I was going to suggest this deck be removed since I hadn't seen it in two weeks, but I realized when I started doing this week's results that this deck is back, largely because it's so effective against infect.
Darth_Revan (6th Place)
SOM Block Constructed Premier #1783886 on 11/20/2010
He's piloted this deck to 2 4-0 daily finishes as well, but this was the first place I started seeing other players playing the deck as well.
The big difference from the deck in the OP is the addition of Koth
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Kuldotha Phoenix is not easily beatable with Metal Craft. I'm trying to make a more artifact heavy version to create metal craft. I really like Painsmith and maybe they can work together well.
I've been trying the following list for the past couple of days (mostly in the practice room).
It seems to do surprisingly well against big red. Infect and most random decks are quite easy. Architect builds are beatable, but I've had trouble against U/W control, because they force me to throw burn on planeswalkers.
I haven't really figured out a sideboard. Any help would be appreciated - especially on what works against U/W.
I think one of the reasons to play the deck is removal + Koth. I'd start with him. Also look into Kuldotha Phoenix. Without craft its good, with it's really nuts.
I'm not sure how the latter two fit the core theme of the deck, which seems to be lots of 2-for-1 + removal. Spikeshot might, but seems fragile.
I can see Spikeshot being very good. He destroys Infect all on his own if they dont have removal. He can also help deal with Elspeth Tokens and beat down opposing Koths.
Masticore has been good as a 6 drop. He will be lost to Arrest, Grasp, and Revoke but if your playing against a deck that doesn't feature those he could be good. I removed Wurmcoil from my main for him since those cards are just as good against him.
I think there are much better choices than Galvanic Blast when your not looking to get metalcraft. Fume Spitter is amazing against Myr and until people stop playing those, Infect, Spikeshots, Riddlesmiths, ect I won't stop playing the card. It helps me curve out, gives the deck more abilities to swap role between aggro and control, and pressures Koths + Elspeths.
I like the Idea of Memoricide main but I love the high creature count.
Phoenix I want, but more with metal craft, than without. B/R seems to really want nothing to do with artifacts.
The fact that Masticore is the only artifact in the deck happens to draw all Revokes to him but playing him with regen mana up just turns into dead core and a lightning blast. Better than the nothing you get from Wurmcoil.
Don't like Grasp main but it seems necessary. Seems like I'm playing this deck with black mostly for Carnifax.
The spikeshot, ooze, manticore package is infinity removal. Once a spikeshot or manticore ends up in the graveyard from blocking or whatever reason, your ooze can blast for 4 to any target as long as you have mana, and can regen =p
Plus, sometimes you get a bonus from your opponent and he will play a steel hellkite and you will scrapmelt it. then your ooze turns into a rachet bomb.
I am not sold on the panic spellbombs or mimic vats yet yet, but they are nice sometimes.
The spikeshot, ooze, manticore package is infinity removal. Once a spikeshot or manticore ends up in the graveyard from blocking or whatever reason, your ooze can blast for 4 to any target as long as you have mana, and can regen =p
Plus, sometimes you get a bonus from your opponent and he will play a steel hellkite and you will scrapmelt it. then your ooze turns into a rachet bomb.
I am not sold on the panic spellbombs or mimic vats yet yet, but they are nice sometimes.
Wow I didn't realize that ooze copies creatures in the opponent's graveyard. You can tell I don't play mtgo.
I think Panic Spellbomb is garbage and Memoricide is the reason to play black imo. Grasp and Skinrender are nice, but I prefer this as a Koth deck that can Memoricide you.
I basically found myself siding in Memoricide all the time. The format isn't fast enough to make the 4cc sorc without effect on the board too slow. Planeswalkers are the real deal and Memoricide and Liquimetal Coating are the best ways to hit them.
I'm not saying don't play Skinrender or Grasp, I'm just saying watch your mana base. I don't think there's a single black card better than Koth. The mana in the deck is butt.
I was going to suggest this deck be removed since I hadn't seen it in two weeks, but I realized when I started doing this week's results that this deck is back, largely because it's so effective against infect.
Darth_Revan (6th Place)
SOM Block Constructed Premier #1783886 on 11/20/2010
He's piloted this deck to 2 4-0 daily finishes as well, but this was the first place I started seeing other players playing the deck as well.
The big difference from the deck in the OP is the addition of Koth
After a lot more matches against Infect featuring Phyrexian Crusader, and U/W Walkers, I really think this is the best maindeck configuration. I know I just went on about Fume Spitter but Contagion Engine is great in general, and combos with Koth and Carnifax. Grasp sucks ass but it kills Architect and Masticore so it needs to be in there.
Phoenix continues to be good without metalcraft, Arc Trail is still constantly a two for one.
My sideboard is the same except for the Steel Hellkites, where I run Necrogen Scudder. I feel he is better against Grand U, Infect, and Koth control.
