I'm pretty sure we have better options than Secluded Glen at this point.
I should say that, in tests, the manabase is the least of our problems. I take probably an additional 2 damage over the course of the game because of the manabase we were using, and at the point where that mattered, Fae was already completely screwed in the game. The only game where I saw Fae miss a drop in my last 40 or so tests was when it had a mutavault instead of a colored land, and that was in a list with only 2 vaults. So mana is probably not the issue in the Melira matchup.
The problem is the deck's current inability to handle resolved Voice of Resurgence or Birthing Pod. It also has a serious problem with a resolved Chord of Calling grabbing Orzhov Pontiff, which tends to wipe everything but a Mistbind. Abrupt Decay doesn't help either, and Deathrite Shaman is a disaster for our Snapcaster Mage. None of the traditional complements of creatures, removal, and countermagic are helping in this matchup.
Now, it's possible that UB Fae just isn't equipped to win the Melira Pod game, in which case maybe we should test UBr or UBw. It might just also prove how weak the card is today. But I would rather have a good, strong list before writing off BB as "safe" for an unbanning, and that means being able to beat the "best" deck in the format.
EDIT: For reference, here are the creatures and spells I am currently using.
But that doesn't solve many of the fundamental problems of the deck, like handling a resolved Pod or dealing with the sheer volume of threats that Pod can use. It's very challenging for the current versions of Fae that I have seen to handle Pod when it decides to just start playing the Finks/Voice beatdown game with DRS and/or Township backup.
Why doesn't the Faeries list have 4 Mutavaults? Why is one random Tectonic Edge more important than that? If anything, it should be 25 lands (which was the norm for the 2 year Hell that was Faeries Standard), 4 Mutavaults, and then maybe a Tech Edge or two. And why aren't there 4 Darkslick Shores?
This is where a Faeries manabase should start:
4 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Mutavault
And then you add Tar Pits/Tech Edges/whatever. But this is the best shell. Darkslick and Glen are the best duals, so you want to max out on those. Mutavault makes the engine work on many levels, so you want 4 of those. This leaves you with 12 lands and therefore 13 open slots, where you can put Tar Pits and Tech Edges or whatever else you want in there, but it should start with those 12. A number of fetches, basics, and 1-2 Watery Grave are probably the next step. Maybe a Minamo or some other blue legendary land.
And Faeries was best when it had draw spells. Until Ancestral Vision rotated, that deck was always able to mulligan into either a Vision or Blossom, or just a really controlling draw (for the match-up at hand). After TSP rotated out, Vision went--but people used Jace Beleren for the same job as a 2-3 of in the deck, and it let the Faeries deck actually do more than just cute tricks all game...which is important, because Faeries has a serious problem if its engine gets disrupted hard enough. Now, I'm not sure which draw spell is correct, but there should be something in this deck that actually produces raw card advantage, because Modern is not old Standard and the answers are too efficient and too capable of handling flash threats/Bitterblossom/manlands.
I agree with most of this but Im thinking that 2-4 River of Tears might be a compliment to either of those 8 conditional blue/black sources honestly, stumbling on plays when your lands come in tapped in situations where you want to draw and play a fourth untapped land is a bad thing for this deck.
Drawpower is, in my opinion, a necessity for this deck, however there are so many cards that people feel are necessary to the deck.
btw How do you all feel about cutting scion of Oona? I have seen a few lists cut all of them for space, and I think Mistbind would be the go-to damage source in those situations instead of field-pump with scion, but outside of a tribal pump effect, and a minor removal-spell counter, what is it really doing for the deck? does it make any matchups better? Id say you could go with the main 3 faeries that have an effect on the opponent's turn and most likely snapcasters to produce a form of card advantage. Making room for 3-4 spell snare is a must and I believe that the only cards you could cut in a lot of the lists is the main-deck scion, especially if voice of resurgence is the problem that it obviously is.
Id say card-draw, since the lists are so tight, should be kept to a singleton ,but top-decking with this deck is pretty bad...some players do it well, and play with no card draw because of the value they gain from their cards. The tightly knit nature of the deck and trying to cram things in gets card draw left out Im guessing.
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I would start by taking the entire list, throwing it in the trash, and rebuilding it from the ground up. I don't understand this 1-of 1-of -1of removal suite with a Smother, a Go For the Throat, etc. and no Gifts or Teachings to justify it. Pick a removal spell that works, and play 4 of them. Pick counterspells that work, and play 4-ofs of them. Cryptic needs to be a 4-of...every single Faeries list ever ran 4 of that card because it's ridiculous. I don't know why there are less than 4 Cryptics in a Faeries list--and why anyone would want to cut another one--when an important goal is to have something to remove a resolved Birthing Pod.
