Here is what I have been playing online and will be playing at my LGS. Keep in mind I have my expected LGS in mind, and Jund is not a static deck list - it's a deck philosophy that adjusts to a meta with a plethora of cards at its disposal.
I expect the following this first week at my LGS where I expect many players will still playing the same deck as last week - largely because I don't expect them to shift as quick as possible. Meanwhile my Bloodbraids have been freed from the binder they were in for years :). So, I built the following list expecting:
-Humans (several copies)
-Lantern
-Jund
-GDS
-Zoo and Bushwhacker
-8 rack
-Tron
-Eldrazi Tron
-Jeskai and UW Control (I know they have Jaces from Legacy)
-Company/Chord decks
-Gifts Storm
Over the past week I've been testing online a lot. The lessons I've learned are:
I needed to get over my excitement and rose-colored glasses about BBE cascading into ideal cards. You won't always draw BBE (even with 4 of them) and the rest of the deck still needs to function as if there was no BBE in it. At first I was trying all sorts of builds trying to maximize potential value from cascades like Kitchen Finks, more Kolaghan's Commands, etc. Sure there were times I would get those awesome cascades but I figured out that it wasn't worth warping the deck's mana curve or playing cards that otherwise were not typically played before - at least in the main deck.
That said, the deck is now a bit more constrained due to minimizing bad cascades. So a little less discard, no fatal push.
Lightning Bolts have never felt so good - with more planeswalkers out there (Jace, Lili in the mirror match, etc.) and the hasty Bloodbraid Elf Jund becomes a much faster clock that can end games much quicker than before. It can have a tempo and crack-back ability it didn't. Burning our opponents out is a much more common scenario lately.
My anecdotal experience is that control, Jund, and dredge decks are much more common now. Burn too.
Card choice explanations:
Grim Lavamancer is a champ at keeping planeswalkers at bay, particularly with the bolts in the deck. It also eats Affinity, Humans, and Company decks alive. Kills Lantern players even with an Ensnaring Bridge similar to how Huntmaster used to as well, except way quicker cause they keep milling us.
Scavenging Ooze is and always has been a staple of Jund's playstyle IMO. Having multiples is not bad because they usually die quick and when they do they feed the next one. It's critical in the Humans matchup and no Snapcaster deck wants one sitting around. In the mirror match Scooze is king of the battlefield if left unchecked.
No Fatal Push cause it's a bad cascade - instead I upped my Abrupt Decay count back to two. Any 2CMC creature Fatal Push can kill then so can Abrupt Decay. Most manlands die to Bolt, which are back to a full playset, other than Colonnade, and if Colonnade decks tap out to activate them they risk a BBE on the crackback. With blue decks you should hold up your BBE's often I feel.
Also, I know the blue decks at my shop play Search for Azcanta (aka Search for Jace). Abrupt Decay and Scooze rock that card.
Only 5 discard spells maindeck. It's been fine so far. The only real combo deck out there is Storm (other combo decks tend to be either creature-based, which we excel at killing, or graveyard-based, and Scooze is there for that). With the uptick in Jund and Control decks it's actually better to be more threat dense IMO.
24 lands with 3 manlands, and 19 black sources. At first I tried 25 - focusing on the statistics in Frank Karsten's articles. I tried 25 with 3 manlands, 4 manlands, different manlands like Treetops, etc. In the end I felt 25 was too much flood. I realized the flaw in my thinking was that while Frank's stats are correct - it is often NOT actually true that you want to cost a 4 drop on exactly turn 4 (which is where the stats say you need 25 lands in order to be able to do so ~88%-90% of the time). In fact most of the time you want to hold back removal and pace the game with the right tempo. So in reality BBE doesn't get cast until past turn 4. You won't always draw BBE - meanwhile you end up flooding on lands and die or fall way behind with not enough pressure.
3 Bloodbraids only for now. It's better for the mana curve and Bob flips.
Sideboard cards:
-Thrun is STILL one of the best cards vs Blue decks. Is there some other card in Jund's arsenal that's better? Don't think so.
-Hazoret also very good vs control, GDS, Jund, Eldrazi, and Lantern. Not as hard to remove as Thrun but vs Jace decks one Thrun isn't enough. I think we need to be more threat dense and play game-ending threats turn after turn as much as possible.
