Primal Surge is the Perfect card to storm through your whole deck and drop it all on the battlefield. The only trouble is making sure that you can get the one copy to your hand so you can play it on turn 4. It doesn't seem too hard, right?
Here's the catch: we don't want any sorceries or instants in the deck list.
Anybody care to roll up their sleeves and help me try to tackle this deck idea?
Of course!
I can't believe that I didn't take that land into consideration.
I know there's enough mana production to be able to make 10 mana on turn 4, sometimes on turn 3. So, now, we just need to find a good way to search out Primal Surge without using an instant or sorcery to do so.
Those are pretty much the only good ones. I was all excited about Grozoth until I realized it cost 9 not 10. (I think I remember it being a 1-of in old Dragonstorm lists.)
You could also consider cards that thin out your library so you can "cheat" some instants & sorceries into your deck. If they were, say, going to your graveyard, I think Primal Surge makes a pretty nice Sins of the Past target
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I don't care if you're a moderator but you sir have said a very, very stupid thing.
Those are pretty much the only good ones. I was all excited about Grozoth until I realized it cost 9 not 10. (I think I remember it being a 1-of in old Dragonstorm lists.)
You could also consider cards that thin out your library so you can "cheat" some instants & sorceries into your deck. If they were, say, going to your graveyard, I think Primal Surge makes a pretty nice Sins of the Past target
Liliana Vess is a Great suggestion! It would be easy to drop on turn 3, and provide us with a turn 4 Primal Surge.
I got excited about the 9-drop transmute creature too, until I counted its CMC to be 9 instead of 10. That bummed me out, and I immediately thought: why can't it cost one more mana(something I never thought I'd say)?!
Thanks for the research, good sir. I very much appreciate it.
I think it's about time to come up with the first deck list for this idea. I'll post my list tomorrow morning, so it'll give me some time to fine tune the first draft.
Feel free to toss up your deck lists on this idea, everybody. The more brainstorming we have, the better this deck will be.
EDIT:
I play tested the list a few times and found myself needing more search. So, I cut an Æther Vial and a Ratchet Bomb, and added another Maralen and Liliana Vess.
What about rune scarred demon? He does cost a bit, but his effect is immediate and as a 6/6 flier, he's awfully strong on his own. Other than that, I don't know that joiner adept is worth it. What about devoted druid as a multi mana producer the turn you need it?
Joiner Adept lets you use a Boseiju early game without dealing you damage, and can also add a mana of any color. Same with Nykthos, and I think that being able to utilize these lands this way makes the deck much more consistent.
I have been thinking of cutting bloom tenders and replacing them with Elvish Visionary, though.
It's got trouble against sweepers like Pyroclasm and Anger of The Gods, so I've been trying to find a creature that can help out with either preventing that damage or giving pro-red to my important creatures. Other than that, I have to say that it's a very consistent turn 4 combo. The Vials speed it up a lot faster than just about every other card, other than Maralen.
I've yet to develop a sideboard for this deck, still. But in my defense, I haven't had a chance to test it against any tier one decks yet. As soon as I do get that chance, I'll make sure I write about it.
If you're that dead set on using creatures as rampers, then consider defender ramp instead. You get wall of roots, overgrown battlement, axebane guardian, and possibly even wall of mulch that just got reprinted. They mostly pass the bolt test and surely block better than elves do.
Maybe try a UG list? With Dictate of Karametra and Heartbeat of Spring to hardcast the Primal Surge a lot more reliably than with mana dorks that die very easily. Also if this is the case then Omniscience says whats up.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
This deck can attempt to hit 10 mana for Primal Surge, or it can just drop Prime Time into Eye of Ugin and go to town with Ulamog, or it can just hardcast Craterhoof for beatdown. I guess you could ramp into Rune-Scarred Demons and tutor up Primal Surge, but it seems easier to just cram in synergistic alternate win conditions. As far as I know, the most successful deck crammed fill with mana dorks and permanents was the Sovereigns deck. If we're ramping to 10 and using 6 as a road bump up to 10 (via Prime Time), might as well cheat out Eldrazi Conscriptions too.
The other main line of permanent-based ramp deck I can think of is Valakut ramp. You can cram this combo into an Jund Valakut ramp shell with all permanents (STE, Courser, etc.), the Valakut+1G enchantment, Prime Times, Rune-Scarred Demons, the Primal Surge combo.
Umm, maralen seems like a bad idea, in my thoughts. It gives your opponent exactly those sweepers you don't want to see.
I cheat in Maralen with aæther vial at the end of my opponents turn so I'm the only one that gets to use her ability by searching for my Primal Surge and casting it with Boseiju.
If you're that dead set on using creatures as rampers, then consider defender ramp instead. You get wall of roots, overgrown battlement, axebane guardian, and possibly even wall of mulch that just got reprinted. They mostly pass the bolt test and surely block better than elves do.
I'm not that dead-set on using creatures. I like the idea of using enchantment ramp, and that would solve the problems with board sweeps. But, it makes the deck prone to Tec Edges and Ghost Quarters. I'll have to make up an alternate deck list to test out based on this approach to see which one is harder to disrupt.
Maybe try a UG list? With Dictate of Karametra and Heartbeat of Spring to hardcast the Primal Surge a lot more reliably than with mana dorks that die very easily. Also if this is the case then Omniscience says whats up.
I'm not so sure about Omniscience, but I like where you're going as well with your enchantment ramp suggestions. UG would make me want to run counters, and I'm trying to avoid that. But I'll see what I can come up with. Feel free to share your own UG idea, I'd love to see it.
This is a silly win condition, costly, and make sa lot of dead cards in your deck.
Much more effective and safer, Laboratory maniac + elvish Visionary.
Run a singleton Asceticism in the deck.
Your best way to tutor is to run as much dig as you can, and have craterhoof as a an alt win con. Or just play it.
Because, in all seriousness, the best way to cast Primal surge is to ramp into it, but there are just better and cheaper spells to ramp into that kill a lot more reliably. Craterhoof being the big one.
Why primal surge into a weak win con that can die to disruption when you can cast Craterhoof and just win way faster?
If you feel you absolutely need to cast primal surge though, you want:
This deck can attempt to hit 10 mana for Primal Surge, or it can just drop Prime Time into Eye of Ugin and go to town with Ulamog, or it can just hardcast Craterhoof for beatdown. I guess you could ramp into Rune-Scarred Demons and tutor up Primal Surge, but it seems easier to just cram in synergistic alternate win conditions. As far as I know, the most successful deck crammed fill with mana dorks and permanents was the Sovereigns deck. If we're ramping to 10 and using 6 as a road bump up to 10 (via Prime Time), might as well cheat out Eldrazi Conscriptions too.
