You think this brings Stubborn Denial to a 4 of include on the Main Deck list?
It's hard to say how many we want without seeing how things shake out. But 2-3 seems like a good start. There's another world where we become a BBE deck, cutting the Stubs altogether, but I don't think we would have enough card advantage to really stand up to the the Jace decks and other BBE decks and make that worthwhile.
Do you think the reinstatement of Jace and Bloodbraid increases the value of Lightning Bolt in our deck?
Absolutely. I mentioned this in an edit to my original post about the unbans.
Should we consider the amount of Inquisition of Kozilek since they can't hit either of these targets?
Possibly, but IoK will also be very good against many of the noninteractive decks that rise up to beat the Jace decks before they get going. IoK also still protects our threats - we will have to kill them before they get established, and taking a key removal spell so our Goyfs and Shadows can get to work is a large part of that.
Should we consider the amount of Inquisition of Kozilek since they can't hit either of these targets?
My instinct here is no. Discard is still good against these decks, and while we may want Thoughtseize more IoK is still excellent. We will need to prioritize taking the 4 drops with Thoughtseizes because they can't be answered cleanly otherwise, but interacting in the early turns is still essential.
Jace decks will have Paths, Mana Leaks, Spreading Seas, Snapcaster Mages, Logic Knots, and a whole host of other things that we want to hit. BBE decks have their own discard, Decay, Terminate, Dark Confidant, Liliana; literally every card in their deck but Bloodbraid. IoK doesn't take the curve-topping finisher, but it still hits the majority of the decks.
To put it another way, Jace coming down when we are behind or at parity is clearly bad, but if the first meaningful thing they do is tap out on turn 4 we are probably way ahead, even if their 4 drop is super high powered.
BBE doesn't fit it at all no matter how good a card it is. Too many situational cards, TBR, Stub, all the removal, Baubles, turned off traverse, etc. Not to mention 4 mana isn't even a consistent threshold you reach every game - if you're playing 4 copies your hand will be cluttered too often, and if you play less copies or use it as a traverse bullet then its a wildly inconsistent card in a deck that needs consistent results with the way you're managing your life total. Re-imagining the deck to fit BBE turns it in to a regular Jund deck with no shadows.
I see a lot of discussion on how Jace affects the deck, but all of it aimed at him being played against us. How about Jace in the deck? 4 mana is a lot, but I'd be looking at 2 copies max, maybe 2 main or a 1/1 split, and he would be much more powerful in Traverse Shadow than BBE @ 4 mana. The deck is loaded with fetches and traverse, has access to discard to pave a way for him, removal to keep the board under control, and the baddest threats in the format. Untapping with a resolved Jace seems like huge game to me, well worth re-configuring the deck fairly significantly IMO. His bounce is a great tool against delve threats and stuff like Mirran Crusader that demand specific answers that we don't have many of. Just seems great.
Here's a list I've put together - haven't had a chance to try it yet, waiting for it to hit MODO tomorrow.
Noble Hierarch is the card that stands out the most I think - I got the idea from an old video series with Michael Majors. It looked good for him but that was one matchup and he drew Jace every game. One of my obvious concerns with it is the fact that it doesn't produce black - but it's great with tarmogoyf and liliana especially, enabling T2 liliana or tarmogoyf + discard/removal/stub. Dismember, TBR, Jace, AD, Dismember, Liliana, Stub, Snap, Noble, Goyf, Flayer and potentially Street wraith are all MD cards that this helps cast. Another concern is the fact that we want to cast discard on T1 a lot of the time, and there are hands where the noble is essentially a useless card (ones full of cheap black cards). Exalted isn't irrelevant and why I started with Nobles, but if the mana accel proves valuable while the lack of black is troublesome, birds is always an option as well. I like that it's a creature as Liliana protection, you can brainstorm extras away with jace, or discard with lili. It fits the theme of the deck as an individually very powerful, 1CC card that enables explosive draws. Starting with 3, as you want it early but not in multiples, and I feel comfortable cutting a fetchland with 3 extra mana sources in the deck.
1 Grim flayer as I've absolutely loved the card at 2 copies, but want to play a 1/1 split with snap for more traverse options.
1 inquisition had to go to make room for all of the new stuff - since we have nobles to cast on T1 it made some sense, and snap allows us to buyback discard spells if those are what we really need in any given game.
Couple removal slots got cut as well (these were tarfires and a dismember for me, was running 2/2/2), but again a reason I like having the 1 snap available to buyback if needed. Never really felt like this is a deck that wants to kill every single creature that hits the board - usually just use discard to take out any creatures that may cause problems, let them cast something that's easily dealt with for tempo, and then dwarf everything else with huge threats. Jace can also be used a pseudo removal spell in some situations.
Cut 1 traverse, I find that they get stranded in your hand way too often at 4 copies, without tarfire (also, tarfire was amazing in this deck).
Speaking of tarfire, cut it because the deck is very minimal on red mana. I previously had the option the fetch a stomping ground and watery grave to turn on all 4 colors, but we have breeding pool now.
TBR stays in the deck, because it's just one of the most important cards for the archetype to have success in Modern IMO. 2 maindeck, 1 side has always felt perfect to me.
2x Stubborn Denial is where I want to be in Modern, with this deck. I definitely want 4 against some decks because it's just the best card, but there are quite a few matchups where it's just completely dead and drawing multiple is very likely a loss or mulligan.
Sideboard: Izzet Staticaster, another grudge are at the front of the list among many things to consider, with Kommand and lavamancer likely the first cuts.