I think we should settle on a close maindeck and I strongly endorse this one after hours of my own testing. Even as much as I hated replica he has shown himself as a cog with mainstay power, much like Seagate Oracles of U/B.
What are people having problems with while playing this? For me U/W Venser and 4 Color Koth Control are tough, with the later being impossible for me. Memoricide on Venser is huge against U/W but 4ck has Koth to match yours and more card advantage. Thoughts?
I like the deck, and its match up against Mono U Architect is great, but its match up against U/W is just really horrible. We need to find a way to tweak this list until it has a favorable match up against U/W - we can pretty much best any other deck.
I like the deck, and its match up against Mono U Architect is great, but its match up against U/W is just really horrible. We need to find a way to tweak this list until it has a favorable match up against U/W - we can pretty much best any other deck.
I agree, I feel the biggest suspect is Venser although Reins is great against us as well. Memoricide is great maindeck. Make sure your not running a version with Galvanic Blast since those are terrible against UW.
Ok, I've done some testing online, both in tournament practice and the queues. Here's my current list, though I'm shuffling it around a lot as I test different cards:
Ok, I've done some testing online, both in tournament practice and the queues. Here's my current list, though I'm shuffling it around a lot as I test different cards:
I'm still not quite satisfied with it, but it's the best I've come up with so far.
In total I've gone 7-3 against Mono U Architect, 3-5 against U/W, 4-4 against Big Red and 13-8 against everything else. (Those are match wins.)
Do you not run Koth because you don't own any? I can't think of a reason not to play him. There is one counterspell in this format and no burn for 4. He's the best 4 drop in the format. Can't be scrapmelted, can't be skinrendered.
I don't see the need for Palladium Myr. Carnifax Demon is nuts but he's best late. Your not rushing a Wurmcoil out. One of RB's strengths is that it runs off of colored spells. Artifact destruction is weak against it. Infact I usually play Replica as a 5 drop so I can draw off him when he gets scrapmelted.
Other than that your list looks good. I highly recommend playing Memorcide maindeck, especially to help with your UW match.
_
More UW and general tips:
1) Save Grasp for Precursor Golem. If they aggro you out its through this card or Elspeth. You can take a couple hits from Indomitable or Argent till you play Carnifax OR render it -3/-3.
2) Memorcide Venser first,Volition Reins second, Elspeth third. These are the significant cards that can turn around the game in the long run.
3) Necrogen Scudder = amazing against big red and mono u, terrible against uw.
4) Tumble Magnet should be in your sb by now. They are good against UW because they tap their magnets and sunblasts.
5) NO WURMCOIL. Your playing solid B or R creatures, Hoard Smelter and Carnifax. Don't add worse 6 drops, especially ones this hard to handle in the event of Volition Reins.
6) Skinrender and Arc Trail are bad against UW, those are the cards to side out. Shatter and Magnets come in.
7) Galvanic Blast is not for RB. It's shock with no artifacts in the deck and its not good enough to warrant removing grasp, arc-trail, koth, scrapmelter, hoard-smelter, skinrender, and carnifax to add artifacts for metalcraft. Wake up, when was the last time you ran Shock?
Here is my decklist now for reference. Seems to have all around solid matches.
Your early game is mana myr / mana myr removal. Memoricide is great in this format since it's slow and defined by large fatty cards. It's also a concession to Venser. Scrapmelter sometimes gets overloaded so I like Shatter in addition. Shatter also saves your other removal spells that you want to use later.
You want to max out on artifact removal, save grasp to take out a mountain if they activate Koth. Memoricide Phoenix first, Wurmcoil second. Scudder does a good job of keeping Koth off ultimate. Catch them once by Grasping a mountain and watch Koth do nothing again. Play your own as a finisher. Remove Myr because they have as much early game removal as you, including clasp. Phoenix is their best card against you. Consider keeping Shatter for a surprise Strata Scythe attack.
Forget Memoricide this time, especially since you don't know what they're running game two. Focus on assaulting. Normally the deck doesn't play artifacts so the artifact hate comes out. You bring artifacts in. Clasp kills mana myr or Spikeshot Elders and keeps Tumble Magnet online to negate Demons and Dragons. Masticore builds, especially including Oozes, can be tricky. Remember to hold Grasp for them or, even better, Magnet the core.
Mono-U
+2 Shatter
+3 Tumble Magnet
+3 Necrogen Scudder
-3 Mana Myr
-3 Replica
-2 Carnifex
This deck is a cakewalk imo. NO PLANESWALKERS! What are they thinking? They have loads of little dudes to play into your early game removal plan. If the only hurdle is a turn 6 Wurmcoil. At this point you can:
A) take the card advantage loss and deal with it
B) Match it with a Hoard-Smelter
C) Ultimate Koth because they didn't Reins it.
