I can't agree with that, yanloup. The Red deck can win vs. Venser quite easily if they understand the matchup and play correctly (i.e. play around Sunblast).
Red boards into every creature they have, plays out Phoenixs first if they suspect U/W is sitting back on countermagic, and then just plays out its threats one at a time (Red has more threats than U/W has removal - they only have so many Revokes for Golems and Wurmcoils). Battlesphere and Golems are fantastic post-Sunblast plays, as they put tons of damage back on the field and instant-enable Metalcraft to recur Phoenixes.
U/W is also very weak to non-artifact threats - they only have Arrest, and often not even 4-of that. Magnet also comes in to make Sunblast a much worse play than normal. It really is a good matchup for Red, as long as you play it correctly.
I can use exactly the same arguments as yours: Indomitable Archangel is very hard to deal with for mono-red when I have a Spellbomb and a Clasp/Magnet out. The key-play is to get rid of mana myrs as soon as they come into play, so it's difficult to reach 7 mana on turn 7-8 consistently. Then I can sit on my countermagic or just wait for a Volition Reigns to deal with the Sphere. And you can trust me, Sunblast does its job properly.
I admit you may disagree, just check the recent MO block results and tell me why U/W is so dominant and why mono-red is slumping.
Mono red is slumping because Architect kills it, not because Venser does. U/W is king right now because too many people play Architect, which Venser beats.
The problem with your theory is you can't just sit back on countermagic vs. Red, because they should always have a threat out. That's why Red boards into its most threat-dense suite. Yes if you can clasp an early Myr that helps buy you time, but that's all it does - the threats will still hit eventually. Sunblast still does it's job, but its sooooo easy to play around it.
sure it is, but at the same time the deck does lose to both mono blue and u/w control pretty bad. Now if those 2 decks made up say 30-40% of the metagame and infect made up another 25-30 then yes mono red could be viable. However when the metagame is 30% U/W and another 40% mono blue control........ Then big red isn't viable here. Especially with esper control being another 10% atm. I was forced to shelve infect for the 3 week time span where mono red was 40%. However it's not here. For mono red to become viable let alone tier 1, it needs a good matchup in the tier 1 decks. RIght now there are 2 tier 1 decks because this isn't one. The fact that mono red is less than 5% of the metagame shows this.
(all percentages from mtgstats so I don't have to deal with donks being OMGZ your numbers are made up)
I can use exactly the same arguments as yours: Indomitable Archangel is very hard to deal with for mono-red when I have a Spellbomb and a Clasp/Magnet out. The key-play is to get rid of mana myrs as soon as they come into play, so it's difficult to reach 7 mana on turn 7-8 consistently. Then I can sit on my countermagic or just wait for a Volition Reigns to deal with the Sphere. And you can trust me, Sunblast does its job properly.
I admit you may disagree, just check the recent MO block results and tell me why U/W is so dominant and why mono-red is slumping.
maybe is that reason why mono red needs to evolve. increasing nunmber of threads to overload the counter magic and to increase the targets of volition can be good if you play 3cc,4cc,5cc spells.
Tumble Magnet MD is not a terrible idea if you want to be more controlling. Mimic Vat also worth trying.
I guess you're right. I don't see any card in BS that might give a boost to mono-red "as it is". Maybe a new build around sacrifying artifacts (Coating - MM - Barrage Ogre...), time will tell.
This deck definitely miss a card like Shrapnel Blast that can steal games.
From then on, I've had better results with my R/B deck Ooze/Masticore/Spikeshot that running plain red.
I would like to see something more infect proliferate oriented. So you can attack other decks from many different angles.
Indeed I will include 4 flying infect lands with my 4 contagion clasp build.
You will. There will be lots of different types of Tezz builds I'm sure, but I'm willing to bet there will be an aggro infect version of it, and a control proliferate version of it.
I actually don't see green doing anything. All of their creatures are irrelevant. Glissa gets kills by every piece of removal in the format. Thrun can't stand up to infect. GSZ has no creature it cares about getting outside of infect.
