I think the version I want to go with is either 5C or the 4 Freebooter, 2 MM, 2 Anafanza, 2 Thalia V2.0 and hopefully somehow 1 Falconer package.
Yeah, I think either one will serve you well. I think if I were playing Saturday, I'd be on the 4 Freebooter Bant Black list mainly for the slightly more stable mana.
Thanks for the link! I'm glad to see him pointing out just how good Reflector Mage is. Aside from the core cards (Champ/Lieutenant/Noble), it is the next most important card in the deck. Maybe I'll try a list like his again at some point, but I wasn't having any luck with it the last time I tried. I'm not a fan of combos anyway, especially on MTGO.
Joel Larsson deck guide on Channelfireball for Bant Red Reliquary Combo Humans. No recommendation, just sharing info.
This was pretty much the list I ran at the PPTQ. Nice writeup, particularly the sideboard discussion. Good to see Humans getting the recommendation over other Company decks!
I caught up to the new deck idea floated on here and took kingcars's Bant Black list to FNM and went 3-0.
I don't think I played the decks the deck is best against in Burn, Elves and Merfolk but it was interesting nonetheless.
My brief thoughts:
- Unclaimed Territory is great, definitely makes the four colours work better than before.
- Kitesail Freebooter merits more testing. There's space in lists for good 2 drops for sure. I only saw mine against Burn, which helped as you can try and plan around what they are going to do, as well as forcing them into using a spell to get their other one back (so it kind of worked like an Arashin Cleric). I imagine grabbing a key card from Scapeshift or Storm feels great with this guy.
- Anafenza is as I remembered her, something you're always happy to see, and your opponents definitely aren't. I played a friendly game vs. Dredge and it prompted a scoop. I ran 2 Anafenza to try and avoid CoCoing into the second one, and put a Mirran Crusader in, which tore Elves apart in the first game; Turn 1 Hierarch into Crusader, Turn 3 CoCo for Hierarch and Lieutenant, swing for 10
- I put Meddling Mages in the side and ran Spell Quellers main. They're definitely a bit weaker in a list with Unclaimed Territory over other lands, but on paper they seem ideal as a disruptive creature in Modern, they form a great 1-2 with Reflector Mage and scare people once they are caught by the first one.
Overall it seems like a good list, I'll definitely play it again.
Hi all, long time Death and Taxes player, haven't played the deck for a long time and I've been itching to sleeve up my noble heirarchs again. Looking long and hard at humans since kite sail got printed, wondering if the deck is fast enough to get under stuff like Eldrazi Tron and Valakut or if it's primarily a deck that preys on the fair matchups. There's a lot of Eldrazi Tron and Valakut in the meta, how well do you guys feel the deck is positioned to attack those strategies?
i think humans have a good match up against e-tron. Reflector Mage is awesome against them. Big thalia turn 2 can shut them down on mana and reality smasher. Sin collector shuts all is dust or a retched bomb down.
Yesterday i played against e-tron two times and the cards i mentioned won me the games (except sin collector, i played another decklist).
Against titanshift it is possible to race. Sin collector will help against scapeshift and boardwipes.
I think you are in a good spot against lot of decks in the meta right now
Some things i will change:
-cut 4x knights of the reliquery and both retreat to coralhelm. I never feel sure if it is right to start the combo. Also it is awkward to topdeck a retreat.
-in the 6 free slots i will go back to sin collector, anafenza, second thalia v2.0 and some other stuff.
-put rest in peace in the sideboard. Joel Larssons list plays no graveyardhate. It is to risky for me and i think there will always be a living end or dredge deck on fnm or bigger events.
-cut kessig wolfrun. Good card but without the combo it didnt had any impact.
- Unclaimed Territory is great, definitely makes the four colours work better than before.
Most definitely. I was skeptical of the card in CoCo lists, but testing has proven it to be a great addition to the mana base. It helps our Burn matchups quite a bit too.
- Kitesail Freebooter merits more testing. There's space in lists for good 2 drops for sure. I only saw mine against Burn, which helped as you can try and plan around what they are going to do, as well as forcing them into using a spell to get their other one back (so it kind of worked like an Arashin Cleric). I imagine grabbing a key card from Scapeshift or Storm feels great with this guy.
I think Freebooter is proving to be a premier card and the main reason to run Black over Red these days. Before him, you can see my old posts about how black was missing a proper 2 drop, whereas Red had Kari Zev and Brawler to go along with its hyper aggressive plan. Black has a disruptive plan and the combo of Freebooter, Sin Collector and Meddling Mage make black the go-to color now imo.
- Anafenza is as I remembered her, something you're always happy to see, and your opponents definitely aren't. I played a friendly game vs. Dredge and it prompted a scoop.
T2 Anafenza against something like Dredge or Living End is quite fun!
