It's not a bad list, there's only one huge thing I'd knock you for---that LOTV. LOTV should REALLY be 4x copies. Junk could get away with 3 because of lingering souls and the clunkiness of the deck
It's not a bad list, there's only one huge thing I'd knock you for---that LOTV. LOTV should REALLY be 4x copies. Junk could get away with 3 because of lingering souls and the clunkiness of the deck
.
How does this critique make any sense when we have no legitimate idea what the metagame will look like? Online is nothing but Bloodbraid Elf and Jace decks everywhere. I'm fairly certain the next major paper tournament won't be just those decks.
I start to believe we need 25 lands in order to play 4 BBE though. I guess it would be greedy if we stay on 24 lands. 23 lands is definitely not working in the long term I think.
It's not a bad list, there's only one huge thing I'd knock you for---that LOTV. LOTV should REALLY be 4x copies. Junk could get away with 3 because of lingering souls and the clunkiness of the deck
How do you know? What if the new meta shapes up to be all aggro? LOTV sure will look silly against a field of robots and humans. Lot of bold statements in this thread from you lately.
Craig Wescoe have been testing Reid Duke's 25 lands/0 Thoughtseize list and posted the videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVMWc0Pgbt8
EDIT: Interesting to see that IoK's inability to take away Jace came up against UW Control
I have a big problem with videos where false strategies are executed from pro players (which normally play a different deck), which leads to that newer players adopt the mistakes more likely. I started watching the video and he keeps IOK in the mirror right away, after a few minutes. What should that tell us?
It's not a bad list, there's only one huge thing I'd knock you for---that LOTV. LOTV should REALLY be 4x copies. Junk could get away with 3 because of lingering souls and the clunkiness of the deck
How do you know? What if the new meta shapes up to be all aggro? LOTV sure will look silly against a field of robots and humans. Lot of bold statements in this thread from you lately.
Because LOTV is one of the things to make this deck to tick?
I have a big problem with videos where false strategies are executed from pro players (which normally play a different deck), which leads to that newer players adopt the mistakes more likely. I started watching the video and he keeps IOK in the mirror right away, after a few minutes. What should that tell us?
I think he was just testing out the deck Reid wrote about a few days ago.
I lost a lot of confidence watching him play after he cut all the bolts and kept in IOK after saying the mirror comes down to topdecking
It's not a bad list, there's only one huge thing I'd knock you for---that LOTV. LOTV should REALLY be 4x copies. Junk could get away with 3 because of lingering souls and the clunkiness of the deck
.
How does this critique make any sense when we have no legitimate idea what the metagame will look like? Online is nothing but Bloodbraid Elf and Jace decks everywhere. I'm fairly certain the next major paper tournament won't be just those decks.
I'm not sure Jund has ever ran 3x LOTV
Reid Duke is extremely against going below 4 copies, and very few lists have significant results without the whole playset
...I mean----is this really that bold of a statement or prediction?
I understand something like, "hey, I don't agree with 3x K command and cutting Pulse", but---to be called out on 3x LOTV or people suggesting 2x Dreadbores?
The regulars here have been playing this deck too long to know all of this
It's not a bad list, there's only one huge thing I'd knock you for---that LOTV. LOTV should REALLY be 4x copies. Junk could get away with 3 because of lingering souls and the clunkiness of the deck
.
How does this critique make any sense when we have no legitimate idea what the metagame will look like? Online is nothing but Bloodbraid Elf and Jace decks everywhere. I'm fairly certain the next major paper tournament won't be just those decks.
I'm not sure Jund has ever ran 3x LOTV
Reid Duke is extremely against going below 4 copies, and very few lists have significant results without the whole playset
...I mean----is this really that bold of a statement or prediction?
I understand something like, "hey, I don't agree with 3x K command and cutting Pulse", but---to be called out on 3x LOTV or people suggesting 2x Dreadbores?
The regulars here have been playing this deck too long to know all of this
I remember when regulars said people were crazy for running less than 4 abrupt decays or running less than 4 lightning bolts. Metas change, and as an “answer everything” deck, we need to be open to change in order to answer the meta.
Also, I would argue LOTV is better in junk because they have lingering souls to discard to lily.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
So after coming up with the 75 that I'm interested in trying week 1, I tried to come up with sideboard plans for certain matchups, and would like some input on some matchups. Here's the 75 that I'll be working with.
The matchups that I'm having trouble figuring out SB plans are for titanshift, grixis control, jeskai control, and u/w control.
For titanshift, cards that could come in are the 4 fulminators, duress, brutalities, pulse, and kitchen finks. Cards that can definitely come out are 1 push and abrupt decay, but I'm not sure where to go after that. Should I start cutting into the kcommands or something else? It seems now with BBE that kcommands are valued more so I guess in general I'm unsure as to when kcommands should go out.
