I play every creature in the 75 against Abzan, which lets us go wide against Liliana and their infinite removal. We really want two creatures in play on turn three in spite of Path, Abrupt Decay, and Thoughtseize. The Hooting Mandrils come in then and any time Nourishing Shoal comes in. I like PTPaul's list using the four flex slots (Lightning Bolt) on creatures, even if I can't play Tarmogoyf there right now. This gives us an edge in game one of discard and heavy-spot removal decks.
If not goyf, what creatures are you running? More swiftspears or something else? Is the reason to not use goyf cost or it's poor interaction with our delve cards?
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Drinkard: I think you are right about Lotus Bloom (drawing a brick later in the game), Could argue Leyline of Sanctity but it does suffer from the same (too late unless on opening hand). Also have to agree about overwhelming Jund / Junk / Abzan with creatures as a response to Liliana's ability. This cost me a match in the GPT this weekend.
Vismal, I would look into:
Lightning Berserker: tell me if this doesn't look awesome? Dash, pump, hit... back to hand for safety.
More Monastery Swiftspear: upped the numbers on her and she is the bomb, can't argue with hasty one mana. Loam Lion and Kird Ape: these complement our lands well. Plated Geopede: Landfall, effectively a 5/5 when fetching. Lotus Cobra: one mana of any color on landfall? sounds good to me... might be too slow, but who knows. Kiln Fiend: we may be running too little spells for this to count but he is beastly.
Thanks for the suggestions. Here are my thoughts. Lightning Berserker will probably never hit for more than 2. I typically want to win turn 3 or 4 with 3 lands in play. More often than not, only 2 of those lands have red. I like to think all our dudes should be able to swing for lethal once we cast become immense and temur battle rage on them. A fully pumped nacatyl swings 18, so does swiftspear due to prowess. Lynx and mandrill will go for 20, and the sky's the limit on death's shadow. I fear that berserker doesn't compete.
Adding more Monastery swiftspear seems fine. The monkey and the lion also crossed my mind. They might require a mutagenic growth in addition to the combo to hit for lethal depending on the opponents life. This fact leads me to believe swiftspear might just be better. They seem better suited for an agro style win rather than a combo win. Perhaps being able to do both might be a key to success though. Plated Geopede seems okay as well. Very similar to the lynx but 2 cmc. Lotus cobra does seem a bit slow to me as well. I like the idea of at least a couple 2 cmc dudes to combat chalice. Maybe not 4 since we will have some kind of artifact hate in the board and with our sick amount of draw spells, our odds of seeing them are decent.
Kiln Fiend is my favorite of the suggestions. He'll be swinging big even without become immense. Cast a probe and a rage and he's 14 damage. Plus you only need two mana out for that move. Make that probe a mutagenic growth and your swinging 18 with only 2 mana. I think I like him the best of all.
I've been running two crimson wisps and two postmortem lunge in the lightning bolt flex spots. Lunge seems more like a sideboard card to decks heavy in discard, abrupt decay, and terminate. Undying evil is something worth thinking about in that spot as well. It really sucks against Path to exile followed by snapcaster mage targeting path the next turn. That little exchange knocks the wind right out of our sails. Faith's Shield seems like an okay answer or apostle's blessing. Wisp seems good in theory but hasn't impressed me much in practice. I'm going to try various combinations of fiends and swiftspears for the time being. I feel like tarmogoyf will ultimately need tested as well. I know no one wants to add 800 bucks to the cost of the deck but if we want to be competitive, one of the best creatures in the format, in a color we are already running, is at least worth a test even with it's poor interaction with our delve cards.
So those are my thoughts, what's everyone else thinking?
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Coming in for my two cents. Had a 3 hour train ride with Wi-Fi so I played a lot yesterday with crimson wisps and postmortem lunge. Crimson wisps is almost always R - Draw a card. There are times where I need it and it's not there and times I have it and don't need it. I think it's coming out for the time being. Postmortem lunge is awesome! Especially with the resurgence of this new delver deck. From playing the tournament practice queues, I'm noticing a large shift towards control decks right now. I know that's a bad way to gauge the meta but that's what I've been playing a lot lately. With that being said, vismal you're correct. I think it's a sideboard card. I like it a lot because it doesn't stop us from being aggressive. I think it's a great card to put in if you know you're going to be facing some removal.
