Sorry for stepping off topic a little, but I need help building my deck:
So, I just recently got back into playing Modern thanks to the BBE unban (I absolutelly always loved Jund, and I kind of stepped off from Modern for sometime and the BBE unban seemed good enough reason to swipe off the dirt of my goyfs and bobs!)
One of my favorite cards on my jund has always been Huntmaster of the Fells, and I always used to run 2x of them on my Deck. (It was by far one of the most effective cards in my local meta, as we have A TON of burn decks, a couple merfolks, and overall midrange, grindy decks. It was always at the very worse bringing me 2 for 1's at the late game, saving me from lethals and more often than not, winning single-handedly.)
Now, with BBE's unban, I set my Huntmasters aside and attempted running a 4x BBE build / 25 lands similar to Reid Duke's with some minor modifications, I went 2-2 in last sunday's event. Having lost to Burn and Merfolk while winning vs. Death's Shadow and a veryyyyy narrow win vs. Jeskai Control (That honestly, was just achieved through luck mostly.)
And then this wednesday I played with a "kinda weird" list by running 4x BBE's and 1x Huntmaster main. HUntmaster saved me once, but I found that running only 1x of it makes it too rare to see it. All the while, BBE's seem too good a card to run less than 4x as everyone seems to be recommending. To be honest, with the matchups I've been facing, sometimes I'm finding myself wishing my BBE's were huntmasters. (Even though I reckon BBE is just amazing and usually hits like a truck when I get it. Just not feeling as "safe" as Huntmaster with it, specially when there are some rare moments where my BBE's turned into sad 4 mana - 3/2 haste cards. Whereas my Huntmaster I could always count on its vallue.)
So, my question is:
If I were to run more than 1x Huntmaster nowadays, what should I do ? I'm really wanting to attempt 2x Hunts again.
4x BBE + 2 Hunts is too crazy for a 25 mana deck? (I'm only running 7x 3 mana drops: 3x Oldlili 1x newlili 1x pulse 2x kolaghans)
3x BBE + 2 Hunts is not worth it as BBE is amazing?
(Once again, take into consideration that my shop's meta is very intense in Burn and Grind decks.)
(Oh, and i'm already running Kitchen Finks on my sideboard. But not in main. I've considered using it to try to replace Huntmaster's "job" but there are too many Path to Exiles running around at the moment at the local meta (lots of Abzan and Jeskai/UW variations, plus while he's good at stabilizing my health, I dont feel like he is as flexible as HUntmaster, which can take over games sometimes and also deal tons of damage if it flips while killing off small bodies like enemy merfolks or goblins.)
Obs: Another little thing I'm a little conflicted over is how many discards should I run now with BBE's entrance. I kind of missed running 6/7 discards as having a IOK or Seize in your opening hand is always amazing. But at the same time, I can see how a BBE into Discard is not so great. I'd ask for recommendations on that, but I can tell everyone is still a bit conflicted on that regard aswell. Jund is still getting balanced out between "how much we want to work around BBE" and "how much we want to keep the formula that always works"
-When the opponent had 1 land in play on turn 3, why not play the fulminator mage and destroy that land?
If you're talking about the first match, the land was a fetchland. He wouldn't have gotten a good opportunity to get rid of the land within that turn cycle so took a more proactive path.
My only concern is that this could still be a rough sketch of an early build.
If results come flowing in maybe I'll conceede to the idea of it. I'm also wondering if combo players decide to just meta against that fact.
Against Storm in particular, discard is nice but it really doesn't stop them from doing their thing. I generally use it as more of a tempo play then anything. Scavenging Ooze is about the only card that sort of close the door on game 1
After game 1, there's plenty of discard if you also include Collective Brutality.
I don't think Jund is aggressive enough to be able to afford to extend the opponent's clock. Grove of the Burnwillows fits Tron and Living End because once they've successfully done their thing/get rolling it usually doesn't matter if the opponent has gained a few points of life, especially with Tron. I feel like without Punishing Fire there's no reason to include Grove. Unless we "Jund them out", a lot of games are going to come down to the wire and even needing one extra point of damage could spell our doom. That's my take on it at least.