My personal favorite is to MEMORICIDE it. Name Volition Reins second. These are the only real cards in their deck. Take out mana myr since you curve out nicely when all your removal is online. They have no real removal outside of Disperse so play Scudder and don't think twice about recasting it in the event of the Disperse. Tumble Magnet not only solves the random Wurmcoil problem but also taps down Architect or anything threatening Koth to go ultimate.
UW
+4 Liquimetal Coating
+2 Tumble Magnet
+2 Shatter
-4 Arc Trail
-3 Mana Myr
-1 Grasp of Darkness
Liquimetal Coating helps defeat planeswalkers by turning them into targets for Scrapmelter, Dragon, and Shatter. The additional Artifact removal itself is valuable. Mana Myr die to Clasp and Arc Trail does nothing. Magnet can hold a Wurmcoil, tap an opposing Magnet, or make Sunblast Angel much worse.
So there it is guys. This is my favorite deck in the format. I've tried almost everything in it from Phoenix to Precursor to Masticore to Spikeshot Elder. Until we get more cards this is what I'm sold on. The mana myr suck but the 4 drops are the bread and butter in the deck. Turn 3 Koth on the play is probably the best play in the format too. Good luck guys, let me know how the matches are going with the changes and what other matches you'd like advice or sideboarding tips on.
I recently went 3-1 in a DE with a very close variant of Bane's list. Foolup, I must admit I don't see the upside of running Golems in your (and Twiggy's) version. Every deck in this format packs artifact hate (except possibly mono U, but even they have Halt Order and/or Twisted Image), and you're just giving them a target for otherwise dead cards in their hand. It seems the entire reason to play R/B instead of one of the Big Three is to try to take advantage of all the Big Three decks that are positioning themselves to better win their rock-paper-scissors matchups, but expose themselves to a deck like R/B by doing so by maindecking tons of Shatters, Revokes, etc.
As an aside, I'm not sure the mono U matchup is quite as good as this thread has made it out to be. If they hit an early Wurmcoil, we are in big trouble, and on they play they can almost always do so (and likely they board into 4 Wurmcoils). Also I think most astute mono U players are boarding out some of their mana guys against us (it's not a race to the nuts hand such as when they are playing against mono R or Venser), so our Arc Trails become actually pretty poor.
Golems are still good in my opinion. Architect has no real answer to them and against Big Red and U/W I'm bringing in Liquimetal so I want to run enough targets that they can't hit everything I have. Also, not all lists maindeck Shatter/Revoke.
A card that requires a more or less immediate answer is just good all around. If I ran no artifacts I might not want the golem, but my myr are a target in any case.
Edit: This is basically just what you said in the red thread about overloading their removal.
The problem as I see it is with R/B, we can't overload their removal. Mono R can run - any many do - up to 28 creatures (plus Koth which makes creatures) and their drops are all very offensive, and usually colored. R/B can't or shouldn't get close to that number, and its drops are less offensive (Scrapmelter and Skinrender are so/so at it, Replica/Myr not so much), not to mention none of the major threats are artifacts, so they can still save Shatter/Revoke for Golems.
Since we can't overload their Shatter/Revoke targets, I still think it's better to strand those dead cards in their hand. Replica doesn't get run out until we have sac mana up, and myr usually get boarded out. If we want to overload them, we need more colored threats (Phoenix? Geth? I dunno)
I win maybe 2/3 matches against Architect or slightly less. It's by no means an automatic win, but the matchup is definitely in our favor. Wurmcoil and Reins are the only really problematic cards they have. Even if they land a Wurmcoil we can usually deal with the card disadvantage from using say Scrapmelter + removal or Shatter + Skinrender to deal with it. When Memoricide hits Wurmcoil the rest is often easy.
Yes, Memoricide is the best way to deal with Wurmcoil, it just seems that it's unwise to count on solely that because postboard, the matchup is so slow that the U player will just develop mana until they can drop a Wurm, and they often have a counter for a turn 4 Memoricide. I know that when I play Architect against R/B, I just wait it out until I can put out Wurm or Sphinx + counter backup, because R/B can't put you under much early pressure. I think hitting a turn 3 Scudder is very important in that matchup.
The card DA isn't a huge deal, but it can often strip our hand of the removal we need to fight down the road, because U is a deck full of threats. I'm just wondering if there isn't some other way to fight Wurm that we haven't thought of. Tumble Magnet gets used sometimes, but it's only a temporary answer, and R/B vs. U games go very long.
Against U/W Replica comes down ASAP and Myr probably shouldn't be boarded out. Shatter isn't dead in red's hand, since they have Liquimetal.
Can you expand on this? Why would we not board out the only good Clasp target they have, especially when we don't have a big need to ramp to 4 mana on turn 3? (They dont often have something we need to Scrap or Skinrend that early)
Also why do you run out Replica ASAP? I suppose if you are running Golems and want to get them to blow their Revoke it's okay, but if they saw Golems from you before, they probably won't do so.