I also think everything you said with respect to viekoslavia suggestions are correct. Not to shoot any ideas down; because obviously this list isn't optimized, but I agree with what you said.
Kiln Fiend has been on the back of my mind for a long, long time. I really never ever tested him because that 2 CMC is a huge investment when you want a turn 3 kill. But that thing has some spunk to it. Maybe I'll pick up a playset, I just don't like the idea of having to hold back a probe or bauble for him if I don't have any other spells in hand - but I guess that's a very isolated case that may not occur often.
I really wish I had the ability to test goyf. It looks like people are only running 5 delve cards right now (4BI 1Hooting), I don't think it would ruin it too much. It would just need to be something you play around. He's what we need as a backup plan. After all the fetches been cracked for lynx, all the spells for swiftspear, we have nactal(mehhhh turn 4 and on), and DS. I would like to have more than 1 threat in my deck who will secure me the win. How much better he would be than Hooting, I don't know and that's really what I want to test extensively.
Now like I said before I won't be playing much in the next couple weeks but there are cards I would like to try out. Would like some feedback if possible. Fling - It's just another Temur Battle Rage. Maybe as a 1 or 2 of tops. It also helps when they have a better board state and you need that last poke of damage. Vines of Vastwood - This has been mentioned before but I think I might want to mainboard a couple of these as well. Lets us keep our biggest critter alive and if it's collecting dust in your hand, you can kicker on it. But now we're coming into a more consistent turn 4 win territory as you'd want to keep up mana for it. Then by turn 4, some other decks might have more than 1 removal spell they can cast. Just something I would like to test more.
RE: Tarmogoyf
As stated in a previous post, I've tried a lot of 2-cc creatures: Plated Geopede, Loxodon Peacekeeper, Jotun Grunt, Sheltering Ancient,Putrid Leech, and to some extent, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, and Hooting Mandrills. I didn't like having 2-drops. If I owned Tarmogoyf, I would certainly test him. I will probably buy him when MM2015 comes out, and I may play some number in here, but I don't think I will.
RE: Thoughtseize
I don't like it maindeck. There are a select few matchups, only on the play, that we want it.
RE: Other concerns
People are getting the wrong idea with this deck and possibly deckbuilding in general. This is just a stupid aggro combo deck, and when you try and make it flexible, you will sacrifice power and consistency. Yes, Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, and other cards will randomly ruin a game here and there, but this is just a linear deck out to get me free wins. It's dang good at it until you warp the list as an overreaction to cards that are seldom a problem.
RE: Tarmogoyf
As stated in a previous post, I've tried a lot of 2-cc creatures: Plated Geopede, Loxodon Peacekeeper, Jotun Grunt, Sheltering Ancient,Putrid Leech, and to some extent, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, and Hooting Mandrills. I didn't like having 2-drops. If I owned Tarmogoyf, I would certainly test him. I will probably buy him when MM2015 comes out, and I may play some number in here, but I don't think I will.
I agree about not having 2-drops but there are a lot of times where there is Lynx #2 siting in my hand and a BI, Hooting, Temur, and a couple lands or some other combination of stuff that can't be played right away. If you can get the 2 CMC out on turn 2 I feel it needs to help do some insane damage turn 3 / guarantee a win turn 4. I don't know if Tarmogoyf would be perfect but turn 2 you ideally want DS on the board but more times than not you're just setting board state up for the kill. It's why I do have some faith in Klin but you're making me second guess Tarmo. I would only evaluate Tarmo on the basis of being better or worse than Hooting. I think the majority of us agree on him over the other delve dudes. I think he would help us play the mid-game but like you said, it's not where we want to be.