-Pithing Needle: I never liked it until I played 12 Jace decks this week. Hits Colonnade too. I expect the Tron players at my store to come back and it is great against them to buy time vs a turn one Expedition Map or slow down a quick Karn.
-Kitchen Finks: amazing in the Burn, Jund, and Control deck matchups. Even better when you cascade into it. I would rather have a Finks vs Control than a Collective Brutality any day.
-Hero's Downfall: a bit of an experiment. With the loss of the third terminate, this card is there for when instant speed unconditional removal is needed such as Eldrazi. Oh and did I mention all the Lili's and Jaces I keep running into now? I'm not a fan of Dreadbore - Thought Knot Seer laughs at Dreadbore and I *know* I will likely face Eldrazi Tron at my LGS. In all other sorcery speed scenarios Maelstrom Pulse is superior to Dreadbore IMO. I might turn this back into a Huntmaster, Damnation, or Anger of the Gods. Which in my mind are all basically small creature sweepers.
I think you kinda overloaded on clunky spells in your sideboard.
Pithing needle has never made me happy in jund, too narrow, I want it to hit more things across the field.
You really should just play Dreadbore over downfall.
1x Ancient Grudge seems bold.
I really, really don't think any Jund lists want to run below 4x BBEs, but everyone has their opinions.
I get an argument for 4x BBE's. Can you expand on the reasoning for Dreadbore over Hero's Downfall or Maelstrom Pulse? Is it the CMC? If so, how does one then advocate 4x BBE's?
If the maindeck has a Grim Lavamancer then I feel that makes up for 1x Ancient Grudge instead of the usual 2.
I think you kinda overloaded on clunky spells in your sideboard.
Pithing needle has never made me happy in jund, too narrow, I want it to hit more things across the field.
You really should just play Dreadbore over downfall.
1x Ancient Grudge seems bold.
I really, really don't think any Jund lists want to run below 4x BBEs, but everyone has their opinions.
I get an argument for 4x BBE's. Can you expand on the reasoning for Dreadbore over Hero's Downfall or Maelstrom Pulse? Is it the CMC? If so, how does one then advocate 4x BBE's?
If the maindeck has a Grim Lavamancer then I feel that makes up for 1x Ancient Grudge instead of the usual 2.
Heros downfall and pulse are both cards which are useful, however, are not always great in every matchup. Pulse is an exception since its a catch all, which makes up for its CMC. Generally, we want to be concerned about CMC. UNLESS, they do very significant stuff for us that the higher CMC is worth it to run. In my opinion, Heros downfall does not grant a big advantage to justify its higher CMC over Dreadbore. Pulse is a card we generally run, but we dont want too many copies of it clunking up our play patterns.
BBE is a totally different case. BBE is always the best card we have in grindy and attrition based matchups going onward. Its also very good in tempo based games as BBE, despite granting CA, also grants tempo. Since we build our decks to have good targets with BBE like Lightning Bolt, BBE also provides a reasonable clock and can dig for our SB cards, which is also relevant against Big Mana and combo. Its never a bad card, therefore I don't see a reason to not run 4 copies anytime, despite the higher CMC. Its totally worth it.
And this sheer fact has also lead me to the conclusion, that our deck will automatically shift towards a higher curve and will have a clunkier CMC distribution than before. Those rabblemaster builds from before were pretty much on the low end concerning a manacurve that we wanna and can go, this will drastically change now on.
And I believe, since we had a pretty long time now where we had to run a lower curve (many lists played 23 lands, which was never really the concensus in Jund before that) that those drastic changes will only slowly get into peoples mindsets. "We used to run 23 lands before, now we have to run as many as 25 potentially? Thats totally too much, we will gonna flood forever". While that thinking is correct comparing the previous metagme with the clunkier list, we need to keep in mind that the metagame will also change. Maybe Modern will get slower due to this. Also it is possible that it wont, but what I can tell, BBE is a card which jumps now in position 1 concerning the powerlevel in soo many matchups now, that we have to run 4 copies and also have to upper our curve a bit.
Sooner or later we will find a concensus about how high the curve actually will be. But what I know, in lists with a manacurve like the ones most people begin to test with, I never found significant ones running less than 25 lands historically that didnt run Deathrite.