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How is everyone feeling about Reid duke sticking with 4 iok mainboard and 2 thoughtseize in the side?
Doesn't this seem loose? I know Reid's one of the best players in the world...but I'm having trouble getting on board with this one.
Some people on Facebook are saying it's Reid so he's probably right. How's everyone else feeling about it?
Reid said that his current version is a rough draft and he’ll make changes to it after playtesting. It’s also hard to predict the meta and see how many Burn/aggro/midrange decks there will be compared to control/combo.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I've been liking Display of Dominance lately as a 1 of in the SB. It blows up Azcanta and Jace at instant for 2 mana, also hits Bitterblossom, both Lilianas, Spreading Seas (can also fizzle this one) Detention Sphere, protects from Fatal Push, Decay, Pulse, Dismember, Kolaghan's Command, and Slaughter Pact,
I'd like to get some people's advice on tuning my Jund list for my local meta, apologies for what's probably gonna be a pretty long post. I went to modern last night and finished 2-2. Lost round 1 against mono-U taking turns in 3 games. Game 3 I got him down to 2 life but he was able to combo off and win, oh well. Round 2 I lost pretty badly to an Esper tempo deck running Geist and Shizo, Death's Storehouse and Lingering Souls. Round 3 I won against burn on the back of scavenging ooze, and round 4 I won against elves (grim lavamancer is so good against that deck). I was running Reid Duke's CFB list as a starting point. Here is the decklist for reference.
I made a single change to add 1 more Nihil Spellbomb to the sideboard and took out the 3rd Ancient Grudge, the main deck was the same.
Anywho, after the quick burn round I looked around the room and noted what everyone was playing. Here is the list that I compiled. Most of these people are regulars so I expect to see most of these decks on the same weekly basis: Mono-U Turns, U/B Turns, U/R Delver w/ Jace, 3x Grixis Control, Naya (BBE, Resto, Knight of the Reliquary), 2x Mono-G Tron, Storm, Living End, 2x Esper Control, 2x Jund, Lantern, 2x Burn, U/B Control, B/G Midrange (Rock), Counters Company, Sultai Midrange, 2x Eldrazi Tron.
With those decks in mind, I wanted to take Reid Duke's list and make some minor tweaks. Here were the tweaks that I was thinking; I'd be happy to hear your guys' opinions:
For the creature base, it seems like having 3 Scavenging Oozes is worth it, as it acts as GY hate against snapcaster and living end, lifegain against burn and small creature decks. On the other hand, it doesn't match well against the Turns decks, Tron, and Eldrazi Tron, and against the control decks it almost never lives more than 1 turn (either getting Push'd or Bolted), so at times it feels like a 3-drop before it just ends up dying. It could be I don't know how to use scavenging ooze very well; it seems like most of time it eats up a removal spell at times that would've been used on a goyf or bob.
I felt that the games where I had more discard I was in better shape, which makes me want more discard in the main than the 4 IoK. I'm thinking from the list to cut 1 LtLH, keep 2 KCommands in, put 1 terminate in the side to make room for I'm thinking a collective brutality and a thoughtseize. I also thought about having 3 KCommands but I didn't want my curve to be too high.
I personally liked 25 lands and will probably want to keep with that. I think I want to replace one of the Bloodstained Mires with a Wooded Foothills, as there were times where I kept seeing Bloodstained Mires and really wanted to get a Forest to preserve life total. I'm going to keep with 2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 mountain for my basic lands, as I didn't see a single Blood Moon in my local meta and I know the Grixis Control decks run Field of Ruin.
With the amount of control, I wanted to fit a Thrun in the sideboard. Since I put in a thoughtseize in the main, that frees up a space to put a Thrun.
With these changes, here is the list I'm thinking of now.
Not sure if these decisions seem right based on my local meta, so I'd like to get as much input as possible, or if there are tweaks that I haven't mentioned that you think may be good. Thanks for the help!
How are people liking the 5th fastland? Also, is Twilight Mire Jund canon at this point? Is not running it just unacceptable and unwarranted? I get that it gets us our BB for our Lili's and our extra G for our Scooze's. I'm just curious. I've been running nine fetches over the Mire and Marsh and it's been working out for me very well. I don't have the weird opening hands filter lands can sometimes give you, I don't get screwed out of four mana on turn four because of untimely fastlands as much, and I get to thin my deck more. It also sets me up a little better against Blood Moon, and hasn't seemed that painful at all due to all the basics we're currently running.