I see what you're getting at with Shatter/Liquimetal, which is why I always try to save a Shatter/Scrapmelter for their Coating. Shatter is still a dead card for them against us if they don't draw liquimetal.
I'd be more than happy to playtest with you - and I have every major deck built except for Venser. (Don't have all the planeswalkers, and have no desire to play U/W mirror matches, so I haven't shelled out for all the walkers just to test) My MTGO s/n is the same as mine here, so just shoot me a message on there or here anytime.
My apologies, I was still in the thought process of my/Bane's build and not yours when talking about the Myr. Your thoughts make sense there then. I'll test some with your build when MODO comes back up.
Follow up to one of your previous posts about Scudder vs. Mono U. I can see what you're saying about them coming out fast and the life loss mattering, but doesn't pretty much everyone agree that Scudder is great vs. Mono R? And doesn't Mono R come out just as fast (if not faster) than U, plus has direct damage reach? So if the life loss isn't enough to offset Scudder's place against R, why would it against U?
Yes, they can match it with a Sphinx, but then we're still trading with a tough to remove card - and R can just trump it with a Phoenix. It may be that Scudder isn't as good against R as we think, but if we don't use it against R (and therefore not against U), then why is it in sideboards at all?
My apologies, I was still in the thought process of my/Bane's build and not yours when talking about the Myr. Your thoughts make sense there then. I'll test some with your build when MODO comes back up.
Follow up to one of your previous posts about Scudder vs. Mono U. I can see what you're saying about them coming out fast and the life loss mattering, but doesn't pretty much everyone agree that Scudder is great vs. Mono R? And doesn't Mono R come out just as fast (if not faster) than U, plus has direct damage reach? So if the life loss isn't enough to offset Scudder's place against R, why would it against U?
Yes, they can match it with a Sphinx, but then we're still trading with a tough to remove card - and R can just trump it with a Phoenix. It may be that Scudder isn't as good against R as we think, but if we don't use it against R (and therefore not against U), then why is it in sideboards at all?
My list plays clasp target myrs. I run a high count of red cards to play Koth/scrap/skin/ANDmemoricide. I concede to early game removal almost as much as Paladium Myr, but at least I get a mana bump on my curve where it matters.
On that note I still feel like Memoricide is an amazing maindeck card. There are just so few cards the deck can lose to. There are no real swarm aggro decks that exist to make the board uneffecting Memoricide a terrible play. Especially when your early removal can take out that pressure to allow breathing room to cast Memoricide.
Other than that the debate really rests on Precusor Golem. I think he's trash. Big Blue and Venser are both getting into the Ancestral Recall that is running around, WHY GIVE IT TO THEM?
If you just grind out the games you will see that your card advantage buries every deck. When we get Into the Core for Masticore and Wurmcoil, then and only then will I consider removing Memoricide.
Even then.. Tezzeret is back. And he's looking for Wurmcoils and attacking with 5/5's. Maybe Memoricide is going to be better and better.
On that note, the only immediate update I see right now is Sphere of the Suns over my Myr to save my accel from creature removal. Phyrexian Rager may also be better than Replica, the real downside being that you lose the fog on Wurmcoil.
Don't get me wrong, I use Scudder against both, but I don't really like it against blue.
Against red it's much better, since they can Blast, Shatter or Scrapmelt Replica or Myr, but they have nothing to remove Scudder. Phoenix and Hoard-Smelter come to play later so a turn three Scudder gets through at least once and we need it so they won't drop a turn four Koth.
OTOH, Architect can play sphinx the next turn on the play or bounce the Scudder before it gets through. They don't get early metalcraft against us, especially if they board out some artifacts, so sphinx isn't as dangerous as it could be - though still a threat of course. Furthermore, the matches run longer so getting multiples of Scudder and Replica is more likely.
IMO Sphinx isn't dangerous at all. You can't stack damage so he's just a wall unless they want to trade. Necrogen is still good against Big Blue because they don't have a lot of flyers. You definitely can Grasp it which can leave you in charge of the air.
I wanted to point out that adding Sphere of the Suns really pushs the deck into the mana needed for Phoenix and even the metal to craft him back.
So then is the real debate boiled down to Koth vs. Golem? That's the main difference I see in mine and Bane's builds vs. Foolup's and the winners in the recent DEs. Your choice there heavily influences your choice of Myr, because Koth builds want to hit it turn 3, whereas Golem builds have nothing to ramp to on turn 4. Sure there's some question about Memoricide main, but I don't think that's as important to answer as Koth v. Golem.
If that is the central debate, then I'm willing to test and debate both sides, although atm I'm on the Koth side. It gives us a way to not autolose to turn 3 Koth in Game 1 before we can board in Scudders, it's the best threat ever against Venser (our worst matchup), and because of our early removal, should be far easier to protect than the fragile Golem.
