I get what you’re saying, but undiscovered paradise isn’t modern legal. Island or Wanderwine Hub is a suitable replacement for cavern. Caver is like min/maxing the deck. You’re going to run just fine without it, but you may pick up percentage points here and there. Also, I don’t think we need to work that hard to make deprive work. Bouncing and island to replay it that turn or next turn is just fine.
I get what you’re saying, but undiscovered paradise isn’t modern legal. Island or Wanderwine Hub is a suitable replacement for cavern. Caver is like min/maxing the deck. You’re going to run just fine without it, but you may pick up percentage points here and there. Also, I don’t think we need to work that hard to make deprive work. Bouncing and island to replay it that turn or next turn is just fine.
D'oh! Right, that's Visions.
I'm looking to get in a fair amount (50% or so) of nonbasic land. I have a bunch of the tap lands, but I'd like to avoid them if possible, and I don't have a great deal of the Dominaria lands yet (though 4 Hinterland Harbor are incoming, before I opened a fat pack and got an extra two I don't need anymore :P). I might trade for a Minamo and Oboro before I start playing the deck. Then all I'll have to do is hope I get an island in the opening hand and mana should be good.
So i was just about to finish putting merfolk together when i got distracted by shiny things called work. now that i got some more free time im going to play a little more im thinking.
Anyways i pretty much left before ixalan came out and im seeing some weird green looking merfolk!
Anyways can someone give me a quick run down on how the deck is developing? Im thinking id like to stick to mono blue for the moment. Whats the advantages of the green? what kind of match up does it make better
I definitely recommend mono-U Merfolk above all other versions of the deck for competitive play - Master of Waves is excellent in the current metagame.
I'm looking to get in a fair amount (50% or so) of nonbasic land. I have a bunch of the tap lands, but I'd like to avoid them if possible, and I don't have a great deal of the Dominaria lands yet (though 4 Hinterland Harbor are incoming, before I opened a fat pack and got an extra two I don't need anymore :P). I might trade for a Minamo and Oboro before I start playing the deck. Then all I'll have to do is hope I get an island in the opening hand and mana should be good.
What are you looking to accomplish with nonbasics? I mean 50% isn't out of the ordinary if you're 10 island, 4 Mutavault, 2 Cavern, Oboro, Minamo, 2 Wanderwine Hub, but I wouldn't run Hinterland Harbor just for the sake of running nonbasics. Your last sentence sums up exactly why you shouldn't run those. You're going to have opening hands without islands and it's going to bite you. You shouldn't have to hope you have an island in your opener, you should just construct your deck so that isn't a factor.
What are you looking to accomplish with nonbasics? I mean 50% isn't out of the ordinary if you're 10 island, 4 Mutavault, 2 Cavern, Oboro, Minamo, 2 Wanderwine Hub, but I wouldn't run Hinterland Harbor just for the sake of running nonbasics. Your last sentence sums up exactly why you shouldn't run those. You're going to have opening hands without islands and it's going to bite you. You shouldn't have to hope you have an island in your opener, you should just construct your deck so that isn't a factor.
I wish I had two Caverns. As for the Harbors, I wanted to leave room for green utility spells in the SB without having to put land there too. Wanderwine Hub is workable, though, it's cheap, and I like the untap condition a lot more. Also, I want nonbasic blue for Echoing Truth in case of Choke, or to counter control or other merfolk decks.
I totally get the budget aspect. Caverns are ridiculously expensive right now. But a couple Harbors, even the full set of Harbors, isn't going to be enough to cast your green spells out of the board, and Cavern won't help with that either. You're going to need a fetch mana base and Botanical Sanctums to do that, so take that into consideration. Also, I know Choke is the boogeyman, but a filter on green sideboard enchantments on mtgtop8 shows that only 2.9% of all decks run 1-2 choke in the board over the past 2 months. Unless you know people are packing choke in your meta, I wouldn't be too worried about it.
Tropical (UG) Fish was not a "failed experiment;" it was a good deck that performed very well in its meta for a while. Basic (Mono-U) Fish is not as fast, but has shown a lot more staying power in the current direction.
As for Islands versus non-basics, you're weighing the odds of Choke, Boil, and the mirror versus the odds of needing true-UU (Deprive), or myriad non-basic hate. I think a few Caverns is a fine choice, but hardly necessary, and may depend on build particulars.
Adding 2x Wanderwine Hub is fine, especially if you see more Choke than Blood Moon in your local meta, but splashing green for SB cards is likely to do more harm than good.
