I considered cutting my Skullcracks for Gonti's Machinations, as the Skullcracks, while reliable, were kind of boring. Along comes this new card, and I was inclined to test it out... Although Chalice of the Void stinks extra bad, I was interested in what 20 main deck "bolts" would be like.
In playtesting over the last few days, mainly with my son, I have had at least two games where I was in Top Deck mode, and needed to KILL my opponent like Post Haste. Gonti's Machinations is not very good in any sort of "post haste" arrangement.
I considered cutting my Skullcracks for Gonti's Machinations, as the Skullcracks, while reliable, were kind of boring. Along comes this new card, and I was inclined to test it out... Although Chalice of the Void stinks extra bad, I was interested in what 20 main deck "bolts" would be like.
In playtesting over the last few days, mainly with my son, I have had at least two games where I was in Top Deck mode, and needed to KILL my opponent like Post Haste. Gonti's Machinations is not very good in any sort of "post haste" arrangement.
I have gone back to the boring Skullcracks.
Skullcrack is boring but important as an anti-hate card.
The failure of GM in topdeck mode along with how slow it happens to be is what kills the card. Thanks for the honest statements about the card.
I would like ask if nacatl burn still good since fatal push been release? Jund, grixis that mostly would increase with push as one of strong efficient spell that are just replace with their terminate. Assume that their destroying spell still remain same number that we shall not fear too much losing our nacatl?
I would like ask if nacatl burn still good since fatal push been release? Jund, grixis that mostly would increase with push as one of strong efficient spell that are just replace with their terminate. Assume that their destroying spell still remain same number that we shall not fear too much losing our nacatl?
I never liked Nacatl in the first place and only played it for 9 games. Jund and Grixis already had cards that killed Nacatl, and if they play Push it's because they're dropping Terminates to play it. What Push really does is open up access to BUG decks. Nacatl is bad in a removal heavy meta. You can expect in the short term that everyone on black is going to be testing their new toy, which means you probably wouldn't want to give them extra targets for it.
As a result, you can look through the last several pages of this thread and see that just as people said "maindeck atarka's command? better play nacatl too" there are some who are overcorrecting and saying "no more nacatl? better drop atarka's command". I think that maindeck Atarka's Command is the most powerful build you can assemble, because it's an anti-hate card that can become a powerful blowout spell rather than an anti-hate card that becomes player-only lightning strike.
I would like ask if nacatl burn still good since fatal push been release? Jund, grixis that mostly would increase with push as one of strong efficient spell that are just replace with their terminate. Assume that their destroying spell still remain same number that we shall not fear too much losing our nacatl?
I never liked Nacatl in the first place and only played it for 9 games. Jund and Grixis already had cards that killed Nacatl, and if they play Push it's because they're dropping Terminates to play it. What Push really does is open up access to BUG decks. Nacatl is bad in a removal heavy meta. You can expect in the short term that everyone on black is going to be testing their new toy, which means you probably wouldn't want to give them extra targets for it.
As a result, you can look through the last several pages of this thread and see that just as people said "maindeck atarka's command? better play nacatl too" there are some who are overcorrecting and saying "no more nacatl? better drop atarka's command". I think that maindeck Atarka's Command is the most powerful build you can assemble, because it's an anti-hate card that can become a powerful blowout spell rather than an anti-hate card that becomes player-only lightning strike.
Hi ya I agree on nacatl is bad in a heavy removal meta. Burn player could stick to original burn without cat except that explosiveness is much needed in early game. A tournament whereby I would faced much creature distruptive, I would side out nacatls and bring in extra burns to make a likelihood of burn consistent in every turn.
I would stick to naya than boros, with or without nacatl. I am a fans for atarka's command where command +1/+1 sometime can do extra damage, which burns needs. Place a land where favour to searing blaze or to top up another burn spell to the lethal. Anti life gain where burn hell need it anyways.
I like the power of maindeck atarka's command, and I like only having 4 green spells maindeck so that I can play RW in games 2 and 3 if needed. It's tougher for a nacatl burn deck to side out green because they have 8 green cards.
