hi! just picking this deck since I already had most of the pieces. Just read the last ~10 pages of this thread and the primer and I have some questions:
1) what's the way to execute infinite scry 1 in paper? do you take your deck and split wherever you want without changing the order of anything?
2) is linvala worth it as a sideboard card? I really like it, but it seems like we're already favored against eldrazi and we already have a thousand cards for the mirror
3) Why is no one playing with selfless spirit in the maindeck? It's a clean way to counter a wrath effect and plays well with rallier. It's good at breaking board stalls too, since it flies.
4) what is the consensus on murderous redcap? I guess that after going for infinite life you can scry into infinite bolster and kill that way...
On the saffi/rallier topic, I really like rallier in this shell but I'm not that sure about saffi. With other GW decks I often felt too slow but rallier+seer in this deck is fast value. Meanwhile, saffi doesn't really do a lot... I don't have many games with the deck so don't take this opinion as anything relevant, just my first impression...
hi! just picking this deck since I already had most of the pieces. Just read the last ~10 pages of this thread and the primer and I have some questions:
1) what's the way to execute infinite scry 1 in paper? do you take your deck and split wherever you want without changing the order of anything?
2) is linvala worth it as a sideboard card? I really like it, but it seems like we're already favored against eldrazi and we already have a thousand cards for the mirror
3) Why is no one playing with selfless spirit in the maindeck? It's a clean way to counter a wrath effect and plays well with rallier. It's good at breaking board stalls too, since it flies.
4) what is the consensus on murderous redcap? I guess that after going for infinite life you can scry into infinite bolster and kill that way...
On the saffi/rallier topic, I really like rallier in this shell but I'm not that sure about saffi. With other GW decks I often felt too slow but rallier+seer in this deck is fast value. Meanwhile, saffi doesn't really do a lot... I don't have many games with the deck so don't take this opinion as anything relevant, just my first impression...
1) Yes the appropriate shortcut for infinite scry is cut to the card you want on top.
2) Linvala is eh. Wouldn't do it unless tailored to the meta.
3) Don't have a lot of flex slots with voices, but I might try a selfless in place of a 3rd voice.
4) I don't think I will play redcap with rallier. just not enough room. But we'll see after lots of testing. no consensus yet.
I have the deck, but since this deck is a nightmare on mtgo I pretty much have to get practice in person
Real talk, is the Rallier/Saffi version better as of right now, or is this a flavor of the month thing and should be using trusted Red-Cap combo to win it out?
I'm guessing the voices and ralliers and trackers are simply being used because of this slower, fairer meta, correct?
I have the deck, but since this deck is a nightmare on mtgo I pretty much have to get practice in person
Real talk, is the Rallier/Saffi version better as of right now, or is this a flavor of the month thing and should be using trusted Red-Cap combo to win it out?
I'm guessing the voices and ralliers and trackers are simply being used because of this slower, fairer meta, correct?
The saffi/rallier/voice version should be the fastest and most resilient but give up some consistency of cocoing into witness.
No one should be playing trackers except in the SB in my opinion. They're just not what the deck is doing except as a board target.
I think Eternal Witness is far better than both. It's necessary to make Collected Company truly great in the deck, as there aren't a high number of impactful hits. The logic os you get a reroll when Company hits Eternal Witness + blank. Neither Tracker or Rallier can have the same effect. I always felt that for game1 the deck is combo first and grind second, and Eternal Witness help with the combo part by making Company better when trying to race another deck (by helping see more cards and find combo pieces). The deck doesn't need the ramp (main upside of Rallier) or has enough disruption to make a long game with Tracker a great option against an open field, at least not in game 1.
For me, running less than 3 Eternal Witness in the main is a big deck constructionmistake, and running any copies of Rallier or Tracker in the maindeck can only be justified as metagame calls or trying to open up sideboard slots. Those two cards don't help with your main game plan for game 1.
Modern is fast. In any but the most grindy matchups I simply never have time to eternal witness anything back, so i have to board them out. Rallier also gives you free mana along with a card.
