Hi all! I was perusing this forum and was surprised that this deck hasn't been started (if I missed it, please close this thread with my apologies!).
In older PEs this deck competed very well. I can only imagine that with the addition of Damnation and Urborg in PC it will only get stronger. Plus there is the addition of the red Akroma as a finisher, but her strength as an uncounterable beater is somewhat diminished in a format definitely lacking on counters.
Anyway, here is the general decklist posted in the primer thread by Clownfish adjusted to 60 cards with 24 lands (from 61 and 25):
I think we can do better though, especially with the SB... seeing as I just kinda threw it together. I realize it's hard to exactly figure it out with the metagame still highly unknown, but the theory should be there. Some *brief* card explanations:
Staples: Damnation: Cornerstone. Auto 4-of.
Strangling Soot: Same.
Sudden Death: Beats Teferi. Ditto.
Tendrils of Corruption: This just got 100 times better with the printing of Urborg. Should be a 4-of MD.
Disintegrate: Great for burning out the last few life. The deck already has tons of creature kill, so this should be a 2-3.
Phyrexian Totem: Great finisher, no as great as accel but still works. Sticks around after a sweeper. Once your opponent is out of cards and has no board, it just starts beating.
Prismatic Lens: Accel and mana fixing in a pinch. It's a control deck, so you should be running 4.
Finishers: Stronghold Overseer: This guy hasn't received much love. Sure, he can't block, but he'll go in unhindered 99.9% of the time.
Sedge Sliver: Great for clogging up the ground while Overseer goes to town. Not so synergistic with Damnation though.
Bogardan Hellkite: This is most useful if you run Dread Return/Lightning Axe. But you're knocking on Reanimator territory there.
Avatar of Woe: Cool, and very good at establishing a final creature lock on aggro. Testing should prove how good this is in practice though.
Akroma, Angel of Fury: As stated before, not 100% sold on her yet. Might be better than Hellkite, but somewhat doubtful.
Kaervek the Merciless: This guy will never see play in Standard, but he might work in a slow format like Block.
Other Possible Inclusions: Sulfurous Blast: These are Damns #5-8 from the board. This block seems very light on playable >3 toughness creatures.
Sudden Shock: Probably out of the SB... not as useful as Sudden Death or as it is in Extended, but it's still good.
Lightning Axe: Good for setting up reanimation, and takes out Timbermare nicely. Not much doesn't die to this.
Void: Now we're getting more metagame-y. I think how this format pans out will ultimately decide whether or not this is a go.
Smallpox: Like the Axe, good for setting up reanimation targets. Ultimately might not be worth it at the loss of a land.
Extirpate: Everyone is has an opinion on this card... but there is very little hard testing. Personally I don't think this will be very effective in block, but I really hope it is!
Sulfur Elemental: This guy is honestly one of my favourite cards in PC. It could be cool metagame tech, but its place is probably only in RDW.
Lands: Urborg: Strictly better than Swamp as a 1-of. That's how it should be.
Molten Slagheap: I find no more than 2 is the right number.
Terramorphic Expanse: With no good multilands, this is the best we can do. Usually 4 are run, but I can think of good reasons to cut it to 3.
Desert: We already have a metric ton of removal, so I don't think this is necessary.
You're list seems pretty Solid, although 4 Tendrils seems a bit to much imo. Ux control decks are very populair right now, and they aren't very great against such decks. I would play 4 Disintegrate, and 2 Tendrils, or maybe 3 - 3. Als I like Bogardan Hellkite more then the Avatar, but that's just personal.
I do tend to agree Re: Hellkite vs Avatar. You have to do a lot of killin before Avatar becomes droppable without tapping yourself completely out. Hellkite, while lacking in the reusable destruction department, doesn't tap you out during your turn and can target the opponent's head with nothing else on the board. It also wipes the weenies more efficiently.
As for Tendrils and Disintegrate, a 3-3 split might be effective. I would certainly put Tendrils #4 in the SB though.
This deck needs a little more card advantage than just some Stangling Soots (which are worthless against control).