- I put Meddling Mages in the side and ran Spell Quellers main. They're definitely a bit weaker in a list with Unclaimed Territory over other lands, but on paper they seem ideal as a disruptive creature in Modern, they form a great 1-2 with Reflector Mage and scare people once they are caught by the first one.
Do you think Spell Queller is necessary when we can run Freebooters and Sin Collectors? What creatures are we trying to hit? I can't think of any that Reflector Mage and Path don't already take care of, outside of something like Etched Champion, but I'm always up for being proven wrong. Also, I think needing separate blue and white mana outside of our Caverns and Territories is potentially rough.
Anyways, I'm not sure who all is watching SCG coverage, but Brandon Decandio was just playing Bant Black humans against Eldrazi Tron. Once again, Stony Silence is boarded in, grinds the deck to a halt without making any impact for several turns, then they falter in the late game. I continue to strongly dislike the card. I feel like this happens with almost every aggressive deck that sides it in. Humans need to get on the board quick and get the opponent dead. Unless the it wins the game on the spot, it's simply not worth it. And Stony Silence often does not win on the spot, even against Affinity. Anybody who wants to run Stony Silence over Kataki because of the Eldrazi Tron matchup, refer to that Game 3 as a perfect example as to why I'm constantly opposed to the idea.
A few other choices were interesting (running only Thalia and Reflector Mage in the main at 3cmc, but adding Thraben Inspector at 1cmc) and I don't think I'm a fan. Zero Anafenza in the 75 from what I understand. There was a Necromancer and a Fiend Hunter in the side, but idk what else. With that and a 3rd Avacyn's Pilgrim, Collected Company becomes quite mediocre.
Do you think Spell Queller is necessary when we can run Freebooters and Sin Collectors? What creatures are we trying to hit? I can't think of any that Reflector Mage and Path don't already take care of, outside of something like Etched Champion, but I'm always up for being proven wrong. Also, I think needing separate blue and white mana outside of our Caverns and Territories is potentially rough.
I think you're probably right - the Quellers don't work with the Unclaimed Territory. In Knightfall lists with the higher number of fetches I like them better, but on reflection the mana doesn't support them in this version. If the mana did I like them as a catchall card, albeit a reactive one, and as a flyer, but your list has this in anyway.
I'll have to catch up on the SCG Open, good to see Humans getting an airing at least. I saw in the comments posted after BBD played a HUmans list recently that he seemed relatively positive on including Thraben Inspector, but I don't know what I would cut for them - we need our critical mass of 3 drops for CoCo to be good, and the Champs and 6+ mana dorks are a given in the deck.
So my report from SCG Charlotte. I went 5-4 but I had a lot of very close games
Round 1: BW Token /Gideons --> Win (2:1). That matchups is very close because they have a ton of removal, blockers and planeswalkers.
Round 2: Feature Match against Jadine Klomparens on Jund --> Win (2:0). In both games, I had to mulligan to 6 but I could start with T1 Dork into T2 Anafenza in Game 1 and had enough pressure in Game 2
Round 3: Elves (Loss 0:2). This is a terrible matchup. They are just faster. I had 0 chance even with multiple Path to Exile. I think that Eidolon of the Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist could help in this matchup, but not a lot.
Round 4: Affinity (Loss 1:2). I wasn't able to find my sideboard cards. Game 1 he kills me with exactly 10 infect (he would have died the next turn). Game 2 I totally destroy him and game 3 I have an 7 with 3 Freebooters..so I mulligan and draw the same hand again with 3 Freebooters.
Round 5: Valakut (Loss 1:2). That game was sad. Game 1 I am on the play and I keep a very mediocre hand with 4 lands, dork, thalias lieutenant and reflector mage but he mulligans to 5. T1 I play dork and pass. He plays a basic mountain. He has also red sleeves so I assume that he is on burn. T2 I draw Meddling Mage, which is a better two-drop in this situation compared to Thalia's Lieutenant. So I think to name Lightning Bolt or Lightning Helix. I name Helix and on his second turn he goes forest, prismatic omen. Later he survives by bolting my Champion...so that was pretty unlucky.
Round 6: Burn (Win 2:1). Very close games. Didn't draw my sideboard cards.
Round 7: Ponza (Win 2:1). Got Angered in Game 2 but was too fast for him in Game 3. Sin Collector is a good card here.
Round 8: Grixis Delver (Loss 1:2). Very close games. I wasn't able to find Rest in Peace and I was outvalued by a ton of removal and Snapcaster Mage. He wins in the 5th extra turn by topdecking Bolt after Opt (scry down).
Round 9: GR Titan Breach (Win 2:0). Played against a friend. Meddling Mages on Bolt and Anger do some work but later he just kills both with Valakut triggers. However, I had enough pressure to win.