If the problem is Voice of Resurgence, I ask this: Why aren't Spell Snares already in this deck as a 4-of? That card is fantastic against 80% of the field or more, it's always +1 mana advantage (in the name of tempo), and it helps the deck when it's on the draw. Playing a set of Snares is a pretty good place to start.
If pods keep resolving, the deck should be either killing mana dorks (which means Deathmark or Dismember or Disfigure; Peppersmoke doesn't kill Deathrite so it's not a viable option), or it should be Thoughtseizeing them away (which is why IoK sucks), or it should play Pithing Needle/Grafdigger's Cage on it, or it should be playing Shadow of Doubt and/or Squelch, etc. If you stop the Pod, your can race most of the pressure from these decks with a Blossom. It's a bunch of x/1s and x/2s. Free 1/1 fliers trade really well with that kind of army. Even Voice isn't that big of a deal...if you don't have a Snare/Thoughtseize for it on turn 1 on the draw, you can just play a Blossom on turn 1 and then Deathmark it turn 3 with 2 open for countermagic/a Stifle effect for pod. Who cares about one token? You have a Blossom on the table and 4 Cryptics in your deck; it's an insignificant threat.
I would also go read what PV had to say about the deck, since he's arguably the best Faeries player in the history of the deck. He's also one of the first people to recognize the power level of Vendilion Clique.
I agree with most of this but Im thinking that 2-4 River of Tears might be a compliment to either of those 8 conditional blue/black sources honestly, stumbling on plays when your lands come in tapped in situations where you want to draw and play a fourth untapped land is a bad thing for this deck.
River of Tears was always good in Faeries. I agree with you. I think Darkslick is generally a better card because it's more reliable (black removal needs to be cast on your opponent's turn), but it's a reasonable land to play a couple of.
Drawpower is, in my opinion, a necessity for this deck, however there are so many cards that people feel are necessary to the deck.
btw How do you all feel about cutting scion of Oona? I have seen a few lists cut all of them for space, and I think Mistbind would be the go-to damage source in those situations instead of field-pump with scion, but outside of a tribal pump effect, and a minor removal-spell counter, what is it really doing for the deck? does it make any matchups better? Id say you could go with the main 3 faeries that have an effect on the opponent's turn and most likely snapcasters to produce a form of card advantage. Making room for 3-4 spell snare is a must and I believe that the only cards you could cut in a lot of the lists is the main-deck scion, especially if voice of resurgence is the problem that it obviously is.
Mistbind Clique and Scion are at their best when being use to produce 2-for-1s or to really up the clock. Scion is good at countering spot removal (including Abrupt Decay on a Blossom). Mistbind is good at being a Plumeveil in combat against aggro. Both mess up combat math when mana is open. I think it depends on whether people play things like Volcanic Fallout, how hard it is to actually resolve a Mistbind Clique through removal/counters, and how relevant Mistbind is in upkeeps (which can be very good against combo decks like Finkel's storm list). Honestly, the Mistbind/Scion/both/neither question is a bit up in the air. It depends on the metagame. Most of the rest of the deck should be certainties, though...
Id say card-draw, since the lists are so tight, should be kept to a singleton ,but top-decking with this deck is pretty bad...some players do it well, and play with no card draw because of the value they gain from their cards. The tightly knit nature of the deck and trying to cram things in gets card draw left out Im guessing.
Playing 3-4 draw spells makes the deck run way more smoothly. It gives it reach. Faeries is one of those decks that always frustrates opponents because the Faeries player "always has" X spell...well, playing draw spells is the best way to "always have it." Whether it's Think Twice or Beleren or Ingenuity or whatever, there should be something along these lines.
EDIT: Or Whispers of the Muse, which I've been thinking about lately (especially in Tron lists)...I like the way thnkr looks at it.
Spell Snare isn't necessarily a 1-of because there isn't necessarily room for it. I've been sometimes upset at how few Faeries I run with 20 Faeries (4 Mutavault, 4 Mistbind Clique, 4 V. Clique, 4 Spellstutter Sprite, 4 Bitterblossom), then I need a mana base, then I want Cryptic Command, then I need spot removal, then I want 2-cmc counterspells because they deal with most things, then I want targeted discard because mana dorks, Voice, Thrun, targeted discard, and Abrupt Decay are stinkers, then Tiago at least raises my Pod match-up somewhat...all of a sudden, I don't have room for Spell Snare anymore.
Birthing Pod actually makes a somewhat bad Cryptic bounce target in Pod because it can slam down an infinite combo or bring in the beats (i.e. you might want the counter, cantrip, or tap options more). Probably the best bouncing time is when they play an expensive creature and you counter it + bounce Pod. Otherwise, Pod just comes right down again and tutors that turn, possibly through Mana Leak.
