corruption, Stonecloaker is a far better option than Blink, simply because there's a box that says "3/2" in the lower right corner
Really? what does that box mean? Do I win the game? Cause you know I am completely new to this game... lol jk jiaozy fun times.
Seriously though I really don't know much about block I was just figuring that the gain life could be big. But I just remembered that korlash doesn't have rise/fall....
So I was right about the thrill it really good? or is it expected now and the stonecloaker and calciderm would be better?
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
Round 1: Sam (White Weenie)
I thought it'd be a tough matchup, as he had unwittingly made both RDW and White Weenie (and decently) for block without even any thought of competition or whatever. Anyways, to my great relief, he decided to jank it up in the end and ran Daybreak Coronet as the centerpiece. Temporal Isolation was a backbreaker for him.
Round 2: Chris (UBw Teferi Control)
Ouch. He's always been a good control player, so this was going to be a pain I thought.
Game 1: He sweeped me hard.... I kept drawing land and he kept drawing answers to what little creatures I had.
Game 2: Boom'd his Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth when he had 2 Islands and a Prismatic Lens.
Game 3: Reversal of game 1. I kept drawing Goyf's.
Round 3: Haven (RG Big Mana)
Meh.
Basically, Temporal Isolation was the centerpiece and backbreaker of his deck. Spectral Force can't do much in this case.
Round 4: Other Chris (Some version of RG Aggro)
Sweep. He didn't even have rares in the deck. Oh well.
Top 4: Other.... other Chris (UG Morph)
I don't recall this round too well. I think Dead/Gone crushed him, and Thornweald Archer rushed past his walls.
Finals: Haven - Rematch
Um.... all I remember, is that I took a risk by Busting after he Utopia Vow'd my Mystic Enforcer and a Goyf at 5/6. He scooped soon afterwards.
My GW build is a bit like Jioazy's except for a few minor changes in the SB. I hadn't thought of using Thornweald Archers, but after jus ta few matches of testing they have proven much more useful in game 1 than Riftsweeper.
I've been having very consisent results. Most of my losses are due not to this decks lack of ability, but my own play mistakes... (it happens to us all ) However, Im starting to learn to correct it a bit with this deck and am loving the card interactions. The synergy in this deck is basically unmatched in Block right now.
However, heading into PTQs I am a bit worried about the hate that may be prevelant. The mirror doesnt really frighten me, I just dont feel like dealing with a meta full of SBs packed full of 'Goyf Hate.
EDIT: Do most people here prefer the splash or are most sticking to solid :symgw:? I dont think the splash is worth it for Kavu Predator and Fiery Justice. Both are good cards but I dont think they are so good they are worth screwing with the mana base. Maybe Im missing something... DOUBLE EDIT: I forgot about Dead//Gone, but again my point remains the same. I feel the cnsistency of the build has such high consistency I dont know if I even wanna mess with it.
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
How was Harmonize for you? It just seems that Call would be better in an aggro deck, especially against control.
What does everyone think of Krosan Grip in the board? I find myself wanting an uncounterable answer to Take Possession and Krosan Grip could also deal with Wild Pair. The other option would be Ancient Grudge which would be reuseable but would be counterable.
Since I didn't always want a creature (and Call was somewhat unsynergetic with Goyf), Harmonize worked great. I always liked casting it (since I have some odd affinity for lands) and it worked out in the end. I didn't really see it too often and not want to see it.
Enchantments are much more threatening than Artifacts in block, so Ancient Grudge is kinda moot.
;2101259']Ancient Grudge would be gold against any deck running 4 Lens and 4 Relic MD
Ancient Grudge is a good card, no doubt, but enchantments play a big part of this block constructed. The versitility offered by Disenchant, Krosan Grip, or Seal of Primordium make them better choices than Grudge.
Only one of those artifacts present an actual threat, and three of those cards are mana fixers. While it can be good to deny an opponent of needed mana, observe what enchantments are played heavily.
Each of these cards present different threats that you'd want to deal with. Wild Pair can allow Sliver decks to combo off. Griffin Guide turns any beater into a threat and it also replaces that creature if it dies. Take Possestion steals your threats, and Temporal Isolation negates your threats.
All in all, it seems as though enchantment destruction is just far more relevant than simple artifact destruction.
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The bounce hurts alot, but this is what i'm thinking
the only remvoe they have is blue, scragnoth or quagnoth might help or may be plain slow
What can we sideboard/maindeck against pickles and bouncing decks
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=532795
Unfortunately, I didn't draw Blink in either game I played against GW Goyf, and lost both of my best matchups. That stung.
To beat the UW Blink decks or UG Goyf decks, just play out as many creatures as you possibly can, and overwhelm your opponent. Remember, the only "removal" that White has is Sunlance, Temporal Isolation, and Bound in Silence, Blue has bounce, but no hard removal aside from Psionic Blast, and Green has no targeted removal (no one plays Utopia Vow, nor should they). Therefore, creature advantage is huge in this type of matchup, so start running the max number of creatures out onto the field, use all possible mana every turn, and force the Blue mage to bounce everything. It also helps that their bounce creatures (Riftwing Cloudskate and Venser, Shaper Savant) are both smaller than most of your creatures, so they can't trade effectively.
However, reusable bounce effects + Aven Riftwatcher is NOT a good matchup for GW.
To point out the obvious... you cant target Calciderm.
To point out the *other* obvious part: Stonecloaker (and all the other bounce-rescue guys) don't involve targeting anything. Bouncing your 'Derm is a perfectly legit move.
