MTG Salvation

Vodka's right about the T2 thing. Too much arti-hate against too fragile a deck.

Also, and as much as I hate to admit it, he's also right about Unspeakable. After tests, it works out. I want to mention that I COMPLETELY forgot that Unspeakable could return Vengeance to my hand, or I wouldn't have argued against it so bad. So I apologize to all that I argued with on this. Here's my current list.

Creatures

4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Soratami Cloudskater (admittedly good here if I'm forced into blue)
4x Kuro, Pitlord
4x Myojin of Life's Web
4x Patron of the Orochi
2x The Unspeakable (still can't hardcast it, so it stays at 2)

4x Slumbering Tora

4x Goryu's Vengeance
4x Time of Need
2x Eerie Procession (still not sold on this, but I'll test it b/c I can't find anything better)
2x Enshrined Memories

4x Tendo Ice Bridge (one of the best BOK rares as I've experienced)
4x Forbidden Orchard (a 1/1 against my Kuro? Oh noes!)
8x Forest
4x Swamp
4x Island

myojins dont have the counters on em and there are better reanimator targets

Just a thought since goryu's vengeance is, apart from tora, the most important card in you're deck and you want to be able to have it and use it and you also don't want to go into a 3rd colour(blues the only choice if you do);
WHY DON'T YOU RUN HANA KAMI?!
It costs G is a spirit and gets you back goryu's vengeance so that you can cast it again. also since vengeance can be spliced pretty cheaply why not use more arcane spells like either of the instant black arcane kill spells(rend flesh and horobi's whisper) to take advantage of it.

If the deck does indeed go the Blue route, how about Thirst for Knowledge? It digs a lot deeper (and faster) than the suggested Soratami Cloudskater.

Also, has anyone looked at Iname, Death Aspect? If you manage to get your Splice/Vengeance engine running, Iname can prevent you from running out of fatties to swing with. Someone mentioned Horobi's Wail - Iname would fuel that, too.

Quote from Hvirfilvindr »

If the deck does indeed go the Blue route, how about Thirst for Knowledge? It digs a lot deeper (and faster) than the suggested Soratami Cloudskater.

Also, has anyone looked at Iname, Death Aspect? If you manage to get your Splice/Vengeance engine running, Iname can prevent you from running out of fatties to swing with. Someone mentioned Horobi's Wail - Iname would fuel that, too.

The deck is Kamigawa Block, so Thirst is out of the question.

Death Aspect actually counds like a good idea. I can fetch it with Time of Need, and do the same pitch/reanimate combo to dump my creatures into the 'yard. I think I'll replace Enshrined Memories with Death Aspect.

I don't like Toils, it's just not a very good card in general, and Veil of Secrecy...well, maybe, but I'm trying not to commit too many resources to blue.

Vodka, I'm not too worried about getting to the fatty I need with 4x Time of Need. It effectively gives me 8 Kuros when the time is right, so I should be able to get one of them, and if I add 2 Death Aspects, that gives me 10 chances to get it.

What no one's noticed (and I'm surprised) is the potential I have to splice a Vengeance onto a Vengeance and really beat face; with 7 mana, I can have 3 fatties out (say, Unspeakable, Kuro, and other random Legend).

Patron can get cut. Sift is too expensive for what it does though, even if it lets me pitch a target. I'll put 4 Gifts Ungiven (I actually had these in the build over Patron but I lost the paper I wrote it out on).

The deck as it now stands:

Creatures

4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Soratami Cloudskater
4x Kuro, Pitlord
4x Kokusho, The Evening Star (if I can get them; if not, Jugan)
2x Iname, Death Aspect
2x The Unspeakable

4x Slumbering Tora

4x Goryu's Vengeance
4x Time of Need
4x Gifts Ungiven
2x Eerie Procession

4x Tendo Ice Bridge
4x Forbidden Orchard
5x Forest (6 if Jugan)
6x Swamp (5 if Jugan)
5x Island

Quote from KPDaly16 »

The deck is Kamigawa Block, so Thirst is out of the question.

I just assumed that the deck would be for Type 2, given that the title of the thread is 'T2 Tora/Reanimator deck'.

I don't like He Who Hungers at all, and I'm really under the impression that the deck doesn't really need a sacrifice outlet (1.x Reanimator never used one). Divining Top could be an interesting inclusion. I still don't think Sift Through Sands is efficient enough.

I tested the deck a bit, and while Sift is great if I can cast it, the double blue does hurt. Also, i'm definitely keeping Kokushos in the deck, since it makes Vengeanced spliced onto Vengeance equal to a 10-life drain if I can dump 2 Kokushos, and you'd be surprised how often that happens. Or, I can Vengeance one back, attack for 5, then Vengeance the other one back. That way, not only do I get a 25-life turnaround, but if they're not dead, both Kokushos are back in the 'yard for my next Vengeance.