We're currently playing removal splits because, unlike stuff like Path to Exile or Terminate, black removal spells can't deal with everything:
Victim of Night requires double black and misses Vampires/Werewolves/Zombies (Huntmaster/Sculler/Putrid Leech/Olivia Voldaren/Viscera Seer/Mutavault/etc.), although at least it hits the most guys
Disfigure, although it's cheaper than all of the above (so it kills mana dorks in time and Bob faster without being really painful), misses X/3+'s
That list of removal spells/explanations basically says the following to me:
"Smother and Dismember kill everything you care about in the format. Everything else is going to get countered because this is a Faeries deck and that's what it does."
And if you actually wanted to play Spell Snares, you would play Spell Snares. A one-drop does not have to compete with 3-drops and 4-drops for its slot in a tempo deck.
Maybe move on to other matchups? Pod may be just a bad matchup. Which is fine. Many decks have them.
For a card to be ban-worthy, it doesn't necessarily have to be good in its original deck, just too good in general. If the goal is to get it unbanned, then it may be most broken in a non-faeries shell, so those should be tested as well. Maybe it is broken in some other context that wizards have realized but we haven't?
Alternative decks that it *might* push over the top such as Jund or W/B tokens
I think maybe people are losing sight of the forest (figure out if BB is too good) for the trees (tuning and playtesting a single specific matchup.)
Yes, I do think Wizards tests these things. But I also think it is a monumental task. You have only just glimpsed the tip of the iceberg.
Also, what about Perilous Research in Faeries? Instant Speed, a cheap source of Card Advantage, and is a way to get rid of Bitterblossom once you don't want it anymore.
Mist bind clique already gets rid of bitter blossom for you actually
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
If you need a solid urw control list, I would go with this list that has been constant in it's top 8's lately:
3 snapcaster Mage
4 electrolyze
4 cryptic command
3 spell snare
3 lightning bolt
3 mana leak
2 lightning helix
2 sphinx's revelation
2 path to exile
2 think twice
1 shadow of doubt
2 supreme verdict
1 wrath of god
1 ajani vengeant
1 Gideon Jura
4 scalding tarn
3 arid Mesa
2 hallowed fountain
1 glacial fortress
1 sacred foundry
1 steam vents
2 sulfur falls
3 island
1 mountain
1 plains
3 tectonic edge
4 celestial colinnade
Sb
2 spellskite
2 stony silence
2 sowing salt
2 celestial purge
2 relic of progenitus
1 shadow of doubt
1 surgical extraction
1 disenchant
2 counterflux
I've found a version that's doing a little bit better against Junk. The matchup seems to have gone from almost unwinnable to more even. Lingering Souls can overwhelm the BB tokens in a hurry without Scion of Oona to pump, and Voice of Resurgence is still annoying but more manageable.
If I had to take a guess, I'd say it feels closer to 40/60 now, just a little unfavorable. If I play well, I think I can play my way out of it about half the time, but it still feels like an uphill battle with Voice and L-Souls. Post-board its better with Deathmark and Damnation.
More counterspells and less Snapcaster Mages is playing well, but I wonder if its the wrong call half the time...re-using spells is killer when there's no DRS, but useless if a DRS is active. Scion of Oona is gone, and as a result there's not really enough faeries to justify Secluded Glen anymore, and its harder to push past lingering souls tokens and protect BB from Abrupt Decay. Games that I can stick a Bitterblossom I can usually grind out in the long run. Taking Abrupt Decay with discard seems to be the key.
I want to find room to move the 2x Swords to the mainboard but I don't feel like its safe to cut anything without compromising game-1 vs some part of the field. Maybe a metagame call?
Do you like this list better? Other changes you'd try? Maindeck the swords?
It does look better. I still think less than 4 Cryptic Command is just wrong, but I like the disruption package in the deck (apart from that).
Annul is more useful than Steel Sabotage in the sideboard because it answers Blood Moon on turn 1 on the draw, which is relevant against Affinity and can also be very relevant against Splinter Twin (where it counters the namesake Enchantment and Spellskites for one mana, and therefore is a reasonable anti-Moon card to bring in). This is nitpicking, though--it's one narrow answer for another, but it does make a pretty huge difference when Affinity or Twin tries to turn 5/6 of the manabase into mountains.
I like that the manabase has exactly 11 turn one black sources, which is about the magic number for casting a one drop on turn 1 on the draw (i.e. when you need it most).
If the manabase was built more to support it (more fetches, more shocks, more basic Islands, only blue fetches, almost no basic swamps), Shackles might be an option. If you don't need to get 2BB or 1UBB to cast Damnation or animate a Tar Pit because you cut Damnation and run Faerie Conclave instead, that means the black needs would be only 13-14 sources for the sake of just being able to cast one discard/removal spell/bitterblossom each turn...that's all it really needs. So that's something to think about. Even if it's just a board option, Shackles messes decks up, and that does overload the targets for Abrupt Decay to make it more possible for a Blossom or Shackles to stick in the long run against something BGx-colored.