Lots of flexible cards that can be used in a variety of matchups, going through sideboard plans quickly in my mind I feel like it is well configured to allow us to always have relevant cards to board in for any matchup and take out the bad cards.
Last thing to touch on is the manabase - 17 lands is different and a little risky, but the nobles actually put us up on mana sources overall - not counting it strictly as a land, but adding 3 of them and cutting 1 land seems reasonable. And the list is just so tight as it is, I want to keep it full of gas.
I can see the deck needing a forest if the mana denial decks (UW in particular, Jund with fulminators) really pick up in popularity. But at the end of the day, I think it's just a weakness of the deck, and there are so many more games and matches where mana denial is irrelevant (even against these decks) and having the forest is a solid detriment. Anyway, cutting a card and adding a forest is the easiest solution if that's your concern, to stay on 17 lands and play forest isn't really something I want to do, having less than 5 shocks in this deck comes up as an issue quite often for me. Any game where you are managing your life total conservatively through the early turns can have you run in to the problem of not being able to turn on your shadows later on. There's also the corner case of having the 1 of mire and having already fetched a grave, but needing another blue source. Cutting down to 11 fetches is something I started doing a while ago and am comfortable with, but definitely not less than that.
That's a big wall of text, but I'm hoping to elicit some discussion and hear others ideas on this type of build. I love this archetype and the idea of adding a card as powerful and fun as jace to it has me really excited.
Hi everyone,
I'll be playing Traverse Shadow in Lyon this weekend, and while I have some experience with Death's Shadow decks, the format being so wide means I have never even played against half the tier 1-2 decks with it. I've locked the following decklist, very similar to Immanuel Gerschenson's list with a couple personal adjustments.
I've written baselines for my sideboard plans against some of the top decks, based on some articles and my personal understanding of the deck. If some of you guys could take the time to give me your opinion about them, it'd be awesome !
Storm (assuming they cut gifts and creatures for pieces, Empty and some interaction, adapt the plan otherwise or if they have blood moon)
-2 Decay
-1 Dismember
-2 Lili
-1 Push
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Return
+2 Brutality
+1 TBR
Not a bad looking list at all. However, based on the meta, I think a few more proactive choices would be better against the open field. Grim flayer over snap, cut the breeding pool since you dont need UU, replace with stomping ground, cut a delta for a misty (to grab the ground), cut 1 stub (lots of matchups where its useless, 3 main too many), and then 2 of push/AD/Lili for 2 tarfire and a dismember.
That build gives you maximum aggression and consistency. Don't underestimate tarfire, card is great in the meta right now, I like a 1/1 LotV b/w main and SB, she has quite a few bad matchups too. The tarfires and dismembers ensure you can always have huge threats and TBR them while still having Stub backup and whatnot. Tarfire kills a lot of ***** in the current meta, queller and mantis rider being 2 of the misses, and even against decks like tron and valakut it typically stays in post SB depending on your SB, because it can clear Sakura, go to face and help goyf race, or go to your own face and let shadow race while fixing your graveyard.
Not a bad looking list at all. However, based on the meta, I think a few more proactive choices would be better against the open field. Grim flayer over snap, cut the breeding pool since you dont need UU, replace with stomping ground, cut a delta for a misty (to grab the ground), cut 1 stub (lots of matchups where its useless, 3 main too many), and then 2 of push/AD/Lili for 2 tarfire and a dismember.
Grim flayer over snap could be a consideration, but I've found that I want to side in snap in 90% of my matches, and that threat density wasn't too much of an issue. I could see cutting a traverse for a flayer though, like Jirock in his PT Top8 deck.
Cutting the pool for a ground is extremely wrong imo though: Having 2 blue sources is critical against Tron in particular, but also against UW, because of Ghost quarter and Field of Ruins. It also allows for the snap Denial plays. Stomping ground is clearly worse, given that I'm not playing Ghor-Clan Rampager or Tarfire.
The other changes you propose are probably fine, but given last week's Toronto results I want to be ready for big mana decks of which there were plenty in the top 32, which is why I'm playing 3 stubs. I want my deck to play out more like sultai splashing red for TBR. Playing a second dismember over one of the other removal could be good, it would improve against decks like Hollow One or Grixis Shadow, but I've chosen to prepare more for decks like Humans, Affinity and Burn. It could be better to play a Jund splashing blue deck as you propose, which would allow me to also maybe play a couple terminate, but I've chosen to go the Sultai route.
That build gives you maximum aggression and consistency. Don't underestimate tarfire, card is great in the meta right now, I like a 1/1 LotV b/w main and SB, she has quite a few bad matchups too. The tarfires and dismembers ensure you can always have huge threats and TBR them while still having Stub backup and whatnot. Tarfire kills a lot of ***** in the current meta, queller and mantis rider being 2 of the misses, and even against decks like tron and valakut it typically stays in post SB depending on your SB, because it can clear Sakura, go to face and help goyf race, or go to your own face and let shadow race while fixing your graveyard.
It's true Lili's not great in the current meta, but I just want to play it for the free wins against Titan Shift, the Shadow mirror, Control decks or ETron. Tarfire would only be good against 12 of the 32 decks in the top of the standings from Toronto, which is not where I want to be.