I might consider Hana Kami, but I'm not sure. Running out of Vengeances is bad.

maybe use some bounce (Consuming vortex) so that instead of saccing you can return to hand/re-use with tora. Added bonus: can be used on opponents creatures.

Quote from TheLion »

Just a rules question: Does it work, if I Vengeance my Pitlord out of the graveyard, kill their creatures, attack, and then send him on the otherworldy journy and still have him in play at the next turn?
Both triggered events of vengeance and journy trigger at the same time, so u can choose which one first, right? So you chose the journy first, then the vengeance. Vengeance ability resolves -> no target, then journy -> return it to play.
Would be create with a CitP creature.
Does that work anyway?

Yep that works. If you cast Otherworldly Journey any creature reanimated by Gyoro's Vengance, then GV will loose track of that creature and be unable to force you to sacrifice it. It doesn't actually matter in which order you stack their triggers. Once the creature comes back from it's journey, in so far as GV is concerned it is a different creature entirely.

athelred

Don't forget that if you have a big life advantage early, you can have Kuro kill himself to avoid RFG. If you started with two Vengeance in hand, that could pretty well end the game right there.

Mad Tapper: Yep, I know that, but the situation hasn't come up yet. I can also do all kinds of crazy Legend Rule tricks, like if I have 2 GV's in hand and 2 Unspeakables in the 'yard, GV one Unspeakable back, hit them to get my GV back, then GV the other Unspeakable to send both to the graveyard. That's even more fun when you splice GV to GV and bring back 2 Kokushos.

Lion: That's a cool idea, and I'd use it if I thought I could afford to add White to the deck. Although, I have 5 colors available so often, I've been seriously considering adding a single Genju of the Realm to the deck.

Could this get moved to Block Constructed? I've seen other things getting moved around.

Thanks Jedit and Sneaky.

Vodka, for your comments, I agree entirely. I've been fooling around with a single Genju over my 4th Kuro just for fun, but I'd probably cut it out for tournament play. However, in a format with things like Cranial Extraction, having a surprise win condition could be effective, and when I drew my 1 Genju, I tended to be able to cast it by turn 4 or 5. So I was thinking that, if I ever bring this deck to a tournament, I would add 2 or so Genjus to the SB for matchups against Extraction (which ruins my day otherwise). As far as Journey goes, the only reason I could see adding White would be if I also added in Final Judgment, since this deck doesn't tend to keep many creatures in play anyway. I would replace Green with White, but I want to keep Time of Need.

I actually did the whole Kuro-kills-Kokusho thing in a game today, to win the game 6-0 (I started at 6 life, he was at 5). Toshi seems kind of...gimmicky, though it does have potential, and works as a good blocker.

Sideboard in progress!

4x Defiance
4x Psychic Spear
2x Toshi (I can justify him in SB vs. Zuberas and such)
2x Genju of the Realm (for now)
3x ????

Fun trick: Toshi in play, Defiance in graveyard. Opponent tries to cast Devouring Greed, saccing a bunch of Spirits. Upon sacrifice, Toshi triggers, letting me play Defiance from graveyard targeting the Devouring Greed. Wee.

i like the blue route it gives you many arcane spells, that way you can splice the goryo's vengeance on a lot.


i'm thinking maybe U/B with

4 Kokusho
3 Keiga
4 Goryo's vengeance
3 Slumbering tora
2 Myojin of night's reach
4 Reach through mists
4 Unspeakable
3 Counsel of the Soratami
3 Gifts ungiven
13 Island
10 Swamp
3 Consuming Vortex
4 Hideous Laughter


Ugh.
thats really slow.
maybe green is the way to go, but green doesn't have a whole lot of arcane. if only wayfarer's bauble were still in.

Vodka: I forgot about Wear Away. That was supposed to be there. That and Defiance are about the only things that are guaranteed. Everything else is up in the air. I'm not so sure I want Extraction in the SB, unless a combo deck or something like this one becomes the top deck in Block. I actually don't like Dosan at all here, since I like playing tricks with the instant-ness of Vengeance to block an annoying creature that may be barring my path otherwise. Meddling isn't worthwhile. Defiance is almost strictly better, since you'll mostly be Meddling Arcanes anyway if you want to hit multiple spells.

Baloth: You don't need to splice Vengeance. One should be enough. Green provides the deck with Sakura-Tribe Elder for mana fixing and Time of Need to find targets. Also, Myojin of Night's Reach is terrible.

On a bright note, my current build minus SB pulled off a turn-4 kill today. I played STE turn 2, played Tora turn 3 and swung with STE, then pitched Kuro to Tora, reanimated Kuro, killed his blocker, and swung for 19 on turn 4. It's things like that that make me believe this deck has a shot. It's a Block Constructed deck in a slow block that can kill you on turn 4. Heck, Affinity needs a good draw to do that. And if I go first, they'll never get to the 4 mana to Extract...