I'm just curious on y'all's thoughts on this. I am not a great or experienced Magic player, and I am not even close to an authority on the matter. I'm just wondering if it's for sure the wrong way to go. It's been working for me so far.
I've been liking Display of Dominance lately as a 1 of in the SB. It blows up Azcanta and Jace at instant for 2 mana, also hits Bitterblossom, both Lilianas, Spreading Seas (can also fizzle this one) Detention Sphere, protects from Fatal Push, Decay, Pulse, Dismember, Kolaghan's Command, and Slaughter Pact,
Aazadan, that card looks suite. What did you cut from your SB? I couldn't find anything to get rid of.
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I'd like to get some people's advice on tuning my Jund list for my local meta, apologies for what's probably gonna be a pretty long post. I went to modern last night and finished 2-2. Lost round 1 against mono-U taking turns in 3 games. Game 3 I got him down to 2 life but he was able to combo off and win, oh well. Round 2 I lost pretty badly to an Esper tempo deck running Geist and Shizo, Death's Storehouse and Lingering Souls. Round 3 I won against burn on the back of scavenging ooze, and round 4 I won against elves (grim lavamancer is so good against that deck). I was running Reid Duke's CFB list as a starting point. Here is the decklist for reference.
I made a single change to add 1 more Nihil Spellbomb to the sideboard and took out the 3rd Ancient Grudge, the main deck was the same.
Anywho, after the quick burn round I looked around the room and noted what everyone was playing. Here is the list that I compiled. Most of these people are regulars so I expect to see most of these decks on the same weekly basis: Mono-U Turns, U/B Turns, U/R Delver w/ Jace, 3x Grixis Control, Naya (BBE, Resto, Knight of the Reliquary), 2x Mono-G Tron, Storm, Living End, 2x Esper Control, 2x Jund, Lantern, 2x Burn, U/B Control, B/G Midrange (Rock), Counters Company, Sultai Midrange, 2x Eldrazi Tron.
With those decks in mind, I wanted to take Reid Duke's list and make some minor tweaks. Here were the tweaks that I was thinking; I'd be happy to hear your guys' opinions:
For the creature base, it seems like having 3 Scavenging Oozes is worth it, as it acts as GY hate against snapcaster and living end, lifegain against burn and small creature decks. On the other hand, it doesn't match well against the Turns decks, Tron, and Eldrazi Tron, and against the control decks it almost never lives more than 1 turn (either getting Push'd or Bolted), so at times it feels like a 3-drop before it just ends up dying. It could be I don't know how to use scavenging ooze very well; it seems like most of time it eats up a removal spell at times that would've been used on a goyf or bob.
I felt that the games where I had more discard I was in better shape, which makes me want more discard in the main than the 4 IoK. I'm thinking from the list to cut 1 LtLH, keep 2 KCommands in, put 1 terminate in the side to make room for I'm thinking a collective brutality and a thoughtseize. I also thought about having 3 KCommands but I didn't want my curve to be too high.
I personally liked 25 lands and will probably want to keep with that. I think I want to replace one of the Bloodstained Mires with a Wooded Foothills, as there were times where I kept seeing Bloodstained Mires and really wanted to get a Forest to preserve life total. I'm going to keep with 2 swamp, 1 forest, 1 mountain for my basic lands, as I didn't see a single Blood Moon in my local meta and I know the Grixis Control decks run Field of Ruin.
With the amount of control, I wanted to fit a Thrun in the sideboard. Since I put in a thoughtseize in the main, that frees up a space to put a Thrun.
With these changes, here is the list I'm thinking of now.
Not sure if these decisions seem right based on my local meta, so I'd like to get as much input as possible, or if there are tweaks that I haven't mentioned that you think may be good. Thanks for the help!