MBI is far superior to B/G infect. Too many infect are double green or black mana cost. Going G/B is very inconsistent.
Red has the best match up vs infect. They cannot race you. Hero of Oxid Ridge really pushes your aggro over the top. Burn the Impure is also a beating on infect. Phoenix and koth are hard for infect to deal with also.
The control match up is where red is weak. Its almost completely reliant on koth to land on turn 3-4 w/o it being countered.
To come back to the discussion of Red vs UW: I played both decks and unliss mana issues happen, I´d say UW is favored. The thing is, you can´t properly play around sunblast. If one sunblast is on the table you have to expect it being blinked at any time. So how can you attack? Sunblast is bigger than every 4 and 3 power guy in red. So you have to attack into it with threat overloads (unless you have magnet active) and will be vulnerable to another sunblast appearence again.
If as the Red player, you kept a hand that either didnt get you an early Koth, didn't have a Magnet, and didn't have a Dragon, then you deserve to lose vs. U/W.
All those are trumps to your scenario. It's actually quite easy to play around Sunblast. Before they have access to 6 mana, you should be attacking balls out to pressure their life total. Then once they could hit 6, you should only be swinging with Mountains or a Wurmcoil, unless you can threaten lethal. It helps even more to have Magnet sitting there waiting. This will make them play out Sunblast for less than full value because they can't go too low on life. Then once they do, you can either trump it with a Dragon, kill it with the Magnet if you had it, swing into it and kill it with a Gal Blast, or just play Golems/Battlesphere and start recurring Phoenixes.
Trust me, it's really not hard when done properly. I'd still be playing Red today if the Architect matchup weren't so piss poor.
If as the Red player, you kept a hand that either didnt get you an early Koth, didn't have a Magnet, and didn't have a Dragon, then you deserve to lose vs. U/W.
All those are trumps to your scenario. It's actually quite easy to play around Sunblast. Before they have access to 6 mana, you should be attacking balls out to pressure their life total. Then once they could hit 6, you should only be swinging with Mountains or a Wurmcoil, unless you can threaten lethal. It helps even more to have Magnet sitting there waiting. This will make them play out Sunblast for less than full value because they can't go too low on life. Then once they do, you can either trump it with a Dragon, kill it with the Magnet if you had it, swing into it and kill it with a Gal Blast, or just play Golems/Battlesphere and start recurring Phoenixes.
Trust me, it's really not hard when done properly. I'd still be playing Red today if the Architect matchup weren't so piss poor.
agreed with everything.
i still play red because I rely on sword with pro blue to beat architect and with MBS Phyrexian Revoker (and because i have just came back to magic and my first thing to do was buy a set of KoTH)
I have a new take on this archtype.
I notice there isn't a lot of longevity in the lists I've seen. I've also noticed the deck's burn spells do not get rid of grand architect. Grand architect makes the deck run. Why wouldn't you want to get rid of it?
Why kuldotha flamefiend? Kills planeswalkers. Kills Myr Tokens. Burns face. Value is gained from cip ability, therefore, voalition reigns is not as effective.
Why ichor wellspring? Goes great with kuldotha flamefiend (and if you wanted to, kuldotha rebirth). Acts a preventative against an opponents ratchet bomb, who would love to destroy sphere of the suns.
Why red sun's zenith? Games go long. Shuffling this card in allows for resusable burn when combined with the synergy of ichor wellspring.
Why slagstorm? It defeats grand architect, and planeswalkers. It is clean and efficient, and allows for x for 1s. It burns opponents face.
Inkmoth nexus? Inkmoth nexus is going to be popular in mono-colored strategies because there is no reason not to play this card. Multiple of these are a beating in any game. The limited reason that it isn't good in Koth isn't the best excuse, because you run 18-22 mountain, and ichor wellspring.
Why tumble magnet? It is good against wyrm coil engine. You don't want this thing to contact you. You want time to draw your red sun's zenith to remove it from the game. This card does just that.
Why Mox Opal? Opal is the odd one out as it dies to a lot of artifact hate (least of which is ratchet bomb), but when it comes to turning a galvanic blast or and accelerating mana into a turn four kuldotha flamefiend, the benefits become clear.
