We need separate threads for these. Kuldotha Red is very different than "Big Koth" Red.
I tested the Koth splash Black a little last night - definitely helps against Infect, but the version I had (listed a page or so back) is so so cold to Venser. Even Memoricide doesn't help there - not sure it's worth it in the board.
We need separate threads for these. Kuldotha Red is very different than "Big Koth" Red.
I tested the Koth splash Black a little last night - definitely helps against Infect, but the version I had (listed a page or so back) is so so cold to Venser. Even Memoricide doesn't help there - not sure it's worth it in the board.
Might not be worth it considering you need the slots, but what if you used 6-8 slots to trade for some speed on the ground? Some kind of hybridized strategy.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
If you're going for a turn 4 kill then why play Ringleader? I would think Koth would be better in that spot.
Ringleader has been switched out for Contested War Zone. I'm considering running some Mox Opal in there somewhere as well for metalcraft enabler for Bolt.
Might not be worth it considering you need the slots, but what if you used 6-8 slots to trade for some speed on the ground? Some kind of hybridized strategy.
My apologies I thought Big Red was a RDW variant not realizing it was a Koth only deck. I posted the deck in the Decks for critique deck section however I thought it would be better here as a potential direction RDW could go.
I don't fault you for posting it here, as it may be a viable archetype. After next weeks Decks of the Week I hope to PM the mod and get this section cleaned up a bit with a better listing of competitive meta decks. "Big Red" is traditionally more of a midrange/control deck where Kuldotha is clearly an aggro deck. The only cards they have in common are 20 something mountains and burn.
Most of the Kuldotha varients I've seen run 1-2 Mox Opal. Accelerator, Metalcraft Enabler and of course in a pinch you can sac it. Do you find yourself having to Mull aggressively?
Ran through some test games vs infect last night. A few observations
1. Game 1 is still not in our favour but GFT definitely gives us a chance.
2. Pheonix and HSD are awful in this matchup and koth is not amazing.
3 artifacts with more than 4 toughness are amazing (we have been running 3 wurmcoil)
4. Instand speed removal is very important. Burn the impure, G.Blast and GFT (skittles and Inkmoth)
The difficult part about this deck is having enough slots in the main and board to deal with infect AND control whilst not damaging the mirror too much.
Has anyone tried mimic vat vs infect, seem they have no way to deal with it?
Will be running another 20 or so postboard matchups tonight, here is the deck so far.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I don't fault you for posting it here, as it may be a viable archetype. After next weeks Decks of the Week I hope to PM the mod and get this section cleaned up a bit with a better listing of competitive meta decks. "Big Red" is traditionally more of a midrange/control deck where Kuldotha is clearly an aggro deck. The only cards they have in common are 20 something mountains and burn.
Most of the Kuldotha varients I've seen run 1-2 Mox Opal. Accelerator, Metalcraft Enabler and of course in a pinch you can sac it. Do you find yourself having to Mull aggressively?
The problem is how few creatures actually have 5+ Toughness.
The only critter outside of Wurmcoil that I think might be viable is Thopter Assembly which still is 6 mana.
Dies to Go for the Throat, cant block Crusader. I'll play infect if it's a viable deck, but I think it still has a bad matchup against control.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Dies to Go for the Throat, cant block Crusader. I'll play infect if it's a viable deck, but I think it still has a bad matchup against control.
well, almost every card in the format dies to something right? or its go for throat or its crush.... but we still want to play creatures. besides that, you talked about 5+ toughness creatures which is irrelevant against go for throat. I´d rather go with some non-artifact creatures MD since we have a pesky "exile two target artifacts" card in the format.
well, almost every card in the format dies to something right? or its go for throat or its crush.... but we still want to play creatures. besides that, you talked about 5+ toughness creatures which is irrelevant against go for throat. I´d rather go with some non-artifact creatures MD since we have a pesky "exile two target artifacts" card in the format.
The conversation was about "how to deal with/SB for Infect"
Ran through some test games vs infect last night. A few observations
2. Pheonix and HSD are awful in this matchup and koth is not amazing.
3 artifacts with more than 4 toughness are amazing (we have been running 3 wurmcoil)
I know of 0 infect decks running Into the Core, or any of the other white 'exile' removal for that matter. Both Phoenix and HSD are in the main, but if I wanted 2 large artifacts for the SB that didn't die to GFT to sub in for dragon, what would I bring in.
That's where I got away suggesting Thopter Assembly. It puts a big body in the way that bounces away -1/-1's if it lives long enough, and it leaves behind a bunch of 1-1's that can block Skittles all day unless they get Zenith'ed.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
The conversation was about "how to deal with/SB for Infect"
I know of 0 infect decks running Into the Core, or any of the other white 'exile' removal for that matter. Both Phoenix and HSD are in the main, but if I wanted 2 large artifacts for the SB that didn't die to GFT to sub in for dragon, what would I bring in.