The other main line of permanent-based ramp deck I can think of is Valakut ramp. You can cram this combo into an Jund Valakut ramp shell with all permanents (STE, Courser, etc.), the Valakut+1G enchantment, Prime Times, Rune-Scarred Demons, the Primal Surge combo.
I like how you did the ramp system in your list. It seems pretty consistent. Have you tested it out, or did you just throw it together?
The Jund Valakut approach sounds like a blast, to be completely honest...
This is a silly win condition, costly, and make sa lot of dead cards in your deck.
How?
What is a dead card when you play an uncounterable Primal Surge on turn 4?
Everything has hexproof except Provileged Position. That means you'll have to blow through Privileged Posistion just to get to asceticism, blow it up as well, and THEN remove the kill. which would be about 6 4/4 beast tokens(shooting for an average number), a crap-ton of little creatures, and rampaging baloths gaining support from Akroma's Memorial and a Craterhoof that makes your creatures huge. So even those 1/1 ramp weenies are now 20/20 haste, vigilance, trample, flying, first strikers.
Much more effective and safer, Laboratory maniac + elvish Visionary.
Well That's no fun.
Magic is about having fun and creating entertaining decks.
This deck idea is entertaining to me, so I'm going try(with the help of all the kind people here) to make it as competitive as possible.
Your best way to tutor is to run as much dig as you can, and have craterhoof as a an alt win con. Or just play it.
If you draw a card after Surge resolves, but before Laboratory Maniac resolves, you lose the game.
"draw a card."
You: "Crap, my whole library is on the stack... I don't have a card to draw."
Because, in all seriousness, the best way to cast Primal surge is to ramp into it, but there are just better and cheaper spells to ramp into that kill a lot more reliably. Craterhoof being the big one.
Why primal surge into a weak win con that can die to disruption when you can cast Craterhoof and just win way faster?
waiwhat?
How is my win con weak?
Do you even understand how the deck works?
One final question: you do see that I run Boseiju, Who Shelters All, right?
Once again, I don't like the draw approach in this deck.
I appreciate the suggestions and critique, though. If you want to pursue this deck more and come up with a list, feel free. I've already got a few variants that I'm working on for this idea and don't really want to pick up another.
I like the idea behind the deck and I try to help you building it, and make it competitive as much as possible. Maybe I'll build it for myself, because it may be very funny to play =D.
What is a dead card when you play an uncounterable Primal Surge on turn 4?
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Akroma's Memorial
These cards are all dead cards in hand, you want them in your deck and get messed up if you draw them the first few turns. Lab maniac and visionary on the other hand are still useful cards to play before you surge in fact, the main combo piece, Elvish Visionary, helps you dig for your primal surge. Akroma's memorial wont get you your primal surge.
Well That's no fun.
Magic is about having fun and creating entertaining decks.
This deck idea is entertaining to me, so I'm going try(with the help of all the kind people here) to make it as competitive as possible.
We assume you are building to win. If you arent building to win, then whats the point of this entire post? You wanted advice to make your deck better, I gave it. If you wanted a fun deck then you shouldn't have asked us how to make it better, because the better a deck is at winning faster and more consistently, the less fun it is for everyone else because you keep winning.
And I'll tell you right now, a deck that draws 6~7 cards a turn and vomits stuff onto the field without even casting primal surge (the deck I pitched) is way more fun then "whoops I didn't draw primal surge, guess Im gonna slowly mana ramp up to ulamog while my opponent kills me" is not going to be fun to play. You will be roflstomped by any half decent control deck who knows what they are doing. Land destruction is a thing, and you need to play around it. A good combo deck is a combo deck that can win without the combo, but just by turning the creatures sideways too. Your list can do that but, not as well as the list I will propose at the bottom
Redundancy issue again. It's unnecessary and clogs the deck up. You just need a singleton Asceticism to pitch out. anything more will just make it harder to actually get to your primal surge. You want bare bones here, the less pieces in your combo, the better you are at actually casting surge.
If you draw a card after Surge resolves, but before Laboratory Maniac resolves, you lose the game.
"draw a card."
You: "Crap, my whole library is on the stack... I don't have a card to draw."
What are you even talking about? You need to learn how the spell works if you want to build a deck around it.
All of your ETB triggers off of Surge won't trigger until you are done resolving surge
Which means you vomit your whole deck into play, then all your triggers happen.
Which means lab maniac will be in play (you just surged him out), your library is empty (you surged it all out) and now you have many draw triggers on the stack (off your multitude of creatures that can all do it) and they all have hexproof (asceticism)
No silver bullets that beat you here, you pretty much win, and your opponent can't intervene. The only out I can think of is Notion Thief
Why primal surge into a weak win con that can die to disruption when you can cast Craterhoof and just win way faster?
waiwhat?
How is my win con weak?
Do you even understand how the deck works?
One final question: you do see that I run Boseiju, Who Shelters All, right?
Your win con relies on multiple pieces, you need to cast primal surge AND have multiple cards all in your deck AND be able to swing AND swing for game on THAT swing.
You know what makes you instantly lose for 1 mana? Fog. Your opponent fogs. You lose because you deck yourself next turn. Or aetherize or cyclonic rift or any other mutlitude of ways. You are relying on a secondary win con here, and that will cost you games.
Lab maniac combo is just harder to disrupt. Cyclonic Rift, Notion Thief, I think those are pretty much the only instant speed ways to disrupt the combo.
Your combo loses to: Fog, Aetherize, holy Day, Martyr (which will have enough life to survive your swing), any indestructible creature that can block ulamog, Cryptic command with the "tap all creatures" mode, turn 1 thoughtseize/duress (oh no they sniped it out of your hand turn 1 when you kept it, GG) so on and so forth.
Once again, I don't like the draw approach in this deck.
I appreciate the suggestions and critique, though. If you want to pursue this deck more and come up with a list, feel free. I've already got a few variants that I'm working on for this idea and don't really want to pick up another.
This deck can do a lot more than just durdle til you primal surge. We have the Amulet of vigor combos in the deck, since we are already in UG and have the prime times, and it also combos deliciously with Primal Surge.
Primal surge -> Vomit some karoo lands into play + an amulet of vigor or two -> stack your triggers so they untap -> get 6~8 mana -> Also get a big draw in off of Prime Speaker Zegana or Regal Force -> Draw a bunch more cards -> Cast another primal surge
Stack the triggers right and you should have np. You'll have a LOT of ETB triggers to generate more than enough mana to do another primal surge. Resolve 1 and it will cascade into you getting more mana and cards to cast another right after it on the same turn, and then you deck yourself into lab maniac and win instantly.