RE: Thoughtseize
I don't like it maindeck. There are a select few matchups, only on the play, that we want it.
This could not be more correct. I remember being sold on the idea of discard in the main but we really don't want to interact. We're too fast for that.
RE: Other concerns
People are getting the wrong idea with this deck and possibly deckbuilding in general. This is just a stupid aggro combo deck, and when you try and make it flexible, you will sacrifice power and consistency. Yes, Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, and other cards will randomly ruin a game here and there, but this is just a linear deck out to get me free wins. It's dang good at it until you warp the list as an overreaction to cards that are seldom a problem.
I really don't think any of the cards you mentioned are extremely hatey against us, provided you see them coming. With Blood Moon just fetch a basic and if you have a DS, make sure you can get him out before it's too late. Often times it's scouted with probe anyway. After our creatures are on the board you only need green and red. Chalice kinda sucks but if you have something on the board, it's not much of an issue. I haven't had anyone use Ensaring bridge against me but that really only turns off Death Shadow. We don't really dump our hand like Affinity and if my opponent wants to waste turn 3 on that card, I'm more than happy to play through it.
I'm liking Kiln Fiend as the only 2 cmc creature. It's only a 2 of for now. It can lead to turn 3 kills in a number of ways. One of the few turn 3 kills that doesn't require become immense. It's also inherently resistant to blood moon. Now that the 2 man queues are paying out DTK packs I can do some proper testing. I couldn't justify paying 2 tix for the chance to win 1 pack worth < 2 tix. Hopefully I'll also have time to play some dailies as well. Here's my list as it stands:
With the added creatures in the main deck I took two mandrills out of board to put the lunges in their place. I feel like 6 cards to feed nourishing shoals is probably enough. Maybe not though. We'll see.
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Kiln Fiend with mutagenic growth is just stupid! I ran as a 4 of yesterday with a 2 of Swiftspear. I agree 4 is too much but I just wanted to play it in as many games as possible. Cool card for sure but I need to keep testing to figure out if it's gimicky or solid enough to stay. Also big fan of your SB but I definitely would want more delve green in my 75.
Updating the Modern Nexus top decks page with some Japanese events from the weekend and stumbled across this. It's the first Suicide Shadow deck I have seen in paper Modern, which is an interesting evolution in itself. Deck got 3rd at a 32 player event.
Updating the Modern Nexus top decks page with some Japanese events from the weekend and stumbled across this. It's the first Suicide Shadow deck I have seen in paper Modern, which is an interesting evolution in itself. Deck got 3rd at a 32 player event.
Just realized I'd been asked about Stomping Ground.
I'm just a poor netdecker. I thought the only change to the manabase was playing Arid Mesa instead of Marsh Flats. Stomping Ground and Overgrown Tomb are my least favorite shocks to get. I don't like having Overgrown Tomb because I tend to have problems needing Green and Black on the same turn turn 2 (when I can finally play Death's Shadow). My favorite line is to get Temple Garden then Blood Crypt.
Got my first turn 2 win today. 3 cycle effects and a fetchland into Death's Shadow turn 1, then fetch, Monastery Swiftspear, Become Immense, Mutagenic Growth turn 2.
I don't side in Nourishing Shoal in any match but Burn. Its too diluting to play against Bogles and Affinity because when linear decks face each other, I feel the best idea is to be the faster, more consistent linear deck. You kind of depend on Temur Battle Rage there.
A 3-1 in the morning's daily, beating Twin 2-0, Esper Control 2-1, Butakov Gifts 2-1, and losing 0-2 to Summer Titan/Amulet Bloom/Primeval Vigor whatever it's called. I still hate that deck. I just sided in 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Lightning Bolt, and it felt like a good change. I never saw Amulet of Vigor, so I'm glad I didn't bring in Ancient Grudge. The turn after I thoughtseized his Azusa, he topdecked and played Summer Bloom. Good game.