***Currently running Immanuel's 60 cards in my Main Deck to catch the audience up contextually.***
I was toying with 1 Liliana of the Veil in the MD moving the other LotV to the SB and having 2 Grim Flayer in the MD last night. I was pleased with how smooth the deck runs with Grim Flayer out. It feels right in the sense that Grim Flayer makes you the model of consistency within the Death's Shadow archetype. However, I don't like taking a card out of the deck that wins the game by itself. I have even considered in moving Liliana completely to the sideboard and running 3 Grim Flayer. I don't know if I would be that bold to run that at any major event. I will try it at my LGS this coming Tuesday. My only problem... We have a guy that jams Bogles every damn week. *Ugh* So, that damages my use case.
Trying this list tonight; I think it has a ton of charm and was a sleeper before the reinstatement of JtMS and BBE.
tjd2191, I like this list. It feels more like Grixis DS though without doing what Grixis does best which is K Command in the MD. I am not abandoning your mindset or decklist. I think I will save it for when everyone is jamming BBE and JtMS and then I will come in hot and heavy with this deck. It is very low to the ground and I did like the reach. So, I think your innovations of this archetype may be on to something.
Do you all think this will be the go to shadow build now that Jace is unbanned? I currently have Grixis built, but was thinking about picking up some goyfs and lilis after seeing the B/R list monday.
Do you all think this will be the go to shadow build now that Jace is unbanned? I currently have Grixis built, but was thinking about picking up some goyfs and lilis after seeing the B/R list monday.
Probably. Whether it's good enough to compete in the new metagame remains to be seen though.
Hmm, 4 Bloodbraid Elf and 4 Kolaghan's Command in Jund Shadow surprisingly 5-0'd a league: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/944882#paper
He added one land, up to 19 lands. I'd still think the mana would be a problem quite often. The cascades looks quite inconsistent, or at least tricky, like cascading into Death's Shadow when you're at the wrong life total, or cascading into traverse when you don't have delirium.
Travers Shadow will also be worse imo. Control is always good vs the deck and Jace only makes control better. I dont know if BBE will have an impact on Traverse Shadow though.
Saw a list on someone's stream today (I'm sorry--I can't remember who it was, but I'll post back if I find out) that was running 3-4 Blood Braid Elf and 2 Kolaghan's Command maindeck. To hedge against bad cascades, the 2 Temur Battle Rages and 4Stubborn Denials sat in the board. It looked very cool. That way you can just switch out whole packages to shift from the grindy/value plan of BBE to a more prototypical Shadow plan with Stubs against unfair decks. I really want to try this out.
Honestly if Jace really takes off and we see enough blue based decks to warrant sideboard slots, Choke in the board with discard to clear the way will net enough free wins combined with our bad but not unwinnable game 1s that I am not too worried about Blue based control pushing us out of viability. Back when Twin was a thing choke was a card you could run that would shore up your blue matchups immensely. I'm more concerned with how we beat BBE Jund but honestly it's too early to say. Tomorrow night I'm gonna board in some chokes, lean on lingering souls for the Jund matchup and just run what I've been running for the past few weeks until we have an idea of what we really need to be adjusting for.
Honestly if Jace really takes off and we see enough blue based decks to warrant sideboard slots, Choke in the board with discard to clear the way will net enough free wins combined with our bad but not unwinnable game 1s that I am not too worried about Blue based control pushing us out of viability. Back when Twin was a thing choke was a card you could run that would shore up your blue matchups immensely. I'm more concerned with how we beat BBE Jund but honestly it's too early to say. Tomorrow night I'm gonna board in some chokes, lean on lingering souls for the Jund matchup and just run what I've been running for the past few weeks until we have an idea of what we really need to be adjusting for.
Considering the amount of Glacial Fortresses, Seachrome Coasts and Celestial Colonnades in UW decks these days, I think you're massively overrating Choke's effectiveness.
Yes, the mana works. We cast Jace fairly easily. Remember, this is a 48 card deck. Those cantrips hit land drops, and we have Traverse to find more. And Manamorphose gets you UU in a pinch, even through Field of Ruin activations.
Forcing the opponent to dump resources defending against the typical Shadow plan A sets up for Jace to take over the game.
UW is still miserable because they have so much mana denial.
Hazoret, the Jace Killer has been great at killing opposing Jaces on boards the opponent thought seemed safe. I think I want to move one Jace to the SB for a MD Hazzy since she's more generally good.
I've played against a lot of burn, humans, and the like, and Jace was miserable there. Might just be a SB card.
Delay has overperformed. I've beaten burn a couple of times at 3 or less life with 1-2 of their spells on suspend (not Rift Bolt). It's also been clutch against BTL scapeshift.
Traverse for Lavaman keeps single-handedly winning games against stuff like Humans.
Fulminators are supposed to keep control decks off Jace/Cryptic/Verdict mana and take care of manlands. They've been medium in that role so far.
Artifact decks are at low right now because of BBE + K Command, and Jace also happens to beat lantern through their lock. Cut those Grudges for something else. GY hate looks good to me right now because of the RB Hollow One deck.
Honestly if Jace really takes off and we see enough blue based decks to warrant sideboard slots, Choke in the board with discard to clear the way will net enough free wins combined with our bad but not unwinnable game 1s that I am not too worried about Blue based control pushing us out of viability. Back when Twin was a thing choke was a card you could run that would shore up your blue matchups immensely. I'm more concerned with how we beat BBE Jund but honestly it's too early to say. Tomorrow night I'm gonna board in some chokes, lean on lingering souls for the Jund matchup and just run what I've been running for the past few weeks until we have an idea of what we really need to be adjusting for.