But wait, what if they snipe your lab maniac? Easy, just craterhoof behemoth them in the face, that'll kill them too.
The deck is much more consistant. You have 3 Surges instead of 1, and you have exponentially more dig. You should draw it by the turn 3 or 4 no problem, and the massive amount of power of mana this deck can generate? You should be able to cast primal surge by turn 3~4.
Oh, and doing it this way has a neat little hidden trick to make you immune to your opponent responding to kill you.
You primal surge combo and are about to win, Lab maniac in play, Prime Speaker trigger on stack that will deck you and OH SHOOT
They vapor snag your lab maniac!
Oh except... You respond by saccing your Solemn sim with Miren the Moaning well, decking yourself a second time in response to snag. If they have a second out in hand, then you prolly lose.
If you want more security, Alchemist's Apprentice / Ior Ruin Expedition are both strong ways to be hard to answer by another deck, if you have multiple out you can repeatedly respond to your opponent by winning another time until they run out of answers.
I prefer miren the moaning well, as it doesnt take up a spell slot, while still being very useful.
I like the idea behind the deck and I try to help you building it, and make it competitive as much as possible. Maybe I'll build it for myself, because it may be very funny to play =D.
I've been thinking of using an Acidic Slime so I can deal with things like Ensnaring Bridge and GP. I'd hate not being able to swing because somebody dropped a bridge and didn't have any cards in hand.
Thank you for your input, sir!
What is a dead card when you play an uncounterable Primal Surge on turn 4?
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Akroma's Memorial
These cards are all dead cards in hand, you want them in your deck and get messed up if you draw them the first few turns. Lab maniac and visionary on the other hand are still useful cards to play before you surge in fact, the main combo piece, Elvish Visionary, helps you dig for your primal surge. Akroma's memorial wont get you your primal surge.
The only one of those cards I have in my deck is Akroma's Memorial, and it can be played on turn three. Far from a dead card in your hand because of all the ramp, And it gives all your creatures pro-black and pro-red along with haste.
The 2 games I started with Memorial in my hand, I won.
Well That's no fun.
Magic is about having fun and creating entertaining decks.
This deck idea is entertaining to me, so I'm going try(with the help of all the kind people here) to make it as competitive as possible.
We assume you are building to win. If you arent building to win, then whats the point of this entire post? You wanted advice to make your deck better, I gave it. If you wanted a fun deck then you shouldn't have asked us how to make it better, because the better a deck is at winning faster and more consistently, the less fun it is for everyone else because you keep winning.
Yes, I do want to win. But, I want to win while having a good time. That's why I come up with off-the-wall ideas and try to make them competitive. Sometimes they don't work(as might be the case with this deck), but sometimes they do(ex: my Purphorus RUG deck that nobody around here can seem to beat). This is also part of the fun of magic.
At least to me, that is.
And I'll tell you right now, a deck that draws 6~7 cards a turn and vomits stuff onto the field without even casting primal surge (the deck I pitched) is way more fun then "whoops I didn't draw primal surge, guess Im gonna slowly mana ramp up to ulamog while my opponent kills me" is not going to be fun to play. You will be roflstomped by any half decent control deck who knows what they are doing. Land destruction is a thing, and you need to play around it. A good combo deck is a combo deck that can win without the combo, but just by turning the creatures sideways too. Your list can do that but, not as well as the list I will propose at the bottom
There's plenty of setting up to do before you cast Surge, and it's all early game. So your early game is Spoken for every single time you even think of playing with this deck.
I do wish to draw into Surge, yes. But only when I need it. That's why I have 7 Search engines in place. I don't want to draw randomness or something I can't cast.
How would playing a visionary and drawing another vial help me?
It wouldn't. and, it'd take up precious time when I should be dropping things that produce(more) mana.
Redundancy issue again. It's unnecessary and clogs the deck up. You just need a singleton Asceticism to pitch out. anything more will just make it harder to actually get to your primal surge. You want bare bones here, the less pieces in your combo, the better you are at actually casting surge.
No, you don't. Somebody can blow through your one Asceticism and still remove whatever they want. I don't want that to happen. Plus, a turn 3 Privileged Position always throws people's plans out the window.
If you draw a card after Surge resolves, but before Laboratory Maniac resolves, you lose the game.
"draw a card."
You: "Crap, my whole library is on the stack... I don't have a card to draw."
What are you even talking about? You need to learn how the spell works if you want to build a deck around it.
All of your ETB triggers off of Surge won't trigger until you are done resolving surge
Which means you vomit your whole deck into play, then all your triggers happen.
Which means lab maniac will be in play (you just surged him out), your library is empty (you surged it all out) and now you have many draw triggers on the stack (off your multitude of creatures that can all do it) and they all have hexproof (asceticism)
No silver bullets that beat you here, you pretty much win, and your opponent can't intervene. The only out I can think of is Notion Thief
You're right, you do get to minipulate how you want abilities to go on the stack. I didn't know that part.
It makes this deck a lot easier than I thought to run.
Why primal surge into a weak win con that can die to disruption when you can cast Craterhoof and just win way faster?
waiwhat?
How is my win con weak?
Do you even understand how the deck works?
One final question: you do see that I run Boseiju, Who Shelters All, right?
Your win con relies on multiple pieces, you need to cast primal surge AND have multiple cards all in your deck AND be able to swing AND swing for game on THAT swing.
My win-con is an uncounterable Primal Surge that makes my Akroma's Memorial and Craterhoof Behemoth hit the battlefield. Lab Maniac is just for Fog security, and Asceticism and Privileged position are my second win-cons security blanket because Memorial gives Pro-red. I've also been thinking of putting in a single Everlasting Torment or Leyline of Punishment in this deck ever since I came up with the idea.
EDIT: I've been giving what you've been saying a lot of thought, and I see where you're coming from now. Lab maniac and "draw a card" would be so much more effective, and rely on combat damage as the 2nd win-con.
Sorry it's taken me so long to realize this.
You know what makes you instantly lose for 1 mana? Fog. Your opponent fogs. You lose because you deck yourself next turn. Or aetherize or cyclonic rift or any other mutlitude of ways. You are relying on a secondary win con here, and that will cost you games.
I've been fogged. It led me to win during my next draw step.
How?
That "redundancy" problem I have kept my lab maniac alive long enough for me to make it to my draw step.
You can't target something with hexproof if you're the opponent.
Lab maniac combo is just harder to disrupt. Cyclonic Rift, Notion Thief, I think those are pretty much the only instant speed ways to disrupt the combo.