I was going to try Aegis of the Gods for Chordable protection against Valakut. Anyone tried this? What would be the optimal timing for the Chord? Will a Chord for Aegis in response to a Scapeshift cast work? Or do I need to get Aegis on the battlefield before opponent Scapeshifts? I guess this is also a rules/stack question...
I was going to try Aegis of the Gods for Chordable protection against Valakut. Anyone tried this? What would be the optimal timing for the Chord? Will a Chord for Aegis in response to a Scapeshift cast work? Or do I need to get Aegis on the battlefield before opponent Scapeshifts? I guess this is also a rules/stack question...
I believe they can use one of the triggers to kill Aegis of the Gods, then kill you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RGTron UGInfect URStorm WUBRAd Nauseam BRGrishoalbrand URGScapeshift WBGAbzan Company WUBRGAmulet Titan BRGLiving End WGBogles
I was going to try Aegis of the Gods for Chordable protection against Valakut. Anyone tried this? What would be the optimal timing for the Chord? Will a Chord for Aegis in response to a Scapeshift cast work? Or do I need to get Aegis on the battlefield before opponent Scapeshifts? I guess this is also a rules/stack question...
However, when player casts and resolves Scapeshift, he must declare each target with Valakut triggers, then you can chord for Aegis in response so, basicly, if he doesnt have removal for ur Aegis, each trigger of Valakut will fizzle.
Aegis actually works, since triggers need to have a target to be put on the stack, and with Aegis out, you are not a valid target.
However, that means they will kill all your creatures, maybe including the Aegis, so you're left with nothing and they can probably just as well win next turn..
You can chord for it when they chose their targets and buy yourself a turn though..
So I'm interested in this deck but I have a budget question (sorry!). I'm hesitant to buy into some of the pieces with MM3 so close. How much does this deck lose by playing without the Hierarchs and Verdant Catacombs? I have Khans fetches so that's an easy if awkward sub, but for Hierarch I lose the exalted and a color for something like Avacyn's Pilgrim or Arbor Elf, and I'm not sure how big a deal that is. At some point I might as well look at other decks.
Also, have the Archangel of Thune and Redcap combos fallen out of favor entirely? Don't see them in many lists.
Not having noble hierarch's will probably lose you a couple of percentage points but nothing major. Avacyn's Pilgrim is a better substitute if you are expecting to run into blood moon, otherwise I think Arbor Elf is the better choice.
I'm not sure what the proper substitute land base is for khans fetches, as white is a lot more important than black in most builds, but not being able to access a basic swamp off a fetch could make things difficult. Could someone else with more experience chime in on this?
There isn't much point in running a basic swamp if it can't be fetched. Personally I just replaced it with a 3rd basic forest, which has worked ok. Avacyn's pilgrim is a better substitute than arbor elf. Arbor elf requires having a forest, and can't make white unless you have a temple garden. While normally this isn't an issue, it does come up too often for arbor elf to strike me as a viable substitute. Also it is more important to be able to make white than green since we already have green if we can cast a mana dork (which is why elvish mystic mostly worse than avacyn's pilgrim.)
The deck is tight on room so a lot of people have been cutting murderous redcap and relying on infinite bolster triggers to provide infinite damage. Archangel of thune needs spike feeder to go infinite and at the moment graveyard hate doesn't seem so prevalent that this combo is necessary.
Link, verdant catacombs are definitely not being reprinted in a modern masters set, that's a huge cash cow and you'd be insane to think WOTC would miss out on that business opportunity. People have been waiting for catacombs to be reprinted for years now, you may as well pull that trigger, bud.
Alright, theres been enough budget talk in this thread. This thread is about playing magic, not buying cards. Yes some cards are better than others, and their cost is higher. We have a budget sub. Please use that.
I have to say that playing with Rallier only a little bit has sold me on this card. As a result, I'm trying a bit more of the fair valuetown approach to the deck. I really like Severson's build in the recent GP Vancouver Top8, though. Much more traditional with the toolbox creatures main. He doesn't run Voice and only 2 Ralliers. But he does run Thune/Feeder main.