As for the control matchups, there's a lot that I can potentially bring in. The cards that I could bring in for all 3 are the 4 fulminators, kitchen finks, LtLH, brutalities, pulse for JTMS, and duress. The nihil spellbombs can be for jeskai control and especially grixis control with the snap/kcommand looping. probably don't need to bring the spellbombs in against u/w control. Cards I know I can take out are 1 push, 1 abrupt decay, and 2 terminate. I was also thinking of taking out a bloodstained mire since that'll still put me at 24 lands, which doesn't seem bad against control. I'm not sure where to go from there. Some of the options are to shave on IoK and bolts, but is it worth taking out say all 4 bolts and 2 IoK to bring in all the stuff from the sideboard?
I defeated Martyr Proc, 2x Dredge and some Vampire brew in the final.
Deck feels smooth and efficient, but here are some concerns I still have with my list:
- Not yet sure about how many discard spells to play. They are bad cascade targets, but on the other hand necessary on t1. Didn't want to cut Thoughtseize entirely because I was expecting a lot of Jaces. Adding Brutality to the mb makes total sense now with BBE as it is simply a highly versatile discard spell.
- I might add a 25th land, could be a mountain against FoR, could be a Treetop Village for more pressure.
- Not happy with Abrupt Decay, but I feel it is necessary to answer specific cards once they entered the battlefield.
- Sideboard is still a work in progress, I feel there are too many 3cmc spell in it, but they are also the best with BBE. Definitely have to work on it in the coming days.
@lowekevin123 and @Hype_rion I like both of your lists.
The things I am also not sure right now are,
24 or 25 lands,
How many discard (at least 4, max 6),
LtLH main or side.
I do think that 4 LoTV and 4 BBE is definitely more or less set for me. BBE is just the best card in so many matchups (even against Jace) that we just need to run the playset, otherwise it wouldnt make much sense.
KCommand is at least a 2-of but could be 3 of if we cut LtLH main and put her to the side.
Sideboardwise I personally am leaning towards these cards:
I'm surprised you guys feel you need 25 lands. I'll have to test some more games this weekend and see if 24 is an issue.
My recommendation is people don't play the blooming marsh, we really want to be hitting that 4th untapped land, if we can.
4 discard makes me kinda squeamish, I cut it down to 5 and 1 CB---but 4 scares me bad.
I see a lot of us going down to 2x graveyard hate, which is fine at a small FNM, but I think dredge players are going to notice these things, they'd love to pray on jund players. Blue decks historically are massive dogs in that matchup.
I feel as though Thrun has more stock than Haz, but I can see why you'd want her
I also have been clunking up the sideboard with 3 drops and am still unsure about what a board should look like.
With the restructuring of our deck, I'm also not entirely sure how to sideboard against blue decks, it was way easier when there was no Jace or BBE.
I think we have the same issue now with the land base like before.
Before the unbans I was always advocating for 24 lands, but people played 23 land list with 3 ravines. I felt this was too greedy.
In the past, Jund lists most of the time had 25 or even 26 lands with BBE. 24 land list were only really played when we had DRS, and that is not the case anymore.
24 Lands: CMC range: 2.40-2.72 Midrange deck – You need 3 lands on turn 3 in most games (88.7%); 4 lands by turn 4 is nice (71.3%) but not necessary
25 Lands CMC range: 2.72-3.04 Midrange deck – You need your 3rd land drop (90.4%) to function and want to hit your 4th relatively often (74.7%)
26 Lands CMC range3.04-3.36 Control deck – You need your 3rd land drops (91.8%) to function and want to hit your 4th relatively often (77.9%)
Look at the comment at 24 lands: 4 land is nice but not necessary. With 4 BBE hitting 4 lands on turn 4 is absolutely necessary. Period.
EDIT: And to add, BBE helps us big time to prevent flooding, so I would generally not be afraid to run 25 lands. It may seem high, but with that many 3 drops and 4 drops now, we dont want to be playing a clunky deck which not gets to play its spells because of missing landdrops.
This is almost my exact list. You replaced a land with a collective brutality. I've been testing more, and will probably play two scooze. I'm still all about the 3x K commands for now, but I totally am not adamant about it being a must.
I can't comment on the sideboard since it's more subjective. Yours looks fine though.
I played two matches this morning
E-Tron and Temur midrange
I raced so fast game 2 against tron, BBE dropped an LOTV and the second BBE dropped a Goyf or Bob. Then I bolted to the face. Game 3 BBE pulled me ahead again.
Temur was very grindy. I mulled to 6, I bottomed my fourth land since I was on curve and figured I'd see a fourth land drop. Had the most crazy amount of value in hand but the 4th land drop prevented me from obliterating him.