I've been playing 5 colour burn for a while, with a full set of City of Brass and Mana Confluence
I've also got 3 Vapor Snag and of course Eidolon. My build is probably the most reliable way to play Gonti's Machinations.
That being said, I only play 3 GM, and and gonna try using 2 and putting a single Grim Lavamancer back in
I can't imagine a more standard deck would be able to play GM very well, honestly. It can kill in topdeck mode, if I have energy stored ofc (even if the first one isn't on the field), or if I've got at least 3 land and two of them are CoB or MC.
They're all cards that someone said "burn should play this, it's worth testing" and they were quickly found to not be worth playing?
Exquisite Firecraft is a legit card, though, and it might see play in modern burn if being uncounterable were important. It sees play in legacy burn for that reason.
And yeah uncounterable is a thing sometimes just less so in modern.
And I'm not saying don't test new cards but instead actually test cards then get hype about them. I'd play that brand new card Shock over this new worst top deck ever card: Gonti's Machinations
I've been playing around with boros burn a lot mostly because the less harmful mana base was intriguing. I'm switching back to Naya as my primary build of choice now because I ended up playing a minimum of 1x stomping grounds main regardless and at that point it seems less effective to not play Atarka's command.
And yeah uncounterable is a thing sometimes just less so in modern.
And I'm not saying don't test new cards but instead actually test cards then get hype about them. I'd play that brand new card Shock over this new worst top deck ever card: Gonti's Machinations
Firecraft is playable in Modern Mono-R Burn since they're kinda hurting for cards to fill out the deck. There's just no room for it once you add a color and the effect is nice but not necessary, though.
I remember people bringing up Fiery Temper because they didn't realize that it was already legal via Timespiral.
And yeah uncounterable is a thing sometimes just less so in modern.
And I'm not saying don't test new cards but instead actually test cards then get hype about them. I'd play that brand new card Shock over this new worst top deck ever card: Gonti's Machinations
I remember someone explaining how shock was better than nacatl
Turns out he was wrong
But more seriously, the point when talking about a new card and posting lists is to see if someone has a suggestion to improve said list. To maximize the effect of the new card and minimize it's downside. To see if someone knows an obscure card that could fit perfectly with it. That way, they can reach a conclusion on whether they should play it or not in a few weeks instead of a few months.
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I remember someone explaining how shock was better than nacatl
Turns out he was wrong
I recall a perfectly reasonable explanation of how a 3/3 Nacatl that connects for 3 2/3 of the time is equivalent in output to Shock. That's not something that you can actually dispute. I don't recall ever explicitly or seriously stating that Shock is better than Nacatl. What the card is actually inferior to, and that I stated it is inferior to, is the 3 damage burn spell that was dropped from the deck to play Wild Nacatl. I also do not recall any genuine effort by any person to quantify the damage output of Wild Nacatl, and my good faith estimation of the card showed that it was inferior to an actual Burn spell in expected damage output. Had someone done genuine testing and provided just a histogram of the damage output of Wild Nacatl as a function of the turn it was played and had that result been significantly better than 3 damage, I would have changed my tune. It never happened. Instead, I was belittled for providing a good faith estimator of it, and continue to be insulted for it by you and someone else last wee. It has been several months if not a year after it happened which means there is no real purpose in doing so.
Instead, all I recall is "We play green now. We must play Nacatl. Is best green creature ever." In fact, I recall comments that are pretty much identical to what's being said about Gonti's Machinations, which amount to "I just played like 5 games and it was magical christmasland therefore Nacatl is the best thing ever". I would, however, prefer to play Shock over Wild Nacatl. I'd also prefer Spark Elemental, Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, and even Vexing Devil if only because I don't have to grab green to play it. What I actually play instead of Wild Nacatl is some combination of Lightning Helix, Skullcrack, Searing Blaze, and Grim Lavamancer. So, let's say 1 Helix, 0.75 Skullcrack, 1.5 Searing Blaze, 0.75 Grim Lavamancer is what I play instead.
The fact that we're now seeing players shifting back to RW with DRev kind of shows that I was right about Wild Nacatl and that the fad is fading.
But more seriously, the point when talking about a new card and posting lists is to see if someone has a suggestion to improve said list. To maximize the effect of the new card and minimize it's downside. To see if someone knows an obscure card that could fit perfectly with it. That way, they can reach a conclusion on whether they should play it or not in a few weeks instead of a few months.