Kevin, your deck looks absolutely fine, it's pretty stock. I know you want more than that, but you just gotta rely on leveraging your skills and a little luck
Turns seems pretty bad for us, and the Esper thing was a weird brew that sounds tough. People can play bad decks that beat us, I wouldn't worry about it too much, that happens a lot less at an FNM. It happens less in an open field because people can punish crappy decks like that.
As for Piney, Jund used to run Twilight Mire. That changed sometime around last year. I personally think Blooming Marsh is an atrocious choice to play over Mire. We have 4x Cliffs, 3x Ravines, I don't want to add an 8th card that comes in tapped as my fourth land. The Twilight Mire has made me happy.
You could always just play another fetch, especially if you fear blood moon in your meta.
Thanks for the input, guys. I think I will replace one of nine of my fetches with a Twilight Mire. But I agree about that 5th fastland. I don't like it. Eight fetches it is.
Has anyone else been getting wrecked by these As Foretold decks? I haven't been able to hang with them. I play Jund on paper and on Cockatrice, so my lists will probably have some differences to match the different metas, but I'm gonna have to add something more to deal with enchantments on my Cockatrice list. We'll see how my LGS turns out. One Abrupt Decay and One Maelstrom Pulse just isn't enough. Not sure how MTGO is looking.
As Foretold isn't the only problematic enchantment either, but it's the hot new thing and I'm seeing a lot of it. I just can't climb over the card advantage that Ancestral Visions brings with that card. I'm thinking of replacing the single Fatal Push with an Abrupt Decay for now. They're relatively similar. Decay hits similar creatures, albeit a turn later. Still, it deals with a lot more problems. It sucks not playing any of "the best removal spell in modern" though. I may even replace the singleton Anger of the Gods in my SB with another Maelstrom Pulse, seeing as how pulse can cover some of the same angle as AotG, and hits everything else.
I mean, the deck is made to tune to the meta. All that may seem "Knee-jerk", but given the samples I've encountered the past few days, I'm going to have to go that direction for now until everything calms down.
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I have a friend that primarily tests on cockatrice, and I would be careful about assuming that the decks you play against on there are, in any way, indicative of actual meta decks. Free programs like Cockatrice and Xmage are good for working out kinks in your own deck (mana base, curve, etc), but by and large the decks that people play on there are experimental and not “real” decks.
Match 1 was against Grixis Control with Jace. I did keep a removal heavy hand in the dark and then saw I was up against Control, so I pretty much had a non functional hand. I topdecked some goyfs but my opponent had too much resources so I just conceded. Game 2 was blast, chained 2 BBE into each other and my oppponent was miles behind from that point on. Game 3 we had too little time left to finish the game in time. Part of it was my fault since I should have conceded Game 1 earlier, I did try to claw myself back into the game which basically cost me the win, since I would have won the third game.
Match 2 against another Grixis Control variant. I won against that one 2-1. BBE is just an allstar. And at that point, I think it is correct to side out Bolt against Control. Bolt is very bad in general, and its not great vs Jace either. A good player will always play around Bolt on Jace if they can and if you start to ping a Jace with a Bolt, you are already in a bad spot.
Match 3 against Jeskai Control with Jace. Discard, LoTV, BBE and Goyf do their thing. Easy 2-0 against that one. BBE is just sooo good. Never even think about playing less than 4.
Match 4 against Elves. Not much to be said. Stomped my opponent 2-0, there was never remotely a chance of him winning at any point. BBE grants such a tempo boost, they won't even come likely back from a resolved CoCo. Also I had Cage in play in game 2, which was also nice.
Match 5 against Mardu Midrange (not Pyromancer). Here I had my only loss, which was solely due to the manabase. I kept 3 spells and 4 lands, and until turn 5 or so, all I had was those 3 spells from the starting hand. I kept drawing lands and was incredibly flooded. However, this was the only time I felt flooded for the whole tournament, so I guess thats at least something.
Can't really tell if that build is the right one yet. I feel some tweaks can surely be done. I do feel though that BBE, and LtLH, especially in combination is absolutely nuts. 4 BBE is fixed for me. I will continue playing with 25 lands and see if the flooding remains or not.