Bad cascade cards is also a subjective term based on the matchup. I am generally fine running more "bad" cascade targets in the main, since we can adjust after SB and have in the deck the best cards against a certain matchup. Like against combo and control, I am also happy to cascade into a discard spell, because its actually a good cards to have here.
I’ve been thinking the same thing Delver. I think that our discard suite is too critical in getting us to the mid-game to give up on because you might cascade into a discard spell when your opponent has no cards in hand. It seems like Liliana the Last Hope is the card that people are trimming on discard to fit, but there’s a lot of matchups where she just doesn’t matter and is a bad cascade anyway. Discard at least had a chance to be relevant in every matchup.
That Reid vs Cheon game was nuts. It made a great argument for straight BG still being a good choice, which was a concern with the BBE unbanning. It was super cool to see both decks leveraging their unique strengths to try to get ahead, and the quality of play from both players was excellent. It did make a really compelling argument for the basic mountain, though.
I mean, cheon saw like all four copies of FoR, id still argue for that second forest.
I haven't really seen any lists cut last hope, most people seem to be on 5 discard
I like cutting to 24 land and having the cb as discard 6. Solved a ton of issues for me, it's more removal against aggro, extra discard for combo and control, and life gain for burn.
Would running a couple of Grim Flayers help with fix cascade? Flayer lets us fix the top of our library and possibly remove cards we don't want to cascade into.
Would running a couple of Grim Flayers help with fix cascade? Flayer lets us fix the top of our library and possibly remove cards we don't want to cascade into.
That is 100% best case scenario mentality, in my opinion. What would you CUT to run the Flayers, is the question?
Would running a couple of Grim Flayers help with fix cascade? Flayer lets us fix the top of our library and possibly remove cards we don't want to cascade into.
Nah.
You're looking at the best care scenario. When Grim goes uncontested he's fantastic, but that's not as easy to execute.
Bob gives you card draw, even when there's a board stall.
I mean, cheon saw like all four copies of FoR, id still argue for that second forest.
Why would you want a second forest as opposed to then first mountain? The deck might have a double green spell in sideboard. Otherwise I think being able to cast your spells under duress by mana denial is just better.
Went 4-0 last night at lgs. Decided to go 25 lands 4 raging ravins and 2 forests. Land worked great all night. I decided not to run push and instead I put in a 3rd k command. I feel 4 bolts 2 terminates 1 decay and 1 pulse main is plenty of removal and I would much rather have the extra terminate over the push anyways. Played... green tron, sulti delver, Burn, Merfolk. I run 4 finks in side due to lots of burn at lgs.
I mean, cheon saw like all four copies of FoR, id still argue for that second forest.
Why would you want a second forest as opposed to then first mountain? The deck might have a double green spell in sideboard. Otherwise I think being able to cast your spells under duress by mana denial is just better.
Blood Moon, the card that is everywhere currently, is the main reason.
Is the idea you want a second Forest to up the percentage points of naturally drawing one after a Blood Moon is on play?
Nothing really weird in my choices. I shaved down to 2 Ravines and added a TTV because having more than 1 can feel really bad, and they can be expensive to activate. TTV is pretty high-quality for a cheap activation cost. The 4 basics are ESSENTIAL in this metagame, IMO.
R1 vs GW Valuetown: A struggle. They were able to stick high value creatures like Voice, Ramunap Excavator, Tireless Tracker, Courser, KotR, Scooze, etc, and outran my removal - especially with CoCo. I lost game 1 to being overwhelmed by creatures and the opponent beginning to recur Ghost Quarters to assault my manabase. I sideboarded in as much small creature removal I could, 2 CoBru, 2 Anger, Lavaman, Finks, and a single Nihil Spellbomb to attempt to stop his KotR and Ramunap value. What to take out was somewhat challenging. I felt that KComm wasn't high value, as his removal was simply path and his creatures were usually higher than 2 toughness. I probably shaved a little hand disruption and a few LotV (I find her low value for board-swarm decks) along with the KComm.