EDIT: It is worth noting that two other players, including _matsugan, were in round 4 of the daily with super crazy zoo. They both went 2-2. I don't say this to brag on myself, but it seems like the deck may be picking up in popularity as far as event entry but not keeping up with packs per entry. Time will tell. It does have some nuances that aren't intuitive.
So out of curiosity, what are everyone's thoughts on Goblin Guide over Steppe Lynx, Lynx is more explosive for a turn, but I have been having problems triggering it. I tried going up to 18 lands and it still wasnt consistent enough. Also having hasty guys so you can combo the same turn you play them is super helpful. What wound up happening was that I consistently was doing 4 damage with either lynx or GG turn two (GG turn 1 and turn 2)but goblin guide was better if not in the opening hand. So mostly playing a landfall cat in a deck that doesnt want to have that many lands was giving me problems.
So out of curiosity, what are everyone's thoughts on Goblin Guide over Steppe Lynx, Lynx is more explosive for a turn, but I have been having problems triggering it. I tried going up to 18 lands and it still wasnt consistent enough. Also having hasty guys so you can combo the same turn you play them is super helpful. What wound up happening was that I consistently was doing 4 damage with either lynx or GG turn two (GG turn 1 and turn 2)but goblin guide was better if not in the opening hand. So mostly playing a landfall cat in a deck that doesnt want to have that many lands was giving me problems.
This is certainly worth a test. It would also depend on the number of monastery swiftspear you run. I don't think we want to run 4 goblin guide and 4 taylor swiftspears. Steppe lynx is probably better when you don't have become immense. It can hit 12 trample damage with temur battle rage and mutagenic growth where as guide is only hitting for 8. I've also set up turn 3 Steppe lynx by dropping a fetch land turn 2 and not cracking it. Drop another turn 3 and you have a 6/7 Lynx that can be swinging for 12-16 without become immense. Maybe a 2/2 split with guide? I get what you're saying about how a later game guide can just come out and win. More things to test...
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I am currently running 3 goblin guide and 4 swiftspear (i used to run the 3 lynx instead). and in your scenario with gg you should have also hit for 2 the first turn cause it has haste, so it would be 10 vs 12 in a lot of cases. Also goblin guide is easier to protect cause 1 mutagenic growth puts him out of bolt range, but lynx just dies to it.
Also unless I missed it, what is the verdict on boros charm, either in the main or the board? It has a really similiar function to battle rage, but you give up trample for a few extra modes such as the 4 to the face, or making your creatures indestructible to wrath. I've been testing the deck locally along with a few other people and they seem to like a 2-2 split between the two (I'm currently running 3-1, with 1 boros charm) and on a similiar note, ive been running an singleton tainted strike because it works with both combo pieces fairly well and we have a few soul sister decks running around near me.
I am currently running 3 goblin guide and 4 swiftspear (i used to run the 3 lynx instead). and in your scenario with gg you should have also hit for 2 the first turn cause it has haste, so it would be 10 vs 12 in a lot of cases. Also goblin guide is easier to protect cause 1 mutagenic growth puts him out of bolt range, but lynx just dies to it.
Also unless I missed it, what is the verdict on boros charm, either in the main or the board? It has a really similiar function to battle rage, but you give up trample for a few extra modes such as the 4 to the face, or making your creatures indestructible to wrath. I've been testing the deck locally along with a few other people and they seem to like a 2-2 split between the two (I'm currently running 3-1, with 1 boros charm) and on a similiar note, ive been running an singleton tainted strike because it works with both combo pieces fairly well and we have a few soul sister decks running around near me.
I don't know that boros charm was discussed. While the additional modes make it very versatile, I'd say 9 times out of 10 when I'm swinging for the win, the trample is relevant. Without trample, a single spirit token can soak up half the damage. I do like playing charm in response to a wrath though. Also, 4 to the face might just win the game. Still, I don't want to give up any temur battle rages. I might save tainted strike for the sideboard unless your meta has lots of life gain decks, like yours does.