So did you side out all 4 Bolts in Matches 1, 2 and 3? I've been siding out 1 or 2 Bolts against Control myself to hedge against Jace (and those annoying Vendilion Cliques) but being able to side out more will make my sideboarding much smoother
Can't really tell if that build is the right one yet. I feel some tweaks can surely be done. I do feel though that BBE, and LtLH, especially in combination is absolutely nuts. 4 BBE is fixed for me. I will continue playing with 25 lands and see if the flooding remains or not.
What changes do you have in mind so far? Also looking at what you played it seems like theres a lot of control and decks trying to get under, was it that way for the entire store?
So, I got my ass handed to me tonight, but I dropped early
Beat Grixis Control 2-0
Jund mirror----god, this is so swingy. None of it felt skill intensive. It literally came down to who casted BBE first, I was on the backfoot the entire time. We casted 8 BBE's in two games, I definitely didn't cascade into anything good except an LOTV in game 2.
Traverse Shadow Blue
1-2
So---I think I have to agree with Flyer now, I think 25 lands may be needed. My testing on MTGO was very focused towards blue decks, which I was ready for, and beat. But the Jund mirror made me realize two things, you REALLY, really want to be the one casting BBE first, or casting two spells on turn 4.
Grixis Shadow, my treetop village was a maindeck collective brutality, so I was stuck on 2x lands for a while. Game 1 I think opponent would have just been blown out from 2x early LOTVs and 1x Last Hope.
There's a 1K tomorrow so this was good testing, I was way too prepared for an MTGO meta.
Unless this 4x BBE 4 K-Command Shadow deck is legit, I just can't forsee Shadow decks doing well in a Jace meta.
Can't really tell if that build is the right one yet. I feel some tweaks can surely be done. I do feel though that BBE, and LtLH, especially in combination is absolutely nuts. 4 BBE is fixed for me. I will continue playing with 25 lands and see if the flooding remains or not.
Anecdotal flood like this is a really bad way to measure if you have the right number of lands, it will always bias you towards running fewer than optimal. Plus, with the variation in magic, even 1000 games isn't a sufficient sample size to say much of anything in regards to something as broad as mana. The best way to mitigate flood is to include optional mana sinks into the deck, but that tends to be difficult in Jund. The best extra mana sink we have is Bob, followed by creature lands. Liliana and Brutality come in third. But all of that still isn't necessarily sufficient.
Is rabble master still viable with Bloodbraid? I would love to cascade into one, but I'm not even sure what I would cut anymore tbh.
Seems good.
----------------------------
So locally we've got a paper league coming up, round robin style so rounds are dependent on participants, I think there's 14 in the league right now so it's going to be a pretty deep event. Also, we're allowing proxies which means everyone is going to be running either tier or troll decks since card availability won't be a concern for anyone. This is what I'm looking at right now, I've made a couple changes based on the league rules which make me want a few more broad cards and a couple unusual choices.
Current problems:
1. It's 61. The standard answer is probably to cut some non stock stuff but I have reasons for all of it. The easiest cut is probably the Field of Ruin, but even that has uses. One thing I want to bring up is the discard suite. I moved away from both IoK and Thoughtseize and am hedging with Duress, because it seems like these days every deck has a 4+ mana spell we want to take. Jace, Cryptic, Verdict, Company, and more. If they don't have a 4+ mana card, there's usually a sub 3 card. Basically, I'm finding Duress more broad and IoK too narrow right now. Thoughtseize gets it all obviously, but I would rather not lose a bunch of life to that. Plus, as I said I'm expecting Tier and Troll decks and little inbetween. Duress is great at messing up decks using dumb combos.
As far as the sideboard goes, I liked the idea of Macabre. It's nice against Living End, it's 0 mana, it dodges counterspells, Liliana can recur it, Kolaghan's can recur it, and it's modal in that if the game has gone past the GY control stage you can convert it into part of a clock. Display I covered above, it seems well positioned right now, it will probably fade back into obscurity eventually, but right now it stops what's popular. Glissa is for something that stands up to Eldrazi and similar sized creatures, can even beat a Wurmcoil in combat. I'm unsure on Crumble vs Fulminator.
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My only concern is that this could still be a rough sketch of an early build.
If results come flowing in maybe I'll conceede to the idea of it. I'm also wondering if combo players decide to just meta against that fact.