I would definitely put a set of Shadow of Doubt into the 75 of that test deck, because that's exactly the kind of cheap, 2-for-1, instant-speed kick in the balls that belongs in Faeries, and it's particularly good at shafting Birthing Pod.
I've found a version that's doing a little bit better against Junk. The matchup seems to have gone from almost unwinnable to more even. Lingering Souls can overwhelm the BB tokens in a hurry without Scion of Oona to pump, and Voice of Resurgence is still annoying but more manageable.
If I had to take a guess, I'd say it feels closer to 40/60 now, just a little unfavorable. If I play well, I think I can play my way out of it about half the time, but it still feels like an uphill battle with Voice and L-Souls. Post-board its better with Deathmark and Damnation.
More counterspells and less Snapcaster Mages is playing well, but I wonder if its the wrong call half the time...re-using spells is killer when there's no DRS, but useless if a DRS is active. Scion of Oona is gone, and as a result there's not really enough faeries to justify Secluded Glen anymore, and its harder to push past lingering souls tokens and protect BB from Abrupt Decay. Games that I can stick a Bitterblossom I can usually grind out in the long run. Taking Abrupt Decay with discard seems to be the key.
I want to find room to move the 2x Swords to the mainboard but I don't feel like its safe to cut anything without compromising game-1 vs some part of the field. Maybe a metagame call?
Do you like this list better? Other changes you'd try? Maindeck the swords?
This list makes me sad that bitterblossom is banned...I'd say thats a really nice looking list
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I'm not sure its right to run the full 4x Cryptics. The 4 drop spot is pretty loaded between the Commands and the Mistbind Cliques. I find if I run the full set without bumping the land up by one, I get 4-drops piling up in hand sometimes. I figure the M-Cliques are required to kill people and close out games, and the rest of the counter package should be able to handle an opponent with one Cryptic missing. Cryptic is a good card, but Mistbind performs the same 'counter' function by tapping the opponent out to prevent them from playing, plus it leaves a big 4/4 body behind to boot.
Annul vs. Steel Sabotage
I'm on the fence, but I don't think it matters in the long run - its a metagame call as sideboards always are. On one hand, steel Sabotage on a loaded up Inkmoth Nexus is game over for Robots, but Annul can also play an ancillary role for the few relevant enchantments in Modern. I'll go ahead and change it. -2 Steel Sabotage (SB), +2 Annul (SB)
Shackles
Sideboards to me have to be tuned for the individual tournament, and nitpicking it is a little beyond the scope of the 'broad strokes' nature of this particular test. Each event has to be prepared for individually. The artifact plan is probably pretty good if your meta calls for it and you can fit an Academy Ruins, Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt, Crystal Shard, etc in there. Different strokes for different folks. If you want to propose a more researched sideboard for the Gauntlet decks in particular, go for it. I'll happily adopt it.
Shadow of Doubt
I like it. That's some hot and dangerous tech. I'm not sure if I can fit the full playset, but 2 should be enough to get a feel for it.
Based on the posts in the previous pages, here is the list I will be testing. Special thanks to CrazyMike for smoothing that last list out that we were using some pages back.
The only tweak I made was -1 Mistbind and +1 Cryptic, to keep the full set of Command while not overloading our 4 CMC slot. I'm not sold on a sideboard yet, a sentiment that appears to be shared by posters on the thread, so I won't bother with testing games 2 and 3 yet. But I will take this updated list and re-run the 15/15 matchups against Melira Pod. Will report back soon.
The only exclusion that I am not sold on is Snapcaster, but I can appreciate that he might clog up the deck more than he helps.
I'm not sure its right to run the full 4x Cryptics. The 4 drop spot is pretty loaded between the Commands and the Mistbind Cliques. I find if I run the full set without bumping the land up by one, I get 4-drops piling up in hand sometimes. I figure the M-Cliques are required to kill people and close out games, and the rest of the counter package should be able to handle an opponent with one Cryptic missing. Cryptic is a good card, but Mistbind performs the same 'counter' function by tapping the opponent out to prevent them from playing, plus it leaves a big 4/4 body behind to boot.
Annul vs. Steel Sabotage
I'm on the fence, but I don't think it matters in the long run - its a metagame call as sideboards always are. On one hand, steel Sabotage on a loaded up Inkmoth Nexus is game over for Robots, but Annul can also play an ancillary role for the few relevant enchantments in Modern. I'll go ahead and change it. -2 Steel Sabotage (SB), +2 Annul (SB)
Shackles
Sideboards to me have to be tuned for the individual tournament, and nitpicking it is a little beyond the scope of the 'broad strokes' nature of this particular test. Each event has to be prepared for individually. The artifact plan is probably pretty good if your meta calls for it and you can fit an Academy Ruins, Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt, Crystal Shard, etc in there. Different strokes for different folks. If you want to propose a more researched sideboard for the Gauntlet decks in particular, go for it. I'll happily adopt it.