Your combo loses to: Fog, Aetherize, holy Day, Martyr (which will have enough life to survive your swing), any indestructible creature that can block ulamog, Cryptic command with the "tap all creatures" mode, turn 1 thoughtseize/duress (oh no they sniped it out of your hand turn 1 when you kept it, GG) so on and so forth.
One in every 10 opening hands you Might see a Surge.
That's it.
And, there are ways to win other than surging your whole library onto the battlefield. So I'm voiding the targeted hand disruption conversation.
We've been over how my deck doesn't lose to fog, so the same applies to Holy Day.
Even if I had Ulamog in the deck, just an indestructible creature wouldn't stop him for long. Doesn't he make people sac permanents each time he's declared as an attacker?
Once again, I don't like the draw approach in this deck.
I appreciate the suggestions and critique, though. If you want to pursue this deck more and come up with a list, feel free. I've already got a few variants that I'm working on for this idea and don't really want to pick up another.
This deck can do a lot more than just durdle til you primal surge. We have the Amulet of vigor combos in the deck, since we are already in UG and have the prime times, and it also combos deliciously with Primal Surge.
The extra Primal Surges throw me off and makes it so I don't like this deck list. You don't need more than one primal surge.
I do kinda like some of your early-game drops, though. And P. Titan is always a great guy to throw in any green deck idea.
It's time for me to start switching out elves and using different means of ramp. I'll have a new deck list soon. Thanks again for discussing this deck with me, I appreciate your input.
Stack the triggers right and you should have np. You'll have a LOT of ETB triggers to generate more than enough mana to do another primal surge. Resolve 1 and it will cascade into you getting more mana and cards to cast another right after it on the same turn, and then you deck yourself into lab maniac and win instantly.
But wait, what if they snipe your lab maniac? Easy, just craterhoof behemoth them in the face, that'll kill them too.
Craterhoof Behemoth is so friggin' nasty in this deck that I've been thinking of throwing one or two more in and replacing Rampaging Baloths with him as well.
The deck is much more consistant. You have 3 Surges instead of 1, and you have exponentially more dig. You should draw it by the turn 3 or 4 no problem, and the massive amount of power of mana this deck can generate? You should be able to cast primal surge by turn 3~4.
The deck already IS consistent. You can search for Primal Surge on turn three and cast it turn 4 around 70% of the time because of search. The only thing that could mess this up is a little mill at the perfect time. I honestly like to wait until the end of their turn 4 and flash in Maralen with a Vial. Sure, you cast Primal Surge on turn 5, but you still win if they don't have a Cryptic Command. And if they do, then you win when you draw.
Oh, and doing it this way has a neat little hidden trick to make you immune to your opponent responding to kill you.
You primal surge combo and are about to win, Lab maniac in play, Prime Speaker trigger on stack that will deck you and OH SHOOT
They vapor snag your lab maniac!
Oh except... You respond by saccing your Solemn sim with Miren the Moaning well, decking yourself a second time in response to snag. If they have a second out in hand, then you prolly lose.
If you want more security, Alchemist's Apprentice / Ior Ruin Expedition are both strong ways to be hard to answer by another deck, if you have multiple out you can repeatedly respond to your opponent by winning another time until they run out of answers.
I prefer miren the moaning well, as it doesnt take up a spell slot, while still being very useful.
I've actually been thinking of going the Kessig Wolf Run route. If all my mana dorks have haste, then I can tap them for mana. My lands will be on the battlefield, so there's no telling how much mana I'll have access to after Surge resolves and the stack is gone. But, I know it'll be a crapload.
Or, maybe there's something in modern that lets you sac creatures or lands to deal damage? Then it wouldn't be combat damage you could be killing them with, which I'm pretty sure that's only what fog and holy day prevent.
Thanks for the advice so far, everybody. I feel these suggestions have made it more difficult for an opponent to tear down the work you're putting in to be able to win.
to further protect yourself from any tricks that people could play at you, you can add a single Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Archetype of Endurance that will make all your creatures almost impossible to remove once Primal Surge resolves.
except gimmicky stuff like Evacuation or your worst enemy.... a instant miracled Terminus nothing will be able to stop you... lol.
once you resolve Primal Surge.... you MUST win always against anything... lol.
Probably just adding that Grand Abolisher will cover 99,999% of all cases....
you also need stuff that enters the battlefield and gets rid of problem cards such as Platinum Angel
maybe a single Oblivion Ring does the trick.....
well, you do need some things to warrant the cast and some other things to make reaction absolutely impossible.
but the deck can be quite powerful if you manage to make the cast of Primal Surge happen consistently before turn 5.
Since we're aiming for turn 4 Primal Surge, we're gonna have to race them.
That's not a problem with me, because I'm pretty sure storm decks have the same clock on us that we have on them. So, combo matchups should be a glorious race to the finish.
Also, don't forget that the sideboard is completely open at the moment.
My buddy is in the process of making a wall deck like that, but with eldrazi like Emrakul and It that Betrays. It's a funny thing to watch somebody play with.
to further protect yourself from any tricks that people could play at you, you can add a single Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Archetype of Endurance that will make all your creatures almost impossible to remove once Primal Surge resolves.
With Asceticism and Privileged Posistion main decked, I don't think I need to add any more hexproof.
Funny you should mention Avacyn, because my brother and I were talking about adding a single of her in here. We'd end up having to completely redo the land base, though. And just for a card that only has one copy in the deck, I don't think it'd be worth it.
SDT is banned in modern(thank god), so that's not a problem. I love the Grand Abolisher idea, though. But once again, it would involve adding another color. Is there an artifact or G/B permanent card that does the same thing?
Or, I could go with City of Brass instead of 4 other lands...
That wouldn't be bad.
Also, how do you feel about Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir?
once you resolve Primal Surge.... you MUST win always against anything... lol.
Probably just adding that Grand Abolisher will cover 99,999% of all cases....
you also need stuff that enters the battlefield and gets rid of problem cards such as Platinum Angel
maybe a single Oblivion Ring does the trick.....
An O. Ring isn't a bad idea. I've been thinking of Acidic Slime because he's pretty diverse at what he can kill. Platinum Angelis an artifact, after all.
well, you do need some things to warrant the cast and some other things to make reaction absolutely impossible.
but the deck can be quite powerful if you manage to make the cast of Primal Surge happen consistently before turn 5.
It's consistent enough to happen by turn five each time, definitely. I just want to make it a smidgen more consistent to go off on turn 4, so it'll be up above 80% turn 4 Surge each time you play it.