Game 2 was pretty much on autopilot as he was stuck on 2 lands after a mull and me killing his mana dork. LtLH on turn 3 and just upticked to an ultimate threat at which point he scooped. Game 3 was pretty much a repeat of game 1. My Anger of the Gods weren't able to remove enough creatures, especially Courser. I cascaded into my 2nd Anger when it was essentially useless, as well. 0-1
R2 vs RG Eldrazi Tron. A pretty bad matchup where I got somewhat lucky but played as best I could to get there. The deck seemed like a hybrid between standard Eldrazi Tron and RG Tron. G1 I barely remember, I think my opponent wasn't able to make tron as I decay'ed an expedition map and all he seemed to be drawing were Chromatic Spheres. I was able to get in there with creatures before he could cast anything intimidating. Sideboard: In: 3 Fulmy bois, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Pulse. Out: LtLH, CoBru, Push, probably 3 bolts.
G2 my opener featured 2 Fulminator Mages, 2 not amazing lands, and some other stuff I can't recall. It was a keep only because the Fumlybois. It seemed like an uphill battle when my opponent was able to make Tron early and played a Reality Smasher, and all I had on board was Bob. I removed the Smasher with a dreadbore or terminate and made a tough decision on what to pitch at that point. I believe I threw away a Goyf, as I knew I needed to hit a 3rd land just to start playing my Mages and wouldn't be playing a Goyf for my next few turns, as I also had a BBE in hand at that point as well. So my plan to win was remove the big threat, draw into land, and start taking him off tron. After removing his Smasher, he followed up with an Endbringer, which is always sad to see. I drew into a 3rd land and started taking him off Tron. The opponent attacked into my Bob without using Endbringer's no-block ability, probably hoping I'd chump. Needing more draw, I took it and went to 9 life or so. I untapped, drew into another land, and killed the endbringer. I was able to cascade into another Fulmy and play the one in hand later, as a hand disruption spell showed him stuck on green mana as well as not able to cast the Karn in hand. I will be moving to 4 Fulminators in the future as I bought one with the last 2 visits of store credit I had earned. 1-1
R3 was against JtmS miracles. A challenging deck to face down. G1 was a grind where he stuck a JtmS fairly early, and started brainstorming to set up his miracles. He did some cool stuff like set up an instant-speed terminus off an Opt when I had a BBE, a Bob, and cast another BBE in order to attack in to kill his Jace even if he held path, and swung in. I was holding a Pulse since my opener, but felt like I had to hold it in the face of an Entreat the Angels he was setting up as his wincon. He did eventually cast it for 4 angels and I removed them, but my board was empty and he began fatesealing me, and the game was over - scoop. Sideboard in: Pulse, Finks, Fulminators, out: terminate, push, LtLH, forget what else really.
G2 was much faster as my opponent wasn't able to get a Jace down to set up his miracles. An early IoK let me take his Entreat the Angels, which was actually a hard choice vs. a Path when all I held was Goyf. I didn't want to let him draw into a Jace to set up the Miracle, so just let him path-ramp my Gofy to speed out a BBE later. I was able to get a clock down fast enough to win fairly efficiently before he could do much.
G3 was harder as he did stick a Jace, but it was essentially a 4 mana brainstorm/gain 3 life as I finished it off with a Goyf. He cast a non-miracled Terminus eventually to clear a few of my creatures, and had a Ghost Quarter on board which required me make some touch choices. He had previously Field of Ruined my single red source on board, and I held my mountain in hand already. I didn't want to play it into the GQ, so I didn't make a land drop with it until I could play it and cast my BBE with it, rather than have it stuck in hand due to no red sources. I eventually over-ran what he had in hand for a win. I felt like I made a few smart decisions about when to hold stuff in hand to play around what I knew he had even though it made my clock a potential turn or two slower. 2-1
R4 against mono-U Tron. This guy was a regular who plays this pet deck often. We didn't really have many real games. G1 he mulls to 5 with me on 6, but he is still able to get stuff going. He plays a 6-land Wurmcoil, but I am holding an KComm and a fatal push I had felt bad about drawing earlier. Turns out it was just what I needed to fight through with my 4 creatures on baord. Kcomm the Wurmcoil, fatal push the lifelinker, attach in, game. Sideboard in: Pulse, Mages, Grudges, out: probably the push, bolts, CoBru. G2 I mull to 5 and he plays a turn 4 Ugin, saying "skill game". I hold no pulse or dreadbore, so am forced to cast a BBE and pray. I cascade into a Thoughtseize which reveals a hand I'm not fighting through of various counterspells. He kills the BBE with Ugin, I don't draw anything to remove Ugin, concede. G3 he mulls to 5, I cascade into a Fulminator turn 4 to take him off one of his 2 lands, not really a game. 3-1
I'm not sure how I'd want to change the deck right now besides adding a 4th Fulminator Mage and probably shaving the Finks. Needs more testing. GW Valuetown seems like a terrible matchup and I'm not sure the best way to combat it. Not having a damnation felt awful as it's the ultimate safety valve against go-wide strategies with high toughness creatures. But I'm not sure a 1-of is really worth it especially as you can't cascade into it.