So just got home from Vancouver where i ended up with a disappointing 5-4 finish. I gotta say it was a good call for the meta. a lot of burn and a lot of eldrazi. i unfortunately ran into some hateful decks for my losses.
match 1 Loss to tron 0-2
he had natural tron on turn 3 both games and even though i had comboed off t3 i never got to untap with a murderous red cap thanks to a ugin.
match 2 burn 2-0
game 1 he kept what had to be a loose hand cause he never saw a second land and i stabalized with 3 finks by turn 4.
game 2 he came out hard and tapped out to put me to 4 life with 2x goblin guides. i cracked and shocked myself to 1 and combod off after watching his grin fade.
match 3 bant eldrazi 2-0
game 1 he kept a slow hand and was able to keep me off combo but having a couple 5/6 kitchen finks got the job done
game 2 turn 3 saffi/rallier combo with ana on board allowed me to swing lethal with my birds.
match 4 grixis control 1-2 (2-2)
game 1 was a tight grindy game that was a little insane, he didnt draw any creatures outside of snap caster for several turns and i didnt see my combo, but i had enough mana to activate 2x gavony townships a turn. after having the team tapped for 6 turns via cryptic i was finally able to swing for lethal.
game 2 kept a good fast hand that would allow me to combo off turn 4 with some redundincy. which perceeded to get picked apart with hand disruption and counter magic. t4 tasigur for 1 mana did the heavy lifting and on to game 3
game 3 was a repeat of game 2. i honestly considered playing bosejui for just this kind of match up. a couple uncounterable spells would have gone the distance here.
match 5 merfolk 2-0 (3-2)
game 1 he tried to strangle my mana but my birds and hierarchs did the lifting for me. he didnt have a vial at all until turn 3 so i didnt feel a lot of pressure and was able to combo off shortly after turn 5
game 2 vial on turn 1 followed by vial on turn 2. was met by reclamation sage on my turn 2 followed by qasali pridemage on turn 3. was able to combo off shortly after that thanks to a timely CoCo.
match 6 affinity 2-0 (4-2)
game 1 was turn 3 combo with melira onboard, he didnt find removal the next round and moved to game 2
game 2 was a little harder, he slowed me down when i had to chord for a burrenton forge tender to deal with his whipflare. he almost got there but thanks to a eternal witness i was able to get the chord back and grab my seer to comobo off just before he was about to deal lethal
match 7 dredge 2-0 (5-2)
game 1 he mulled to 4 and i kept a slower hand not knowing what he was on. he wasnt able to get any creatures into his graveyard and i was on a lot of mana dorks and little gas. i finally landed a kitchen finks and was pumping the team up with township. he tried to conflagrate me for 7 one round and was unable to put 7 more cards into his hand for a second.
game 2 i drew my hand and saw turn 3 combo and a surgical extraction. he didnt have anything to deal with any of those things
match 8 jeskai nahiri 1-2 (5-3)
game 1 he mulls to 4 and i only see 1 land from him before i combo off. really not sure what i was up against at that point
game 2 well he keeps 7 and i mull to 5. i quickly find out what he is playing after he anger of the gods my board that he is playing nahiri. t4 nahiri and an empty board on my side doesnt work well apparently
game 3 i keep a strong hand and he mulls to 6. everything i land that is important is either met with a path or a bolt. his turn 4 nahiri is met with a maelstrom pulse. his turn 5 nahiri and path were able to keep me off the board for the rest of it and he swings with ol emrakul to wipe out my mana base and do 15 to me
match 9 merfolk 1-2 (5-4)
game 1 was a repeat of my earlier games vs merfolk. no vial, he tries to attack my mana base and the birds do the lifting while i am able to combo off without much pressure
game 2 his vial on turn 1 did a lot of work for him and he was able to get some really big fish on to the board and island walked his way to the win.
game 3 was a good hand, 1 bird, 2 land and 2 pieces of the combo plus a chord and a path. he is able to strangle my mana and bounce my birds so i cant cast anything as i didnt draw any more mana, and casually ignore 2/3 of the combo on board.
all in all it was some really good magic and i think the deck did pretty good. most games i felt like i was in them with the exception of the last. Grixis control was a tough one as i usually feel thats a good one for us, but the amount of removal he was packing and counter magic was hard to deal with. push really helped that deck out im thinking.
rallier combo is nice but im not sure its something i want going forward. There were a couple times where rallier was just a 3/2 with no value. I think i need to play with it more as i only tested it for a week before i went to this tourney.
i actually had close to the same deck list with the guy who made top 8 this weekend before the tourney but cut thune/feeder to make room for the rallier. i found that there is still alot of graveyard hate out there and having access to a non-graveyard combo feels good at times.