Overall, I think that the deck should go in all Tempo. That means I will test the 5-color version with Mantis Rider and 4 Freebooter main going forward. The sideboard should then have spells like Unified Will to play the tempo game. I also think I need 1-2 Stony Silence and 2 Eidolon of the Rhetoric in the board.
I did not like the Meddling Mages main and I was not a fan of the Sin Collector sideboard plan.
Nice report polymorpher! Could you post a list :)?
Here a short report of my last FNM:
I played Larssons Human Knightfall-list. Only changed 2x Unified Will with 2x Negate.
Round 1 vs. Mono Green Devotion
Game one he played a ton of lands and fatties like PrimeTitan or Garrauk and his tokens. It was super grindy and i managed to push the last points of damage through.
Game two he again stalled the board with big creatures. He had a Kessig Wolf Run and 100000 Mana. Lethal on board but didn't saw it. I couldn't push enough damage and in the last minute of the game he saw his winning line. Time-Out 1-1
Round 2 vs. Eldrazi-Tron
I played against a very good player! Game one and two where similar. I had every answer for his threats and top decked even more answers
I was super sorry for those sick top decks! After the match i invited him on a beer 2-0
Round 3 vs. Eldrazi-Tron
I like the Matchup against E-Tron. It is always challenging and fun to play.
Game one i kept a aggresive hand after mulligan on 6. My opponent said "hmm it's a weird hand but i'm interested how it turns out."
Started with Noble Hierarch and followed up with Champion of the Parish into Thalias Lieutenant. My opponent just played tron lands. After massive swings i had him on 6 life. In his turn he plays All is Dust into Karn. GG.
Game two i had to mull on 6 again. And again a very aggressive start. Turn 3 i cast Collected Company, Turn 4 Eternal Witness and get back my Company. Turn 5 Company, hit a Witness, take company back, Opponent concedes.
Game three was very grindy. After clearing the board i had a single Champion on the board. Opponent casts Chalice on 4 to shut down my Company.. i had three in my hand :(. I draw another one... get in with Champ. My 10 turn clock is on! He draws another Chalice on two to avoid Lords. I topdeck a Viridian Renegades, target his chalice on 4, get in and cast the turn after company - win! 2-1
Round 4 vs. GW Hatebears
We draw. I thought i'm 3rd but there was another dude with 9 points so just finished 4th. In the end it didn't matter because i lost 1-2 in the friendly game.
Game one i did awesome things with company
Game two he did awesome things with Arbiter, Ghost Quarter and Mindcensor.
Game three he played a Wrath of God out of nowhere.
As i mentioned in an earlier post i don't like the Knightfall combo a lot. Maybe i didn't goldfished enough but starting the combo my blood pressure raises because of the fear of misscalculate. Beside that drawing a Retreat isn't so cool at all. Knight alone is ok but i think Anafenza is better.
Also i missed the disruption of Sin Collector. Against Titanshift of cards like Anger or All is Dust i have no answer that is proactiv like Sin Collector. Negate was good only once.
Cards that stood out: Reflector Mage - best card ever! Never had a moment where i didn't want to draw it! Thalia, Heretic Cathar - goodbye blockers, goodbye fetching, goodbye smasher - also a card that is always good!
Cards that where not that good: Retreat to Coralhelm - never saw it, never wanted to have it Knight of the Reliquary - it's a good card. But it was never bigger than 4/4 and i had no situation where i needed to tutor a specific land. Negate - maybe it's just my anipathy against blue spells Blessed Alliance - sometime i just don't know when to play it for the most value.
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Modern: 5c Humans//Devoted Company
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Round 3: Elves (Loss 0:2). This is a terrible matchup. They are just faster. I had 0 chance even with multiple Path to Exile. I think that Eidolon of the Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist could help in this matchup, but not a lot.
Interesting. Usually the only card they win with is Ezuri, so I just save my paths for him. Other than that, our creatures completely outclass theirs. What exactly were you losing to in those games?
Round 8: Grixis Delver (Loss 1:2). Very close games. I wasn't able to find Rest in Peace and I was outvalued by a ton of removal and Snapcaster Mage. He wins in the 5th extra turn by topdecking Bolt after Opt (scry down).
What was taken out of the main for RIP? I have found Delver to be a matchup where we really don't want to lose any creature density. RIP isn't that necessary since we can just bounce or kill their delve creatures. And our creatures are too big for them unless they have the perfect flurry of removal in the first couple of turns.
Overall, I think that the deck should go in all Tempo. That means I will test the 5-color version with Mantis Rider and 4 Freebooter main going forward. The sideboard should then have spells like Unified Will to play the tempo game. I also think I need 1-2 Stony Silence and 2 Eidolon of the Rhetoric in the board.