So, I just recently got back into playing Modern thanks to the BBE unban (I absolutelly always loved Jund, and I kind of stepped off from Modern for sometime and the BBE unban seemed good enough reason to swipe off the dirt of my goyfs and bobs!)
One of my favorite cards on my jund has always been Huntmaster of the Fells, and I always used to run 2x of them on my Deck. (It was by far one of the most effective cards in my local meta, as we have A TON of burn decks, a couple merfolks, and overall midrange, grindy decks. It was always at the very worse bringing me 2 for 1's at the late game, saving me from lethals and more often than not, winning single-handedly.)
Now, with BBE's unban, I set my Huntmasters aside and attempted running a 4x BBE build / 25 lands similar to Reid Duke's with some minor modifications, I went 2-2 in last sunday's event. Having lost to Burn and Merfolk while winning vs. Death's Shadow and a veryyyyy narrow win vs. Jeskai Control (That honestly, was just achieved through luck mostly.)
And then this wednesday I played with a "kinda weird" list by running 4x BBE's and 1x Huntmaster main. HUntmaster saved me once, but I found that running only 1x of it makes it too rare to see it. All the while, BBE's seem too good a card to run less than 4x as everyone seems to be recommending. To be honest, with the matchups I've been facing, sometimes I'm finding myself wishing my BBE's were huntmasters. (Even though I reckon BBE is just amazing and usually hits like a truck when I get it. Just not feeling as "safe" as Huntmaster with it, specially when there are some rare moments where my BBE's turned into sad 4 mana - 3/2 haste cards. Whereas my Huntmaster I could always count on its vallue.)
So, my question is:
If I were to run more than 1x Huntmaster nowadays, what should I do ? I'm really wanting to attempt 2x Hunts again.
4x BBE + 2 Hunts is too crazy for a 25 mana deck? (I'm only running 7x 3 mana drops: 3x Oldlili 1x newlili 1x pulse 2x kolaghans)
3x BBE + 2 Hunts is not worth it as BBE is amazing?
(Once again, take into consideration that my shop's meta is very intense in Burn and Grind decks.)
(Oh, and i'm already running Kitchen Finks on my sideboard. But not in main. I've considered using it to try to replace Huntmaster's "job" but there are too many Path to Exiles running around at the moment at the local meta (lots of Abzan and Jeskai/UW variations, plus while he's good at stabilizing my health, I dont feel like he is as flexible as HUntmaster, which can take over games sometimes and also deal tons of damage if it flips while killing off small bodies like enemy merfolks or goblins.)
Obs: Another little thing I'm a little conflicted over is how many discards should I run now with BBE's entrance. I kind of missed running 6/7 discards as having a IOK or Seize in your opening hand is always amazing. But at the same time, I can see how a BBE into Discard is not so great. I'd ask for recommendations on that, but I can tell everyone is still a bit conflicted on that regard aswell. Jund is still getting balanced out between "how much we want to work around BBE" and "how much we want to keep the formula that always works"
If you're talking about the first match, the land was a fetchland. He wouldn't have gotten a good opportunity to get rid of the land within that turn cycle so took a more proactive path.
Against Storm in particular, discard is nice but it really doesn't stop them from doing their thing. I generally use it as more of a tempo play then anything. Scavenging Ooze is about the only card that sort of close the door on game 1
After game 1, there's plenty of discard if you also include Collective Brutality.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Reid said that his current version is a rough draft and he’ll make changes to it after playtesting. It’s also hard to predict the meta and see how many Burn/aggro/midrange decks there will be compared to control/combo.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Land (25)
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
3 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blooming Marsh
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
Sorcery (5)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalkers (5)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I made a single change to add 1 more Nihil Spellbomb to the sideboard and took out the 3rd Ancient Grudge, the main deck was the same.
Anywho, after the quick burn round I looked around the room and noted what everyone was playing. Here is the list that I compiled. Most of these people are regulars so I expect to see most of these decks on the same weekly basis: Mono-U Turns, U/B Turns, U/R Delver w/ Jace, 3x Grixis Control, Naya (BBE, Resto, Knight of the Reliquary), 2x Mono-G Tron, Storm, Living End, 2x Esper Control, 2x Jund, Lantern, 2x Burn, U/B Control, B/G Midrange (Rock), Counters Company, Sultai Midrange, 2x Eldrazi Tron.