I'm doing homework right now and don't have the time to go browsing and find something to help you out, but there's gotta be something. :/
Yeah, nice point. There isn't anything as obvious as Phyrexian Arena in BR yet... but don't forget about Damnation. Against aggro there's a ton of CA available to the deck, like the above mentioned removal and Desert, which is actually starting to sound good as backup for things like Soltari Priest. Torchling can also be regarded as potential CA against aggro. But against control, there's Stupor, a well-timed Extirpate to grab something in their hand, or Imp's Mischeif to redirect targeted draw to yourself.
That's all I can see though. Oh wait... Candles of Leng! Or even better... Browbeat!
What does everyone think about Plague Sliver instead of Sedge Sliver? It seems to be a very solid ground-staller/early beater, holds the ground nice against weenies, trades with Calciderm, swings for 5... sure he hits you for 1 each turn, but I found that negligible with 4 Tendrils.
Also what about Gauntlet of Power option? I feel unsure about this one. It costs 5 and is utterly useless in the mirror match. On the other hand, it solves all the mana problems once it's out. Not to mention turning the Overseer into a giant unblockable Nantuko Shade AND enabling a huge Disintegrate.
Shrouded Lore actually seems pretty strong here, if only for lack of a better option.
Null Profusion is probably a bad choice, because it's more geared towards ramping up a lot of spells in one turn. It's sure effective at drawing cards, but if you can only ever hold two, that lessens the glory a bit.
As for Imp's Mischief, yes, it can work, but that really depends upon the viability of Ancestral Visions. Careful Consideration wouldn't be too terrible to hack, but those are about it. And remember, the Mischief is only as good as the spells your opponent throws at you.
Damnation is obviously going to be a huge boon here, as not only does it neuter aggro even more but it gives you card advantage that seems to be missing.
It is this specific lack of decent card advantage that I believe the proper move may be to change to Green instead of Red. Green is getting a lot of card advantage in Planar Chaos, most notably Harmonize and Magus of the Library. Red has nothing better than Browbeat.
And yes, this means I believe The Rock should be resurrected for Block season.
I agree, GB control seems very good, maybe we should make a list of it at this forum ;).
Working on it. Shhhh.
I don't really see why Extirpate is the nuts against Mystical Teachings. You get to do it once they've already used it? Not inspiring. I'd be more impressed if it was better at taking out Teferi.
I don't really see why Extirpate is the nuts against Mystical Teachings. You get to do it once they've already used it? Not inspiring. I'd be more impressed if it was better at taking out Teferi.
I never said it was the nuts, it probably isn't, I just said that it seems like a very good out for it. The Ux decks really do thrive on the fact that they have a near infinite card advantage engine with six to eight mystical teachings and any number of targets for them. Being able to stop this from happening (especially if they teachinged to teachings) can be pretty back breaking.
I never said it was the nuts, it probably isn't, I just said that it seems like a very good out for it. The Ux decks really do thrive on the fact that they have a near infinite card advantage engine with six to eight mystical teachings and any number of targets for them. Being able to stop this from happening (especially if they teachinged to teachings) can be pretty back breaking.
It's silver-bullet, play-this-card-to-beat-another paradigms that ruin good deck ideas. If Mystical Teachings is as instrumental as you claim (which I'll discover or disprove eventually through testing), then it's an entirely different scenario.
it's not fast enough. you have to wait till your third turn before you can even cast anything worth casting /yeah your lens, retarded./ you have the overseer... but what else has shadow in your deck?
youre deck is built around damnation... ever think of nether traitor? and it has shadow /bonus/
how about using safe haven? i like sacing a mirri and whatever else to it. casting damnation, next turn, getting those creatures back when he has NO BLOCKERS
and the arguement for the hellkite is bogus. "yeah i'd rather pay 6RR instead of 6BB cuz i can do 5 damage?" are you for real? it's 8 mana!!!
youre playing damnation and weak creature removal in a ssssslllooooowww deck. that avatar is going to cost BB by the time you get damnation in your hand and can cast it.
the deck needs a lot of work before it can beat anything worth mentioning. the lens... slow. lotus blossom = speed. you need demonic collusion. trade the nether traitor for the slivers. smallpox would be good if yorue going to keep your huge casting cost creatures cuz it fills your graveyard quicker...
and i dont care what anyone says... blacks got a counterspell.