Shadow of Doubt
I like it. That's some hot and dangerous tech. I'm not sure if I can fit the full playset, but 2 should be enough to get a feel for it.
Which option is 'better'? Or is it kind of a wash with heavy metagame dependencies?
Between Bitterblossom, Cryptic and Spellstutter, I think we have enough card advantage build into the maindeck. I'd run 3 shadow of doubts over the think twices. I'm going to test this now.
i'd run shadow of doubt, but not maindeck. at worst, its 2cmc draw a card, but in some match ups, that's just not the way to do. i'd probably go with remand or more removal. just more useful over the long run. or even baby jace, as it gives them something else to target and gives us a card advantage engine.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Current tentative list for faeries with BB. This is still a work in progress as it is completely untested. I think it needs a one of sword(probably either light and shadow or fire and ice) and some sort of function of card draw.(none really exist in modern)
Most likely this will delve into another color because UB doesn't really have that much of offer. Green is the most likely candidate then again we need to see some reason this is better than bug midrange.(I see no reasons so far)
Red and white are other options but then we are stepping into other decks that may perform better. To me it seems like deck would almost also need ancestral visions just to be workable.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Regarding your problems with VoR and LS, try Echoing Truth. It can answer LS outright, and it can buy you turns to out-tempo against VoR (the token VoR makes will also be on the field before ET resolves, allowing you to play it on their turn and not care).
Hey admins, would you maybe do a separate category for banned cards testings? It's ok if people test only bitterblossom in Faeries, but some more organized approach would give some breathing space for bitterblossom in non-Faeries and non-bitterblossom in non-Faeries. It would make the problem of unfair bans more recognizable too.
This.
UB Faeries just doesn't seem that strong. What about Jund/Junk Bitterblossom? TokenBlossom? PoxBlossom? There seem like there are many other possible directions to take it. The goal is to test an unbanned bitterblossom, not tune UB faeries.
UB Faeries just doesn't seem that strong. What about Jund/Junk Bitterblossom? TokenBlossom? PoxBlossom? There seem like there are many other possible directions to take it. The goal is to test an unbanned bitterblossom, not tune UB faeries.
In my testing, UB Fae remains terrible against Pod and Junk in games 1 and 2. The big problem alone is Voice of Resurgence, although neither the hand disruption of Junk nor the super topdeck mode of Pod makes that matchup any easier. I am sure that UB Fae would remain relevant against other decks in the field, but I sincerely doubt it will put up anything more than a 50/50 win against non-combo decks.
I'd be willing to test WB Tokens with BB if we can agree that UBx Fae is not the deck that is going to break the card. Before that, I want to test out a few different versions of Fae just to see if I can solve the Voice problem. If Voice isn't around to ruin the game, I believe that Fae has a much better shot. So if Fae can reliably deal with Voice, the deck will become a lot better.
honestly, WB tokens wouldn't run blossom as a 4 of. its way too slow for the effect people want. its good for recovery in the mid/late game after a wipe or something. the deck is better off playing turn 2 anthem, turn 3 spectral/lingering souls. blossom doesn't offer nearly enough pressure, since you don't actually get to start attacking with real pressure until turn 4. i count "real pressure" as having an anthem out. since 4 damage a turn (what you'd have with blossom turn 2, and spectral turn 3) on turn 4 is laughable in a meta of electrolyze and pyroclasm.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Mission Accomplished!
FREE STONEFORGE
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I should say that, in tests, the manabase is the least of our problems. I take probably an additional 2 damage over the course of the game because of the manabase we were using, and at the point where that mattered, Fae was already completely screwed in the game. The only game where I saw Fae miss a drop in my last 40 or so tests was when it had a mutavault instead of a colored land, and that was in a list with only 2 vaults. So mana is probably not the issue in the Melira matchup.
The problem is the deck's current inability to handle resolved Voice of Resurgence or Birthing Pod. It also has a serious problem with a resolved Chord of Calling grabbing Orzhov Pontiff, which tends to wipe everything but a Mistbind. Abrupt Decay doesn't help either, and Deathrite Shaman is a disaster for our Snapcaster Mage. None of the traditional complements of creatures, removal, and countermagic are helping in this matchup.
Now, it's possible that UB Fae just isn't equipped to win the Melira Pod game, in which case maybe we should test UBr or UBw. It might just also prove how weak the card is today. But I would rather have a good, strong list before writing off BB as "safe" for an unbanning, and that means being able to beat the "best" deck in the format.
EDIT: For reference, here are the creatures and spells I am currently using.