Shanebeeps, I can see GW coco being a problem. Graffdiggers cage helps. I bring in brutality to hit mana dorks, voice early and to potentially snag a coco out of hand. Both Lilly's are very good in match up...it's a grind game and u want as much value as u can get. Iok their paths and let them path goyf early to pave the way for dark confidant. They only run 3-4 paths. With our confidant engine online and cascading bbes u should outvalue them.
Shanebeeps, I can see GW coco being a problem. Graffdiggers cage helps. I bring in brutality to hit mana dorks, voice early and to potentially snag a coco out of hand. Both Lilly's are very good in match up...it's a grind game and u want as much value as u can get. Iok their paths and let them path goyf early to pave the way for dark confidant. They only run 3-4 paths. With our confidant engine online and cascading bbes u should outvalue them.
Liliana of the Veil is bad against a deck that can sacrifice Voice or Kitchen Finks to her -2 and can put a Loxodon Smiter on the battlefield to her +1. She’s the first card I board out against GW Coco.
If decks like GW valuetown, zoo, Abzan Coco, and Dredge start seeing more play, we’ll have to add Kalitas back to the 75.
Shanebeeps, I can see GW coco being a problem. Graffdiggers cage helps. I bring in brutality to hit mana dorks, voice early and to potentially snag a coco out of hand. Both Lilly's are very good in match up...it's a grind game and u want as much value as u can get. Iok their paths and let them path goyf early to pave the way for dark confidant. They only run 3-4 paths. With our confidant engine online and cascading bbes u should outvalue them.
Liliana of the Veil is bad against a deck that can sacrifice Voice or Kitchen Finks to her -2 and can put a Loxodon Smiter on the battlefield to her +1. She’s the first card I board out against GW Coco.
If decks like GW valuetown, zoo, Abzan Coco, and Dredge start seeing more play, we’ll have to add Kalitas back to the 75.
I have not played coco decks that run loxodon smiter I played many...never seen it, not saying it isn't run just I never played against it, sure I can see that being a problem but not going to play around a card I never see. Lotv has always put tons of work for me vs any coco decks. Lilly plus removal is value for me sure they can sack finks or voice but when it's grind fest. What else u going to do? Spot remove that same threat? Ignore it? I just grind though them and lotv works plus all the removal to keep the board under control she has always worked great. I will keep running her in that match up as long as it keeps working for me. Kalitas was amazing. i agree unless creature decks come back in force I think his time is over.
I mean, cheon saw like all four copies of FoR, id still argue for that second forest.
Why would you want a second forest as opposed to then first mountain? The deck might have a double green spell in sideboard. Otherwise I think being able to cast your spells under duress by mana denial is just better.
Blood Moon, the card that is everywhere currently, is the main reason.
I expect the following this first week at my LGS where I expect many players will still playing the same deck as last week - largely because I don't expect them to shift as quick as possible. Meanwhile my Bloodbraids have been freed from the binder they were in for years :). So, I built the following list expecting:
-Humans (several copies)
-Lantern
-Jund
-GDS
-Zoo and Bushwhacker
-8 rack
-Tron
-Eldrazi Tron
-Jeskai and UW Control (I know they have Jaces from Legacy)
-Company/Chord decks
-Gifts Storm
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Grim Lavamancer
Spells (21)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Blood Crypt
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
3x Raging Ravine
1x Blooming Marsh
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Collective Brutality
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Thoughtseize
1x Pithing Needle
1x Hazoret the Fervant
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Hero's Downfall
Over the past week I've been testing online a lot. The lessons I've learned are:
Card choice explanations:
-Hazoret also very good vs control, GDS, Jund, Eldrazi, and Lantern. Not as hard to remove as Thrun but vs Jace decks one Thrun isn't enough. I think we need to be more threat dense and play game-ending threats turn after turn as much as possible.