Considering the amount of Glacial Fortresses, Seachrome Coasts and Celestial Colonnades in UW decks these days, I think you're massively overrating Choke's effectiveness.
Honestly if Jace really takes off and we see enough blue based decks to warrant sideboard slots, Choke in the board with discard to clear the way will net enough free wins combined with our bad but not unwinnable game 1s that I am not too worried about Blue based control pushing us out of viability. Back when Twin was a thing choke was a card you could run that would shore up your blue matchups immensely. I'm more concerned with how we beat BBE Jund but honestly it's too early to say. Tomorrow night I'm gonna board in some chokes, lean on lingering souls for the Jund matchup and just run what I've been running for the past few weeks until we have an idea of what we really need to be adjusting for.
Considering the amount of Glacial Fortresses, Seachrome Coasts and Celestial Colonnades in UW decks these days, I think you're massively overrating Choke's effectiveness.
The most recent Jeskai list from the top 8 at Lyon ran 6 non island blue sources in 24 lands. For a deck running a number of double blue casting cost spells, they’re more often going to lose to choke than just draw multiple sulfur falls and be able to fetch around choke while being able to play their spells. Choke absolutely swings the matchup enough to be worth 1 or 2 sideboard slots IMo
EDIT: I don’t know what happened with the quote, my apologies
I did pretty well in Lyon, but don't remember enough of the games for a full report.
R1 against UR Pyro 2-0: French guy, the matchup is just great and he cannot do much. I kill his things, discard all his relevant card and kill hime with big monsters.
R2 against Affinity 0-2: Another frenchie who did a couple mistake but it turns out T1 Plating is still pretty good. G2 I flood and manage to do some sequencing mistakes which cut my outs in half, but I draw a couple blanks anyway.
R3 against Mardu Pyro 2-0: The guy made some mistakes in the games, sideboarded very wrong and complained in the end. Turns out Wear//Tear isn't good against our deck.
R4 against Infect 2-0: He didn't draw any Inkmoth Nexus and without this card the matchup is pretty unwinnable for him.
R5 against Etron 2-0: G1 I play a discard spell only to see 2 Chalices, a Relic, GQ, Mine, and 2 creatures. I'm on the play and take a chalice, hoping to draw an answer to the second one. He draws a temple, plays it and the relic. I play a Shadow and pass with a blue up. He draws a second temple, plays it and the chalice. I draw a tarmogoyf to go with my DS and kill him on turn 4 with a battle rage.
G2 I keep a one lander with street wraith, play a discard spell and see 2 chalices, 1 Dismember, 0 temples and some lands and a creature that I select. I leave both chalices because I have a Maelstrom Pulse and a Grudge in hand. He draws 2 temples but has no pressure while I can't find lands. on turn 4 he plays the second chalice on 2. I draw 2 lands the following turn and Pulse the Chalice, he draws an Endbringer but my triple Death's Shadow hand kills him anyway.
R6 against Tron 2-0: I misscount his lands G1 and give him the out of drawing the last tron piece on the last turn by taking the wrong card with a Thoughtseize, but even if I had played right and taken the Ugin with Thoughtseize the tron piece was still 90% to win him the game there. G2 is uneventful, he doen't have green mana for Thragdaddy and Stirrings and can't get to Tron.
R7 against Shuhei Nakamura on Jeskai Tempo 2-1: An interesting incident happened there. I won G1 just by playing a big Shadow while I knew he had no Burn or answers to DS in hand. G2 I sideboarded wrong thinking he was on a more controlling build and died to snapcaster bolts with 2 D-Stroke in hand. G3 I'm fairly ahead and at some point I cycle a Street wraith in order to get delirium and play Traverse the Ulvenwald. While I'm searching my library, a friend of mine says us to wait and calls a Judge: it turns out I didn't draw with the Wraith and upon learning that Shuhei laughs immediately. The Judge fixes the situation, we both get warnings and I win the game with the card drawn. At the end of the game, the Judge asks Shuhei Nakamura to come with him and my friends tell me he could get DQ'd because his reaction with the judge call seemed to show he was aware of me not drawing the card and just didn't tell me even though he should have. He has a long discussion with the Head Judge and ends up not being DQ'd.
R8 against Jeskai Breach 2-1: He left the combo in even though it's pretty bad against me, and I take down both postboard games with most of my removal out.
7-1 and happy so far, but I have to keep focusing on each game as best as I can.
R9 against Grixis Shadow 2-1 despite me cracking my Bauble during main phase like a noob when we're in Topdeck war.
R10 against the Mirror 1-2: In G3 my opponents discard my Stubs and Discard and Traverses for a land on turn 3: I think about what I can do against the obviously upcoming Lili, Bauble myself and see a thoughtseize on top, and choose not to play any creature thinking he might want to wait for me to have a board. He doesn't and wins with Lili active for more than 10 turns and me not finding any of my 3 answers.
R11 against Storm 2-0. Easy win G1, and he's mana screwed during G2.
R12 against Bogles 2-0 through T1 Leyline G1 because he only had a Kor. G2 He doesn't have a Leyline and Lili crushed him.
R13 against Burn 2-1 thanks to my opponent letting me resolve my Street wraith cycling which let me draw the Stubborn Denial that countered the Helix he had to cast to survive.
R14 against Abzan Aggro (Time Walk Feature Match, it's at the end of the round) 2-1: I'll let you see all my punts live on Twitch, I did a bunch of them.