Game 2, land and cards were never an issue. We are at parity for a while but he drops a Jace. BBE cascades into a K-Command and I hit it with jace, swing with bob and BBE, lose the bob, bring back a Goyf. He eventually plays another Jace and I cascade into Pulse. I LOTV his goyf and he loses
Game 3 Kitchen Finks, Goyf and LOTV just crushes him.
I've only had 1 very noticeable game in 6 matches were I really needed a land. N=too small a number, but I'll continue testing and see if the 24 lands is an issue.
BBE is absolutely bonkers. Jund's other 4 drops really don't compare to this card. Olivia and Kalitas may have use if metas become aggro creature dominated, but outside of that these cards will be stuck in my toolkit.
I do worry about how much removal we are cutting when the meta cycles into creature aggro---which will totally happen.
I think so far, a lot of jund lists are coming to the consensus of the three of our deck lists. Facebook is also beginning to get there, too.
The pros and grinders at GPS and SCG's may say otherwise, so far it's only the Jund community reaching this decklist or something very close to it.
I do think the days of us being so extremely reactive are over until new cards come out or an extremely hostile meta appears.
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How does this critique make any sense when we have no legitimate idea what the metagame will look like? Online is nothing but Bloodbraid Elf and Jace decks everywhere. I'm fairly certain the next major paper tournament won't be just those decks.
Well, this is just the complete standard manabase, so yes?
I think those differences are what will matter in the long term. Its all about the numbers now.
How do you know? What if the new meta shapes up to be all aggro? LOTV sure will look silly against a field of robots and humans. Lot of bold statements in this thread from you lately.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Treetop Village
3 Raging Ravine
1 Blooming Marsh
Creatures [14]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVMWc0Pgbt8
EDIT: Interesting to see that IoK's inability to take away Jace came up against UW Control
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I have a big problem with videos where false strategies are executed from pro players (which normally play a different deck), which leads to that newer players adopt the mistakes more likely. I started watching the video and he keeps IOK in the mirror right away, after a few minutes. What should that tell us?
I'd cut an Abrupt Decay and a Fatal Push for a LotV and Dark Confidant. If also swap the Blooming Marsh for a Twilight Mire.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
Because LOTV is one of the things to make this deck to tick?
I think he was just testing out the deck Reid wrote about a few days ago.
I lost a lot of confidence watching him play after he cut all the bolts and kept in IOK after saying the mirror comes down to topdecking
I'm not sure Jund has ever ran 3x LOTV
Reid Duke is extremely against going below 4 copies, and very few lists have significant results without the whole playset
...I mean----is this really that bold of a statement or prediction?
I understand something like, "hey, I don't agree with 3x K command and cutting Pulse", but---to be called out on 3x LOTV or people suggesting 2x Dreadbores?
The regulars here have been playing this deck too long to know all of this
I remember when regulars said people were crazy for running less than 4 abrupt decays or running less than 4 lightning bolts. Metas change, and as an “answer everything” deck, we need to be open to change in order to answer the meta.
Also, I would argue LOTV is better in junk because they have lingering souls to discard to lily.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
So after coming up with the 75 that I'm interested in trying week 1, I tried to come up with sideboard plans for certain matchups, and would like some input on some matchups. Here's the 75 that I'll be working with.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Land (25)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blooming Marsh
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
Sorcery (6)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Collective Brutality
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Duress
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
The matchups that I'm having trouble figuring out SB plans are for titanshift, grixis control, jeskai control, and u/w control.
For titanshift, cards that could come in are the 4 fulminators, duress, brutalities, pulse, and kitchen finks. Cards that can definitely come out are 1 push and abrupt decay, but I'm not sure where to go after that. Should I start cutting into the kcommands or something else? It seems now with BBE that kcommands are valued more so I guess in general I'm unsure as to when kcommands should go out.
As for the control matchups, there's a lot that I can potentially bring in. The cards that I could bring in for all 3 are the 4 fulminators, kitchen finks, LtLH, brutalities, pulse for JTMS, and duress. The nihil spellbombs can be for jeskai control and especially grixis control with the snap/kcommand looping. probably don't need to bring the spellbombs in against u/w control. Cards I know I can take out are 1 push, 1 abrupt decay, and 2 terminate. I was also thinking of taking out a bloodstained mire since that'll still put me at 24 lands, which doesn't seem bad against control. I'm not sure where to go from there. Some of the options are to shave on IoK and bolts, but is it worth taking out say all 4 bolts and 2 IoK to bring in all the stuff from the sideboard?
Open to suggestions, thanks for the help!
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalker: 5
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sorceries: 6
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Instants: 11
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Anger of the Gods
I defeated Martyr Proc, 2x Dredge and some Vampire brew in the final.