-Pithing Needle: I never liked it until I played 12 Jace decks this week. Hits Colonnade too. I expect the Tron players at my store to come back and it is great against them to buy time vs a turn one Expedition Map or slow down a quick Karn.
-Kitchen Finks: amazing in the Burn, Jund, and Control deck matchups. Even better when you cascade into it. I would rather have a Finks vs Control than a Collective Brutality any day.
-Hero's Downfall: a bit of an experiment. With the loss of the third terminate, this card is there for when instant speed unconditional removal is needed such as Eldrazi. Oh and did I mention all the Lili's and Jaces I keep running into now? I'm not a fan of Dreadbore - Thought Knot Seer laughs at Dreadbore and I *know* I will likely face Eldrazi Tron at my LGS. In all other sorcery speed scenarios Maelstrom Pulse is superior to Dreadbore IMO. I might turn this back into a Huntmaster, Damnation, or Anger of the Gods. Which in my mind are all basically small creature sweepers.
Pithing needle has never made me happy in jund, too narrow, I want it to hit more things across the field.
You really should just play Dreadbore over downfall.
1x Ancient Grudge seems bold.
I really, really don't think any Jund lists want to run below 4x BBEs, but everyone has their opinions.
I get an argument for 4x BBE's. Can you expand on the reasoning for Dreadbore over Hero's Downfall or Maelstrom Pulse? Is it the CMC? If so, how does one then advocate 4x BBE's?
If the maindeck has a Grim Lavamancer then I feel that makes up for 1x Ancient Grudge instead of the usual 2.
Heros downfall and pulse are both cards which are useful, however, are not always great in every matchup. Pulse is an exception since its a catch all, which makes up for its CMC. Generally, we want to be concerned about CMC. UNLESS, they do very significant stuff for us that the higher CMC is worth it to run. In my opinion, Heros downfall does not grant a big advantage to justify its higher CMC over Dreadbore. Pulse is a card we generally run, but we dont want too many copies of it clunking up our play patterns.
BBE is a totally different case. BBE is always the best card we have in grindy and attrition based matchups going onward. Its also very good in tempo based games as BBE, despite granting CA, also grants tempo. Since we build our decks to have good targets with BBE like Lightning Bolt, BBE also provides a reasonable clock and can dig for our SB cards, which is also relevant against Big Mana and combo. Its never a bad card, therefore I don't see a reason to not run 4 copies anytime, despite the higher CMC. Its totally worth it.
And this sheer fact has also lead me to the conclusion, that our deck will automatically shift towards a higher curve and will have a clunkier CMC distribution than before. Those rabblemaster builds from before were pretty much on the low end concerning a manacurve that we wanna and can go, this will drastically change now on.
And I believe, since we had a pretty long time now where we had to run a lower curve (many lists played 23 lands, which was never really the concensus in Jund before that) that those drastic changes will only slowly get into peoples mindsets. "We used to run 23 lands before, now we have to run as many as 25 potentially? Thats totally too much, we will gonna flood forever". While that thinking is correct comparing the previous metagme with the clunkier list, we need to keep in mind that the metagame will also change. Maybe Modern will get slower due to this. Also it is possible that it wont, but what I can tell, BBE is a card which jumps now in position 1 concerning the powerlevel in soo many matchups now, that we have to run 4 copies and also have to upper our curve a bit.
Sooner or later we will find a concensus about how high the curve actually will be. But what I know, in lists with a manacurve like the ones most people begin to test with, I never found significant ones running less than 25 lands historically that didnt run Deathrite.
That Reid vs Cheon game was nuts. It made a great argument for straight BG still being a good choice, which was a concern with the BBE unbanning. It was super cool to see both decks leveraging their unique strengths to try to get ahead, and the quality of play from both players was excellent. It did make a really compelling argument for the basic mountain, though.