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There are probably a statistically significant number of games where I would be in a winning position if I would just draw a haste creature, but still I can't even bring myself to play more than 2 Monastery Swiftspear because of how underwhelming it can be. So Goblin Guide, Zurgo Bellstriker, and even Spark Elemental and Hellspark Elemental are interesting cards in tandem with Become Immense and Temur Battle Rage, but I don't know if this particular deck is where to put them.
This deck builds resources on a lot of platforms that typically aren't interacted with by a lot of decks: the graveyard and the life total. Interactions within the cards in this deck build resources in those two pools at the same time, and the creatures used to attack feed off those synergies. Steppe Lynx feels like an easy exclusion when you first start testing the deck, and some say that they get stuck with a useless cat from time to time. Yes, that happens, but I also win games sometimes with 2-3 lands in my hand that I can't play because of cantrips. Because of players' inexperience AGAINST this deck, Steppe Lynx often gets maximum damage in and then gets removed in events. I'll swing for 4, have no other lands to play, and then the opponent bolts, paths, or decays Lynx. Then the coast is clear for Nacatl, Death's Shadow, whatever else.
Could all of this happen with Goblin Guide? Yes, but you're giving your opponent a Dark Confidant when they are hoping to build mana resources and draw answers, and Guide doesn't feed off the same resource pools that Lynx and Death's Shadow do.
As far as interactions go, when I watch replays, I see people activate Mishra's Bauble at the wrong times and uselessly cantrip when it doesn't actually affect what they're going to do that turn. If I have a Gitaxian Probe, I don't just fire it off turn one unless I have mulled to 5 without getting a creature or have a Monastery Swiftspear to interact with it. If I am going to miss a land drop unless I cantrip into a land, then I will cycle or play Probe. Here are some keys to activating Bauble:
1) If the opponent has burn-type removal, then activate it during your turn. This may draw you into a Mutagenic Growth on their upkeep.
2) If the opponent has discard and no fetchland, then activate it during your opponent's upkeep to see what they are going to draw. That way, the card you cantrip can't be removed with the Thoughtseize and Inquisition they want to play.
3) If the opponent has discard and a fetchland, activate it at the end of their turn.
4) If you have a cantrip and a fetchland, activate it before the fetchland to see if you want to cycle before or after the fetch.
Cycle Street Wraiths before Gitaxian Probes in case you draw into a Monastery Swiftspear. It's embarrassing to do it the other way around.
By waiting to cycle Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe, your opponent's best removal (discard) is not available to them. So many times my opponent turn 1 and turn 2 Thoughtseizes me just to see a couple of Street Wraiths. If I had cycled them turn one just because I could, then I would lose something important like Death's Shadow or Wild Nacatl.
I'm going to go ahead and test a more creature heavy build. I've ditched the bolts as we all kind of agree that's the flex spot. I've also ditched the lynx for now just to see how the deck plays without them. I am also really liking Kiln fiend as a 2 of. It isn't hampered by blood moon or chalice of the void set to 1. It leads to a number of turn 3 kills. Here's my 75
Having 8 haste dudes makes the deck somewhat more resistant to removal. It's easy for an opponent to path or decay a haste dude to make room for the heavy hitters. As far as the sideboard goes, I usually side in 4 thoughtseize against pure combo (amulet, twin, ad nauseam, etc). 4 nourishing shoal and 1 hooting mandrills for burn. I don't really side in the shoals for anything else. I feel like we just race other agro decks. I've had pretty good luck against zoo, fish, and affinity. Control can be a fairly difficult match. I usually side in both pact of negation and usually some number of thoughtseize. Postmortem lunge has been underwhelming. It's decent against discard or decks that pack heavy removal but unless you are at low life and can target a death's shadow and have temur battle rage and enough mana for all those, it usually isn't enough. I almost never side in ancient grudge. I'm wondering if these would be better as faith's shield. I feel like we just race affinity and tron. Am I missing something that I want these for?