That said I've tried every splash and a pretty wide variety of rogue builds so I'd not discourage anybody from experimenting. It's fun, educational and may occasionally bear fruit. But it is worth taking note of others experiences as it can help to flesh out and give better context to your individual results.
Do you think that the nikahu's list has potential in this meta or that it is better to go back to catchers?
I like it. It's not quite as fast a starter, but the couple extra counters and Dismembers should easily slow down most decks. My only quibble with it is that it doesn't have enough Reejes; I'd cut one of the MoW's for another Reej.
I'd also like to see it against more removal-oriented decks; a couple of those he played against were meatpuppets.
ETA: Note that I'm referring to the mono-U deck he uses in his first Trickster-playtesting video, not the one where he's trying Chalice of the Void (another set I'd love to own...).
I've tried a lot of different lists without Cursecatcher (Nikachu's included). My conclusion is that we shouldn't play Merfolk without a 1-drop creature. Our deck become SO MUCH slower. On the other hand, I'm not sure if the 1-drop should be Cursecatcher or another fish (Nikachu is trying Tideshaper Mystic)...
I've tried a lot of different lists without Cursecatcher (Nikachu's included). My conclusion is that we shouldn't play Merfolk without a 1-drop creature. Our deck become SO MUCH slower. On the other hand, I'm not sure if the 1-drop should be Cursecatcher or another fish (Nikachu is trying Tideshaper Mystic)...
Catcher is far less effective against a lot of decks than Spell Pierce. Once it's out, they're warned to keep one mana available, which might be a minor slowdown but isn't particularly effective. Pierce leaves them in doubt, and is tougher to defend against.
Even if you Vial the Catcher out and then immediately use it, it's not happening until turn 2 at the earliest. Sure, it's a body, but with MoW there's not much shortage of them either.
Tropical (UG) Fish was not a "failed experiment;" it was a good deck that performed very well in its meta for a while. Basic (Mono-U) Fish is not as fast, but has shown a lot more staying power in the current direction.
As for Islands versus non-basics, you're weighing the odds of Choke, Boil, and the mirror versus the odds of needing true-UU (Deprive), or myriad non-basic hate. I think a few Caverns is a fine choice, but hardly necessary, and may depend on build particulars.
So would you consider UG merfolk successful? What results did it put up? When did it perform - during what period?
I've tried a lot of different lists without Cursecatcher (Nikachu's included). My conclusion is that we shouldn't play Merfolk without a 1-drop creature. Our deck become SO MUCH slower. On the other hand, I'm not sure if the 1-drop should be Cursecatcher or another fish (Nikachu is trying Tideshaper Mystic)...
My initial thoughts when looking over the Nikachu list was that cutting Cursecatcher was a mistake. However, ive tried a few different configurations post-Dominaria and Spell Pierce, Dismember and Vial do give you plenty of turn 1 plays IME. After a reasonable amount of testing im playing 71 out of the 75 of Nikachu's list - with the only difference being sb counters
I'm definitely not married to Cursecatcher at the moment but also struggle with the idea of no 1 drop. Mystic is not the solution for me. I'd probably reach back and grab another Trickster in Cosi.
And I would NOT cut MoW for another Reej. 6 months ago with Push, Brutality and Last Hope making the rounds I was looking to cut it entirely, but in this meta I want all 4 MoW.
@HugeCanoe: Tropical Fish outperformed Basic Fish last autumn. The format was experiencing an increase in black, white, and Artifact (Ballista) removal versus red, as well as an increase in decks that Tropical Fish could go under but Basic Fish couldn't go over. If you look back to this time period in the thread, there were several pages of conflict over whether one deck was superior to the other. Eventually these trends reversed, and Basic Fish is again dominant.
As for 1-drops: Cosi's Trickster has that problem of being just a 1-mana 1/1 after about turn 4, but at that point Cursecatcher isn't doing much either. I definitely feel weird not having countermagic, and even the tempo of holding off many sweepers (Anger, Wrath) for one turn just by being present matters.
I'm still torn between the Architect/Ballista builds and the Reejerey/Harbringer builds. The former has such powerful haymakers, but Harbinger is quite good against the overrepresented Hollow One decks.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
D'oh! Right, that's Visions.