@Feuer: You mentioned Mirari in The Rock thread... and while it really is nuts when you copy something like Harmonize, I believe it's key for any block control deck to maintain long-term card advantage. I think 2 is the bare minimum for non-card drawing decks, and I'll probably start testing with 3 shortly. Some cards available that just beg to be Miraried: Tendrils of Corruption, Sudden Death, Disintegrate, Stupor and Void.
I'm not a huge fan of Sedge Sliver, so that will probably go for something better. The sideboard is still really bad, so I won't even bother posting it.
personally i am really not sure that there is a need for red in the deck at all, i'd say have a single mountain and the lens plus expense to fuel the FB of ssot but maybe mono black would be better
personally i am really not sure that there is a need for red in the deck at all, i'd say have a single mountain and the lens plus expense to fuel the FB of ssot but maybe mono black would be better
If a deck like White Weenie (or Slivers) becomes popular, Void could become a crucial control card.
This is my idea for TPF. Since I don't know the format, I need suggestions (mostly regarding the SB, which is missing 4 cards!!) and also what cards to take out and/or add in, since I'm not really sure of what is "good" and what is lame in TPF. Here's the decklist:
the idea is a control deck with lots of creature kill (soot/pox/s.death/damnation), land destruction (riders/boom-bust/pox) and a small discard theme (stupor/pox + charm from the board). The objective is to overwhelm the opponent with a boatload of disruption coming from all sides (unless they're playing a lot of enchantments/artifacts, of course) and drop a gargadon or two while you're at it. Once they have no board, no hand and no lands, beating face with a 9/7 guy shouldn't be so hard ;). Boom // Bust isn't as good without flagstones, but it does have sinergy with terramorphic expanse, so it's at least decent. Any comments and suggestions, as always are very welcome. thanks in advance
In older PEs this deck competed very well. I can only imagine that with the addition of Damnation and Urborg in PC it will only get stronger. Plus there is the addition of the red Akroma as a finisher, but her strength as an uncounterable beater is somewhat diminished in a format definitely lacking on counters.
Anyway, here is the general decklist posted in the primer thread by Clownfish adjusted to 60 cards with 24 lands (from 61 and 25):
4 Disintegrate
4 Sudden Death
4 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Dread Return
3 Phyrexian Totem
4 Sedge Sliver
3 Stronghold Overseer
2 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Avatar of Woe
2 Molten Slagheap
4 Mountain
14 Swamp
With possible Planar Chaos additions, I would build it something like this:
2 Disintegrate
4 Sudden Death
4 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Dread Return
4 Damnation
4 Prismatic Lens
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Stronghold Overseer
2 Avatar of Woe
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Molten Slagheap
4 Mountain
13 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Sudden Shock
4 Sulfurous Blast
3 Void
4 Extirpate
I think we can do better though, especially with the SB... seeing as I just kinda threw it together. I realize it's hard to exactly figure it out with the metagame still highly unknown, but the theory should be there. Some *brief* card explanations:
Staples:
Damnation: Cornerstone. Auto 4-of.
Strangling Soot: Same.
Sudden Death: Beats Teferi. Ditto.
Tendrils of Corruption: This just got 100 times better with the printing of Urborg. Should be a 4-of MD.
Disintegrate: Great for burning out the last few life. The deck already has tons of creature kill, so this should be a 2-3.
Phyrexian Totem: Great finisher, no as great as accel but still works. Sticks around after a sweeper. Once your opponent is out of cards and has no board, it just starts beating.
Prismatic Lens: Accel and mana fixing in a pinch. It's a control deck, so you should be running 4.
Finishers:
Stronghold Overseer: This guy hasn't received much love. Sure, he can't block, but he'll go in unhindered 99.9% of the time.
Sedge Sliver: Great for clogging up the ground while Overseer goes to town. Not so synergistic with Damnation though.
Bogardan Hellkite: This is most useful if you run Dread Return/Lightning Axe. But you're knocking on Reanimator territory there.
Avatar of Woe: Cool, and very good at establishing a final creature lock on aggro. Testing should prove how good this is in practice though.