I did not like the Meddling Mages main and I was not a fan of the Sin Collector sideboard plan.
As someone who runs 3x Negate in my Bant Red list, I will say that feeling the need to hold open mana is very much a feel-bad and very much goes against what the deck wants to do. The reason the Sin Collector/Freebooter plan is so promising is the fact that we can be proactive about hitting the spells we care about without having to slow ourselves down to hold mana open. Counters also make it tough to maintain creature density in matchups where we can't side out all of our Paths. What kinds of spells are you looking to hit with counter spells that can't be hit otherwise?
Also, I saw Stony Silence played on camera in a Bant Black humans lists (round 3, game 3) and it was awful for the same reasons I've been saying in this thread. I really don't think it's something I would want to run in one of these lists because the issues that happened in that game are the exact same issues I have seen pop up when other aggressive creature decks try running the card. It's too slow and grinds the deck to a halt and it wasn't even relevant for several turns (even in Affinity, they have plenty of draws that don't care about it). By the time it was relevant, the opponent should have been at least nearly dead if not completely dead. Instead, thanks to how slow the deck was due to the card, the opponent had plenty of time to draw their outs and take over the game. I think that, especially in modern, people get way too caught up in hating out other decks and not enough about keeping their own gameplan intact. As we see in that game, it turns out that just getting the opponent dead is a whole lot better than worrying about them hitting 12 mana and getting a 6/6 Walking Ballista.
Both games were T1 Nettle Sentinel, T2 two elves one of them Heritage Druid into Ezuri, which I pathed. But he followed with another Ezuri in G1 and with Elvish Archdruid in G2 followed by Card of Calling into Ezuri. Basically he had about 50 by T5 the latest in both games. I guess he just had the perfect draw.
Round 8: Grixis Delver (Loss 1:2). Very close games. I wasn't able to find Rest in Peace and I was outvalued by a ton of removal and Snapcaster Mage. He wins in the 5th extra turn by topdecking Bolt after Opt (scry down).
What was taken out of the main for RIP? I have found Delver to be a matchup where we really don't want to lose any creature density. RIP isn't that necessary since we can just bounce or kill their delve creatures. And our creatures are too big for them unless they have the perfect flurry of removal in the first couple of turns.
So I think I took out Mayor, because of their spot removal. He later told me that he cannot beat Rest in Peace. Therefore, I believe it is really good to stop their Snapcaster. In G3 he had 2 Snaps and 3 Bolts in their opener, followed by several additional removal. I drew only 1 Coco but that got a Negate.
As someone who runs 3x Negate in my Bant Red list, I will say that feeling the need to hold open mana is very much a feel-bad and very much goes against what the deck wants to do. The reason the Sin Collector/Freebooter plan is so promising is the fact that we can be proactive about hitting the spells we care about without having to slow ourselves down to hold mana open. Counters also make it tough to maintain creature density in matchups where we can't side out all of our Paths. What kinds of spells are you looking to hit with counter spells that can't be hit otherwise?
Also, I saw Stony Silence played on camera in a Bant Black humans lists (round 3, game 3) and it was awful for the same reasons I've been saying in this thread. I really don't think it's something I would want to run in one of these lists because the issues that happened in that game are the exact same issues I have seen pop up when other aggressive creature decks try running the card. It's too slow and grinds the deck to a halt and it wasn't even relevant for several turns (even in Affinity, they have plenty of draws that don't care about it). By the time it was relevant, the opponent should have been at least nearly dead if not completely dead. Instead, thanks to how slow the deck was due to the card, the opponent had plenty of time to draw their outs and take over the game. I think that, especially in modern, people get way too caught up in hating out other decks and not enough about keeping their own gameplan intact. As we see in that game, it turns out that just getting the opponent dead is a whole lot better than worrying about them hitting 12 mana and getting a 6/6 Walking Ballista.
The longer I think about it, I think you are actually right about Counterspells. It is difficult to hold up mana. I think therefore Sin Collector is preferable. I however think I want 1 Stony Silence in addition to 2 Kataki or a 3rd Kataki. I think the Affinity matchup is too close and Affinity is quite successful right now.
What is your current list? Would you mind also to share your RedBant List again?
I was able to test a bit more today. I tried Tireless Tracker and he was insane. I definitely want to try 2-3 main. Even with only 4-5 Fetchlands the clues are insane in the midgame. I tested against Burn, Affinity, Merfolk, and Infect (So basically the aggro meta).
I tried a 4C version and a 5C version but I am not sure which one is better:
The Mantis Rider overperformed in my testing so far but stresses the mana requirements a bit more. However, I played several games against Merfolk on Spreading Seas and it wasn't hard to cast it through that.