Why chimeric mass? There is a reason why I fear my chimeric mass getting voalitioned reigned. This thing is hard to kill unless the opponent has maindeck artifact hate. It also makes a great late game spell.
Why koth in the sideboard? How many matchups is he good in? RDW isn't blazing fast enough to win with a 4/4. It will get hit by signal pest and galvanic blast all day long, and it doesn't do anything against thrun or precursor golem. It is also quite vulnerable without blockers if you are going for his ultimate.
What is the deck weak against? The deck is week against thrun, voalition reigns, and tempered steel. Sideboard helps against voalition reigns and tempered steel strategies with liquid metal coating, but thrun you have to land a blocker for thrun. The final arctrail and package of hoard smelter dragons round out the list.
Really, I don't see how any monoR can win consistently without Kuldotha Phoenix...THE condition for monoR to exist.
Yup phoenix is the reach that mono red needs. You just deny/disrupt their first few turns and answer koth. After that its easy to beat. Till they burn you out EOT then drop pheonix and end game.
This guy is prepared for pushing people into late game. Probably not a good idea considering you probably won't have any lands left. LD has been a rising architect in my meta.
I have a new take on this archtype.
I notice there isn't a lot of longevity in the lists I've seen. I've also noticed the deck's burn spells do not get rid of grand architect. Grand architect makes the deck run. Why wouldn't you want to get rid of it?
Because the lists you were looking at were pre-MBS. There was no way for Red to kill Architect back then.
You've got like 3 win conditions in the whole deck, and they're all weak.
Nexuses could steal a game, but they're very slow to do so and it's not like people don't have removal. I don't expect these to win on their own.
As a win con, Flamefiend is awful. He's not even great at removal for 6cc.
Chimeric Masses are okay, but everyone has artifact hate.
Recurring Zeniths are way too slow to just burn someone out.
Why koth in the sideboard? How many matchups is he good in? RDW isn't blazing fast enough to win with a 4/4. It will get hit by signal pest and galvanic blast all day long, and it doesn't do anything against thrun or precursor golem. It is also quite vulnerable without blockers if you are going for his ultimate.
Sooooo you want to take the best card in the color, the whole reason to play red in block, and keep him in the SB? Wow.
What is the deck weak against? The deck is week against thrun, voalition reigns, and tempered steel. Sideboard helps against voalition reigns and tempered steel strategies with liquid metal coating, but thrun you have to land a blocker for thrun. The final arctrail and package of hoard smelter dragons round out the list.
You also can't beat the new infect decks at all, and Venser decks completely own your soul. Seriously, try it. I put the winning percentage of this deck against those at < 20%.
Venser/Architect/Infect are the new baseline from which to compare all new block ideas. If you can't beat two of those three, the deck isn't worth it.
And FYI to all, the new Infect deck pretty much destroys all Koth Red builds. Seriously. Phyrxian Crusader and Vatmother are a complete house.
The problem with a spash is that it makes Koth weaker, I guess I could see splashing 4 cliiffs and 2 swamps but no more than that
Not that much, really. It's unlikely you'd see more than 1 non-mountain in a game, and it would only even come into play if you hit ultimate, but come up a tad short killing them in time. That's enough of a far-off scenario that it wouldn't concern me compared to the upside.
Yep. Though I prefer Arc Trail over BtI (even against infect), that looks good.
I see Burn the Impure as a good card since it is very efficient against inkmoth nexus. Indeed with the upgrade of infect deck arc trail could be a nice maindeck pick, even the 3 damage sweeper can make into the spot. Unfortunately sorcery speed does not kills Inkmoth Nexus which is going to see A LOT of play. Instant speed removal is a must as a 4 of.
Not sure about the splash since mono colored deck can get benefit from InkMoth Nexus which is very good with contagion clasp, sphere of suns, tumble magnet and koth in a different approach of a control deck.
BtI isn't there just for Infect - it kills Arbiter. Less important (but still) it kills Stags, Sphinxes and Skinrenders.