R15 against Mardu Pyro 2-0: The guy mulled to 4 G2 and wasn't happy about it :/
I end up 10th on breakers, with a PT invite and airfare plus a thousand bucks. Super stoked with this at my 2nd GP ever, and hope I can keep being this lucky in the future and step my game up.
Funny, I've been testing with a very similar list. I didn't play the 4th color though, that was a little too ambitious for me. (I played a 3rd jace so I could see him enough to know if he's good). The 4th color might be possible though.
But I can confirm that manamorphose is gas though.
Lastly, this deck also has felt like the most powerful jace shell I have played so far. Which seems silly. But if he is just a finisher in a control deck, he has only felt okay. He's a powerful card, sure. But he won't ever flip a board state, he really "only" gains more card advantage or finishes your opponent off if you're already ahead.
Death's Shadow doesn't often get into board states in which it's behind, it usually loses because of its lack of card advantage. Jace is yet another threat for our opponent to handle as it will draw us 3 cards a turn with 15 shuffle effects.
The BBE version feels insane in a grind in my testing though. That deck plays so many "copies" of BBE because of the traverses and kcommands. But that deck isn't great against combo and big mana because it has so little disruption.
Yeah, Jace is been pretty good in this shell for me. Except for all the times I side him out. But rip their hand to pieces, stick a threat and protect it, force them to flail to answer it, then stick a Jace to clean up has been just gas.
I have a 3 color Sultai list on my MTGO account, but I still haven't tried it. The red SB cards are just too good. Plus, of course, TBR.
It's hard to say how many we want without seeing how things shake out. But 2-3 seems like a good start. There's another world where we become a BBE deck, cutting the Stubs altogether, but I don't think we would have enough card advantage to really stand up to the the Jace decks and other BBE decks and make that worthwhile.
Absolutely. I mentioned this in an edit to my original post about the unbans.
Possibly, but IoK will also be very good against many of the noninteractive decks that rise up to beat the Jace decks before they get going. IoK also still protects our threats - we will have to kill them before they get established, and taking a key removal spell so our Goyfs and Shadows can get to work is a large part of that.
My instinct here is no. Discard is still good against these decks, and while we may want Thoughtseize more IoK is still excellent. We will need to prioritize taking the 4 drops with Thoughtseizes because they can't be answered cleanly otherwise, but interacting in the early turns is still essential.
Jace decks will have Paths, Mana Leaks, Spreading Seas, Snapcaster Mages, Logic Knots, and a whole host of other things that we want to hit. BBE decks have their own discard, Decay, Terminate, Dark Confidant, Liliana; literally every card in their deck but Bloodbraid. IoK doesn't take the curve-topping finisher, but it still hits the majority of the decks.
To put it another way, Jace coming down when we are behind or at parity is clearly bad, but if the first meaningful thing they do is tap out on turn 4 we are probably way ahead, even if their 4 drop is super high powered.
I see a lot of discussion on how Jace affects the deck, but all of it aimed at him being played against us. How about Jace in the deck? 4 mana is a lot, but I'd be looking at 2 copies max, maybe 2 main or a 1/1 split, and he would be much more powerful in Traverse Shadow than BBE @ 4 mana. The deck is loaded with fetches and traverse, has access to discard to pave a way for him, removal to keep the board under control, and the baddest threats in the format. Untapping with a resolved Jace seems like huge game to me, well worth re-configuring the deck fairly significantly IMO. His bounce is a great tool against delve threats and stuff like Mirran Crusader that demand specific answers that we don't have many of. Just seems great.
Here's a list I've put together - haven't had a chance to try it yet, waiting for it to hit MODO tomorrow.
4x Polluted Delta
4x verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
Creatures (17)
4x Street Wraith
4x Death's Shadow
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Snapcaster Mage
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Grim Flayer
4x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Stubborn Denial
3x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Temur Battle Rage
3x Traverse the Ulvenwald
Artifacts (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Temur Battle Rage
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Stubborn Denial
1x Fatal Push
2x Collective Brutality
Noble Hierarch is the card that stands out the most I think - I got the idea from an old video series with Michael Majors. It looked good for him but that was one matchup and he drew Jace every game. One of my obvious concerns with it is the fact that it doesn't produce black - but it's great with tarmogoyf and liliana especially, enabling T2 liliana or tarmogoyf + discard/removal/stub. Dismember, TBR, Jace, AD, Dismember, Liliana, Stub, Snap, Noble, Goyf, Flayer and potentially Street wraith are all MD cards that this helps cast. Another concern is the fact that we want to cast discard on T1 a lot of the time, and there are hands where the noble is essentially a useless card (ones full of cheap black cards). Exalted isn't irrelevant and why I started with Nobles, but if the mana accel proves valuable while the lack of black is troublesome, birds is always an option as well. I like that it's a creature as Liliana protection, you can brainstorm extras away with jace, or discard with lili. It fits the theme of the deck as an individually very powerful, 1CC card that enables explosive draws. Starting with 3, as you want it early but not in multiples, and I feel comfortable cutting a fetchland with 3 extra mana sources in the deck.
1 Grim flayer as I've absolutely loved the card at 2 copies, but want to play a 1/1 split with snap for more traverse options.
1 inquisition had to go to make room for all of the new stuff - since we have nobles to cast on T1 it made some sense, and snap allows us to buyback discard spells if those are what we really need in any given game.