And personally I'm more afraid of the GWr versions than the straight GW versions; at least whenever I'm playing the control deck.
Grow-A-TogKeeperCause the list I am playing now is the wining version from montreal. The Thrill of the hunts which I am guessing are used as combat tricks to keep your dudes alive. I really don't like them if we are so afraid of enchants and tendrils then why not drop a few gemstone mines into the deck and replace the thrills with momentary blinks?
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
I've been testing B/U Korlash against the G/W version of Tarmogoyf and it's been about 50/50 pre-board. Post board, you side in dervish, I side in dunerider outlaw. Shadowmage infiltrator is a big problem for G/W because it allows B/U to get the card advantage it needs to keep removing threats. I've had no problem removing Tarmogoyf (it's a great card but it's still a vanilla beater that dies to any black removal) and the regeneration of the augur and korlash does pose problems for you. Really, this matchup comes down to whether I can find one of my 7 maindeck answers to Mystic Enforcer in time.
Really? what does that box mean? Do I win the game? Cause you know I am completely new to this game... lol jk jiaozy fun times.
Seriously though I really don't know much about block I was just figuring that the gain life could be big. But I just remembered that korlash doesn't have rise/fall....
So I was right about the thrill it really good? or is it expected now and the stonecloaker and calciderm would be better?
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
What matchup would you bring Stonecloaker in for? The Mirror? Seems out of place to me.
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RedFalcon912 (7:31:26 PM): stfu Navi
3 Plains
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Llanowar Reborn
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mystic Enforcer
4 Kavu Predator
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Edge of Autumn
4 Fiery Justic
4 Dead/Gone
3 Griffin Guide
4 Temporal Isolation
4 Sunlance
4 Stonecloaker
3 Cloudchaser Kestrel
2 Boom//Bust
2 Thornweald Archer
Round 1: Sam (White Weenie)
I thought it'd be a tough matchup, as he had unwittingly made both RDW and White Weenie (and decently) for block without even any thought of competition or whatever. Anyways, to my great relief, he decided to jank it up in the end and ran Daybreak Coronet as the centerpiece. Temporal Isolation was a backbreaker for him.
Round 2: Chris (UBw Teferi Control)
Ouch. He's always been a good control player, so this was going to be a pain I thought.
Game 1: He sweeped me hard.... I kept drawing land and he kept drawing answers to what little creatures I had.
Game 2: Boom'd his Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth when he had 2 Islands and a Prismatic Lens.
Game 3: Reversal of game 1. I kept drawing Goyf's.
Round 3: Haven (RG Big Mana)
Meh.
Basically, Temporal Isolation was the centerpiece and backbreaker of his deck. Spectral Force can't do much in this case.
Round 4: Other Chris (Some version of RG Aggro)
Sweep. He didn't even have rares in the deck. Oh well.
Top 4: Other.... other Chris (UG Morph)
I don't recall this round too well. I think Dead/Gone crushed him, and Thornweald Archer rushed past his walls.
Finals: Haven - Rematch
Um.... all I remember, is that I took a risk by Busting after he Utopia Vow'd my Mystic Enforcer and a Goyf at 5/6. He scooped soon afterwards.
Star of the show:
Temporal Isolation
Flop:
Sunlance
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Llanowar Reborn
2 Terramorphic Expanse
5 Plains
5 Forest
Creatures: 19
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Serra Avenger
4 Thornweald Archers
4 Mystic Enforcer
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Edge of Autumn
3 Chromatic Star
3 Call of the Herd
3 Temporal Isolation
3 Griffin Guide
2 Thrill of the Hunt
3 Stonecloaker
3 Serrated Arrows
3 Sunlance
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Riftsweeper
I've been having very consisent results. Most of my losses are due not to this decks lack of ability, but my own play mistakes... (it happens to us all
However, heading into PTQs I am a bit worried about the hate that may be prevelant. The mirror doesnt really frighten me, I just dont feel like dealing with a meta full of SBs packed full of 'Goyf Hate.
EDIT: Do most people here prefer the
DOUBLE EDIT: I forgot about Dead//Gone, but again my point remains the same. I feel the cnsistency of the
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How was Harmonize for you? It just seems that Call would be better in an aggro deck, especially against control.
What does everyone think of Krosan Grip in the board? I find myself wanting an uncounterable answer to Take Possession and Krosan Grip could also deal with Wild Pair. The other option would be Ancient Grudge which would be reuseable but would be counterable.
Enchantments are much more threatening than Artifacts in block, so Ancient Grudge is kinda moot.
Ancient Grudge is a good card, no doubt, but enchantments play a big part of this block constructed. The versitility offered by Disenchant, Krosan Grip, or Seal of Primordium make them better choices than Grudge.
For example:
Artifacts played heavily in block:
Prismatic Lens
Coalition Relic
Chromatic Star
Serrated Arrows
Triskelivus (Sometimes)
Only one of those artifacts present an actual threat, and three of those cards are mana fixers. While it can be good to deny an opponent of needed mana, observe what enchantments are played heavily.
Wild Pair
Griffin Guide
Temporal Isolation
Take Possestion
Each of these cards present different threats that you'd want to deal with. Wild Pair can allow Sliver decks to combo off. Griffin Guide turns any beater into a threat and it also replaces that creature if it dies. Take Possestion steals your threats, and Temporal Isolation negates your threats.
All in all, it seems as though enchantment destruction is just far more relevant than simple artifact destruction.