Both games were T1 Nettle Sentinel, T2 two elves one of them Heritage Druid into Ezuri, which I pathed. But he followed with another Ezuri in G1 and with Elvish Archdruid in G2 followed by Card of Calling into Ezuri. Basically he had about 50 by T5 the latest in both games. I guess he just had the perfect draw.
Yeah, definitely some nut draws for the Elves deck. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Lots of decks in modern have unbeatable draws. Sometimes they'll just have it.
So I think I took out Mayor, because of their spot removal. He later told me that he cannot beat Rest in Peace. Therefore, I believe it is really good to stop their Snapcaster. In G3 he had 2 Snaps and 3 Bolts in their opener, followed by several additional removal. I drew only 1 Coco but that got a Negate.
I hardly ever board in something like RIP unless it basically shuts down the opposing deck (ie dredge, living end). Otherwise, it just means we have fewer threats they need to answer and/or fewer answers for their threats.
It doesn't have the disruption of the Bant Black list, but it is incredibly difficult to block. It's got menace, trample, flying, attacking tokens, bounce blockers, make blockers ETB tapped etc. If you want to get your aggro on, this is the list for you.
I've tried Tireless Tracker in the past and found him to be too slow and too situational (need to play early + draw lands + have mana that isn't already being utilized); I landed on Thalia, Heretic Cathar in that slot instead thanks to her ability to choke opponents on mana and blockers, which the deck is more in the market for. Thalia is much better against Tron decks, decks that clog the ground/produce chump blockers, hasty creature combos etc, all of which we need help fighting. Her first strike also makes her hard to block on her own. Tracker is great in grindy midrange / control matchups which we already have plenty of game against. We're looking to get under most decks, not grind them out, so Thalia is my preference there.
What are your thoughts on 5c with freebooter and mantis rider?
I honestly haven't tested it a bunch, but my current impression is that the marginal improvement isn't worth the extra mana restriction. Testing it helped me find ways to improve the Bant Black list, which to me feels like the more solid deck now that those improvements have been made. I plan to test more when I have some time, but currently I find myself really enjoying the Bant Black list. The 5C list is definitely more powerful, but I'm just on the fence about adding even more complexity to the mana. It works, it's just tough.
I just think that Meddling Mage totally underperformed for me at Charlotte. I am not a fan of it, so I am searching for a powerful substitution, which is probably 7th mana dork and another 3 drop (Thalia, Tracker). I think that Mantis Rider is great in aggro matchups because we can attack with evasion and hold back a blocker. I didn't have any problems with the mana so far and he came down often on turn 2 ,but you are correct that the mana base is scary. Did you ever try Reflecting Pool?
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Yeah, I think either one will serve you well. I think if I were playing Saturday, I'd be on the 4 Freebooter Bant Black list mainly for the slightly more stable mana.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
This was pretty much the list I ran at the PPTQ. Nice writeup, particularly the sideboard discussion. Good to see Humans getting the recommendation over other Company decks!
I don't think I played the decks the deck is best against in Burn, Elves and Merfolk but it was interesting nonetheless.
My brief thoughts:
- Unclaimed Territory is great, definitely makes the four colours work better than before.
- Kitesail Freebooter merits more testing. There's space in lists for good 2 drops for sure. I only saw mine against Burn, which helped as you can try and plan around what they are going to do, as well as forcing them into using a spell to get their other one back (so it kind of worked like an Arashin Cleric). I imagine grabbing a key card from Scapeshift or Storm feels great with this guy.
- Anafenza is as I remembered her, something you're always happy to see, and your opponents definitely aren't. I played a friendly game vs. Dredge and it prompted a scoop. I ran 2 Anafenza to try and avoid CoCoing into the second one, and put a Mirran Crusader in, which tore Elves apart in the first game; Turn 1 Hierarch into Crusader, Turn 3 CoCo for Hierarch and Lieutenant, swing for 10
- I put Meddling Mages in the side and ran Spell Quellers main. They're definitely a bit weaker in a list with Unclaimed Territory over other lands, but on paper they seem ideal as a disruptive creature in Modern, they form a great 1-2 with Reflector Mage and scare people once they are caught by the first one.
Overall it seems like a good list, I'll definitely play it again.
i think humans have a good match up against e-tron. Reflector Mage is awesome against them. Big thalia turn 2 can shut them down on mana and reality smasher. Sin collector shuts all is dust or a retched bomb down.
Yesterday i played against e-tron two times and the cards i mentioned won me the games (except sin collector, i played another decklist).
Against titanshift it is possible to race. Sin collector will help against scapeshift and boardwipes.
I think you are in a good spot against lot of decks in the meta right now
Some things i will change:
-cut 4x knights of the reliquery and both retreat to coralhelm. I never feel sure if it is right to start the combo. Also it is awkward to topdeck a retreat.