Akroma, Angel of Fury: As stated before, not 100% sold on her yet. Might be better than Hellkite, but somewhat doubtful.
Kaervek the Merciless: This guy will never see play in Standard, but he might work in a slow format like Block.
Other Possible Inclusions:
Sulfurous Blast: These are Damns #5-8 from the board. This block seems very light on playable >3 toughness creatures.
Sudden Shock: Probably out of the SB... not as useful as Sudden Death or as it is in Extended, but it's still good.
Lightning Axe: Good for setting up reanimation, and takes out Timbermare nicely. Not much doesn't die to this.
Void: Now we're getting more metagame-y. I think how this format pans out will ultimately decide whether or not this is a go.
Smallpox: Like the Axe, good for setting up reanimation targets. Ultimately might not be worth it at the loss of a land.
Extirpate: Everyone is has an opinion on this card... but there is very little hard testing. Personally I don't think this will be very effective in block, but I really hope it is!
Sulfur Elemental: This guy is honestly one of my favourite cards in PC. It could be cool metagame tech, but its place is probably only in RDW.
Lands:
Urborg: Strictly better than Swamp as a 1-of. That's how it should be.
Molten Slagheap: I find no more than 2 is the right number.
Terramorphic Expanse: With no good multilands, this is the best we can do. Usually 4 are run, but I can think of good reasons to cut it to 3.
Desert: We already have a metric ton of removal, so I don't think this is necessary.
I do tend to agree Re: Hellkite vs Avatar. You have to do a lot of killin before Avatar becomes droppable without tapping yourself completely out. Hellkite, while lacking in the reusable destruction department, doesn't tap you out during your turn and can target the opponent's head with nothing else on the board. It also wipes the weenies more efficiently.
As for Tendrils and Disintegrate, a 3-3 split might be effective. I would certainly put Tendrils #4 in the SB though.
Hands down Hellkite over Avatar though.
I'm doing homework right now and don't have the time to go browsing and find something to help you out, but there's gotta be something. :/
Yeah, nice point. There isn't anything as obvious as Phyrexian Arena in BR yet... but don't forget about Damnation. Against aggro there's a ton of CA available to the deck, like the above mentioned removal and Desert, which is actually starting to sound good as backup for things like Soltari Priest. Torchling can also be regarded as potential CA against aggro. But against control, there's Stupor, a well-timed Extirpate to grab something in their hand, or Imp's Mischeif to redirect targeted draw to yourself.
That's all I can see though. Oh wait... Candles of Leng! Or even better... Browbeat!
Ninja Edit: What about Null Profusion? Is it a viable block deck you think? It'd be a fun BR deck.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
If you did this, tell me and I'll credit you!
Also what about Gauntlet of Power option? I feel unsure about this one. It costs 5 and is utterly useless in the mirror match. On the other hand, it solves all the mana problems once it's out. Not to mention turning the Overseer into a giant unblockable Nantuko Shade AND enabling a huge Disintegrate.
Many thanks to Epic Graphics for the great sig!
Shrouded Lore <-- for reference.
Shrouded Lore actually seems pretty strong here, if only for lack of a better option.
Null Profusion is probably a bad choice, because it's more geared towards ramping up a lot of spells in one turn. It's sure effective at drawing cards, but if you can only ever hold two, that lessens the glory a bit.
As for Imp's Mischief, yes, it can work, but that really depends upon the viability of Ancestral Visions. Careful Consideration wouldn't be too terrible to hack, but those are about it. And remember, the Mischief is only as good as the spells your opponent throws at you.
Damnation is obviously going to be a huge boon here, as not only does it neuter aggro even more but it gives you card advantage that seems to be missing.
It is this specific lack of decent card advantage that I believe the proper move may be to change to Green instead of Red. Green is getting a lot of card advantage in Planar Chaos, most notably Harmonize and Magus of the Library. Red has nothing better than Browbeat.
And yes, this means I believe The Rock should be resurrected for Block season.
Void is the absolute nuts against WW and is pretty good against UG shifter, almost always better than Sulfurous Blast.