I don't get much all that "problem adding another color" stuff in a deck that's trying to cast Primal Surge....
it'll enter the battlefield either way... You can't cast avacyn from your hand... so what?
all you can hope is that you don't draw it before casting primal surge or use something that can put it back in the top of your deck somehow.
but if you choose not having white stuff in your deck, it's fine, and yes, Teferi would be quite good to do the Grand Abolisher job.
I love the Grand Abolisher idea, though. But once again, it would involve adding another color. Is there an artifact or G/B permanent card that does the same thing?
maybe Defense Grid is a possibility to do what you want here, it's an artifact and costs only 2 and is similar to Grand Abolisher.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I really like that suggestion. Defense Grid would work perfectly, I feel.
I'll add it to my list of tweaks that I've been making.
I've made a few for the better already, just with the land base and card numbers.
I also decided to go with Mind Stone over Elvish Visionary, not only because it lets us have a controlled draw, but also because it adds to the ramp slightly. Elvish Visionary doesn't help the ramp scene at all now that Elvish Archdruid is out of the picture. So thank you for that suggestion as well, Heskatet.
UPDATE:
I've been tweaking this deck list and testing different cards to try to figure out the best way to hit 10 mana more consistently on turn 4, and this is what I've came up with(as far as actually play-testing the cards go):
Key changes:
- Arbor Elf is Offically replacing Birds of Paradise for my 1-drop creature now that I have Heartbeat of Spring and Utopia Sprawl mained. Being able to milk 6 mana out of one land is just too good of an improvement to pass up.
-Maralen of the Mornsong has been replaced by Azusa, Lost but Seeking for obvious reasons. The only thing I'm worried about in this swap is not having enough search, and solely depending on my Liliana Vess to be able to find my Primal Surge. I may end up switching back to vials and Maralen after I test this list out tomorrow night at a tabletop tourney. UPDATE: Azusa got the boot. There aren't enough lands in opening hand to run her properly, so I've replaced her with Rune-Scarred Demon for extra search. It's fairly easy to ramp up to 7 on turn three, so it's been fitting nice and helping out when I come across him.
-Sac lands are Finally making an appearance in my deck list. Abusing Lotus Cobra is such an easy way to gain extra mana, And it's not that steep of a price to pay. Thanks to everybody who suggested I should run this little synergistic way of pumping out free mana.
-I decided to drop Craterhoof Behemoth completely, and roll with 4 Prime Times. I found myself drawing Behemoth on third turn, with access to 6 or more mana, and wishing it was Primeval Titan each and every single time. So, why wish anymore? I fixed it, and can't wait to see how it runs. UPDATE: Craterhoof is out, 4th P. Titan is staying in.
-Courser of Kruphix is a tough call to commit to when it comes down to it and Oracle of Mul Daya. The only reason why I went with Courser, is because it can survive a Lightning Bolt.
Only reason. UPDATE Courser really hasn't helped when I've come across him. I find myself pushing him to the back of my hand and having other priorities to play. I'm thinking of taking him out for Garruk Wildspeaker, because he'd make a huge impact and I don't think that he would be a dead card in my hand, just backup for when the opponent swings at him and takes him out.
Here's the catch: we don't want any sorceries or instants in the deck list.
Anybody care to roll up their sleeves and help me try to tackle this deck idea?
EDIT: the most recently tested deck list
4 Arbor Elf
4 Lotus Cobra
2 Spellskite
1 Dosan the falling Leaf
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Primeval Titan
4 Rune-Scarred Demon
Spells(17):
1 Primal Surge
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Mind Stone
4 Heartbeat of Spring
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Liliana Vess
1 Privileged Position
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Acidic Slime
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Gilt-Leaf Winnower
1 Keening Banshee
3 Trinisphere
2 Eternal Witness
4 Leyline of Sanctity
I can't believe that I didn't take that land into consideration.
I know there's enough mana production to be able to make 10 mana on turn 4, sometimes on turn 3. So, now, we just need to find a good way to search out Primal Surge without using an instant or sorcery to do so.
Those are pretty much the only good ones. I was all excited about Grozoth until I realized it cost 9 not 10. (I think I remember it being a 1-of in old Dragonstorm lists.)
You could also consider cards that thin out your library so you can "cheat" some instants & sorceries into your deck. If they were, say, going to your graveyard, I think Primal Surge makes a pretty nice Sins of the Past target
Not a bad suggestion, but if you get Akroma's Memorial in your opening hand, it's an instant mulligan hand.
At least that's how I feel about it.
Liliana Vess is a Great suggestion! It would be easy to drop on turn 3, and provide us with a turn 4 Primal Surge.
I got excited about the 9-drop transmute creature too, until I counted its CMC to be 9 instead of 10. That bummed me out, and I immediately thought: why can't it cost one more mana(something I never thought I'd say)?!
Thanks for the research, good sir. I very much appreciate it.
I think it's about time to come up with the first deck list for this idea. I'll post my list tomorrow morning, so it'll give me some time to fine tune the first draft.
Feel free to toss up your deck lists on this idea, everybody. The more brainstorming we have, the better this deck will be.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Bloom Tender
4 Joiner Adept
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Maralen of the Mornsong
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Primal Surge
3 Liliana Vess
Artifacts(11):
3 Æther Vial
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Oblivion Stone
1 Akroma's Memorial
Lands(20):
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
1 Forest
EDIT:
I play tested the list a few times and found myself needing more search. So, I cut an Æther Vial and a Ratchet Bomb, and added another Maralen and Liliana Vess.
-1 Æther Vial
-1 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Maralen of the Mornsong
+1 Liliana Vess
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I have been thinking of cutting bloom tenders and replacing them with Elvish Visionary, though.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Devoted Druid
4 Joiner Adept
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Maralen of the Mornsong
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Primal Surge
3 Liliana Vess
1 Asceticism
1 Privileged Position
Artifacts(8):
4 Æther Vial
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Akroma's Memorial
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
1 Forest
It's got trouble against sweepers like Pyroclasm and Anger of The Gods, so I've been trying to find a creature that can help out with either preventing that damage or giving pro-red to my important creatures. Other than that, I have to say that it's a very consistent turn 4 combo. The Vials speed it up a lot faster than just about every other card, other than Maralen.
I've yet to develop a sideboard for this deck, still. But in my defense, I haven't had a chance to test it against any tier one decks yet. As soon as I do get that chance, I'll make sure I write about it.
Forest should be superior to dryad arbor. It doesn't die to creature removal, after all.
Did you give any thought to the rune scarred demon? I know it costs a lot, but the effect is immediate and doesn't help your opponent at all.
Less creature based ramp might be an option. Utopia sprawl and fertile ground combined with garruk wildspeaker is a horrendously effective ramp suite and sweeper proof.