1) what's the way to execute infinite scry 1 in paper? do you take your deck and split wherever you want without changing the order of anything?
2) is linvala worth it as a sideboard card? I really like it, but it seems like we're already favored against eldrazi and we already have a thousand cards for the mirror
3) Why is no one playing with selfless spirit in the maindeck? It's a clean way to counter a wrath effect and plays well with rallier. It's good at breaking board stalls too, since it flies.
4) what is the consensus on murderous redcap? I guess that after going for infinite life you can scry into infinite bolster and kill that way...
On the saffi/rallier topic, I really like rallier in this shell but I'm not that sure about saffi. With other GW decks I often felt too slow but rallier+seer in this deck is fast value. Meanwhile, saffi doesn't really do a lot... I don't have many games with the deck so don't take this opinion as anything relevant, just my first impression...
L: Maverick
1) Yes the appropriate shortcut for infinite scry is cut to the card you want on top.
2) Linvala is eh. Wouldn't do it unless tailored to the meta.
3) Don't have a lot of flex slots with voices, but I might try a selfless in place of a 3rd voice.
4) I don't think I will play redcap with rallier. just not enough room. But we'll see after lots of testing. no consensus yet.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Real talk, is the Rallier/Saffi version better as of right now, or is this a flavor of the month thing and should be using trusted Red-Cap combo to win it out?
I'm guessing the voices and ralliers and trackers are simply being used because of this slower, fairer meta, correct?
The saffi/rallier/voice version should be the fastest and most resilient but give up some consistency of cocoing into witness.
No one should be playing trackers except in the SB in my opinion. They're just not what the deck is doing except as a board target.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Modern is fast. In any but the most grindy matchups I simply never have time to eternal witness anything back, so i have to board them out. Rallier also gives you free mana along with a card.
I believe they can use one of the triggers to kill Aegis of the Gods, then kill you.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
However, when player casts and resolves Scapeshift, he must declare each target with Valakut triggers, then you can chord for Aegis in response so, basicly, if he doesnt have removal for ur Aegis, each trigger of Valakut will fizzle.
However, that means they will kill all your creatures, maybe including the Aegis, so you're left with nothing and they can probably just as well win next turn..
You can chord for it when they chose their targets and buy yourself a turn though..
Also, have the Archangel of Thune and Redcap combos fallen out of favor entirely? Don't see them in many lists.
I'm not sure what the proper substitute land base is for khans fetches, as white is a lot more important than black in most builds, but not being able to access a basic swamp off a fetch could make things difficult. Could someone else with more experience chime in on this?
The deck is tight on room so a lot of people have been cutting murderous redcap and relying on infinite bolster triggers to provide infinite damage. Archangel of thune needs spike feeder to go infinite and at the moment graveyard hate doesn't seem so prevalent that this combo is necessary.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Wall of Roots
2 Viscera Seer
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Voice of Resurgence
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Renegade Rallier
2 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenger Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
Lands (23)
2 Gavony Township
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Razorverge Thicket
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Spellskite
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Spike Feeder
1 Archangel of Thune
I have to say that playing with Rallier only a little bit has sold me on this card. As a result, I'm trying a bit more of the fair valuetown approach to the deck. I really like Severson's build in the recent GP Vancouver Top8, though. Much more traditional with the toolbox creatures main. He doesn't run Voice and only 2 Ralliers. But he does run Thune/Feeder main.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
match 1 Loss to tron 0-2
he had natural tron on turn 3 both games and even though i had comboed off t3 i never got to untap with a murderous red cap thanks to a ugin.
match 2 burn 2-0
game 1 he kept what had to be a loose hand cause he never saw a second land and i stabalized with 3 finks by turn 4.