That's where I got away suggesting Thopter Assembly. It puts a big body in the way that bounces away -1/-1's if it lives long enough, and it leaves behind a bunch of 1-1's that can block Skittles all day unless they get Zenith'ed.
In that case Mimic Vat is a fantastic option. I have it in my SB quite weeks ago and I am never dissapointed of having it. Causes a lot of concern in several matches and situations.
Traditional build with no MBS, but my question is Monk (et all) have you tried the Liquimetal package or is it just wasted cards?
Seems like it would blow up Broodmothers just fine but if you didn't draw Liquimetal you could be stuck with a lot of shatters. The question is "is it better than splashing black"? We could side Memoricide too if it helped in certain matchups by playing black.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Traditional build with no MBS, but my question is Monk (et all) have you tried the Liquimetal package or is it just wasted cards?
Seems like it would blow up Broodmothers just fine but if you didn't draw Liquimetal you could be stuck with a lot of shatters. The question is "is it better than splashing black"? We could side Memoricide too if it helped in certain matchups by playing black.
Not really sure about that. The reason to use the Liquimetal package was imho to deal with creatures of 3+toughness which an un-metalcrafted galvanic blast can´t deal with. No the enviroment is different since you don´t have to worry about Architect or White blink creatures anymore since you have Slagstorm and Red Zenith. Besides that, you mentioned, you are relying in two card combination removal which is inneficient.
Black splash was good a feasible (with the downside of decreasing Koth´s Power. But the reason was basically the same. I think its not needed anymore.
I really like the Spikeshot Elder + Strata Scythe pack. Its good to have a 1 drop specially against infect if they play anything than Necropede of 1 toughness. it´s a very solid t 4 play (t1 SSE, t2 Myr, t3 scythe, t4 equip.)
I use Inkmoth Nexus on my deck (call me crazy) but I see no reason to not to run them in a mono-colored deck. It gives something more to worry about. Specially if Strata Scythe can kill you in one turn. Shine against long control games.
I feel that precursor golem is not as good as it was since, well everybody is ready to hit artifacts.
Not really sure about that. The reason to use the Liquimetal package was imho to deal with creatures of 3+toughness which an un-metalcrafted galvanic blast can´t deal with. No the enviroment is different since you don´t have to worry about Architect or White blink creatures anymore since you have Slagstorm and Red Zenith. Besides that, you mentioned, you are relying in two card combination removal which is inneficient.
Black splash was good a feasible (with the downside of decreasing Koth´s Power. But the reason was basically the same. I think its not needed anymore.
I really like the Spikeshot Elder + Strata Scythe pack. Its good to have a 1 drop specially against infect if they play anything than Necropede of 1 toughness. it´s a very solid t 4 play (t1 SSE, t2 Myr, t3 scythe, t4 equip.)
I use Inkmoth Nexus on my deck (call me crazy) but I see no reason to not to run them in a mono-colored deck. It gives something more to worry about. Specially if Strata Scythe can kill you in one turn. Shine against long control games.
I feel that precursor golem is not as good as it was since, well everybody is ready to hit artifacts.
Are you running Scythe in the Main? 2/2 1/3 0/3?
I agree on precursor. There are a lot better things to do with 5 mana.
I like Slagstorm. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on for a deck like this. Slag+ Galv can even cure Broodmother, plus it hits opposing Koths, Venser, Stag, Architect and Cat Tokens of which I'm seeing a lot more.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
It seems the only way to play Big Red now is to max out on Zeniths, and just hope to damage them out with those plus Koth and Phoenix. Slagstorm also seems like a must.
It still is so cold to a Phyrexian Crusader, but at least Zeniths can deal with a Vatmother. I've played against Red variants with my UB build now that use the main plan of basically trying to disintegrate me out with recurring Zeniths.
I agree on precursor. There are a lot better things to do with 5 mana.
I like Slagstorm. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on for a deck like this. Slag+ Galv can even cure Broodmother, plus it hits opposing Koths, Venser, Stag, Architect and Cat Tokens of which I'm seeing a lot more.
I use 4 Spikeshot Elder and 2 Strata Scythe. It´s surprising how long the goblin sticks on the board. Very good creature right now.
Agree with the Red Zenith. Last night I was so in trouble against Infect because I memoricided twice (Koth and Phoenix) and starting to draw lands lands lands. I ended the game with to consecutive Zeniths....Good to have a reusable Banefire.
I use 4 Spikeshot Elder and 2 Strata Scythe. It´s surprising how long the goblin sticks on the board. Very good creature right now.