I am open to any and all suggestions to improving this. Current thoughts are:
-1 Cryptic Command
-1 Mana Leak
+2 Spell Snare
-1 Disfigure
-1 Thoughtseize
+2 Think Twice
But that doesn't solve many of the fundamental problems of the deck, like handling a resolved Pod or dealing with the sheer volume of threats that Pod can use. It's very challenging for the current versions of Fae that I have seen to handle Pod when it decides to just start playing the Finks/Voice beatdown game with DRS and/or Township backup.
I agree with most of this but Im thinking that 2-4 River of Tears might be a compliment to either of those 8 conditional blue/black sources honestly, stumbling on plays when your lands come in tapped in situations where you want to draw and play a fourth untapped land is a bad thing for this deck.
Drawpower is, in my opinion, a necessity for this deck, however there are so many cards that people feel are necessary to the deck.
btw How do you all feel about cutting scion of Oona? I have seen a few lists cut all of them for space, and I think Mistbind would be the go-to damage source in those situations instead of field-pump with scion, but outside of a tribal pump effect, and a minor removal-spell counter, what is it really doing for the deck? does it make any matchups better? Id say you could go with the main 3 faeries that have an effect on the opponent's turn and most likely snapcasters to produce a form of card advantage. Making room for 3-4 spell snare is a must and I believe that the only cards you could cut in a lot of the lists is the main-deck scion, especially if voice of resurgence is the problem that it obviously is.
Id say card-draw, since the lists are so tight, should be kept to a singleton ,but top-decking with this deck is pretty bad...some players do it well, and play with no card draw because of the value they gain from their cards. The tightly knit nature of the deck and trying to cram things in gets card draw left out Im guessing.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
If the problem is Voice of Resurgence, I ask this: Why aren't Spell Snares already in this deck as a 4-of? That card is fantastic against 80% of the field or more, it's always +1 mana advantage (in the name of tempo), and it helps the deck when it's on the draw. Playing a set of Snares is a pretty good place to start.
If pods keep resolving, the deck should be either killing mana dorks (which means Deathmark or Dismember or Disfigure; Peppersmoke doesn't kill Deathrite so it's not a viable option), or it should be Thoughtseizeing them away (which is why IoK sucks), or it should play Pithing Needle/Grafdigger's Cage on it, or it should be playing Shadow of Doubt and/or Squelch, etc. If you stop the Pod, your can race most of the pressure from these decks with a Blossom. It's a bunch of x/1s and x/2s. Free 1/1 fliers trade really well with that kind of army. Even Voice isn't that big of a deal...if you don't have a Snare/Thoughtseize for it on turn 1 on the draw, you can just play a Blossom on turn 1 and then Deathmark it turn 3 with 2 open for countermagic/a Stifle effect for pod. Who cares about one token? You have a Blossom on the table and 4 Cryptics in your deck; it's an insignificant threat.
This is what I would use:
4 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Spell Snare
4 Rune Snag/Mana Leak/Remand
4 (Spot Removal of choice)
4 Cryptic Command
River of Tears was always good in Faeries. I agree with you. I think Darkslick is generally a better card because it's more reliable (black removal needs to be cast on your opponent's turn), but it's a reasonable land to play a couple of.
Mistbind Clique and Scion are at their best when being use to produce 2-for-1s or to really up the clock. Scion is good at countering spot removal (including Abrupt Decay on a Blossom). Mistbind is good at being a Plumeveil in combat against aggro. Both mess up combat math when mana is open. I think it depends on whether people play things like Volcanic Fallout, how hard it is to actually resolve a Mistbind Clique through removal/counters, and how relevant Mistbind is in upkeeps (which can be very good against combo decks like Finkel's storm list). Honestly, the Mistbind/Scion/both/neither question is a bit up in the air. It depends on the metagame. Most of the rest of the deck should be certainties, though...
Playing 3-4 draw spells makes the deck run way more smoothly. It gives it reach. Faeries is one of those decks that always frustrates opponents because the Faeries player "always has" X spell...well, playing draw spells is the best way to "always have it." Whether it's Think Twice or Beleren or Ingenuity or whatever, there should be something along these lines.
EDIT: Or Whispers of the Muse, which I've been thinking about lately (especially in Tron lists)...I like the way thnkr looks at it.
Birthing Pod actually makes a somewhat bad Cryptic bounce target in Pod because it can slam down an infinite combo or bring in the beats (i.e. you might want the counter, cantrip, or tap options more). Probably the best bouncing time is when they play an expensive creature and you counter it + bounce Pod. Otherwise, Pod just comes right down again and tutors that turn, possibly through Mana Leak.
We're currently playing removal splits because, unlike stuff like Path to Exile or Terminate, black removal spells can't deal with everything:
"Smother and Dismember kill everything you care about in the format. Everything else is going to get countered because this is a Faeries deck and that's what it does."
And if you actually wanted to play Spell Snares, you would play Spell Snares. A one-drop does not have to compete with 3-drops and 4-drops for its slot in a tempo deck.