Couple removal slots got cut as well (these were tarfires and a dismember for me, was running 2/2/2), but again a reason I like having the 1 snap available to buyback if needed. Never really felt like this is a deck that wants to kill every single creature that hits the board - usually just use discard to take out any creatures that may cause problems, let them cast something that's easily dealt with for tempo, and then dwarf everything else with huge threats. Jace can also be used a pseudo removal spell in some situations.
Cut 1 traverse, I find that they get stranded in your hand way too often at 4 copies, without tarfire (also, tarfire was amazing in this deck).
Speaking of tarfire, cut it because the deck is very minimal on red mana. I previously had the option the fetch a stomping ground and watery grave to turn on all 4 colors, but we have breeding pool now.
TBR stays in the deck, because it's just one of the most important cards for the archetype to have success in Modern IMO. 2 maindeck, 1 side has always felt perfect to me.
2x Stubborn Denial is where I want to be in Modern, with this deck. I definitely want 4 against some decks because it's just the best card, but there are quite a few matchups where it's just completely dead and drawing multiple is very likely a loss or mulligan.
Sideboard: Izzet Staticaster, another grudge are at the front of the list among many things to consider, with Kommand and lavamancer likely the first cuts.
Lots of flexible cards that can be used in a variety of matchups, going through sideboard plans quickly in my mind I feel like it is well configured to allow us to always have relevant cards to board in for any matchup and take out the bad cards.
Last thing to touch on is the manabase - 17 lands is different and a little risky, but the nobles actually put us up on mana sources overall - not counting it strictly as a land, but adding 3 of them and cutting 1 land seems reasonable. And the list is just so tight as it is, I want to keep it full of gas.
I can see the deck needing a forest if the mana denial decks (UW in particular, Jund with fulminators) really pick up in popularity. But at the end of the day, I think it's just a weakness of the deck, and there are so many more games and matches where mana denial is irrelevant (even against these decks) and having the forest is a solid detriment. Anyway, cutting a card and adding a forest is the easiest solution if that's your concern, to stay on 17 lands and play forest isn't really something I want to do, having less than 5 shocks in this deck comes up as an issue quite often for me. Any game where you are managing your life total conservatively through the early turns can have you run in to the problem of not being able to turn on your shadows later on. There's also the corner case of having the 1 of mire and having already fetched a grave, but needing another blue source. Cutting down to 11 fetches is something I started doing a while ago and am comfortable with, but definitely not less than that.
That's a big wall of text, but I'm hoping to elicit some discussion and hear others ideas on this type of build. I love this archetype and the idea of adding a card as powerful and fun as jace to it has me really excited.
I'll be playing Traverse Shadow in Lyon this weekend, and while I have some experience with Death's Shadow decks, the format being so wide means I have never even played against half the tier 1-2 decks with it. I've locked the following decklist, very similar to Immanuel Gerschenson's list with a couple personal adjustments.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Marsh Flats
1 Hostage Taker
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Fatal Push
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Collective Brutality
1 Radiant Flames
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Burn :
-1 Seize
-4 Wraith
-1 Dismember
+1 Denial
+1 Fulmi
+2 Brutality
+1 TBR
+1 Push
Be wary of Deflecting Palm
5C Humans
OTP :
-3 Denial
-4 Wraith
-2 Seize
+1 Push
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Pulse
+1 Return
+1 Flames
+1 Hostage Taker
+1 TBR
+2 Brutality
OTD :
-3 Denial
-2 Lili
-2 Wraith
-2 Seize
Fetch Blood Crypt when in doubt
Affinity
-2 Lili
-2 Street Wraith
-1 Stubborn
-2 Thoughtseize
+ 2 Grudge
+1 Push
+1 Return
+1 TBR
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Radiant Flames
OTD -1 Seize -1 Denial +1 Pulse +1 Brutality (in addition to the above plan)
Fetch Blood Crypt when in doubt
Tron
-3 Push
-1 Dismember
-1 Traverse
-1 Decay
-2 Lili
+1 Denial
+2 D-Stroke
+2 Grudge
+1 Pulse
+1 Fulmi
+1 Hostage Taker
Fetch UU.
Eldrazi tron
-1 Denial
-1 Traverse
-2 Inqui
-1 Push
-1 Decay
+2 Grudge
+2 Stroke
+1 Fulmi
+1 Pulse
Grixis Shadow :
-1 Push
-1 Denial/Marsh Flats
-2 TBR
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Hostage Taker
+1 Fulminator Mage
Crack Bauble during their upkeep in the late game
Traverse Shadow
-2 TBR
-2 Denial
-1 Marsh Flats/Denial
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Hostage Taker
+1 Fulminator Mage
+1 Push
Crack Bauble during their upkeep in the late game
Jeskai Control
-2 Fatal Push
-1 Dismember
-2 TBR
-1 Marsh Flats
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Fulminator Mage
+1 Disdainful Stroke
+2 Collective Brutality
Jeskai Queller
-1 Dismember
-1 Push
-1 Marsh Flats
-2 TBR
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Lili Tlh
+1 Fulmi
+2 Collective brutality
UW Control
-2 TBR
-2 Push
-1 Marsh Flats
-1 Decay
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Lili Tlh
+1 Fulmi
+2 Collective brutality
+2 Disdainful Stroke
UR Madcap Moon (assuming they board out Emperion, otherwise pulse/grudge could be boarded in)
-2 TBR
-3 Push
-1 Dismember
-1 Marsh Flats
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Lili Tlh
+1 Fulmi
+2 Collective brutality
+2 Disdainful Stroke
UR Pyromancer/Thing (no moon)
-2 TBR
-1 Dismember
-1 Marsh Flats
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Fulminator Mage
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Pulse
Storm (assuming they cut gifts and creatures for pieces, Empty and some interaction, adapt the plan otherwise or if they have blood moon)
-2 Decay
-1 Dismember
-2 Lili
-1 Push
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Return
+2 Brutality
+1 TBR
Dredge
-2 Lili
-1 Dismember
-1 Decay
-3 Push
+1 TBR
+1 Radiant Flames
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Stubborn Denial
+2 Disdainful Stroke
+1 Fulminator Mage
Mardu Pyro
-2 Lili
-1 Push
-1 Denial
+1 Radiant Flames
+1 Return
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Pulse
BR Hollow One
-2 Lili
-3 Push
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 TBR
+2 Grudge
Titan Shift
-3 Push
-2 Decay
-1 Dismember
+1 Fulmi
+1 Stubborn
+2 D-Stroke
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 TBR
BG Midrange/Abzan
-2 TBR
-3 Denial
+1 Hostage Taker
+1 Fulmi
+1 Push
+1 Lili tlh
+1 Pulse
Lili is still too good against Abzan in case they don’t draw Lingering Souls, but a K-return might be better.