game 2 he came out hard and tapped out to put me to 4 life with 2x goblin guides. i cracked and shocked myself to 1 and combod off after watching his grin fade.
match 3 bant eldrazi 2-0
game 1 he kept a slow hand and was able to keep me off combo but having a couple 5/6 kitchen finks got the job done
game 2 turn 3 saffi/rallier combo with ana on board allowed me to swing lethal with my birds.
match 4 grixis control 1-2 (2-2)
game 1 was a tight grindy game that was a little insane, he didnt draw any creatures outside of snap caster for several turns and i didnt see my combo, but i had enough mana to activate 2x gavony townships a turn. after having the team tapped for 6 turns via cryptic i was finally able to swing for lethal.
game 2 kept a good fast hand that would allow me to combo off turn 4 with some redundincy. which perceeded to get picked apart with hand disruption and counter magic. t4 tasigur for 1 mana did the heavy lifting and on to game 3
game 3 was a repeat of game 2. i honestly considered playing bosejui for just this kind of match up. a couple uncounterable spells would have gone the distance here.
match 5 merfolk 2-0 (3-2)
game 1 he tried to strangle my mana but my birds and hierarchs did the lifting for me. he didnt have a vial at all until turn 3 so i didnt feel a lot of pressure and was able to combo off shortly after turn 5
game 2 vial on turn 1 followed by vial on turn 2. was met by reclamation sage on my turn 2 followed by qasali pridemage on turn 3. was able to combo off shortly after that thanks to a timely CoCo.
match 6 affinity 2-0 (4-2)
game 1 was turn 3 combo with melira onboard, he didnt find removal the next round and moved to game 2
game 2 was a little harder, he slowed me down when i had to chord for a burrenton forge tender to deal with his whipflare. he almost got there but thanks to a eternal witness i was able to get the chord back and grab my seer to comobo off just before he was about to deal lethal
match 7 dredge 2-0 (5-2)
game 1 he mulled to 4 and i kept a slower hand not knowing what he was on. he wasnt able to get any creatures into his graveyard and i was on a lot of mana dorks and little gas. i finally landed a kitchen finks and was pumping the team up with township. he tried to conflagrate me for 7 one round and was unable to put 7 more cards into his hand for a second.
game 2 i drew my hand and saw turn 3 combo and a surgical extraction. he didnt have anything to deal with any of those things
match 8 jeskai nahiri 1-2 (5-3)
game 1 he mulls to 4 and i only see 1 land from him before i combo off. really not sure what i was up against at that point
game 2 well he keeps 7 and i mull to 5. i quickly find out what he is playing after he anger of the gods my board that he is playing nahiri. t4 nahiri and an empty board on my side doesnt work well apparently
game 3 i keep a strong hand and he mulls to 6. everything i land that is important is either met with a path or a bolt. his turn 4 nahiri is met with a maelstrom pulse. his turn 5 nahiri and path were able to keep me off the board for the rest of it and he swings with ol emrakul to wipe out my mana base and do 15 to me
match 9 merfolk 1-2 (5-4)
game 1 was a repeat of my earlier games vs merfolk. no vial, he tries to attack my mana base and the birds do the lifting while i am able to combo off without much pressure
game 2 his vial on turn 1 did a lot of work for him and he was able to get some really big fish on to the board and island walked his way to the win.
game 3 was a good hand, 1 bird, 2 land and 2 pieces of the combo plus a chord and a path. he is able to strangle my mana and bounce my birds so i cant cast anything as i didnt draw any more mana, and casually ignore 2/3 of the combo on board.
all in all it was some really good magic and i think the deck did pretty good. most games i felt like i was in them with the exception of the last. Grixis control was a tough one as i usually feel thats a good one for us, but the amount of removal he was packing and counter magic was hard to deal with. push really helped that deck out im thinking.
rallier combo is nice but im not sure its something i want going forward. There were a couple times where rallier was just a 3/2 with no value. I think i need to play with it more as i only tested it for a week before i went to this tourney.
i actually had close to the same deck list with the guy who made top 8 this weekend before the tourney but cut thune/feeder to make room for the rallier. i found that there is still alot of graveyard hate out there and having access to a non-graveyard combo feels good at times.