Deck feels smooth and efficient, but here are some concerns I still have with my list:
- Not yet sure about how many discard spells to play. They are bad cascade targets, but on the other hand necessary on t1. Didn't want to cut Thoughtseize entirely because I was expecting a lot of Jaces. Adding Brutality to the mb makes total sense now with BBE as it is simply a highly versatile discard spell.
- I might add a 25th land, could be a mountain against FoR, could be a Treetop Village for more pressure.
- Not happy with Abrupt Decay, but I feel it is necessary to answer specific cards once they entered the battlefield.
- Sideboard is still a work in progress, I feel there are too many 3cmc spell in it, but they are also the best with BBE. Definitely have to work on it in the coming days.
The things I am also not sure right now are,
24 or 25 lands,
How many discard (at least 4, max 6),
LtLH main or side.
I do think that 4 LoTV and 4 BBE is definitely more or less set for me. BBE is just the best card in so many matchups (even against Jace) that we just need to run the playset, otherwise it wouldnt make much sense.
KCommand is at least a 2-of but could be 3 of if we cut LtLH main and put her to the side.
Sideboardwise I personally am leaning towards these cards:
My recommendation is people don't play the blooming marsh, we really want to be hitting that 4th untapped land, if we can.
4 discard makes me kinda squeamish, I cut it down to 5 and 1 CB---but 4 scares me bad.
I see a lot of us going down to 2x graveyard hate, which is fine at a small FNM, but I think dredge players are going to notice these things, they'd love to pray on jund players. Blue decks historically are massive dogs in that matchup.
I feel as though Thrun has more stock than Haz, but I can see why you'd want her
I also have been clunking up the sideboard with 3 drops and am still unsure about what a board should look like.
With the restructuring of our deck, I'm also not entirely sure how to sideboard against blue decks, it was way easier when there was no Jace or BBE.
Before the unbans I was always advocating for 24 lands, but people played 23 land list with 3 ravines. I felt this was too greedy.
In the past, Jund lists most of the time had 25 or even 26 lands with BBE. 24 land list were only really played when we had DRS, and that is not the case anymore.
Why I address this: Frank Karsten's article.
24 Lands: CMC range: 2.40-2.72 Midrange deck – You need 3 lands on turn 3 in most games (88.7%); 4 lands by turn 4 is nice (71.3%) but not necessary
25 Lands CMC range: 2.72-3.04 Midrange deck – You need your 3rd land drop (90.4%) to function and want to hit your 4th relatively often (74.7%)
26 Lands CMC range3.04-3.36 Control deck – You need your 3rd land drops (91.8%) to function and want to hit your 4th relatively often (77.9%)
Look at the comment at 24 lands: 4 land is nice but not necessary. With 4 BBE hitting 4 lands on turn 4 is absolutely necessary. Period.
EDIT: And to add, BBE helps us big time to prevent flooding, so I would generally not be afraid to run 25 lands. It may seem high, but with that many 3 drops and 4 drops now, we dont want to be playing a clunky deck which not gets to play its spells because of missing landdrops.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Twilight Mire
Creatures [14]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
This is almost my exact list. You replaced a land with a collective brutality. I've been testing more, and will probably play two scooze. I'm still all about the 3x K commands for now, but I totally am not adamant about it being a must.
I can't comment on the sideboard since it's more subjective. Yours looks fine though.
I played two matches this morning
E-Tron and Temur midrange
I raced so fast game 2 against tron, BBE dropped an LOTV and the second BBE dropped a Goyf or Bob. Then I bolted to the face. Game 3 BBE pulled me ahead again.
Temur was very grindy. I mulled to 6, I bottomed my fourth land since I was on curve and figured I'd see a fourth land drop. Had the most crazy amount of value in hand but the 4th land drop prevented me from obliterating him.
Game 2, land and cards were never an issue. We are at parity for a while but he drops a Jace. BBE cascades into a K-Command and I hit it with jace, swing with bob and BBE, lose the bob, bring back a Goyf. He eventually plays another Jace and I cascade into Pulse. I LOTV his goyf and he loses
Game 3 Kitchen Finks, Goyf and LOTV just crushes him.
I've only had 1 very noticeable game in 6 matches were I really needed a land. N=too small a number, but I'll continue testing and see if the 24 lands is an issue.
BBE is absolutely bonkers. Jund's other 4 drops really don't compare to this card. Olivia and Kalitas may have use if metas become aggro creature dominated, but outside of that these cards will be stuck in my toolkit.
I do worry about how much removal we are cutting when the meta cycles into creature aggro---which will totally happen.
I think so far, a lot of jund lists are coming to the consensus of the three of our deck lists. Facebook is also beginning to get there, too.
The pros and grinders at GPS and SCG's may say otherwise, so far it's only the Jund community reaching this decklist or something very close to it.
I do think the days of us being so extremely reactive are over until new cards come out or an extremely hostile meta appears.