If you do want to run Golems - then I think the plan should be what I advocated for in the Red thread - overload their artifact removal. We can't let them save Revokes or Shatters just for Golem, so we should be running our own Wurmcoils in that case at a minimum. It certainly gives us a better way to fight opposing Wurms instead of conceding the card DA. Magnets would also be a must in that case, and maybe even things like Masticore?
So then is the real debate boiled down to Koth vs. Golem? That's the main difference I see in mine and Bane's builds vs. Foolup's and the winners in the recent DEs. Your choice there heavily influences your choice of Myr, because Koth builds want to hit it turn 3, whereas Golem builds have nothing to ramp to on turn 4. Sure there's some question about Memoricide main, but I don't think that's as important to answer as Koth v. Golem.
If that is the central debate, then I'm willing to test and debate both sides, although atm I'm on the Koth side. It gives us a way to not autolose to turn 3 Koth in Game 1 before we can board in Scudders, it's the best threat ever against Venser (our worst matchup), and because of our early removal, should be far easier to protect than the fragile Golem.
If you do want to run Golems - then I think the plan should be what I advocated for in the Red thread - overload their artifact removal. We can't let them save Revokes or Shatters just for Golem, so we should be running our own Wurmcoils in that case at a minimum. It certainly gives us a better way to fight opposing Wurms instead of conceding the card DA. Magnets would also be a must in that case, and maybe even things like Masticore?
I don't see any debate here. You said yourself how good Koth is, wait till you need him to kick Tezzeret in the nuts on the draw. (He goes to 4 if they impulse)
Golem is just going to draw your opponent three cards or get matched by theirs. Don't waste your time figuring this out yourself, take the short cut that discussion on a forum can offer you.
If you want to test out anything, play 3 Memoricides. Sphere is a strict upgrade to the mana Myr for the aforementioned reason. Lowering your curve to focus on 4's over 5ccs' just makes sense.
Bane, as I mentioned I agree with you at the moment that Koth is superior. I was just noting that Golem builds have been placing in the DEs lately, and aside from my 3-1 finish a few days ago, I haven't seen other B/R Koth builds placing. That doesn't mean Koth isn't the better choice, but I don't like to discard other ideas (which are apparently working) just because I don't initially agree.
I have built the deck on MODO because it reminded me of Jund decks and how most of their cards generated some sort of 2 for 1. What I find sometimes anoying is the fact of how easily you can have lots of mana sources and nothing to do with them or to many good tings but dont have the mana sources to play. I like where the deck is going and hope it keeps improving as the block meta gets more solid when the next sets are released
SOM Block Constructed Daily #1733667 on 11/04/2010
9 Mountain
14 Swamp
4 Carnifex Demon
4 Moriok Replica
4 Oxidda Scrapmelter
4 Skinrender
3 Contagion Clasp
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Mimic Vat
2 Hoard-Smelter Dragon
1 Memoricide
4 Perilous Myr
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Shatter
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Darth_Revan (6th Place)
SOM Block Constructed Premier #1783886 on 11/20/2010
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
12 Mountain
9 Swamp
Creatures:
3 Carnifex Demon
3 Kuldotha Phoenix
4 Moriok Replica
3 Oxidda Scrapmelter
4 Skinrender
4 Arc Trail
3 Contagion Clasp
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Koth of the Hammer
3 Memoricide
4 Galvanic Blast
1 Memoricide
2 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Oxidda Scrapmelter
2 Shatter
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
He's piloted this deck to 2 4-0 daily finishes as well, but this was the first place I started seeing other players playing the deck as well.
The big difference from the deck in the OP is the addition of Koth
Yes, as long as there aren't many Stags around.
Kuldotha Phoenix is not easily beatable with Metal Craft. I'm trying to make a more artifact heavy version to create metal craft. I really like Painsmith and maybe they can work together well.
I think one of the reasons to play the deck is removal + Koth. I'd start with him. Also look into Kuldotha Phoenix. Without craft its good, with it's really nuts.
I can see Spikeshot being very good. He destroys Infect all on his own if they dont have removal. He can also help deal with Elspeth Tokens and beat down opposing Koths.
Masticore has been good as a 6 drop. He will be lost to Arrest, Grasp, and Revoke but if your playing against a deck that doesn't feature those he could be good. I removed Wurmcoil from my main for him since those cards are just as good against him.
Here's my new update:
11 M
11 S
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Carnifax Demon
2 Hoard Smelter Dragon
3 Oxidda Scrapemelter
3 Skinrender
2 Leaden Myr
3 Spikeshot Elder
4 Fume Spitter
2 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Arc-Trail
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Koth of the Hammer (4 Tumble Magnet *budget)
SB
2 Necrogen Scudder (mirror + big red)
3 Wurmcoil Engine (Everything but Infect)
2 Perilous Myr (powers masticore + anti infect/ww)
1 Skin Render
2 Shatter
1 Oxidda Scrapper
2 Memoricide (venser/elspeth/carnifax usually)
I think there are much better choices than Galvanic Blast when your not looking to get metalcraft. Fume Spitter is amazing against Myr and until people stop playing those, Infect, Spikeshots, Riddlesmiths, ect I won't stop playing the card. It helps me curve out, gives the deck more abilities to swap role between aggro and control, and pressures Koths + Elspeths.