Bogles
+1 Return
+1 Pulse
+1 Flames
+1 Stubborn
-1 Dismember
-3 Push
Maybe sweepers are too slow on the draw.
https://deadonboardmtg.com/2017/11/08/the-ultimate-deaths-shadow-primer-and-tournament/
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/magnus-lantto/the-ultimate-deaths-shadow-matchup-guide
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/immanuel-gerschenson/traversing-at-pro-tour-rix
http://www.topdeckproductions.com/2018/01/31/traverse-deaths-shadow-primer/
As well as a bunch of Grixis Shadow article before I played this one locally.
That build gives you maximum aggression and consistency. Don't underestimate tarfire, card is great in the meta right now, I like a 1/1 LotV b/w main and SB, she has quite a few bad matchups too. The tarfires and dismembers ensure you can always have huge threats and TBR them while still having Stub backup and whatnot. Tarfire kills a lot of ***** in the current meta, queller and mantis rider being 2 of the misses, and even against decks like tron and valakut it typically stays in post SB depending on your SB, because it can clear Sakura, go to face and help goyf race, or go to your own face and let shadow race while fixing your graveyard.
Grim flayer over snap could be a consideration, but I've found that I want to side in snap in 90% of my matches, and that threat density wasn't too much of an issue. I could see cutting a traverse for a flayer though, like Jirock in his PT Top8 deck.
Cutting the pool for a ground is extremely wrong imo though: Having 2 blue sources is critical against Tron in particular, but also against UW, because of Ghost quarter and Field of Ruins. It also allows for the snap Denial plays. Stomping ground is clearly worse, given that I'm not playing Ghor-Clan Rampager or Tarfire.
The other changes you propose are probably fine, but given last week's Toronto results I want to be ready for big mana decks of which there were plenty in the top 32, which is why I'm playing 3 stubs. I want my deck to play out more like sultai splashing red for TBR. Playing a second dismember over one of the other removal could be good, it would improve against decks like Hollow One or Grixis Shadow, but I've chosen to prepare more for decks like Humans, Affinity and Burn. It could be better to play a Jund splashing blue deck as you propose, which would allow me to also maybe play a couple terminate, but I've chosen to go the Sultai route.
It's true Lili's not great in the current meta, but I just want to play it for the free wins against Titan Shift, the Shadow mirror, Control decks or ETron. Tarfire would only be good against 12 of the 32 decks in the top of the standings from Toronto, which is not where I want to be.
I was toying with 1 Liliana of the Veil in the MD moving the other LotV to the SB and having 2 Grim Flayer in the MD last night. I was pleased with how smooth the deck runs with Grim Flayer out. It feels right in the sense that Grim Flayer makes you the model of consistency within the Death's Shadow archetype. However, I don't like taking a card out of the deck that wins the game by itself. I have even considered in moving Liliana completely to the sideboard and running 3 Grim Flayer. I don't know if I would be that bold to run that at any major event. I will try it at my LGS this coming Tuesday. My only problem... We have a guy that jams Bogles every damn week. *Ugh* So, that damages my use case.
tjd2191, I like this list. It feels more like Grixis DS though without doing what Grixis does best which is K Command in the MD. I am not abandoning your mindset or decklist. I think I will save it for when everyone is jamming BBE and JtMS and then I will come in hot and heavy with this deck. It is very low to the ground and I did like the reach. So, I think your innovations of this archetype may be on to something.
Probably. Whether it's good enough to compete in the new metagame remains to be seen though.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/944882#paper
He added one land, up to 19 lands. I'd still think the mana would be a problem quite often. The cascades looks quite inconsistent, or at least tricky, like cascading into Death's Shadow when you're at the wrong life total, or cascading into traverse when you don't have delirium.
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dreadbore
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (8)
4 Fatal Push
4 Kolaghan's Command
1 Tarfire
4 Mishra's Bauble
Enchantment (2)
2 Seal of Fire
Land (19)
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blood Moon
4 Collective Brutality
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Minister of Pain
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Yixlid Jailer
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Considering the amount of Glacial Fortresses, Seachrome Coasts and Celestial Colonnades in UW decks these days, I think you're massively overrating Choke's effectiveness.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Manamorphose
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
3 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Hazoret, the Fervent
1 Hostage Taker
1 Radiant Flames
1 Dreadbore
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Delay
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
Quick notes:
The most recent Jeskai list from the top 8 at Lyon ran 6 non island blue sources in 24 lands. For a deck running a number of double blue casting cost spells, they’re more often going to lose to choke than just draw multiple sulfur falls and be able to fetch around choke while being able to play their spells. Choke absolutely swings the matchup enough to be worth 1 or 2 sideboard slots IMo
EDIT: I don’t know what happened with the quote, my apologies
R1 against UR Pyro 2-0: French guy, the matchup is just great and he cannot do much. I kill his things, discard all his relevant card and kill hime with big monsters.