-in the 6 free slots i will go back to sin collector, anafenza, second thalia v2.0 and some other stuff.
-put rest in peace in the sideboard. Joel Larssons list plays no graveyardhate. It is to risky for me and i think there will always be a living end or dredge deck on fnm or bigger events.
-cut kessig wolfrun. Good card but without the combo it didnt had any impact.
I will post my list maybe on monday
(I am on my phone sorry if you find typos)
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Glad to see the deck continuing to put up results. I definitely think we've got ourselves a contender here .
Most definitely. I was skeptical of the card in CoCo lists, but testing has proven it to be a great addition to the mana base. It helps our Burn matchups quite a bit too.
I think Freebooter is proving to be a premier card and the main reason to run Black over Red these days. Before him, you can see my old posts about how black was missing a proper 2 drop, whereas Red had Kari Zev and Brawler to go along with its hyper aggressive plan. Black has a disruptive plan and the combo of Freebooter, Sin Collector and Meddling Mage make black the go-to color now imo.
T2 Anafenza against something like Dredge or Living End is quite fun!
Do you think Spell Queller is necessary when we can run Freebooters and Sin Collectors? What creatures are we trying to hit? I can't think of any that Reflector Mage and Path don't already take care of, outside of something like Etched Champion, but I'm always up for being proven wrong. Also, I think needing separate blue and white mana outside of our Caverns and Territories is potentially rough.
Anyways, I'm not sure who all is watching SCG coverage, but Brandon Decandio was just playing Bant Black humans against Eldrazi Tron. Once again, Stony Silence is boarded in, grinds the deck to a halt without making any impact for several turns, then they falter in the late game. I continue to strongly dislike the card. I feel like this happens with almost every aggressive deck that sides it in. Humans need to get on the board quick and get the opponent dead. Unless the it wins the game on the spot, it's simply not worth it. And Stony Silence often does not win on the spot, even against Affinity. Anybody who wants to run Stony Silence over Kataki because of the Eldrazi Tron matchup, refer to that Game 3 as a perfect example as to why I'm constantly opposed to the idea.
A few other choices were interesting (running only Thalia and Reflector Mage in the main at 3cmc, but adding Thraben Inspector at 1cmc) and I don't think I'm a fan. Zero Anafenza in the 75 from what I understand. There was a Necromancer and a Fiend Hunter in the side, but idk what else. With that and a 3rd Avacyn's Pilgrim, Collected Company becomes quite mediocre.
I think you're probably right - the Quellers don't work with the Unclaimed Territory. In Knightfall lists with the higher number of fetches I like them better, but on reflection the mana doesn't support them in this version. If the mana did I like them as a catchall card, albeit a reactive one, and as a flyer, but your list has this in anyway.
I'll have to catch up on the SCG Open, good to see Humans getting an airing at least. I saw in the comments posted after BBD played a HUmans list recently that he seemed relatively positive on including Thraben Inspector, but I don't know what I would cut for them - we need our critical mass of 3 drops for CoCo to be good, and the Champs and 6+ mana dorks are a given in the deck.
Round 1: BW Token /Gideons --> Win (2:1). That matchups is very close because they have a ton of removal, blockers and planeswalkers.
Round 2: Feature Match against Jadine Klomparens on Jund --> Win (2:0). In both games, I had to mulligan to 6 but I could start with T1 Dork into T2 Anafenza in Game 1 and had enough pressure in Game 2
Round 3: Elves (Loss 0:2). This is a terrible matchup. They are just faster. I had 0 chance even with multiple Path to Exile. I think that Eidolon of the Rhetoric or Ethersworn Canonist could help in this matchup, but not a lot.
Round 4: Affinity (Loss 1:2). I wasn't able to find my sideboard cards. Game 1 he kills me with exactly 10 infect (he would have died the next turn). Game 2 I totally destroy him and game 3 I have an 7 with 3 Freebooters..so I mulligan and draw the same hand again with 3 Freebooters.
Round 5: Valakut (Loss 1:2). That game was sad. Game 1 I am on the play and I keep a very mediocre hand with 4 lands, dork, thalias lieutenant and reflector mage but he mulligans to 5. T1 I play dork and pass. He plays a basic mountain. He has also red sleeves so I assume that he is on burn. T2 I draw Meddling Mage, which is a better two-drop in this situation compared to Thalia's Lieutenant. So I think to name Lightning Bolt or Lightning Helix. I name Helix and on his second turn he goes forest, prismatic omen. Later he survives by bolting my Champion...so that was pretty unlucky.
Round 6: Burn (Win 2:1). Very close games. Didn't draw my sideboard cards.
Round 7: Ponza (Win 2:1). Got Angered in Game 2 but was too fast for him in Game 3. Sin Collector is a good card here.