If you're that dead set on using creatures as rampers, then consider defender ramp instead. You get wall of roots, overgrown battlement, axebane guardian, and possibly even wall of mulch that just got reprinted. They mostly pass the bolt test and surely block better than elves do.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
LANDSTORM
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Wood Elves
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Primeval Titan
//Win Conditions: 10
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Primal Surge
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
8 Forest
This deck can attempt to hit 10 mana for Primal Surge, or it can just drop Prime Time into Eye of Ugin and go to town with Ulamog, or it can just hardcast Craterhoof for beatdown. I guess you could ramp into Rune-Scarred Demons and tutor up Primal Surge, but it seems easier to just cram in synergistic alternate win conditions. As far as I know, the most successful deck crammed fill with mana dorks and permanents was the Sovereigns deck. If we're ramping to 10 and using 6 as a road bump up to 10 (via Prime Time), might as well cheat out Eldrazi Conscriptions too.
The other main line of permanent-based ramp deck I can think of is Valakut ramp. You can cram this combo into an Jund Valakut ramp shell with all permanents (STE, Courser, etc.), the Valakut+1G enchantment, Prime Times, Rune-Scarred Demons, the Primal Surge combo.
I cheat in Maralen with aæther vial at the end of my opponents turn so I'm the only one that gets to use her ability by searching for my Primal Surge and casting it with Boseiju.
If I could cheat in a Forest with Æther Vial, I'd agree with you.
I have given it a lot of thought. I've been thinking of replacing Liliana Vess with him.
I'm not that dead-set on using creatures. I like the idea of using enchantment ramp, and that would solve the problems with board sweeps. But, it makes the deck prone to Tec Edges and Ghost Quarters. I'll have to make up an alternate deck list to test out based on this approach to see which one is harder to disrupt.
I'm not so sure about Omniscience, but I like where you're going as well with your enchantment ramp suggestions. UG would make me want to run counters, and I'm trying to avoid that. But I'll see what I can come up with. Feel free to share your own UG idea, I'd love to see it.
Much more effective and safer, Laboratory maniac + elvish Visionary.
Run a singleton Asceticism in the deck.
Your best way to tutor is to run as much dig as you can, and have craterhoof as a an alt win con. Or just play it.
Because, in all seriousness, the best way to cast Primal surge is to ramp into it, but there are just better and cheaper spells to ramp into that kill a lot more reliably. Craterhoof being the big one.
Why primal surge into a weak win con that can die to disruption when you can cast Craterhoof and just win way faster?
If you feel you absolutely need to cast primal surge though, you want:
Elvish visionary x4
Coiling Oracle x4
Augur of Bolas x3
Laboratory Maniac x1
Asceticism x1
+whatever else you want.
I like how you did the ramp system in your list. It seems pretty consistent. Have you tested it out, or did you just throw it together?
The Jund Valakut approach sounds like a blast, to be completely honest...
How?
What is a dead card when you play an uncounterable Primal Surge on turn 4?
Everything has hexproof except Provileged Position. That means you'll have to blow through Privileged Posistion just to get to asceticism, blow it up as well, and THEN remove the kill. which would be about 6 4/4 beast tokens(shooting for an average number), a crap-ton of little creatures, and rampaging baloths gaining support from Akroma's Memorial and a Craterhoof that makes your creatures huge. So even those 1/1 ramp weenies are now 20/20 haste, vigilance, trample, flying, first strikers.
Well That's no fun.
Magic is about having fun and creating entertaining decks.
This deck idea is entertaining to me, so I'm going try(with the help of all the kind people here) to make it as competitive as possible.
I do.
And something to back it up.
If you draw a card after Surge resolves, but before Laboratory Maniac resolves, you lose the game.
"draw a card."
You: "Crap, my whole library is on the stack... I don't have a card to draw."
What's cheaper ramp than what I have?
waiwhat?
How is my win con weak?
Do you even understand how the deck works?
One final question: you do see that I run Boseiju, Who Shelters All, right?
Once again, I don't like the draw approach in this deck.
I appreciate the suggestions and critique, though. If you want to pursue this deck more and come up with a list, feel free. I've already got a few variants that I'm working on for this idea and don't really want to pick up another.
At first,maybe you should also consider utility creatures like Viridian Shaman Viridian Zealot to handle cards like Ensnaring Bridge, or Ghostly Prison. Also some ramp which provides you a win on the spot with Laboratory Maniac is Mind Stone. Along with the ramp from Heartbeat of Spring and Dictate of Karametra it will not be as easy to remove like the creature ramp.
Greetings Heskatet
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Akroma's Memorial
These cards are all dead cards in hand, you want them in your deck and get messed up if you draw them the first few turns. Lab maniac and visionary on the other hand are still useful cards to play before you surge in fact, the main combo piece, Elvish Visionary, helps you dig for your primal surge. Akroma's memorial wont get you your primal surge.
We assume you are building to win. If you arent building to win, then whats the point of this entire post? You wanted advice to make your deck better, I gave it. If you wanted a fun deck then you shouldn't have asked us how to make it better, because the better a deck is at winning faster and more consistently, the less fun it is for everyone else because you keep winning.
And I'll tell you right now, a deck that draws 6~7 cards a turn and vomits stuff onto the field without even casting primal surge (the deck I pitched) is way more fun then "whoops I didn't draw primal surge, guess Im gonna slowly mana ramp up to ulamog while my opponent kills me" is not going to be fun to play. You will be roflstomped by any half decent control deck who knows what they are doing. Land destruction is a thing, and you need to play around it. A good combo deck is a combo deck that can win without the combo, but just by turning the creatures sideways too. Your list can do that but, not as well as the list I will propose at the bottom
Redundancy issue again. It's unnecessary and clogs the deck up. You just need a singleton Asceticism to pitch out. anything more will just make it harder to actually get to your primal surge. You want bare bones here, the less pieces in your combo, the better you are at actually casting surge.
What are you even talking about? You need to learn how the spell works if you want to build a deck around it.
All of your ETB triggers off of Surge won't trigger until you are done resolving surge
Which means you vomit your whole deck into play, then all your triggers happen.
Which means lab maniac will be in play (you just surged him out), your library is empty (you surged it all out) and now you have many draw triggers on the stack (off your multitude of creatures that can all do it) and they all have hexproof (asceticism)
No silver bullets that beat you here, you pretty much win, and your opponent can't intervene. The only out I can think of is Notion Thief
Your win con relies on multiple pieces, you need to cast primal surge AND have multiple cards all in your deck AND be able to swing AND swing for game on THAT swing.