With those decks in mind, I wanted to take Reid Duke's list and make some minor tweaks. Here were the tweaks that I was thinking; I'd be happy to hear your guys' opinions:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Land (25)
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blooming Marsh
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Twilight Mire
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
Sorcery (7)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
1 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Terminate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Not sure if these decisions seem right based on my local meta, so I'd like to get as much input as possible, or if there are tweaks that I haven't mentioned that you think may be good. Thanks for the help!
I'm just curious on y'all's thoughts on this. I am not a great or experienced Magic player, and I am not even close to an authority on the matter. I'm just wondering if it's for sure the wrong way to go. It's been working for me so far.
Aazadan, that card looks suite. What did you cut from your SB? I couldn't find anything to get rid of.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Kevin, your deck looks absolutely fine, it's pretty stock. I know you want more than that, but you just gotta rely on leveraging your skills and a little luck
Turns seems pretty bad for us, and the Esper thing was a weird brew that sounds tough. People can play bad decks that beat us, I wouldn't worry about it too much, that happens a lot less at an FNM. It happens less in an open field because people can punish crappy decks like that.
As for Piney, Jund used to run Twilight Mire. That changed sometime around last year. I personally think Blooming Marsh is an atrocious choice to play over Mire. We have 4x Cliffs, 3x Ravines, I don't want to add an 8th card that comes in tapped as my fourth land. The Twilight Mire has made me happy.
You could always just play another fetch, especially if you fear blood moon in your meta.
Has anyone else been getting wrecked by these As Foretold decks? I haven't been able to hang with them. I play Jund on paper and on Cockatrice, so my lists will probably have some differences to match the different metas, but I'm gonna have to add something more to deal with enchantments on my Cockatrice list. We'll see how my LGS turns out. One Abrupt Decay and One Maelstrom Pulse just isn't enough. Not sure how MTGO is looking.
As Foretold isn't the only problematic enchantment either, but it's the hot new thing and I'm seeing a lot of it. I just can't climb over the card advantage that Ancestral Visions brings with that card. I'm thinking of replacing the single Fatal Push with an Abrupt Decay for now. They're relatively similar. Decay hits similar creatures, albeit a turn later. Still, it deals with a lot more problems. It sucks not playing any of "the best removal spell in modern" though. I may even replace the singleton Anger of the Gods in my SB with another Maelstrom Pulse, seeing as how pulse can cover some of the same angle as AotG, and hits everything else.
I mean, the deck is made to tune to the meta. All that may seem "Knee-jerk", but given the samples I've encountered the past few days, I'm going to have to go that direction for now until everything calms down.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Match 1 was against Grixis Control with Jace. I did keep a removal heavy hand in the dark and then saw I was up against Control, so I pretty much had a non functional hand. I topdecked some goyfs but my opponent had too much resources so I just conceded. Game 2 was blast, chained 2 BBE into each other and my oppponent was miles behind from that point on. Game 3 we had too little time left to finish the game in time. Part of it was my fault since I should have conceded Game 1 earlier, I did try to claw myself back into the game which basically cost me the win, since I would have won the third game.
Match 2 against another Grixis Control variant. I won against that one 2-1. BBE is just an allstar. And at that point, I think it is correct to side out Bolt against Control. Bolt is very bad in general, and its not great vs Jace either. A good player will always play around Bolt on Jace if they can and if you start to ping a Jace with a Bolt, you are already in a bad spot.
Match 3 against Jeskai Control with Jace. Discard, LoTV, BBE and Goyf do their thing. Easy 2-0 against that one. BBE is just sooo good. Never even think about playing less than 4.
Match 4 against Elves. Not much to be said. Stomped my opponent 2-0, there was never remotely a chance of him winning at any point. BBE grants such a tempo boost, they won't even come likely back from a resolved CoCo. Also I had Cage in play in game 2, which was also nice.