I'm actually wondering how good Arc Trail is right now. Infect doesn't run many x/1's anymore so the 2 for 1 won't happen, other Koth red only has Myrs (and less of those because of Sphere) - I guess you could live the dream vs. Architect and hope to hit a Palladium + Silver Myr? I'd still rather hit an Arbiter or Sphinx. And it's almost a dead draw vs. Venser.
I'm seriously almost at the point of not even sideboarding it. Someone convince me why Arc Trail is still good - and use the lists that have been winning Daily Events on MTGO (can see them at www.mtgonline.com) as reference.
Monk - How often were you finding yourself with 3 untapped mana sources and a tapped mana generator in play when you really wanted to play a 4-drop? Between the cliffs and the spheres, that seems like a very real risk.
Monk - How often were you finding yourself with 3 untapped mana sources and a tapped mana generator in play when you really wanted to play a 4-drop? Between the cliffs and the spheres, that seems like a very real risk.
~M
It would happen less than you think, but more often when you were trying to hit Phoenix mana. If you are on T3 hoping to drop Koth Cliffs are still comming in untapped.
Mana Myr had to wait too. The only thing they were good for after that was chumping (or getting opponents to waste removal on them).
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So no one took me up on the Arc Trail offer huh? I still fail to see a matchup where it's actually good right now, so I'm not going to board it anymore.
I'm going to test this B splash version with Throat main and Memoricide SB.
What are those perilous myr for? More Infect/Aggro tech?
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Are we seeing Kuldotha Red in any T8 finisher lists? I've been running one the last two days, with a very suboptimal build, and it's still wrecking everything as early as T4. U/W Control, Tezzbola, Big Red, Mono-W.
The sideboard is still a work in progress not quite sure where to go with it. Between the battle cry pumping up the creatures and the burn to get the creatures through I haven't yet needed anything from the sideboard. I'm thinking about tossing in Contested War Zone" target="blank">Contested War Zone and see how that works
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Red boards into every creature they have, plays out Phoenixs first if they suspect U/W is sitting back on countermagic, and then just plays out its threats one at a time (Red has more threats than U/W has removal - they only have so many Revokes for Golems and Wurmcoils). Battlesphere and Golems are fantastic post-Sunblast plays, as they put tons of damage back on the field and instant-enable Metalcraft to recur Phoenixes.
U/W is also very weak to non-artifact threats - they only have Arrest, and often not even 4-of that. Magnet also comes in to make Sunblast a much worse play than normal. It really is a good matchup for Red, as long as you play it correctly.
I estimate that is 60-70 in my favor. Is molten-tail masticore good post sb?
You just don't want Red around because its the worst matchup for your Infect
Mono red is slumping because Architect kills it, not because Venser does. U/W is king right now because too many people play Architect, which Venser beats.
The problem with your theory is you can't just sit back on countermagic vs. Red, because they should always have a threat out. That's why Red boards into its most threat-dense suite. Yes if you can clasp an early Myr that helps buy you time, but that's all it does - the threats will still hit eventually. Sunblast still does it's job, but its sooooo easy to play around it.
(all percentages from mtgstats so I don't have to deal with donks being OMGZ your numbers are made up)
maybe is that reason why mono red needs to evolve. increasing nunmber of threads to overload the counter magic and to increase the targets of volition can be good if you play 3cc,4cc,5cc spells.
Tumble Magnet MD is not a terrible idea if you want to be more controlling. Mimic Vat also worth trying.
I would like to see something more infect proliferate oriented. So you can attack other decks from many different angles.
Indeed I will include 4 flying infect lands with my 4 contagion clasp build.
...time will tell
MBI is far superior to B/G infect. Too many infect are double green or black mana cost. Going G/B is very inconsistent.
Red has the best match up vs infect. They cannot race you. Hero of Oxid Ridge really pushes your aggro over the top. Burn the Impure is also a beating on infect. Phoenix and koth are hard for infect to deal with also.
The control match up is where red is weak. Its almost completely reliant on koth to land on turn 3-4 w/o it being countered.