You know what makes you instantly lose for 1 mana? Fog. Your opponent fogs. You lose because you deck yourself next turn. Or aetherize or cyclonic rift or any other mutlitude of ways. You are relying on a secondary win con here, and that will cost you games.
Lab maniac combo is just harder to disrupt. Cyclonic Rift, Notion Thief, I think those are pretty much the only instant speed ways to disrupt the combo.
Your combo loses to: Fog, Aetherize, holy Day, Martyr (which will have enough life to survive your swing), any indestructible creature that can block ulamog, Cryptic command with the "tap all creatures" mode, turn 1 thoughtseize/duress (oh no they sniped it out of your hand turn 1 when you kept it, GG) so on and so forth.
Here you go:
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Primal Surge
4 Amulet of Vigor
Enablers/ramp: 26
4 Primeval Titan
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Sakura-Tribe Scout
3 Khalni Heart Expedition
4 coiling oracle
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 elvish visionary
3 augur of bolas
4 forest
1 island
4 misty rainforest
4 breeding pool
4 simic growth chamber
1 gruul turf
1 golgari rot farm
1 selesnya sanctuary
1 vesuva
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Cavern of Souls
This deck can do a lot more than just durdle til you primal surge. We have the Amulet of vigor combos in the deck, since we are already in UG and have the prime times, and it also combos deliciously with Primal Surge.
Primal surge -> Vomit some karoo lands into play + an amulet of vigor or two -> stack your triggers so they untap -> get 6~8 mana -> Also get a big draw in off of Prime Speaker Zegana or Regal Force -> Draw a bunch more cards -> Cast another primal surge
Stack the triggers right and you should have np. You'll have a LOT of ETB triggers to generate more than enough mana to do another primal surge. Resolve 1 and it will cascade into you getting more mana and cards to cast another right after it on the same turn, and then you deck yourself into lab maniac and win instantly.
But wait, what if they snipe your lab maniac? Easy, just craterhoof behemoth them in the face, that'll kill them too.
The deck is much more consistant. You have 3 Surges instead of 1, and you have exponentially more dig. You should draw it by the turn 3 or 4 no problem, and the massive amount of power of mana this deck can generate? You should be able to cast primal surge by turn 3~4.
Oh, and doing it this way has a neat little hidden trick to make you immune to your opponent responding to kill you.
You primal surge combo and are about to win, Lab maniac in play, Prime Speaker trigger on stack that will deck you and OH SHOOT
They vapor snag your lab maniac!
Oh except... You respond by saccing your Solemn sim with Miren the Moaning well, decking yourself a second time in response to snag. If they have a second out in hand, then you prolly lose.
If you want more security, Alchemist's Apprentice / Ior Ruin Expedition are both strong ways to be hard to answer by another deck, if you have multiple out you can repeatedly respond to your opponent by winning another time until they run out of answers.
I prefer miren the moaning well, as it doesnt take up a spell slot, while still being very useful.
I've been thinking of using an Acidic Slime so I can deal with things like Ensnaring Bridge and GP. I'd hate not being able to swing because somebody dropped a bridge and didn't have any cards in hand.
Thank you for your input, sir!
The only one of those cards I have in my deck is Akroma's Memorial, and it can be played on turn three. Far from a dead card in your hand because of all the ramp, And it gives all your creatures pro-black and pro-red along with haste.
The 2 games I started with Memorial in my hand, I won.
Yes, I do want to win. But, I want to win while having a good time. That's why I come up with off-the-wall ideas and try to make them competitive. Sometimes they don't work(as might be the case with this deck), but sometimes they do(ex: my Purphorus RUG deck that nobody around here can seem to beat). This is also part of the fun of magic.
At least to me, that is.
There's plenty of setting up to do before you cast Surge, and it's all early game. So your early game is Spoken for every single time you even think of playing with this deck.
I do wish to draw into Surge, yes. But only when I need it. That's why I have 7 Search engines in place. I don't want to draw randomness or something I can't cast.
How would playing a visionary and drawing another vial help me?
It wouldn't. and, it'd take up precious time when I should be dropping things that produce(more) mana.
No, you don't. Somebody can blow through your one Asceticism and still remove whatever they want. I don't want that to happen. Plus, a turn 3 Privileged Position always throws people's plans out the window.
You're right, you do get to minipulate how you want abilities to go on the stack. I didn't know that part.
It makes this deck a lot easier than I thought to run.
My win-con is an uncounterable Primal Surge that makes my Akroma's Memorial and Craterhoof Behemoth hit the battlefield. Lab Maniac is just for Fog security, and Asceticism and Privileged position are my second win-cons security blanket because Memorial gives Pro-red. I've also been thinking of putting in a single Everlasting Torment or Leyline of Punishment in this deck ever since I came up with the idea.
EDIT: I've been giving what you've been saying a lot of thought, and I see where you're coming from now. Lab maniac and "draw a card" would be so much more effective, and rely on combat damage as the 2nd win-con.
Sorry it's taken me so long to realize this.
I've been fogged. It led me to win during my next draw step.
How?
That "redundancy" problem I have kept my lab maniac alive long enough for me to make it to my draw step.
You can't target something with hexproof if you're the opponent.
One in every 10 opening hands you Might see a Surge.
That's it.
And, there are ways to win other than surging your whole library onto the battlefield. So I'm voiding the targeted hand disruption conversation.
We've been over how my deck doesn't lose to fog, so the same applies to Holy Day.
Even if I had Ulamog in the deck, just an indestructible creature wouldn't stop him for long. Doesn't he make people sac permanents each time he's declared as an attacker?
The extra Primal Surges throw me off and makes it so I don't like this deck list. You don't need more than one primal surge.
I do kinda like some of your early-game drops, though. And P. Titan is always a great guy to throw in any green deck idea.
It's time for me to start switching out elves and using different means of ramp. I'll have a new deck list soon. Thanks again for discussing this deck with me, I appreciate your input.
Craterhoof Behemoth is so friggin' nasty in this deck that I've been thinking of throwing one or two more in and replacing Rampaging Baloths with him as well.
The deck already IS consistent. You can search for Primal Surge on turn three and cast it turn 4 around 70% of the time because of search. The only thing that could mess this up is a little mill at the perfect time. I honestly like to wait until the end of their turn 4 and flash in Maralen with a Vial. Sure, you cast Primal Surge on turn 5, but you still win if they don't have a Cryptic Command. And if they do, then you win when you draw.
I've actually been thinking of going the Kessig Wolf Run route. If all my mana dorks have haste, then I can tap them for mana. My lands will be on the battlefield, so there's no telling how much mana I'll have access to after Surge resolves and the stack is gone. But, I know it'll be a crapload.