Agree with the Red Zenith. Last night I was so in trouble against Infect because I memoricided twice (Koth and Phoenix) and starting to draw lands lands lands. I ended the game with to consecutive Zeniths....Good to have a reusable Banefire.
It can be kind of hard to figure out when to send it at the dome. I'm at 6 poison last night and staring down a 2/2. I've got 7 mountains with 1 in hand.
My opponent is at 15 life. I draw a zenith. I can kill the 2/2, or I can send it to the dome and pray for either another zenith or a blocker. Considering the shuffle effect they come up more than you think.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Not a choice for me, really. I prefer to kill the 2/2 and keep myself drawing cards longer, rather than shoot for double-or-nothing. Maybe that's why I'm not on the pro-tour...
Dispite getting my backside handed to me this weekend because I couldn't find a Koth at all, I noticed at least 2 lists that picked up my Thopter Assembly tech in the board. It can put a pile of nasty blockers in the way, is pretty much immune to Geth, Volition Reins and other cards that work against Wurmcoil, is immune ot Go for the Throat and Grasp of Darkness and if unanswerd can send a quick 10 through the air.
I boarded it in against both Infect and BWu Control.
I noticed a couple lists have gone back to Precursor Golem, but nearly every deck that isn't U/B or Infect got hated out over the weekend, which is kinda sad.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Dispite getting my backside handed to me this weekend because I couldn't find a Koth at all, I noticed at least 2 lists that picked up my Thopter Assembly tech in the board. It can put a pile of nasty blockers in the way, is pretty much immune to Geth, Volition Reins and other cards that work against Wurmcoil, is immune ot Go for the Throat and Grasp of Darkness and if unanswerd can send a quick 10 through the air.
I boarded it in against both Infect and BWu Control.
I noticed a couple lists have gone back to Precursor Golem, but nearly every deck that isn't U/B or Infect got hated out over the weekend, which is kinda sad.
Good call, Black is incredibly powerful right now. Specially in block. Best removal spells (almost played in extended). Yeap, indeed is a good options to find cards that are inmune to black removal. But isnt steel dragon strictly better? It has a nice ability which is quite harder to play around than Thopter Assembly. I mean, a well timed bounce can turn it into an awful situation.
Dispite getting my backside handed to me this weekend because I couldn't find a Koth at all, I noticed at least 2 lists that picked up my Thopter Assembly tech in the board. It can put a pile of nasty blockers in the way, is pretty much immune to Geth, Volition Reins and other cards that work against Wurmcoil, is immune ot Go for the Throat and Grasp of Darkness and if unanswerd can send a quick 10 through the air.
I boarded it in against both Infect and BWu Control.
I noticed a couple lists have gone back to Precursor Golem, but nearly every deck that isn't U/B or Infect got hated out over the weekend, which is kinda sad.
That immunity to Geth was really annoying this weekend for me in BSS draft. His 'thopter versus my mono-blue Geth deck (well, ALMOST mono-U I guess) was an enormous PITA. Fortunately, milling him for 5 was relevant at the time. Ended up losing that one in game three.
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
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I tested the Koth splash Black a little last night - definitely helps against Infect, but the version I had (listed a page or so back) is so so cold to Venser. Even Memoricide doesn't help there - not sure it's worth it in the board.
Might not be worth it considering you need the slots, but what if you used 6-8 slots to trade for some speed on the ground? Some kind of hybridized strategy.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=303120 is the forum for Kuldotha Red in Block. Maybe I'll build it tonight since its so dang cheep and take it for a spin. I think the most expensive card is Memnite.
Ringleader has been switched out for Contested War Zone. I'm considering running some Mox Opal in there somewhere as well for metalcraft enabler for Bolt.
My apologies I thought Big Red was a RDW variant not realizing it was a Koth only deck. I posted the deck in the Decks for critique deck section however I thought it would be better here as a potential direction RDW could go.
Most of the Kuldotha varients I've seen run 1-2 Mox Opal. Accelerator, Metalcraft Enabler and of course in a pinch you can sac it. Do you find yourself having to Mull aggressively?
The problem is how few creatures actually have 5+ Toughness.
The only critter outside of Wurmcoil that I think might be viable is Thopter Assembly which still is 6 mana.
Another option might be Sword of No Infect lol
Hoard-smelter dragon ???
Dies to Go for the Throat, cant block Crusader. I'll play infect if it's a viable deck, but I think it still has a bad matchup against control.
well, almost every card in the format dies to something right? or its go for throat or its crush.... but we still want to play creatures. besides that, you talked about 5+ toughness creatures which is irrelevant against go for throat. I´d rather go with some non-artifact creatures MD since we have a pesky "exile two target artifacts" card in the format.