If as the Red player, you kept a hand that either didnt get you an early Koth, didn't have a Magnet, and didn't have a Dragon, then you deserve to lose vs. U/W.
All those are trumps to your scenario. It's actually quite easy to play around Sunblast. Before they have access to 6 mana, you should be attacking balls out to pressure their life total. Then once they could hit 6, you should only be swinging with Mountains or a Wurmcoil, unless you can threaten lethal. It helps even more to have Magnet sitting there waiting. This will make them play out Sunblast for less than full value because they can't go too low on life. Then once they do, you can either trump it with a Dragon, kill it with the Magnet if you had it, swing into it and kill it with a Gal Blast, or just play Golems/Battlesphere and start recurring Phoenixes.
Trust me, it's really not hard when done properly. I'd still be playing Red today if the Architect matchup weren't so piss poor.
agreed with everything.
i still play red because I rely on sword with pro blue to beat architect and with MBS Phyrexian Revoker (and because i have just came back to magic and my first thing to do was buy a set of KoTH)
I notice there isn't a lot of longevity in the lists I've seen. I've also noticed the deck's burn spells do not get rid of grand architect. Grand architect makes the deck run. Why wouldn't you want to get rid of it?
Here is my deck.
4 inkmoth nexus
Red Spells
3 slagstorm
3 red sun's zenith
3 arc trail
4 galvanic blast
4 ratchet bomb
3 mox opal
4 ichor wellspring
4 sphere of the suns
3 chimeric mass
3 tumble magnet
4 kuldotha flamefiend
4 liquid metal coating
4 oxida scrapmelter
3 hoard smelter dragon
1 arctrail
3 koth of the hammer
Why kuldotha flamefiend? Kills planeswalkers. Kills Myr Tokens. Burns face. Value is gained from cip ability, therefore, voalition reigns is not as effective.
Why ichor wellspring? Goes great with kuldotha flamefiend (and if you wanted to, kuldotha rebirth). Acts a preventative against an opponents ratchet bomb, who would love to destroy sphere of the suns.
Why red sun's zenith? Games go long. Shuffling this card in allows for resusable burn when combined with the synergy of ichor wellspring.
Why slagstorm? It defeats grand architect, and planeswalkers. It is clean and efficient, and allows for x for 1s. It burns opponents face.
Inkmoth nexus? Inkmoth nexus is going to be popular in mono-colored strategies because there is no reason not to play this card. Multiple of these are a beating in any game. The limited reason that it isn't good in Koth isn't the best excuse, because you run 18-22 mountain, and ichor wellspring.
Why tumble magnet? It is good against wyrm coil engine. You don't want this thing to contact you. You want time to draw your red sun's zenith to remove it from the game. This card does just that.
Why Mox Opal? Opal is the odd one out as it dies to a lot of artifact hate (least of which is ratchet bomb), but when it comes to turning a galvanic blast or and accelerating mana into a turn four kuldotha flamefiend, the benefits become clear.
Why chimeric mass? There is a reason why I fear my chimeric mass getting voalitioned reigned. This thing is hard to kill unless the opponent has maindeck artifact hate. It also makes a great late game spell.
Why koth in the sideboard? How many matchups is he good in? RDW isn't blazing fast enough to win with a 4/4. It will get hit by signal pest and galvanic blast all day long, and it doesn't do anything against thrun or precursor golem. It is also quite vulnerable without blockers if you are going for his ultimate.
What is the deck weak against? The deck is week against thrun, voalition reigns, and tempered steel. Sideboard helps against voalition reigns and tempered steel strategies with liquid metal coating, but thrun you have to land a blocker for thrun. The final arctrail and package of hoard smelter dragons round out the list.
Yup phoenix is the reach that mono red needs. You just deny/disrupt their first few turns and answer koth. After that its easy to beat. Till they burn you out EOT then drop pheonix and end game.
This guy is prepared for pushing people into late game. Probably not a good idea considering you probably won't have any lands left. LD has been a rising architect in my meta.