Round 8: Grixis Delver (Loss 1:2). Very close games. I wasn't able to find Rest in Peace and I was outvalued by a ton of removal and Snapcaster Mage. He wins in the 5th extra turn by topdecking Bolt after Opt (scry down).
Round 9: GR Titan Breach (Win 2:0). Played against a friend. Meddling Mages on Bolt and Anger do some work but later he just kills both with Valakut triggers. However, I had enough pressure to win.
Overall, I think that the deck should go in all Tempo. That means I will test the 5-color version with Mantis Rider and 4 Freebooter main going forward. The sideboard should then have spells like Unified Will to play the tempo game. I also think I need 1-2 Stony Silence and 2 Eidolon of the Rhetoric in the board.
I did not like the Meddling Mages main and I was not a fan of the Sin Collector sideboard plan.
Here a short report of my last FNM:
I played Larssons Human Knightfall-list. Only changed 2x Unified Will with 2x Negate.
Round 1 vs. Mono Green Devotion
Game one he played a ton of lands and fatties like PrimeTitan or Garrauk and his tokens. It was super grindy and i managed to push the last points of damage through.
Game two he again stalled the board with big creatures. He had a Kessig Wolf Run and 100000 Mana. Lethal on board but didn't saw it. I couldn't push enough damage and in the last minute of the game he saw his winning line. Time-Out 1-1
Round 2 vs. Eldrazi-Tron
I played against a very good player! Game one and two where similar. I had every answer for his threats and top decked even more answers
I was super sorry for those sick top decks! After the match i invited him on a beer 2-0
Round 3 vs. Eldrazi-Tron
I like the Matchup against E-Tron. It is always challenging and fun to play.
Game one i kept a aggresive hand after mulligan on 6. My opponent said "hmm it's a weird hand but i'm interested how it turns out."
Started with Noble Hierarch and followed up with Champion of the Parish into Thalias Lieutenant. My opponent just played tron lands. After massive swings i had him on 6 life. In his turn he plays All is Dust into Karn. GG.
Game two i had to mull on 6 again. And again a very aggressive start. Turn 3 i cast Collected Company, Turn 4 Eternal Witness and get back my Company. Turn 5 Company, hit a Witness, take company back, Opponent concedes.
Game three was very grindy. After clearing the board i had a single Champion on the board. Opponent casts Chalice on 4 to shut down my Company.. i had three in my hand :(. I draw another one... get in with Champ. My 10 turn clock is on! He draws another Chalice on two to avoid Lords. I topdeck a Viridian Renegades, target his chalice on 4, get in and cast the turn after company - win! 2-1
Round 4 vs. GW Hatebears
We draw. I thought i'm 3rd but there was another dude with 9 points so just finished 4th. In the end it didn't matter because i lost 1-2 in the friendly game.
Game one i did awesome things with company
Game two he did awesome things with Arbiter, Ghost Quarter and Mindcensor.
Game three he played a Wrath of God out of nowhere.
As i mentioned in an earlier post i don't like the Knightfall combo a lot. Maybe i didn't goldfished enough but starting the combo my blood pressure raises because of the fear of misscalculate. Beside that drawing a Retreat isn't so cool at all. Knight alone is ok but i think Anafenza is better.
Also i missed the disruption of Sin Collector. Against Titanshift of cards like Anger or All is Dust i have no answer that is proactiv like Sin Collector. Negate was good only once.
Cards that stood out:
Reflector Mage - best card ever! Never had a moment where i didn't want to draw it!
Thalia, Heretic Cathar - goodbye blockers, goodbye fetching, goodbye smasher - also a card that is always good!
Cards that where not that good:
Retreat to Coralhelm - never saw it, never wanted to have it
Knight of the Reliquary - it's a good card. But it was never bigger than 4/4 and i had no situation where i needed to tutor a specific land.
Negate - maybe it's just my anipathy against blue spells
Blessed Alliance - sometime i just don't know when to play it for the most value.
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
Interesting. Usually the only card they win with is Ezuri, so I just save my paths for him. Other than that, our creatures completely outclass theirs. What exactly were you losing to in those games?
What was taken out of the main for RIP? I have found Delver to be a matchup where we really don't want to lose any creature density. RIP isn't that necessary since we can just bounce or kill their delve creatures. And our creatures are too big for them unless they have the perfect flurry of removal in the first couple of turns.
As someone who runs 3x Negate in my Bant Red list, I will say that feeling the need to hold open mana is very much a feel-bad and very much goes against what the deck wants to do. The reason the Sin Collector/Freebooter plan is so promising is the fact that we can be proactive about hitting the spells we care about without having to slow ourselves down to hold mana open. Counters also make it tough to maintain creature density in matchups where we can't side out all of our Paths. What kinds of spells are you looking to hit with counter spells that can't be hit otherwise?