R2 against Affinity 0-2: Another frenchie who did a couple mistake but it turns out T1 Plating is still pretty good. G2 I flood and manage to do some sequencing mistakes which cut my outs in half, but I draw a couple blanks anyway.
R3 against Mardu Pyro 2-0: The guy made some mistakes in the games, sideboarded very wrong and complained in the end. Turns out Wear//Tear isn't good against our deck.
R4 against Infect 2-0: He didn't draw any Inkmoth Nexus and without this card the matchup is pretty unwinnable for him.
R5 against Etron 2-0: G1 I play a discard spell only to see 2 Chalices, a Relic, GQ, Mine, and 2 creatures. I'm on the play and take a chalice, hoping to draw an answer to the second one. He draws a temple, plays it and the relic. I play a Shadow and pass with a blue up. He draws a second temple, plays it and the chalice. I draw a tarmogoyf to go with my DS and kill him on turn 4 with a battle rage.
G2 I keep a one lander with street wraith, play a discard spell and see 2 chalices, 1 Dismember, 0 temples and some lands and a creature that I select. I leave both chalices because I have a Maelstrom Pulse and a Grudge in hand. He draws 2 temples but has no pressure while I can't find lands. on turn 4 he plays the second chalice on 2. I draw 2 lands the following turn and Pulse the Chalice, he draws an Endbringer but my triple Death's Shadow hand kills him anyway.
R6 against Tron 2-0: I misscount his lands G1 and give him the out of drawing the last tron piece on the last turn by taking the wrong card with a Thoughtseize, but even if I had played right and taken the Ugin with Thoughtseize the tron piece was still 90% to win him the game there. G2 is uneventful, he doen't have green mana for Thragdaddy and Stirrings and can't get to Tron.
R7 against Shuhei Nakamura on Jeskai Tempo 2-1: An interesting incident happened there. I won G1 just by playing a big Shadow while I knew he had no Burn or answers to DS in hand. G2 I sideboarded wrong thinking he was on a more controlling build and died to snapcaster bolts with 2 D-Stroke in hand. G3 I'm fairly ahead and at some point I cycle a Street wraith in order to get delirium and play Traverse the Ulvenwald. While I'm searching my library, a friend of mine says us to wait and calls a Judge: it turns out I didn't draw with the Wraith and upon learning that Shuhei laughs immediately. The Judge fixes the situation, we both get warnings and I win the game with the card drawn. At the end of the game, the Judge asks Shuhei Nakamura to come with him and my friends tell me he could get DQ'd because his reaction with the judge call seemed to show he was aware of me not drawing the card and just didn't tell me even though he should have. He has a long discussion with the Head Judge and ends up not being DQ'd.
R8 against Jeskai Breach 2-1: He left the combo in even though it's pretty bad against me, and I take down both postboard games with most of my removal out.
7-1 and happy so far, but I have to keep focusing on each game as best as I can.
R10 against the Mirror 1-2: In G3 my opponents discard my Stubs and Discard and Traverses for a land on turn 3: I think about what I can do against the obviously upcoming Lili, Bauble myself and see a thoughtseize on top, and choose not to play any creature thinking he might want to wait for me to have a board. He doesn't and wins with Lili active for more than 10 turns and me not finding any of my 3 answers.
R11 against Storm 2-0. Easy win G1, and he's mana screwed during G2.
R12 against Bogles 2-0 through T1 Leyline G1 because he only had a Kor. G2 He doesn't have a Leyline and Lili crushed him.
R13 against Burn 2-1 thanks to my opponent letting me resolve my Street wraith cycling which let me draw the Stubborn Denial that countered the Helix he had to cast to survive.
R14 against Abzan Aggro (Time Walk Feature Match, it's at the end of the round) 2-1: I'll let you see all my punts live on Twitch, I did a bunch of them.
R15 against Mardu Pyro 2-0: The guy mulled to 4 G2 and wasn't happy about it :/
I end up 10th on breakers, with a PT invite and airfare plus a thousand bucks. Super stoked with this at my 2nd GP ever, and hope I can keep being this lucky in the future and step my game up.
But I can confirm that manamorphose is gas though.
Lastly, this deck also has felt like the most powerful jace shell I have played so far. Which seems silly. But if he is just a finisher in a control deck, he has only felt okay. He's a powerful card, sure. But he won't ever flip a board state, he really "only" gains more card advantage or finishes your opponent off if you're already ahead.
Death's Shadow doesn't often get into board states in which it's behind, it usually loses because of its lack of card advantage. Jace is yet another threat for our opponent to handle as it will draw us 3 cards a turn with 15 shuffle effects.
The BBE version feels insane in a grind in my testing though. That deck plays so many "copies" of BBE because of the traverses and kcommands. But that deck isn't great against combo and big mana because it has so little disruption.
I have a 3 color Sultai list on my MTGO account, but I still haven't tried it. The red SB cards are just too good. Plus, of course, TBR.