Because the lists you were looking at were pre-MBS. There was no way for Red to kill Architect back then.
You've got like 3 win conditions in the whole deck, and they're all weak.
Nexuses could steal a game, but they're very slow to do so and it's not like people don't have removal. I don't expect these to win on their own.
As a win con, Flamefiend is awful. He's not even great at removal for 6cc.
Chimeric Masses are okay, but everyone has artifact hate.
Recurring Zeniths are way too slow to just burn someone out.
Sooooo you want to take the best card in the color, the whole reason to play red in block, and keep him in the SB? Wow.
You also can't beat the new infect decks at all, and Venser decks completely own your soul. Seriously, try it. I put the winning percentage of this deck against those at < 20%.
Venser/Architect/Infect are the new baseline from which to compare all new block ideas. If you can't beat two of those three, the deck isn't worth it.
And FYI to all, the new Infect deck pretty much destroys all Koth Red builds. Seriously. Phyrxian Crusader and Vatmother are a complete house.
Whatcha thinkin? Splash black for Throat?
Not that much, really. It's unlikely you'd see more than 1 non-mountain in a game, and it would only even come into play if you hit ultimate, but come up a tad short killing them in time. That's enough of a far-off scenario that it wouldn't concern me compared to the upside.
So what do we remove for it? Blast, I assume?
4 R/B Dual
2 Swamp
4 Phoenix
3 Hoard-Smelter
3 Precursor
2 Iron Myr
4 Scrapmelter
4 Sphere of the Suns
4 Go for the Throat
4 Burn the Impure
3 Tumble Magnet
Something like that?
I see Burn the Impure as a good card since it is very efficient against inkmoth nexus. Indeed with the upgrade of infect deck arc trail could be a nice maindeck pick, even the 3 damage sweeper can make into the spot. Unfortunately sorcery speed does not kills Inkmoth Nexus which is going to see A LOT of play. Instant speed removal is a must as a 4 of.
Not sure about the splash since mono colored deck can get benefit from InkMoth Nexus which is very good with contagion clasp, sphere of suns, tumble magnet and koth in a different approach of a control deck.
I'm actually wondering how good Arc Trail is right now. Infect doesn't run many x/1's anymore so the 2 for 1 won't happen, other Koth red only has Myrs (and less of those because of Sphere) - I guess you could live the dream vs. Architect and hope to hit a Palladium + Silver Myr? I'd still rather hit an Arbiter or Sphinx. And it's almost a dead draw vs. Venser.
I'm seriously almost at the point of not even sideboarding it. Someone convince me why Arc Trail is still good - and use the lists that have been winning Daily Events on MTGO (can see them at www.mtgonline.com) as reference.
~M
It would happen less than you think, but more often when you were trying to hit Phoenix mana. If you are on T3 hoping to drop Koth Cliffs are still comming in untapped.
Mana Myr had to wait too. The only thing they were good for after that was chumping (or getting opponents to waste removal on them).
I'm going to test this B splash version with Throat main and Memoricide SB.
22 Mountains
Creatures: 15
4 Goblin Gavileer
4 Spikeshot Elder
4 Memnite
1 Kuldotha Phoenix
1 HSD
1 Chimeric Mass
1 Koth
1 Mox Opal
4 Darksteel Axe
4 Kuldotha Sacrifice
2 Ichor Wellspring
4 Galvanite Blast
4 Arc Trail
3 Shatter
Sideboard is still evolving. Really, I just built this because my mono-black deck turned out to be so very very bad...
~M
4 Burn The Impure
4 Chimeric Mass
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Kuldotha Rebirth
2 Kuldotha Ringleader
4 Memnite
4 Signal Pest
4 Spikeshot Elder
4 Tumble Magnet
4 Contagion Clasp
1 Helkite Igniter
2 Metallic Mastery
4 Shatter
The sideboard is still a work in progress not quite sure where to go with it. Between the battle cry pumping up the creatures and the burn to get the creatures through I haven't yet needed anything from the sideboard. I'm thinking about tossing in Contested War Zone" target="blank">Contested War Zone and see how that works