Also, I saw Stony Silence played on camera in a Bant Black humans lists (round 3, game 3) and it was awful for the same reasons I've been saying in this thread. I really don't think it's something I would want to run in one of these lists because the issues that happened in that game are the exact same issues I have seen pop up when other aggressive creature decks try running the card. It's too slow and grinds the deck to a halt and it wasn't even relevant for several turns (even in Affinity, they have plenty of draws that don't care about it). By the time it was relevant, the opponent should have been at least nearly dead if not completely dead. Instead, thanks to how slow the deck was due to the card, the opponent had plenty of time to draw their outs and take over the game. I think that, especially in modern, people get way too caught up in hating out other decks and not enough about keeping their own gameplan intact. As we see in that game, it turns out that just getting the opponent dead is a whole lot better than worrying about them hitting 12 mana and getting a 6/6 Walking Ballista.
Both games were T1 Nettle Sentinel, T2 two elves one of them Heritage Druid into Ezuri, which I pathed. But he followed with another Ezuri in G1 and with Elvish Archdruid in G2 followed by Card of Calling into Ezuri. Basically he had about 50 by T5 the latest in both games. I guess he just had the perfect draw.
So I think I took out Mayor, because of their spot removal. He later told me that he cannot beat Rest in Peace. Therefore, I believe it is really good to stop their Snapcaster. In G3 he had 2 Snaps and 3 Bolts in their opener, followed by several additional removal. I drew only 1 Coco but that got a Negate.
The longer I think about it, I think you are actually right about Counterspells. It is difficult to hold up mana. I think therefore Sin Collector is preferable. I however think I want 1 Stony Silence in addition to 2 Kataki or a 3rd Kataki. I think the Affinity matchup is too close and Affinity is quite successful right now.
What is your current list? Would you mind also to share your RedBant List again?
I tried a 4C version and a 5C version but I am not sure which one is better:
4C main:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Reflector Mage
2 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Abzan Falconer
Spells:
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
1 Gavony Township
2 Eidolon of the Rhetoric
2 Stony Silence
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Sin Collector
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
1 Auriok Champion
5C Main: This is basically - 1 Mayor of Avabruck, -1 Tireless Tracker, -1 Abzan Falconer, -1 Anafenza, the Foremost, -1 Gavony Township for +4 Mantis Rider and +1 Stomping Ground.
The Mantis Rider overperformed in my testing so far but stresses the mana requirements a bit more. However, I played several games against Merfolk on Spreading Seas and it wasn't hard to cast it through that.
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Reflector Mage
1 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Mantis Rider
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
Lands:
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
Opinions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmo4K14U074
Yeah, definitely some nut draws for the Elves deck. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Lots of decks in modern have unbeatable draws. Sometimes they'll just have it.
I hardly ever board in something like RIP unless it basically shuts down the opposing deck (ie dredge, living end). Otherwise, it just means we have fewer threats they need to answer and/or fewer answers for their threats.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Voltaic Brawler
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
4 Mantis Rider
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Plains
3 Arashin Cleric
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Vithian Renegades
3 Meddling Mage
It doesn't have the disruption of the Bant Black list, but it is incredibly difficult to block. It's got menace, trample, flying, attacking tokens, bounce blockers, make blockers ETB tapped etc. If you want to get your aggro on, this is the list for you.
My current Bant Black list:
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Meddling Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Arashin Cleric
3 Sin Collector
1 Sacred Foundry
Not much has changed for the past few days. This is my current preferred list and it runs like a dream.
What are your thoughts on 5c with freebooter and mantis rider?
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Reflector Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Xathrid Necromancer
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Windswept Heath
4 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Sin Collector
2 Rest in Peace
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Arashin Clerical
Looks very intersting, lots of pressure against combos and the same power against Eldrazis.
I've tried Tireless Tracker in the past and found him to be too slow and too situational (need to play early + draw lands + have mana that isn't already being utilized); I landed on Thalia, Heretic Cathar in that slot instead thanks to her ability to choke opponents on mana and blockers, which the deck is more in the market for. Thalia is much better against Tron decks, decks that clog the ground/produce chump blockers, hasty creature combos etc, all of which we need help fighting. Her first strike also makes her hard to block on her own. Tracker is great in grindy midrange / control matchups which we already have plenty of game against. We're looking to get under most decks, not grind them out, so Thalia is my preference there.
I honestly haven't tested it a bunch, but my current impression is that the marginal improvement isn't worth the extra mana restriction. Testing it helped me find ways to improve the Bant Black list, which to me feels like the more solid deck now that those improvements have been made. I plan to test more when I have some time, but currently I find myself really enjoying the Bant Black list. The 5C list is definitely more powerful, but I'm just on the fence about adding even more complexity to the mana. It works, it's just tough.