I like the Idea of Memoricide main but I love the high creature count.
Phoenix I want, but more with metal craft, than without. B/R seems to really want nothing to do with artifacts.
The fact that Masticore is the only artifact in the deck happens to draw all Revokes to him but playing him with regen mana up just turns into dead core and a lightning blast. Better than the nothing you get from Wurmcoil.
Don't like Grasp main but it seems necessary. Seems like I'm playing this deck with black mostly for Carnifax.
Plus, sometimes you get a bonus from your opponent and he will play a steel hellkite and you will scrapmelt it. then your ooze turns into a rachet bomb.
I am not sold on the panic spellbombs or mimic vats yet yet, but they are nice sometimes.
11 Mountain
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Iron Myr
2 Leaden Myr
4 Skinrender
3 Spikeshot Elder
2 Molten-Tail Masticore
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Oxidda Scrapmelter
3 Mimic Vat
3 Koth of the Hammer
2 Panic Spellbomb
3 Liquimetal Coating
3 Shatter
4 Arc Trail
3 Memoricide
2 Hoard-Smelter Dragon
Wow I didn't realize that ooze copies creatures in the opponent's graveyard. You can tell I don't play mtgo.
I think Panic Spellbomb is garbage and Memoricide is the reason to play black imo. Grasp and Skinrender are nice, but I prefer this as a Koth deck that can Memoricide you.
I basically found myself siding in Memoricide all the time. The format isn't fast enough to make the 4cc sorc without effect on the board too slow. Planeswalkers are the real deal and Memoricide and Liquimetal Coating are the best ways to hit them.
I'm not saying don't play Skinrender or Grasp, I'm just saying watch your mana base. I don't think there's a single black card better than Koth. The mana in the deck is butt.
After a lot more matches against Infect featuring Phyrexian Crusader, and U/W Walkers, I really think this is the best maindeck configuration. I know I just went on about Fume Spitter but Contagion Engine is great in general, and combos with Koth and Carnifax. Grasp sucks ass but it kills Architect and Masticore so it needs to be in there.
Phoenix continues to be good without metalcraft, Arc Trail is still constantly a two for one.
My sideboard is the same except for the Steel Hellkites, where I run Necrogen Scudder. I feel he is better against Grand U, Infect, and Koth control.
I think we should settle on a close maindeck and I strongly endorse this one after hours of my own testing. Even as much as I hated replica he has shown himself as a cog with mainstay power, much like Seagate Oracles of U/B.
What are people having problems with while playing this? For me U/W Venser and 4 Color Koth Control are tough, with the later being impossible for me. Memoricide on Venser is huge against U/W but 4ck has Koth to match yours and more card advantage. Thoughts?
I agree, I feel the biggest suspect is Venser although Reins is great against us as well. Memoricide is great maindeck. Make sure your not running a version with Galvanic Blast since those are terrible against UW.
How Do you board against the various decks (Architect, U/W, Big Red, Mirror, Infect)
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Do you not run Koth because you don't own any? I can't think of a reason not to play him. There is one counterspell in this format and no burn for 4. He's the best 4 drop in the format. Can't be scrapmelted, can't be skinrendered.
I don't see the need for Palladium Myr. Carnifax Demon is nuts but he's best late. Your not rushing a Wurmcoil out. One of RB's strengths is that it runs off of colored spells. Artifact destruction is weak against it. Infact I usually play Replica as a 5 drop so I can draw off him when he gets scrapmelted.
Other than that your list looks good. I highly recommend playing Memorcide maindeck, especially to help with your UW match.
_
More UW and general tips:
1) Save Grasp for Precursor Golem. If they aggro you out its through this card or Elspeth. You can take a couple hits from Indomitable or Argent till you play Carnifax OR render it -3/-3.
2) Memorcide Venser first,Volition Reins second, Elspeth third. These are the significant cards that can turn around the game in the long run.
3) Necrogen Scudder = amazing against big red and mono u, terrible against uw.
4) Tumble Magnet should be in your sb by now. They are good against UW because they tap their magnets and sunblasts.
5) NO WURMCOIL. Your playing solid B or R creatures, Hoard Smelter and Carnifax. Don't add worse 6 drops, especially ones this hard to handle in the event of Volition Reins.
6) Skinrender and Arc Trail are bad against UW, those are the cards to side out. Shatter and Magnets come in.
7) Galvanic Blast is not for RB. It's shock with no artifacts in the deck and its not good enough to warrant removing grasp, arc-trail, koth, scrapmelter, hoard-smelter, skinrender, and carnifax to add artifacts for metalcraft. Wake up, when was the last time you ran Shock?