The point of testing a card is to provide genuine evaluation of the card and how it performs within a deck. We very rarely see that happen. What we actually see is someone come along and say "card X is worth testing", sometimes with a deck list and sometimes without. After that, we either see nothing or we see something like what we've seen for Gonti's Machinations, which is completely useless statements like "opponent didn't know how to deal with it" and "if you have two of them, it's sooo good!" Things like that amount to "I assert that it is good". There's never any discussion of it's strengths, weaknesses, or genuine accounts of when it was good and when it was bad.
This is the kind of testing that is appropriate for genuinely analyzing a card and it's what I'm currently doing for two cards in Bushwhacker Zoo. I'm tracking average power on board, damage through 2 turns, and damage through 3 turns. The result will be actual statistics to convey the aggregate effect of having those cards in the deck. I want to get to 100 games before I post it, and I'm only at 60.
in my experience Rain of gore hasn't been great. I've had smarter players see it coming so they are prepared for it. Much less impressive than I was hoping.
In playtesting over the last few days, mainly with my son, I have had at least two games where I was in Top Deck mode, and needed to KILL my opponent like Post Haste. Gonti's Machinations is not very good in any sort of "post haste" arrangement.
I have gone back to the boring Skullcracks.
Skullcrack is boring but important as an anti-hate card.
The failure of GM in topdeck mode along with how slow it happens to be is what kills the card. Thanks for the honest statements about the card.
I never liked Nacatl in the first place and only played it for 9 games. Jund and Grixis already had cards that killed Nacatl, and if they play Push it's because they're dropping Terminates to play it. What Push really does is open up access to BUG decks. Nacatl is bad in a removal heavy meta. You can expect in the short term that everyone on black is going to be testing their new toy, which means you probably wouldn't want to give them extra targets for it.
As a result, you can look through the last several pages of this thread and see that just as people said "maindeck atarka's command? better play nacatl too" there are some who are overcorrecting and saying "no more nacatl? better drop atarka's command". I think that maindeck Atarka's Command is the most powerful build you can assemble, because it's an anti-hate card that can become a powerful blowout spell rather than an anti-hate card that becomes player-only lightning strike.
Hi ya I agree on nacatl is bad in a heavy removal meta. Burn player could stick to original burn without cat except that explosiveness is much needed in early game. A tournament whereby I would faced much creature distruptive, I would side out nacatls and bring in extra burns to make a likelihood of burn consistent in every turn.
I would stick to naya than boros, with or without nacatl. I am a fans for atarka's command where command +1/+1 sometime can do extra damage, which burns needs. Place a land where favour to searing blaze or to top up another burn spell to the lethal. Anti life gain where burn hell need it anyways.
I've also got 3 Vapor Snag and of course Eidolon. My build is probably the most reliable way to play Gonti's Machinations.
That being said, I only play 3 GM, and and gonna try using 2 and putting a single Grim Lavamancer back in
I can't imagine a more standard deck would be able to play GM very well, honestly. It can kill in topdeck mode, if I have energy stored ofc (even if the first one isn't on the field), or if I've got at least 3 land and two of them are CoB or MC.
Exquisite Firecraft
Abbot of Keral Keep
Stormchaser Mage
Fiery Temper
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Smuggler's Copter
Gonti's Machinations
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
Frontier?
They're all cards that someone said "burn should play this, it's worth testing" and they were quickly found to not be worth playing?
Exquisite Firecraft is a legit card, though, and it might see play in modern burn if being uncounterable were important. It sees play in legacy burn for that reason.
And yeah uncounterable is a thing sometimes just less so in modern.
And I'm not saying don't test new cards but instead actually test cards then get hype about them. I'd play that brand new card Shock over this new worst top deck ever card: Gonti's Machinations
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
4 monastery swiftspear
4 eidolon of the great revel
1 grim lavamancer
4 lava spike
4 rift bolt
4 lightning bolt
1 shard volley
4 atarka's command
4 boro's charm
4 searing blaze
2 lightning helix
3 arid mesa
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothill
2 stomping ground
2 sacred foundry
2 inspiring vantage
3 mountain
3 deflecting palm
3 path to exile
4 destructive revelry
2 molten rain
2 skullcrack
1 grim lavamancer
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
Firecraft is playable in Modern Mono-R Burn since they're kinda hurting for cards to fill out the deck. There's just no room for it once you add a color and the effect is nice but not necessary, though.