I haven't really seen any lists cut last hope, most people seem to be on 5 discard
I like cutting to 24 land and having the cb as discard 6. Solved a ton of issues for me, it's more removal against aggro, extra discard for combo and control, and life gain for burn.
That is 100% best case scenario mentality, in my opinion. What would you CUT to run the Flayers, is the question?
I would never leave home without a basic mountain at this point in the metagame. It's saved my butt in only a small number of games already.
Nah.
You're looking at the best care scenario. When Grim goes uncontested he's fantastic, but that's not as easy to execute.
Bob gives you card draw, even when there's a board stall.
Why would you want a second forest as opposed to then first mountain? The deck might have a double green spell in sideboard. Otherwise I think being able to cast your spells under duress by mana denial is just better.
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 swamp
1 stomping ground
4 verdant catacombs
2 forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 overgrown tomb
1 wooded foothills
4 raging ravine
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terminate
2 Thoughtseize
Side board
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spell bomb
1 Lilly last hope
3 Fulminator mage
1 Ancient grudge
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 maelstrom pulse
Is the idea you want a second Forest to up the percentage points of naturally drawing one after a Blood Moon is on play?
Deck I ran: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/943497#paper
Nothing really weird in my choices. I shaved down to 2 Ravines and added a TTV because having more than 1 can feel really bad, and they can be expensive to activate. TTV is pretty high-quality for a cheap activation cost. The 4 basics are ESSENTIAL in this metagame, IMO.
R1 vs GW Valuetown: A struggle. They were able to stick high value creatures like Voice, Ramunap Excavator, Tireless Tracker, Courser, KotR, Scooze, etc, and outran my removal - especially with CoCo. I lost game 1 to being overwhelmed by creatures and the opponent beginning to recur Ghost Quarters to assault my manabase. I sideboarded in as much small creature removal I could, 2 CoBru, 2 Anger, Lavaman, Finks, and a single Nihil Spellbomb to attempt to stop his KotR and Ramunap value. What to take out was somewhat challenging. I felt that KComm wasn't high value, as his removal was simply path and his creatures were usually higher than 2 toughness. I probably shaved a little hand disruption and a few LotV (I find her low value for board-swarm decks) along with the KComm.
Game 2 was pretty much on autopilot as he was stuck on 2 lands after a mull and me killing his mana dork. LtLH on turn 3 and just upticked to an ultimate threat at which point he scooped. Game 3 was pretty much a repeat of game 1. My Anger of the Gods weren't able to remove enough creatures, especially Courser. I cascaded into my 2nd Anger when it was essentially useless, as well. 0-1
R2 vs RG Eldrazi Tron. A pretty bad matchup where I got somewhat lucky but played as best I could to get there. The deck seemed like a hybrid between standard Eldrazi Tron and RG Tron. G1 I barely remember, I think my opponent wasn't able to make tron as I decay'ed an expedition map and all he seemed to be drawing were Chromatic Spheres. I was able to get in there with creatures before he could cast anything intimidating. Sideboard: In: 3 Fulmy bois, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Pulse. Out: LtLH, CoBru, Push, probably 3 bolts.
G2 my opener featured 2 Fulminator Mages, 2 not amazing lands, and some other stuff I can't recall. It was a keep only because the Fumlybois. It seemed like an uphill battle when my opponent was able to make Tron early and played a Reality Smasher, and all I had on board was Bob. I removed the Smasher with a dreadbore or terminate and made a tough decision on what to pitch at that point. I believe I threw away a Goyf, as I knew I needed to hit a 3rd land just to start playing my Mages and wouldn't be playing a Goyf for my next few turns, as I also had a BBE in hand at that point as well. So my plan to win was remove the big threat, draw into land, and start taking him off tron. After removing his Smasher, he followed up with an Endbringer, which is always sad to see. I drew into a 3rd land and started taking him off Tron. The opponent attacked into my Bob without using Endbringer's no-block ability, probably hoping I'd chump. Needing more draw, I took it and went to 9 life or so. I untapped, drew into another land, and killed the endbringer. I was able to cascade into another Fulmy and play the one in hand later, as a hand disruption spell showed him stuck on green mana as well as not able to cast the Karn in hand. I will be moving to 4 Fulminators in the future as I bought one with the last 2 visits of store credit I had earned.