I'm looking to get in a fair amount (50% or so) of nonbasic land. I have a bunch of the tap lands, but I'd like to avoid them if possible, and I don't have a great deal of the Dominaria lands yet (though 4 Hinterland Harbor are incoming, before I opened a fat pack and got an extra two I don't need anymore :P). I might trade for a Minamo and Oboro before I start playing the deck. Then all I'll have to do is hope I get an island in the opening hand and mana should be good.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
So i was just about to finish putting merfolk together when i got distracted by shiny things called work. now that i got some more free time im going to play a little more im thinking.
Anyways i pretty much left before ixalan came out and im seeing some weird green looking merfolk!
Anyways can someone give me a quick run down on how the deck is developing? Im thinking id like to stick to mono blue for the moment. Whats the advantages of the green? what kind of match up does it make better
UWx control/midrange
Bant Eldrazi
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
What are you looking to accomplish with nonbasics? I mean 50% isn't out of the ordinary if you're 10 island, 4 Mutavault, 2 Cavern, Oboro, Minamo, 2 Wanderwine Hub, but I wouldn't run Hinterland Harbor just for the sake of running nonbasics. Your last sentence sums up exactly why you shouldn't run those. You're going to have opening hands without islands and it's going to bite you. You shouldn't have to hope you have an island in your opener, you should just construct your deck so that isn't a factor.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I wish I had two Caverns. As for the Harbors, I wanted to leave room for green utility spells in the SB without having to put land there too. Wanderwine Hub is workable, though, it's cheap, and I like the untap condition a lot more. Also, I want nonbasic blue for Echoing Truth in case of Choke, or to counter control or other merfolk decks.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
As for Islands versus non-basics, you're weighing the odds of Choke, Boil, and the mirror versus the odds of needing true-UU (Deprive), or myriad non-basic hate. I think a few Caverns is a fine choice, but hardly necessary, and may depend on build particulars.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
12 Island
4 Mutavault
2 Cavern
1 Oboro
1 Minamo
Adding 2x Wanderwine Hub is fine, especially if you see more Choke than Blood Moon in your local meta, but splashing green for SB cards is likely to do more harm than good.
That said I've tried every splash and a pretty wide variety of rogue builds so I'd not discourage anybody from experimenting. It's fun, educational and may occasionally bear fruit. But it is worth taking note of others experiences as it can help to flesh out and give better context to your individual results.
I like it. It's not quite as fast a starter, but the couple extra counters and Dismembers should easily slow down most decks. My only quibble with it is that it doesn't have enough Reejes; I'd cut one of the MoW's for another Reej.
I'd also like to see it against more removal-oriented decks; a couple of those he played against were meatpuppets.
ETA: Note that I'm referring to the mono-U deck he uses in his first Trickster-playtesting video, not the one where he's trying Chalice of the Void (another set I'd love to own...).
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
Catcher is far less effective against a lot of decks than Spell Pierce. Once it's out, they're warned to keep one mana available, which might be a minor slowdown but isn't particularly effective. Pierce leaves them in doubt, and is tougher to defend against.
Even if you Vial the Catcher out and then immediately use it, it's not happening until turn 2 at the earliest. Sure, it's a body, but with MoW there's not much shortage of them either.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)
So would you consider UG merfolk successful? What results did it put up? When did it perform - during what period?
UWx control/midrange
Bant Eldrazi
My initial thoughts when looking over the Nikachu list was that cutting Cursecatcher was a mistake. However, ive tried a few different configurations post-Dominaria and Spell Pierce, Dismember and Vial do give you plenty of turn 1 plays IME. After a reasonable amount of testing im playing 71 out of the 75 of Nikachu's list - with the only difference being sb counters
UWx control/midrange
Bant Eldrazi
And I would NOT cut MoW for another Reej. 6 months ago with Push, Brutality and Last Hope making the rounds I was looking to cut it entirely, but in this meta I want all 4 MoW.
As for 1-drops: Cosi's Trickster has that problem of being just a 1-mana 1/1 after about turn 4, but at that point Cursecatcher isn't doing much either. I definitely feel weird not having countermagic, and even the tempo of holding off many sweepers (Anger, Wrath) for one turn just by being present matters.
I'm still torn between the Architect/Ballista builds and the Reejerey/Harbringer builds. The former has such powerful haymakers, but Harbinger is quite good against the overrepresented Hollow One decks.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Better be sure to have some counterspell support for him...he'd be one of the easier mobs to remove.
Standard: Fileted By Fish (UG aggro Merfolk), A Fine Kettle of Fish (UG swarm Merfolk), The Deep Blue Sea-People II (Umidrange Merfolk/Wizards),
Greek Fire (UR Wizards), Riptide (U Tempo)