Match 5 against Mardu Midrange (not Pyromancer). Here I had my only loss, which was solely due to the manabase. I kept 3 spells and 4 lands, and until turn 5 or so, all I had was those 3 spells from the starting hand. I kept drawing lands and was incredibly flooded. However, this was the only time I felt flooded for the whole tournament, so I guess thats at least something.
Can't really tell if that build is the right one yet. I feel some tweaks can surely be done. I do feel though that BBE, and LtLH, especially in combination is absolutely nuts. 4 BBE is fixed for me. I will continue playing with 25 lands and see if the flooding remains or not.
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Fatal Push
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Collective Brutality
2x Terminate
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Thoughtseize
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Grafdidder's Cage
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Collective Brutality
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Anger of the Gods
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Kitchen Finks
Here goes nothing......
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Best of luck!
What changes do you have in mind so far? Also looking at what you played it seems like theres a lot of control and decks trying to get under, was it that way for the entire store?
Beat Grixis Control 2-0
Jund mirror----god, this is so swingy. None of it felt skill intensive. It literally came down to who casted BBE first, I was on the backfoot the entire time. We casted 8 BBE's in two games, I definitely didn't cascade into anything good except an LOTV in game 2.
Traverse Shadow Blue
1-2
So---I think I have to agree with Flyer now, I think 25 lands may be needed. My testing on MTGO was very focused towards blue decks, which I was ready for, and beat. But the Jund mirror made me realize two things, you REALLY, really want to be the one casting BBE first, or casting two spells on turn 4.
Grixis Shadow, my treetop village was a maindeck collective brutality, so I was stuck on 2x lands for a while. Game 1 I think opponent would have just been blown out from 2x early LOTVs and 1x Last Hope.
There's a 1K tomorrow so this was good testing, I was way too prepared for an MTGO meta.
Unless this 4x BBE 4 K-Command Shadow deck is legit, I just can't forsee Shadow decks doing well in a Jace meta.
Anecdotal flood like this is a really bad way to measure if you have the right number of lands, it will always bias you towards running fewer than optimal. Plus, with the variation in magic, even 1000 games isn't a sufficient sample size to say much of anything in regards to something as broad as mana. The best way to mitigate flood is to include optional mana sinks into the deck, but that tends to be difficult in Jund. The best extra mana sink we have is Bob, followed by creature lands. Liliana and Brutality come in third. But all of that still isn't necessarily sufficient.
My current list is posted below. Nothing is set in stone yet.
Seems good.
----------------------------
So locally we've got a paper league coming up, round robin style so rounds are dependent on participants, I think there's 14 in the league right now so it's going to be a pretty deep event. Also, we're allowing proxies which means everyone is going to be running either tier or troll decks since card availability won't be a concern for anyone. This is what I'm looking at right now, I've made a couple changes based on the league rules which make me want a few more broad cards and a couple unusual choices.
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Field of Ruin
Creatures 13
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harsh Mentor
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Damnation
1 Choke
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Display of Dominance
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Dark Betrayal
Current problems:
1. It's 61. The standard answer is probably to cut some non stock stuff but I have reasons for all of it. The easiest cut is probably the Field of Ruin, but even that has uses. One thing I want to bring up is the discard suite. I moved away from both IoK and Thoughtseize and am hedging with Duress, because it seems like these days every deck has a 4+ mana spell we want to take. Jace, Cryptic, Verdict, Company, and more. If they don't have a 4+ mana card, there's usually a sub 3 card. Basically, I'm finding Duress more broad and IoK too narrow right now. Thoughtseize gets it all obviously, but I would rather not lose a bunch of life to that. Plus, as I said I'm expecting Tier and Troll decks and little inbetween. Duress is great at messing up decks using dumb combos.
As far as the sideboard goes, I liked the idea of Macabre. It's nice against Living End, it's 0 mana, it dodges counterspells, Liliana can recur it, Kolaghan's can recur it, and it's modal in that if the game has gone past the GY control stage you can convert it into part of a clock. Display I covered above, it seems well positioned right now, it will probably fade back into obscurity eventually, but right now it stops what's popular. Glissa is for something that stands up to Eldrazi and similar sized creatures, can even beat a Wurmcoil in combat. I'm unsure on Crumble vs Fulminator.