Or, maybe there's something in modern that lets you sac creatures or lands to deal damage? Then it wouldn't be combat damage you could be killing them with, which I'm pretty sure that's only what fog and holy day prevent.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Devoted Druid
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Maralen of the Mornsong
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Primeval Titan
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Primal Surge
3 Liliana Vess
1 Asceticism
1 Privileged Position
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Heartbeat of Spring
Artifacts(4):
3 Æther Vial
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
5 Forest
I've been thinking of whether or not Garruk Wildspeaker would be worth putting in now that Utopia Sprawl and Heartbeat of Spring have been added.
Thanks for the advice so far, everybody. I feel these suggestions have made it more difficult for an opponent to tear down the work you're putting in to be able to win.
to further protect yourself from any tricks that people could play at you, you can add a single Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Archetype of Endurance that will make all your creatures almost impossible to remove once Primal Surge resolves.
except gimmicky stuff like Evacuation or your worst enemy.... a instant miracled Terminus nothing will be able to stop you... lol.
still, you can always include a Grand Abolisher, Damping Matrix, Stony Silence or something in your sideboard to avoid instant terminus from Sensei's Divining top
once you resolve Primal Surge.... you MUST win always against anything... lol.
Probably just adding that Grand Abolisher will cover 99,999% of all cases....
you also need stuff that enters the battlefield and gets rid of problem cards such as Platinum Angel
maybe a single Oblivion Ring does the trick.....
well, you do need some things to warrant the cast and some other things to make reaction absolutely impossible.
but the deck can be quite powerful if you manage to make the cast of Primal Surge happen consistently before turn 5.
the same thing every combo deck does against other combo decks... try and combo faster.
Since we're aiming for turn 4 Primal Surge, we're gonna have to race them.
That's not a problem with me, because I'm pretty sure storm decks have the same clock on us that we have on them. So, combo matchups should be a glorious race to the finish.
Also, don't forget that the sideboard is completely open at the moment.
My buddy is in the process of making a wall deck like that, but with eldrazi like Emrakul and It that Betrays. It's a funny thing to watch somebody play with.
With Asceticism and Privileged Posistion main decked, I don't think I need to add any more hexproof.
Funny you should mention Avacyn, because my brother and I were talking about adding a single of her in here. We'd end up having to completely redo the land base, though. And just for a card that only has one copy in the deck, I don't think it'd be worth it.
Ouch. Yeah, those would be rough to see and really tough to recover from.
SDT is banned in modern(thank god), so that's not a problem. I love the Grand Abolisher idea, though. But once again, it would involve adding another color. Is there an artifact or G/B permanent card that does the same thing?
Or, I could go with City of Brass instead of 4 other lands...
That wouldn't be bad.
Also, how do you feel about Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir?
An O. Ring isn't a bad idea. I've been thinking of Acidic Slime because he's pretty diverse at what he can kill. Platinum Angel is an artifact, after all.
It's consistent enough to happen by turn five each time, definitely. I just want to make it a smidgen more consistent to go off on turn 4, so it'll be up above 80% turn 4 Surge each time you play it.
This is indeed the approach that's the most fun, that's for sure.
it'll enter the battlefield either way... You can't cast avacyn from your hand... so what?
all you can hope is that you don't draw it before casting primal surge or use something that can put it back in the top of your deck somehow.
but if you choose not having white stuff in your deck, it's fine, and yes, Teferi would be quite good to do the Grand Abolisher job.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I'll add it to my list of tweaks that I've been making.
I've made a few for the better already, just with the land base and card numbers.
I also decided to go with Mind Stone over Elvish Visionary, not only because it lets us have a controlled draw, but also because it adds to the ramp slightly. Elvish Visionary doesn't help the ramp scene at all now that Elvish Archdruid is out of the picture. So thank you for that suggestion as well, Heskatet.
The upgraded Surge list:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Maralen of the Mornsong
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Primeval Titan
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Spells(12):
1 Primal Surge
3 Liliana Vess
1 Privileged Position
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Heartbeat of Spring
3 Æther Vial
3 Mind Stone
1 Defense Grid
1 Akroma's Memorial
Lands(24):
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Breeding Pool
1 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
5 Forest
I've been tweaking this deck list and testing different cards to try to figure out the best way to hit 10 mana more consistently on turn 4, and this is what I've came up with(as far as actually play-testing the cards go):
4 Arbor Elf
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Primeval Titan
3 Rune-Scarred Demon
Spells(13):
1 Primal Surge
3 Liliana Vess
1 Privileged Position
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Heartbeat of Spring
2 Mind Stone
1 Defense Grid
1 Akroma's Memorial
Lands(24):
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Breeding Pool
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
3 Forest
Key changes:
- Arbor Elf is Offically replacing Birds of Paradise for my 1-drop creature now that I have Heartbeat of Spring and Utopia Sprawl mained. Being able to milk 6 mana out of one land is just too good of an improvement to pass up.
-Maralen of the Mornsong has been replaced by Azusa, Lost but Seeking for obvious reasons. The only thing I'm worried about in this swap is not having enough search, and solely depending on my Liliana Vess to be able to find my Primal Surge. I may end up switching back to vials and Maralen after I test this list out tomorrow night at a tabletop tourney.
UPDATE: Azusa got the boot. There aren't enough lands in opening hand to run her properly, so I've replaced her with Rune-Scarred Demon for extra search. It's fairly easy to ramp up to 7 on turn three, so it's been fitting nice and helping out when I come across him.
-Sac lands are Finally making an appearance in my deck list. Abusing Lotus Cobra is such an easy way to gain extra mana, And it's not that steep of a price to pay. Thanks to everybody who suggested I should run this little synergistic way of pumping out free mana.
-I decided to drop Craterhoof Behemoth completely, and roll with 4 Prime Times. I found myself drawing Behemoth on third turn, with access to 6 or more mana, and wishing it was Primeval Titan each and every single time. So, why wish anymore? I fixed it, and can't wait to see how it runs.
UPDATE: Craterhoof is out, 4th P. Titan is staying in.
-Courser of Kruphix is a tough call to commit to when it comes down to it and Oracle of Mul Daya. The only reason why I went with Courser, is because it can survive a Lightning Bolt.
Only reason.
UPDATE Courser really hasn't helped when I've come across him. I find myself pushing him to the back of my hand and having other priorities to play. I'm thinking of taking him out for Garruk Wildspeaker, because he'd make a huge impact and I don't think that he would be a dead card in my hand, just backup for when the opponent swings at him and takes him out.