I don't think you need 7 pieces of artifact mana. I'd cut one or two.
Exripate seems like a must against arguably the best card in the block: Mystical Teachings.
Do you think Enslave might find a place in this deck?
Have you given any thought to a possible Mindstab/Stupor suite in the board for control?
Working on it. Shhhh.
I don't really see why Extirpate is the nuts against Mystical Teachings. You get to do it once they've already used it? Not inspiring. I'd be more impressed if it was better at taking out Teferi.
I never said it was the nuts, it probably isn't, I just said that it seems like a very good out for it. The Ux decks really do thrive on the fact that they have a near infinite card advantage engine with six to eight mystical teachings and any number of targets for them. Being able to stop this from happening (especially if they teachinged to teachings) can be pretty back breaking.
It's silver-bullet, play-this-card-to-beat-another paradigms that ruin good deck ideas. If Mystical Teachings is as instrumental as you claim (which I'll discover or disprove eventually through testing), then it's an entirely different scenario.
youre deck is built around damnation... ever think of nether traitor? and it has shadow /bonus/
how about using safe haven? i like sacing a mirri and whatever else to it. casting damnation, next turn, getting those creatures back when he has NO BLOCKERS
and the arguement for the hellkite is bogus. "yeah i'd rather pay 6RR instead of 6BB cuz i can do 5 damage?" are you for real? it's 8 mana!!!
youre playing damnation and weak creature removal in a ssssslllooooowww deck. that avatar is going to cost BB by the time you get damnation in your hand and can cast it.
the deck needs a lot of work before it can beat anything worth mentioning. the lens... slow. lotus blossom = speed. you need demonic collusion. trade the nether traitor for the slivers. smallpox would be good if yorue going to keep your huge casting cost creatures cuz it fills your graveyard quicker...
and i dont care what anyone says... blacks got a counterspell.
@Feuer: You mentioned Mirari in The Rock thread... and while it really is nuts when you copy something like Harmonize, I believe it's key for any block control deck to maintain long-term card advantage. I think 2 is the bare minimum for non-card drawing decks, and I'll probably start testing with 3 shortly. Some cards available that just beg to be Miraried: Tendrils of Corruption, Sudden Death, Disintegrate, Stupor and Void.
I'm not a huge fan of Sedge Sliver, so that will probably go for something better. The sideboard is still really bad, so I won't even bother posting it.
And congrats on the mod job
2 Disintegrate
4 Sudden Death
3 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Dread Return
4 Damnation
3 Prismatic Lens
3 Phyrexian Totem
4 Sedge Sliver
3 Stronghold Overseer
2 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Molten Slagheap
4 Mountain
13 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
If a deck like White Weenie (or Slivers) becomes popular, Void could become a crucial control card.
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Molten Slagheap
6 Mountain
8 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Sengir Nosferatu
4 Phyrexian Totem
4 Prismatic Lens
3 Foriysian Totem
4 Damnation
4 Boom//Bust
3 Sudden Death
3 Dead//Gone
2 Sulfurous Blast
2 Strangling Soot
2 Extirpate
2 Void
4 terramorphic expanse
4 molten slagheap
1 urza's factory
1 kher keep
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
7 swamp
6 mountain
Creatures (10)
4 greater gargadon
4 avalanche riders
2 akroma, angel of fury
4 damnation
4 prismatic lens
4 smallpox
4 boom // bust
3 strangling soot
3 sudden death
4 stupor
4 fury charm
4 funeral charm
3 void
4 ??????
the idea is a control deck with lots of creature kill (soot/pox/s.death/damnation), land destruction (riders/boom-bust/pox) and a small discard theme (stupor/pox + charm from the board). The objective is to overwhelm the opponent with a boatload of disruption coming from all sides (unless they're playing a lot of enchantments/artifacts, of course) and drop a gargadon or two while you're at it. Once they have no board, no hand and no lands, beating face with a 9/7 guy shouldn't be so hard ;). Boom // Bust isn't as good without flagstones, but it does have sinergy with terramorphic expanse, so it's at least decent. Any comments and suggestions, as always are very welcome. thanks in advance
Don't you love when people make such claims and are wrong?