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I would run at least some artifact removal just to get rid of Spellskite, which is probably one of the most annoying cards against this deck. Normally I rarely have been using the flashback on it so I just started running Destructive Revelry instead
So, just went 2-2. Hooting Mandrills over Monastery Swiftspear was relevant and cost me 2 games, so I'm going back to 3 Swiftspear main. I feel like Kiln Fiend is a sideboard card but where is he best? maybe he can help in the Affinity matchup and versus Spellskite, as he pumps anyway.
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Vismal, I would look into:
Lightning Berserker: tell me if this doesn't look awesome? Dash, pump, hit... back to hand for safety.
More Monastery Swiftspear: upped the numbers on her and she is the bomb, can't argue with hasty one mana.
Loam Lion and Kird Ape: these complement our lands well.
Plated Geopede: Landfall, effectively a 5/5 when fetching.
Lotus Cobra: one mana of any color on landfall? sounds good to me... might be too slow, but who knows.
Kiln Fiend: we may be running too little spells for this to count but he is beastly.
Reasoning behind 2CMC creatures above: Chalice of the Void
Thoughts?
EDIT: removed Mardu Scout as a suggestion... two red is too much.
Adding more Monastery swiftspear seems fine. The monkey and the lion also crossed my mind. They might require a mutagenic growth in addition to the combo to hit for lethal depending on the opponents life. This fact leads me to believe swiftspear might just be better. They seem better suited for an agro style win rather than a combo win. Perhaps being able to do both might be a key to success though. Plated Geopede seems okay as well. Very similar to the lynx but 2 cmc. Lotus cobra does seem a bit slow to me as well. I like the idea of at least a couple 2 cmc dudes to combat chalice. Maybe not 4 since we will have some kind of artifact hate in the board and with our sick amount of draw spells, our odds of seeing them are decent.
Kiln Fiend is my favorite of the suggestions. He'll be swinging big even without become immense. Cast a probe and a rage and he's 14 damage. Plus you only need two mana out for that move. Make that probe a mutagenic growth and your swinging 18 with only 2 mana. I think I like him the best of all.
I've been running two crimson wisps and two postmortem lunge in the lightning bolt flex spots. Lunge seems more like a sideboard card to decks heavy in discard, abrupt decay, and terminate. Undying evil is something worth thinking about in that spot as well. It really sucks against Path to exile followed by snapcaster mage targeting path the next turn. That little exchange knocks the wind right out of our sails. Faith's Shield seems like an okay answer or apostle's blessing. Wisp seems good in theory but hasn't impressed me much in practice. I'm going to try various combinations of fiends and swiftspears for the time being. I feel like tarmogoyf will ultimately need tested as well. I know no one wants to add 800 bucks to the cost of the deck but if we want to be competitive, one of the best creatures in the format, in a color we are already running, is at least worth a test even with it's poor interaction with our delve cards.
So those are my thoughts, what's everyone else thinking?
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I also think everything you said with respect to viekoslavia suggestions are correct. Not to shoot any ideas down; because obviously this list isn't optimized, but I agree with what you said.
Kiln Fiend has been on the back of my mind for a long, long time. I really never ever tested him because that 2 CMC is a huge investment when you want a turn 3 kill. But that thing has some spunk to it. Maybe I'll pick up a playset, I just don't like the idea of having to hold back a probe or bauble for him if I don't have any other spells in hand - but I guess that's a very isolated case that may not occur often.
I really wish I had the ability to test goyf. It looks like people are only running 5 delve cards right now (4BI 1Hooting), I don't think it would ruin it too much. It would just need to be something you play around. He's what we need as a backup plan. After all the fetches been cracked for lynx, all the spells for swiftspear, we have nactal(mehhhh turn 4 and on), and DS. I would like to have more than 1 threat in my deck who will secure me the win. How much better he would be than Hooting, I don't know and that's really what I want to test extensively.
Now like I said before I won't be playing much in the next couple weeks but there are cards I would like to try out. Would like some feedback if possible.
Fling - It's just another Temur Battle Rage. Maybe as a 1 or 2 of tops. It also helps when they have a better board state and you need that last poke of damage.