The conversation was about "how to deal with/SB for Infect"
I know of 0 infect decks running Into the Core, or any of the other white 'exile' removal for that matter. Both Phoenix and HSD are in the main, but if I wanted 2 large artifacts for the SB that didn't die to GFT to sub in for dragon, what would I bring in.
That's where I got away suggesting Thopter Assembly. It puts a big body in the way that bounces away -1/-1's if it lives long enough, and it leaves behind a bunch of 1-1's that can block Skittles all day unless they get Zenith'ed.
His other suggestion was Mimic Vat.
sorry, my bad for not reading the entire thread.
In that case Mimic Vat is a fantastic option. I have it in my SB quite weeks ago and I am never dissapointed of having it. Causes a lot of concern in several matches and situations.
Traditional build with no MBS, but my question is Monk (et all) have you tried the Liquimetal package or is it just wasted cards?
Seems like it would blow up Broodmothers just fine but if you didn't draw Liquimetal you could be stuck with a lot of shatters. The question is "is it better than splashing black"? We could side Memoricide too if it helped in certain matchups by playing black.
Not really sure about that. The reason to use the Liquimetal package was imho to deal with creatures of 3+toughness which an un-metalcrafted galvanic blast can´t deal with. No the enviroment is different since you don´t have to worry about Architect or White blink creatures anymore since you have Slagstorm and Red Zenith. Besides that, you mentioned, you are relying in two card combination removal which is inneficient.
Black splash was good a feasible (with the downside of decreasing Koth´s Power. But the reason was basically the same. I think its not needed anymore.
I really like the Spikeshot Elder + Strata Scythe pack. Its good to have a 1 drop specially against infect if they play anything than Necropede of 1 toughness. it´s a very solid t 4 play (t1 SSE, t2 Myr, t3 scythe, t4 equip.)
I use Inkmoth Nexus on my deck (call me crazy) but I see no reason to not to run them in a mono-colored deck. It gives something more to worry about. Specially if Strata Scythe can kill you in one turn. Shine against long control games.
I feel that precursor golem is not as good as it was since, well everybody is ready to hit artifacts.
Are you running Scythe in the Main? 2/2 1/3 0/3?
I agree on precursor. There are a lot better things to do with 5 mana.
I like Slagstorm. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on for a deck like this. Slag+ Galv can even cure Broodmother, plus it hits opposing Koths, Venser, Stag, Architect and Cat Tokens of which I'm seeing a lot more.
It still is so cold to a Phyrexian Crusader, but at least Zeniths can deal with a Vatmother. I've played against Red variants with my UB build now that use the main plan of basically trying to disintegrate me out with recurring Zeniths.
I use 4 Spikeshot Elder and 2 Strata Scythe. It´s surprising how long the goblin sticks on the board. Very good creature right now.
Agree with the Red Zenith. Last night I was so in trouble against Infect because I memoricided twice (Koth and Phoenix) and starting to draw lands lands lands. I ended the game with to consecutive Zeniths....Good to have a reusable Banefire.
It can be kind of hard to figure out when to send it at the dome. I'm at 6 poison last night and staring down a 2/2. I've got 7 mountains with 1 in hand.
My opponent is at 15 life. I draw a zenith. I can kill the 2/2, or I can send it to the dome and pray for either another zenith or a blocker. Considering the shuffle effect they come up more than you think.
~M
I boarded it in against both Infect and BWu Control.
I noticed a couple lists have gone back to Precursor Golem, but nearly every deck that isn't U/B or Infect got hated out over the weekend, which is kinda sad.
Good call, Black is incredibly powerful right now. Specially in block. Best removal spells (almost played in extended). Yeap, indeed is a good options to find cards that are inmune to black removal. But isnt steel dragon strictly better? It has a nice ability which is quite harder to play around than Thopter Assembly. I mean, a well timed bounce can turn it into an awful situation.
That immunity to Geth was really annoying this weekend for me in BSS draft. His 'thopter versus my mono-blue Geth deck (well, ALMOST mono-U I guess) was an enormous PITA. Fortunately, milling him for 5 was relevant at the time. Ended up losing that one in game three.
~M
If phyrexian crusader is such a pain, has anyone considered running perilous myr?
Here's what i'm running:
4 Perilous Myr
3 Kuldotha Phoenix
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Oxidda Scrapmelter
4 Koth of the Hammer
4 Mortarpod
4 Sphere of the Suns
3 Burn the Impure
3 Galvanic Blast
3 Slagstorm
2 Red Sun's Zenith
3 Into the Core
3 Liquimetal Coating
3 Shatter
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Burn the Impure
1 Galvanic Blast
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Slagstorm
So others may live.