Here is my decklist now for reference. Seems to have all around solid matches.
[deck]
10 Swamp
11 Mountain
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Iron Myr
1 Leaden Myr
3 Moriok Replica
4 Oxidda Scrapmelter
4 Skinrender
2 Carnifex Demon
2 Hoard-Smelter Dragon
4 Arc Trail
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Koth of the Hammer
2 Shatter
3 Memoricide
sb
3 Necrogen Scudder
2 Shatter
2 Contagion Clasp
4 Tumble Magnet
4 Liquimetal Coating
Your early game is mana myr / mana myr removal. Memoricide is great in this format since it's slow and defined by large fatty cards. It's also a concession to Venser. Scrapmelter sometimes gets overloaded so I like Shatter in addition. Shatter also saves your other removal spells that you want to use later.
SB Guide (for me and recommended)
Big Red aka Koth Control
+2 Shatter
+2 Liquidmetal Coating
+3 Necrogen Scudder
-1 Memoricide
-3 Myr
-1 Skinrender
-2 Carnifex Demon
You want to max out on artifact removal, save grasp to take out a mountain if they activate Koth. Memoricide Phoenix first, Wurmcoil second. Scudder does a good job of keeping Koth off ultimate. Catch them once by Grasping a mountain and watch Koth do nothing again. Play your own as a finisher. Remove Myr because they have as much early game removal as you, including clasp. Phoenix is their best card against you. Consider keeping Shatter for a surprise Strata Scythe attack.
Mirror Match:
+ 3 Necrogen Scudder
+ 4 Tumble Magnet
+2 Contagion Clasp
- 2 Shatter
- 4 Arc Trail
- 3 Memoricide
Forget Memoricide this time, especially since you don't know what they're running game two. Focus on assaulting. Normally the deck doesn't play artifacts so the artifact hate comes out. You bring artifacts in. Clasp kills mana myr or Spikeshot Elders and keeps Tumble Magnet online to negate Demons and Dragons. Masticore builds, especially including Oozes, can be tricky. Remember to hold Grasp for them or, even better, Magnet the core.
Mono-U
+2 Shatter
+3 Tumble Magnet
+3 Necrogen Scudder
-3 Mana Myr
-3 Replica
-2 Carnifex
This deck is a cakewalk imo. NO PLANESWALKERS! What are they thinking? They have loads of little dudes to play into your early game removal plan. If the only hurdle is a turn 6 Wurmcoil. At this point you can:
A) take the card advantage loss and deal with it
B) Match it with a Hoard-Smelter
C) Ultimate Koth because they didn't Reins it.
My personal favorite is to MEMORICIDE it. Name Volition Reins second. These are the only real cards in their deck. Take out mana myr since you curve out nicely when all your removal is online. They have no real removal outside of Disperse so play Scudder and don't think twice about recasting it in the event of the Disperse. Tumble Magnet not only solves the random Wurmcoil problem but also taps down Architect or anything threatening Koth to go ultimate.
UW
+4 Liquimetal Coating
+2 Tumble Magnet
+2 Shatter
-4 Arc Trail
-3 Mana Myr
-1 Grasp of Darkness
Liquimetal Coating helps defeat planeswalkers by turning them into targets for Scrapmelter, Dragon, and Shatter. The additional Artifact removal itself is valuable. Mana Myr die to Clasp and Arc Trail does nothing. Magnet can hold a Wurmcoil, tap an opposing Magnet, or make Sunblast Angel much worse.
So there it is guys. This is my favorite deck in the format. I've tried almost everything in it from Phoenix to Precursor to Masticore to Spikeshot Elder. Until we get more cards this is what I'm sold on. The mana myr suck but the 4 drops are the bread and butter in the deck. Turn 3 Koth on the play is probably the best play in the format too. Good luck guys, let me know how the matches are going with the changes and what other matches you'd like advice or sideboarding tips on.
As an aside, I'm not sure the mono U matchup is quite as good as this thread has made it out to be. If they hit an early Wurmcoil, we are in big trouble, and on they play they can almost always do so (and likely they board into 4 Wurmcoils). Also I think most astute mono U players are boarding out some of their mana guys against us (it's not a race to the nuts hand such as when they are playing against mono R or Venser), so our Arc Trails become actually pretty poor.
The problem as I see it is with R/B, we can't overload their removal. Mono R can run - any many do - up to 28 creatures (plus Koth which makes creatures) and their drops are all very offensive, and usually colored. R/B can't or shouldn't get close to that number, and its drops are less offensive (Scrapmelter and Skinrender are so/so at it, Replica/Myr not so much), not to mention none of the major threats are artifacts, so they can still save Shatter/Revoke for Golems.