Vines of Vastwood - This has been mentioned before but I think I might want to mainboard a couple of these as well. Lets us keep our biggest critter alive and if it's collecting dust in your hand, you can kicker on it. But now we're coming into a more consistent turn 4 win territory as you'd want to keep up mana for it. Then by turn 4, some other decks might have more than 1 removal spell they can cast. Just something I would like to test more.
I guess they did post.
RE: Tarmogoyf
As stated in a previous post, I've tried a lot of 2-cc creatures: Plated Geopede, Loxodon Peacekeeper, Jotun Grunt, Sheltering Ancient,Putrid Leech, and to some extent, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, and Hooting Mandrills. I didn't like having 2-drops. If I owned Tarmogoyf, I would certainly test him. I will probably buy him when MM2015 comes out, and I may play some number in here, but I don't think I will.
RE: Thoughtseize
I don't like it maindeck. There are a select few matchups, only on the play, that we want it.
RE: Other concerns
People are getting the wrong idea with this deck and possibly deckbuilding in general. This is just a stupid aggro combo deck, and when you try and make it flexible, you will sacrifice power and consistency. Yes, Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, and other cards will randomly ruin a game here and there, but this is just a linear deck out to get me free wins. It's dang good at it until you warp the list as an overreaction to cards that are seldom a problem.
I agree about not having 2-drops but there are a lot of times where there is Lynx #2 siting in my hand and a BI, Hooting, Temur, and a couple lands or some other combination of stuff that can't be played right away. If you can get the 2 CMC out on turn 2 I feel it needs to help do some insane damage turn 3 / guarantee a win turn 4. I don't know if Tarmogoyf would be perfect but turn 2 you ideally want DS on the board but more times than not you're just setting board state up for the kill. It's why I do have some faith in Klin but you're making me second guess Tarmo. I would only evaluate Tarmo on the basis of being better or worse than Hooting. I think the majority of us agree on him over the other delve dudes. I think he would help us play the mid-game but like you said, it's not where we want to be.
This could not be more correct. I remember being sold on the idea of discard in the main but we really don't want to interact. We're too fast for that.
I really don't think any of the cards you mentioned are extremely hatey against us, provided you see them coming. With Blood Moon just fetch a basic and if you have a DS, make sure you can get him out before it's too late. Often times it's scouted with probe anyway. After our creatures are on the board you only need green and red. Chalice kinda sucks but if you have something on the board, it's not much of an issue. I haven't had anyone use Ensaring bridge against me but that really only turns off Death Shadow. We don't really dump our hand like Affinity and if my opponent wants to waste turn 3 on that card, I'm more than happy to play through it.
4 steppe lynx
4 wild nacatl
4 monastery swiftspear
4 death's shadow
2 kiln fiend
1 hooting mandrills
Card Draw 12
4 street wraith
4 gitaxian probe
4 mishra's bauble
Pump 12
4 become immense
4 mutagenic growth
4 temur battle rage
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
1 blood crypt
1 sacred foundry
1 temple garden
1 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
4 nourishing shoal
4 thoughtseize
2 pact of negation
2 postmortem lunge
2 ancient grudge
1 hooting mandrills
With the added creatures in the main deck I took two mandrills out of board to put the lunges in their place. I feel like 6 cards to feed nourishing shoals is probably enough. Maybe not though. We'll see.
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D079785
Very interesting! Looks very similar to Drinkard's 4-0 list. Glad to see it's still posting results
I'm just a poor netdecker. I thought the only change to the manabase was playing Arid Mesa instead of Marsh Flats. Stomping Ground and Overgrown Tomb are my least favorite shocks to get. I don't like having Overgrown Tomb because I tend to have problems needing Green and Black on the same turn turn 2 (when I can finally play Death's Shadow). My favorite line is to get Temple Garden then Blood Crypt.
Got my first turn 2 win today. 3 cycle effects and a fetchland into Death's Shadow turn 1, then fetch, Monastery Swiftspear, Become Immense, Mutagenic Growth turn 2.