R3 was against JtmS miracles. A challenging deck to face down. G1 was a grind where he stuck a JtmS fairly early, and started brainstorming to set up his miracles. He did some cool stuff like set up an instant-speed terminus off an Opt when I had a BBE, a Bob, and cast another BBE in order to attack in to kill his Jace even if he held path, and swung in. I was holding a Pulse since my opener, but felt like I had to hold it in the face of an Entreat the Angels he was setting up as his wincon. He did eventually cast it for 4 angels and I removed them, but my board was empty and he began fatesealing me, and the game was over - scoop. Sideboard in: Pulse, Finks, Fulminators, out: terminate, push, LtLH, forget what else really.
G2 was much faster as my opponent wasn't able to get a Jace down to set up his miracles. An early IoK let me take his Entreat the Angels, which was actually a hard choice vs. a Path when all I held was Goyf. I didn't want to let him draw into a Jace to set up the Miracle, so just let him path-ramp my Gofy to speed out a BBE later. I was able to get a clock down fast enough to win fairly efficiently before he could do much.
G3 was harder as he did stick a Jace, but it was essentially a 4 mana brainstorm/gain 3 life as I finished it off with a Goyf. He cast a non-miracled Terminus eventually to clear a few of my creatures, and had a Ghost Quarter on board which required me make some touch choices. He had previously Field of Ruined my single red source on board, and I held my mountain in hand already. I didn't want to play it into the GQ, so I didn't make a land drop with it until I could play it and cast my BBE with it, rather than have it stuck in hand due to no red sources. I eventually over-ran what he had in hand for a win. I felt like I made a few smart decisions about when to hold stuff in hand to play around what I knew he had even though it made my clock a potential turn or two slower. 2-1
R4 against mono-U Tron. This guy was a regular who plays this pet deck often. We didn't really have many real games. G1 he mulls to 5 with me on 6, but he is still able to get stuff going. He plays a 6-land Wurmcoil, but I am holding an KComm and a fatal push I had felt bad about drawing earlier. Turns out it was just what I needed to fight through with my 4 creatures on baord. Kcomm the Wurmcoil, fatal push the lifelinker, attach in, game. Sideboard in: Pulse, Mages, Grudges, out: probably the push, bolts, CoBru. G2 I mull to 5 and he plays a turn 4 Ugin, saying "skill game". I hold no pulse or dreadbore, so am forced to cast a BBE and pray. I cascade into a Thoughtseize which reveals a hand I'm not fighting through of various counterspells. He kills the BBE with Ugin, I don't draw anything to remove Ugin, concede. G3 he mulls to 5, I cascade into a Fulminator turn 4 to take him off one of his 2 lands, not really a game. 3-1
I'm not sure how I'd want to change the deck right now besides adding a 4th Fulminator Mage and probably shaving the Finks. Needs more testing. GW Valuetown seems like a terrible matchup and I'm not sure the best way to combat it. Not having a damnation felt awful as it's the ultimate safety valve against go-wide strategies with high toughness creatures. But I'm not sure a 1-of is really worth it especially as you can't cascade into it.
Liliana of the Veil is bad against a deck that can sacrifice Voice or Kitchen Finks to her -2 and can put a Loxodon Smiter on the battlefield to her +1. She’s the first card I board out against GW Coco.
If decks like GW valuetown, zoo, Abzan Coco, and Dredge start seeing more play, we’ll have to add Kalitas back to the 75.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I have not played coco decks that run loxodon smiter I played many...never seen it, not saying it isn't run just I never played against it, sure I can see that being a problem but not going to play around a card I never see. Lotv has always put tons of work for me vs any coco decks. Lilly plus removal is value for me sure they can sack finks or voice but when it's grind fest. What else u going to do? Spot remove that same threat? Ignore it? I just grind though them and lotv works plus all the removal to keep the board under control she has always worked great. I will keep running her in that match up as long as it keeps working for me. Kalitas was amazing. i agree unless creature decks come back in force I think his time is over.
So is Field of Ruin.
Seeing one corner case where someone drew four copies of FoR isn't enough for me but everyone has different experiences and theories.