Since we can't overload their Shatter/Revoke targets, I still think it's better to strand those dead cards in their hand. Replica doesn't get run out until we have sac mana up, and myr usually get boarded out. If we want to overload them, we need more colored threats (Phoenix? Geth? I dunno)
Yes, Memoricide is the best way to deal with Wurmcoil, it just seems that it's unwise to count on solely that because postboard, the matchup is so slow that the U player will just develop mana until they can drop a Wurm, and they often have a counter for a turn 4 Memoricide. I know that when I play Architect against R/B, I just wait it out until I can put out Wurm or Sphinx + counter backup, because R/B can't put you under much early pressure. I think hitting a turn 3 Scudder is very important in that matchup.
The card DA isn't a huge deal, but it can often strip our hand of the removal we need to fight down the road, because U is a deck full of threats. I'm just wondering if there isn't some other way to fight Wurm that we haven't thought of. Tumble Magnet gets used sometimes, but it's only a temporary answer, and R/B vs. U games go very long.
Can you expand on this? Why would we not board out the only good Clasp target they have, especially when we don't have a big need to ramp to 4 mana on turn 3? (They dont often have something we need to Scrap or Skinrend that early)
Also why do you run out Replica ASAP? I suppose if you are running Golems and want to get them to blow their Revoke it's okay, but if they saw Golems from you before, they probably won't do so.
I see what you're getting at with Shatter/Liquimetal, which is why I always try to save a Shatter/Scrapmelter for their Coating. Shatter is still a dead card for them against us if they don't draw liquimetal.
I'd be more than happy to playtest with you - and I have every major deck built except for Venser. (Don't have all the planeswalkers, and have no desire to play U/W mirror matches, so I haven't shelled out for all the walkers just to test) My MTGO s/n is the same as mine here, so just shoot me a message on there or here anytime.
Follow up to one of your previous posts about Scudder vs. Mono U. I can see what you're saying about them coming out fast and the life loss mattering, but doesn't pretty much everyone agree that Scudder is great vs. Mono R? And doesn't Mono R come out just as fast (if not faster) than U, plus has direct damage reach? So if the life loss isn't enough to offset Scudder's place against R, why would it against U?
Yes, they can match it with a Sphinx, but then we're still trading with a tough to remove card - and R can just trump it with a Phoenix. It may be that Scudder isn't as good against R as we think, but if we don't use it against R (and therefore not against U), then why is it in sideboards at all?
My list plays clasp target myrs. I run a high count of red cards to play Koth/scrap/skin/ANDmemoricide. I concede to early game removal almost as much as Paladium Myr, but at least I get a mana bump on my curve where it matters.
On that note I still feel like Memoricide is an amazing maindeck card. There are just so few cards the deck can lose to. There are no real swarm aggro decks that exist to make the board uneffecting Memoricide a terrible play. Especially when your early removal can take out that pressure to allow breathing room to cast Memoricide.
Other than that the debate really rests on Precusor Golem. I think he's trash. Big Blue and Venser are both getting into the Ancestral Recall that is running around, WHY GIVE IT TO THEM?
If you just grind out the games you will see that your card advantage buries every deck. When we get Into the Core for Masticore and Wurmcoil, then and only then will I consider removing Memoricide.
Even then.. Tezzeret is back. And he's looking for Wurmcoils and attacking with 5/5's. Maybe Memoricide is going to be better and better.
On that note, the only immediate update I see right now is Sphere of the Suns over my Myr to save my accel from creature removal. Phyrexian Rager may also be better than Replica, the real downside being that you lose the fog on Wurmcoil.
IMO Sphinx isn't dangerous at all. You can't stack damage so he's just a wall unless they want to trade. Necrogen is still good against Big Blue because they don't have a lot of flyers. You definitely can Grasp it which can leave you in charge of the air.
I wanted to point out that adding Sphere of the Suns really pushs the deck into the mana needed for Phoenix and even the metal to craft him back.
If that is the central debate, then I'm willing to test and debate both sides, although atm I'm on the Koth side. It gives us a way to not autolose to turn 3 Koth in Game 1 before we can board in Scudders, it's the best threat ever against Venser (our worst matchup), and because of our early removal, should be far easier to protect than the fragile Golem.
If you do want to run Golems - then I think the plan should be what I advocated for in the Red thread - overload their artifact removal. We can't let them save Revokes or Shatters just for Golem, so we should be running our own Wurmcoils in that case at a minimum. It certainly gives us a better way to fight opposing Wurms instead of conceding the card DA. Magnets would also be a must in that case, and maybe even things like Masticore?
I don't see any debate here. You said yourself how good Koth is, wait till you need him to kick Tezzeret in the nuts on the draw. (He goes to 4 if they impulse)
Golem is just going to draw your opponent three cards or get matched by theirs. Don't waste your time figuring this out yourself, take the short cut that discussion on a forum can offer you.
If you want to test out anything, play 3 Memoricides. Sphere is a strict upgrade to the mana Myr for the aforementioned reason. Lowering your curve to focus on 4's over 5ccs' just makes sense.
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