For a card to be ban-worthy, it doesn't necessarily have to be good in its original deck, just too good in general. If the goal is to get it unbanned, then it may be most broken in a non-faeries shell, so those should be tested as well. Maybe it is broken in some other context that wizards have realized but we haven't?
Alternative decks that it *might* push over the top such as Jund or W/B tokens
I think maybe people are losing sight of the forest (figure out if BB is too good) for the trees (tuning and playtesting a single specific matchup.)
Yes, I do think Wizards tests these things. But I also think it is a monumental task. You have only just glimpsed the tip of the iceberg.
Edit:
Also, what about Perilous Research in Faeries? Instant Speed, a cheap source of Card Advantage, and is a way to get rid of Bitterblossom once you don't want it anymore.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Sire, but Mistbind doesn't generate card advantage, and is a huge, unweildy 4 drop
3 snapcaster Mage
4 electrolyze
4 cryptic command
3 spell snare
3 lightning bolt
3 mana leak
2 lightning helix
2 sphinx's revelation
2 path to exile
2 think twice
1 shadow of doubt
2 supreme verdict
1 wrath of god
1 ajani vengeant
1 Gideon Jura
4 scalding tarn
3 arid Mesa
2 hallowed fountain
1 glacial fortress
1 sacred foundry
1 steam vents
2 sulfur falls
3 island
1 mountain
1 plains
3 tectonic edge
4 celestial colinnade
Sb
2 spellskite
2 stony silence
2 sowing salt
2 celestial purge
2 relic of progenitus
1 shadow of doubt
1 surgical extraction
1 disenchant
2 counterflux
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
If I had to take a guess, I'd say it feels closer to 40/60 now, just a little unfavorable. If I play well, I think I can play my way out of it about half the time, but it still feels like an uphill battle with Voice and L-Souls. Post-board its better with Deathmark and Damnation.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Mistbind Clique
Enchantments - 4
4 Bitterblossom
Spells - 16
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
3 Cryptic Command
3 Smother
2 Dismember
3 Think Twice
4 Mutavault
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
4 Island
2 Swamp
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Deathmark
2 Extirpate
3 Spreading Seas
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Dissipate
2 Damnation
1 Cranial Extraction
Notable changes vs. Ver 1
- Snapcasters
- Scion of Oona
- Secluded Glen
- one-of's
+Drowned Catacomb
+More counters
+More removal
+Think Twice
More counterspells and less Snapcaster Mages is playing well, but I wonder if its the wrong call half the time...re-using spells is killer when there's no DRS, but useless if a DRS is active. Scion of Oona is gone, and as a result there's not really enough faeries to justify Secluded Glen anymore, and its harder to push past lingering souls tokens and protect BB from Abrupt Decay. Games that I can stick a Bitterblossom I can usually grind out in the long run. Taking Abrupt Decay with discard seems to be the key.
I want to find room to move the 2x Swords to the mainboard but I don't feel like its safe to cut anything without compromising game-1 vs some part of the field. Maybe a metagame call?
Do you like this list better? Other changes you'd try? Maindeck the swords?
Speculate less. Test more.
Annul is more useful than Steel Sabotage in the sideboard because it answers Blood Moon on turn 1 on the draw, which is relevant against Affinity and can also be very relevant against Splinter Twin (where it counters the namesake Enchantment and Spellskites for one mana, and therefore is a reasonable anti-Moon card to bring in). This is nitpicking, though--it's one narrow answer for another, but it does make a pretty huge difference when Affinity or Twin tries to turn 5/6 of the manabase into mountains.
I like that the manabase has exactly 11 turn one black sources, which is about the magic number for casting a one drop on turn 1 on the draw (i.e. when you need it most).
If the manabase was built more to support it (more fetches, more shocks, more basic Islands, only blue fetches, almost no basic swamps), Shackles might be an option. If you don't need to get 2BB or 1UBB to cast Damnation or animate a Tar Pit because you cut Damnation and run Faerie Conclave instead, that means the black needs would be only 13-14 sources for the sake of just being able to cast one discard/removal spell/bitterblossom each turn...that's all it really needs. So that's something to think about. Even if it's just a board option, Shackles messes decks up, and that does overload the targets for Abrupt Decay to make it more possible for a Blossom or Shackles to stick in the long run against something BGx-colored.
I would definitely put a set of Shadow of Doubt into the 75 of that test deck, because that's exactly the kind of cheap, 2-for-1, instant-speed kick in the balls that belongs in Faeries, and it's particularly good at shafting Birthing Pod.