I remember people bringing up Fiery Temper because they didn't realize that it was already legal via Timespiral.
Turns out he was wrong
But more seriously, the point when talking about a new card and posting lists is to see if someone has a suggestion to improve said list. To maximize the effect of the new card and minimize it's downside. To see if someone knows an obscure card that could fit perfectly with it. That way, they can reach a conclusion on whether they should play it or not in a few weeks instead of a few months.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
note thought that wear//tear is not as good as destructive revelry.
destructive revelry Is huge in the sideboard. it essentially combines smash to smithereens and wear//tear, which frees up space for a more diverse sideboard.
but, remember Jund variants will not have access to Boros Charm.
Wish we had better options in mardu burn.
4 wooded foothills
4 bloodstained mire
4 sacred foundry
4 blood crypt
3 mountain
1 dragonskull summit
Creatures
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Boros Charm
3 Searing Blaze
3 Skullcrack
2 Lightning Helix
2 Rift Bolt
2 Path to Exile
2 Wear // Tear
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Skullcrack
2 Rain of Gore
2 Deflecting Palm
I recall a perfectly reasonable explanation of how a 3/3 Nacatl that connects for 3 2/3 of the time is equivalent in output to Shock. That's not something that you can actually dispute. I don't recall ever explicitly or seriously stating that Shock is better than Nacatl. What the card is actually inferior to, and that I stated it is inferior to, is the 3 damage burn spell that was dropped from the deck to play Wild Nacatl. I also do not recall any genuine effort by any person to quantify the damage output of Wild Nacatl, and my good faith estimation of the card showed that it was inferior to an actual Burn spell in expected damage output. Had someone done genuine testing and provided just a histogram of the damage output of Wild Nacatl as a function of the turn it was played and had that result been significantly better than 3 damage, I would have changed my tune. It never happened. Instead, I was belittled for providing a good faith estimator of it, and continue to be insulted for it by you and someone else last wee. It has been several months if not a year after it happened which means there is no real purpose in doing so.
Instead, all I recall is "We play green now. We must play Nacatl. Is best green creature ever." In fact, I recall comments that are pretty much identical to what's being said about Gonti's Machinations, which amount to "I just played like 5 games and it was magical christmasland therefore Nacatl is the best thing ever". I would, however, prefer to play Shock over Wild Nacatl. I'd also prefer Spark Elemental, Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, and even Vexing Devil if only because I don't have to grab green to play it. What I actually play instead of Wild Nacatl is some combination of Lightning Helix, Skullcrack, Searing Blaze, and Grim Lavamancer. So, let's say 1 Helix, 0.75 Skullcrack, 1.5 Searing Blaze, 0.75 Grim Lavamancer is what I play instead.
The fact that we're now seeing players shifting back to RW with DRev kind of shows that I was right about Wild Nacatl and that the fad is fading.
The point of testing a card is to provide genuine evaluation of the card and how it performs within a deck. We very rarely see that happen. What we actually see is someone come along and say "card X is worth testing", sometimes with a deck list and sometimes without. After that, we either see nothing or we see something like what we've seen for Gonti's Machinations, which is completely useless statements like "opponent didn't know how to deal with it" and "if you have two of them, it's sooo good!" Things like that amount to "I assert that it is good". There's never any discussion of it's strengths, weaknesses, or genuine accounts of when it was good and when it was bad.
This is the kind of testing that is appropriate for genuinely analyzing a card and it's what I'm currently doing for two cards in Bushwhacker Zoo. I'm tracking average power on board, damage through 2 turns, and damage through 3 turns. The result will be actual statistics to convey the aggregate effect of having those cards in the deck. I want to get to 100 games before I post it, and I'm only at 60.
How does rain of gore usually work for you? I found them better in theory than practice, but then again my meta doesn't have too much life gain.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.