I'm still in utter doubt about this reanimator thing.Yyou're banking on having those nasty spirits in hand and draw the tora and not getting it shot down (which can be a problem especially after sideboarding) so this deck is actually banking on drawing perfect and not getting any disruption thrown at it which seems quite fragile but the addition of green is invaluable though in adding mana fixing and library search which is in my opinion better than what blue has to offer in terms of card advantage. but I think block might not be as slow as we wish it to be...I still feel there is a killer application missing for this deck.

Quote from KPDaly16 »

Vodka: I forgot about Wear Away. That was supposed to be there. That and Defiance are about the only things that are guaranteed. Everything else is up in the air. I'm not so sure I want Extraction in the SB, unless a combo deck or something like this one becomes the top deck in Block. I actually don't like Dosan at all here, since I like playing tricks with the instant-ness of Vengeance to block an annoying creature that may be barring my path otherwise. Meddling isn't worthwhile. Defiance is almost strictly better, since you'll mostly be Meddling Arcanes anyway if you want to hit multiple spells.

Baloth: You don't need to splice Vengeance. One should be enough. Green provides the deck with Sakura-Tribe Elder for mana fixing and Time of Need to find targets. Also, Myojin of Night's Reach is terrible.

On a bright note, my current build minus SB pulled off a turn-4 kill today. I played STE turn 2, played Tora turn 3 and swung with STE, then pitched Kuro to Tora, reanimated Kuro, killed his blocker, and swung for 19 on turn 4. It's things like that that make me believe this deck has a shot. It's a Block Constructed deck in a slow block that can kill you on turn 4. Heck, Affinity needs a good draw to do that. And if I go first, they'll never get to the 4 mana to Extract...

I'll test out Toshi, but I'm not sure what to cut for it. Also, I want to push Kokusho to 4, because it's pretty much the only threat I can cast while it still matters.

Also, as I've discovered, the deck really doesn't need Tora to win. It speeds things up, but a Cloudskater does the job fine.

I really do want an answer to Cranial Extraction, but I just can't find one yet. The best anti-Extraction card is Extraction itself.

I kinda have a rough idea of what to put in the tora reanimator. You will need kokusho(duh), otherworldly journey(bounce ur creature and keep it), long forgotten gohei(so kokusho is better and ur reanimator spell costs one black), devouring greed (so u can sack ur kokusho splice ur reanimator spell and gain loads of life), and obviously the tora. Apart from the mana the deck seems like it can work.

Otherworldly Journey is White, something the deck can't afford to run.

Devouring Greed: So you're saying that it's a good thing to have cast Kokusho for 6 mana, then cast Devouring Greed and splice Goryu's Vengeance for 7 mana, all to drain 9 life and hope you have another creature in the graveyard. Greed isn't for this deck, it's for a deck that can win by casting it.

Long-Forgotten Gohei just isn't really necessary. +1/+1 isn't that big of a deal when you're going to have 1 creature out most of the game, and I'm not about to pay 3 mana to get a 1-mana discount on one spell in my deck.

If you want an idea of what to put in the deck, look back at what we've said. We already discussed Journey, and I'm sure you can see why the others are bad here if you read through.

This actually seems like a pretty cool deck. I think BG is probably the way to go, for speed and stability reasons. How about, off the top of my head:

After some tests, I don't like Forbidden Orchard, but I'm also having some trouble with finding the right colors of mana. I was thinking of cutting Orchards for 2 Swamp, 1 Forest, and 1 Island, then maybe fitting Kodama's Reach back into the deck. I also tested Toshiro out in the deck since I just picked one up, and he failed. There wasn't a single time that he was of any use to me, or even could have been of use had I drawn it. I judge whether a card is worthy of a deck by seeing if there is ever a time when I say "Man, I wish I had (card) right now", and I just didn't find myself saying that about Toshi.

I might still want to find room for Hana Kami, but it seems less and less like I need it as I learn the quirks of the deck better.

I'm actually starting to rethink Death Aspect. With enough mana speed, hardcasting Kuro or Unspeakable late in a stalemate can break the game wide open, so dumping them all to my grave might not be the best idea. Unless I were to add Stir the Grave...

So here's a list of cards I feel could be worthy of fitting into the deck now:

Stir the Grave
Kodama's Reach
Hana Kami

And a list of things potentially cuttable:

Toshiro Umezawa
Iname, Death Aspect
Forbidden Orchard

g

I dont really no much about the deck, but do agree that at least a few hana kami's and kodamas reaches will be needed. At least 2 of each, since they arent nessecarily the key components of the deck, but help fuel the key components of the deck.