This list makes me sad that bitterblossom is banned...I'd say thats a really nice looking list
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I'm not sure its right to run the full 4x Cryptics. The 4 drop spot is pretty loaded between the Commands and the Mistbind Cliques. I find if I run the full set without bumping the land up by one, I get 4-drops piling up in hand sometimes. I figure the M-Cliques are required to kill people and close out games, and the rest of the counter package should be able to handle an opponent with one Cryptic missing. Cryptic is a good card, but Mistbind performs the same 'counter' function by tapping the opponent out to prevent them from playing, plus it leaves a big 4/4 body behind to boot.
Annul vs. Steel Sabotage
I'm on the fence, but I don't think it matters in the long run - its a metagame call as sideboards always are. On one hand, steel Sabotage on a loaded up Inkmoth Nexus is game over for Robots, but Annul can also play an ancillary role for the few relevant enchantments in Modern. I'll go ahead and change it. -2 Steel Sabotage (SB), +2 Annul (SB)
Shackles
Sideboards to me have to be tuned for the individual tournament, and nitpicking it is a little beyond the scope of the 'broad strokes' nature of this particular test. Each event has to be prepared for individually. The artifact plan is probably pretty good if your meta calls for it and you can fit an Academy Ruins, Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypt, Crystal Shard, etc in there. Different strokes for different folks. If you want to propose a more researched sideboard for the Gauntlet decks in particular, go for it. I'll happily adopt it.
Shadow of Doubt
I like it. That's some hot and dangerous tech. I'm not sure if I can fit the full playset, but 2 should be enough to get a feel for it.
-1 Dissipate (SB)
-1 Cranial Extraction (SB)
+2 Shadow of Doubt (SB)
or
-3 Think Twice (main)
+3 Shadow of Doubt (main)
Which option is 'better'? Or is it kind of a wash with heavy metagame dependencies?
Speculate less. Test more.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Mistbind Clique
Enchantments - 4
4 Bitterblossom
Spells - 16
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
3 Smother
2 Dismember
3 Think Twice
4 Mutavault
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
4 Island
2 Swamp
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Drowned Catacomb
The only tweak I made was -1 Mistbind and +1 Cryptic, to keep the full set of Command while not overloading our 4 CMC slot. I'm not sold on a sideboard yet, a sentiment that appears to be shared by posters on the thread, so I won't bother with testing games 2 and 3 yet. But I will take this updated list and re-run the 15/15 matchups against Melira Pod. Will report back soon.
The only exclusion that I am not sold on is Snapcaster, but I can appreciate that he might clog up the deck more than he helps.
Between Bitterblossom, Cryptic and Spellstutter, I think we have enough card advantage build into the maindeck. I'd run 3 shadow of doubts over the think twices. I'm going to test this now.
3x Vendilion Clique
3x Mistbind Clique
4x Bitterblossom
3x Cryptic Command
3x Mana Leak
3x Spell Snare
3x Shadow of Doubt
3x Smother
2x Dismember
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Darkslick Sure
5x Island
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x River of Tears
2x Drowned Catacomb
2x Tectonic Edge
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Watery Grave
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Batterskull
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Slay
2x Damnation
2x Steel Sabotage
2x Thoughtseize
Most likely this will delve into another color because UB doesn't really have that much of offer. Green is the most likely candidate then again we need to see some reason this is better than bug midrange.(I see no reasons so far)
Red and white are other options but then we are stepping into other decks that may perform better. To me it seems like deck would almost also need ancestral visions just to be workable.
Tentative list:
4 Mistbind Clique
4 Vendilion Clique
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 snapcaster mage
[21 other spells]
4 Bitterblossom
3 IoK
2 Thoughtseize
3 mana leak
3 spell snare
2 Cryptic Command
2 smother
1 Go for the throat
1 victim of night
1 disfigure
1 doom blade
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Mutavault
3 Secluded Glen
3 river of tears
2 creeping tar pits
1 watery grave
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 Sunken ruins
1 marsh flats
2 island
2 swamp
4 deathmark
3 remand
3 negate
2 into the roil
1 snapcaster mage
2 Other stuff
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Modern:
Tokens
This.
UB Faeries just doesn't seem that strong. What about Jund/Junk Bitterblossom? TokenBlossom? PoxBlossom? There seem like there are many other possible directions to take it. The goal is to test an unbanned bitterblossom, not tune UB faeries.
In my testing, UB Fae remains terrible against Pod and Junk in games 1 and 2. The big problem alone is Voice of Resurgence, although neither the hand disruption of Junk nor the super topdeck mode of Pod makes that matchup any easier. I am sure that UB Fae would remain relevant against other decks in the field, but I sincerely doubt it will put up anything more than a 50/50 win against non-combo decks.
I'd be willing to test WB Tokens with BB if we can agree that UBx Fae is not the deck that is going to break the card. Before that, I want to test out a few different versions of Fae just to see if I can solve the Voice problem. If Voice isn't around to ruin the game, I believe that Fae has a much better shot. So if Fae can reliably deal with Voice, the deck will become a lot better.