A 3-1 in the morning's daily, beating Twin 2-0, Esper Control 2-1, Butakov Gifts 2-1, and losing 0-2 to Summer Titan/Amulet Bloom/Primeval Vigor whatever it's called. I still hate that deck. I just sided in 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Lightning Bolt, and it felt like a good change. I never saw Amulet of Vigor, so I'm glad I didn't bring in Ancient Grudge. The turn after I thoughtseized his Azusa, he topdecked and played Summer Bloom. Good game.
EDIT: It is worth noting that two other players, including _matsugan, were in round 4 of the daily with super crazy zoo. They both went 2-2. I don't say this to brag on myself, but it seems like the deck may be picking up in popularity as far as event entry but not keeping up with packs per entry. Time will tell. It does have some nuances that aren't intuitive.
My Trade Thread
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
Also unless I missed it, what is the verdict on boros charm, either in the main or the board? It has a really similiar function to battle rage, but you give up trample for a few extra modes such as the 4 to the face, or making your creatures indestructible to wrath. I've been testing the deck locally along with a few other people and they seem to like a 2-2 split between the two (I'm currently running 3-1, with 1 boros charm) and on a similiar note, ive been running an singleton tainted strike because it works with both combo pieces fairly well and we have a few soul sister decks running around near me.
My Trade Thread
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
This deck builds resources on a lot of platforms that typically aren't interacted with by a lot of decks: the graveyard and the life total. Interactions within the cards in this deck build resources in those two pools at the same time, and the creatures used to attack feed off those synergies. Steppe Lynx feels like an easy exclusion when you first start testing the deck, and some say that they get stuck with a useless cat from time to time. Yes, that happens, but I also win games sometimes with 2-3 lands in my hand that I can't play because of cantrips. Because of players' inexperience AGAINST this deck, Steppe Lynx often gets maximum damage in and then gets removed in events. I'll swing for 4, have no other lands to play, and then the opponent bolts, paths, or decays Lynx. Then the coast is clear for Nacatl, Death's Shadow, whatever else.
Could all of this happen with Goblin Guide? Yes, but you're giving your opponent a Dark Confidant when they are hoping to build mana resources and draw answers, and Guide doesn't feed off the same resource pools that Lynx and Death's Shadow do.
As far as interactions go, when I watch replays, I see people activate Mishra's Bauble at the wrong times and uselessly cantrip when it doesn't actually affect what they're going to do that turn. If I have a Gitaxian Probe, I don't just fire it off turn one unless I have mulled to 5 without getting a creature or have a Monastery Swiftspear to interact with it. If I am going to miss a land drop unless I cantrip into a land, then I will cycle or play Probe. Here are some keys to activating Bauble:
1) If the opponent has burn-type removal, then activate it during your turn. This may draw you into a Mutagenic Growth on their upkeep.
2) If the opponent has discard and no fetchland, then activate it during your opponent's upkeep to see what they are going to draw. That way, the card you cantrip can't be removed with the Thoughtseize and Inquisition they want to play.
3) If the opponent has discard and a fetchland, activate it at the end of their turn.
4) If you have a cantrip and a fetchland, activate it before the fetchland to see if you want to cycle before or after the fetch.
Cycle Street Wraiths before Gitaxian Probes in case you draw into a Monastery Swiftspear. It's embarrassing to do it the other way around.
By waiting to cycle Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe, your opponent's best removal (discard) is not available to them. So many times my opponent turn 1 and turn 2 Thoughtseizes me just to see a couple of Street Wraiths. If I had cycled them turn one just because I could, then I would lose something important like Death's Shadow or Wild Nacatl.
4 goblin guide
4 wild nacatl
4 monastery swiftspear
4 death's shadow
2 kiln fiend
1 hooting mandrills
Card Draw 12
4 street wraith
4 gitaxian probe
4 mishra's bauble
Pump 12
4 become immense
4 mutagenic growth
4 temur battle rage
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
1 blood crypt
1 sacred foundry
1 temple garden
1 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
4 nourishing shoal
4 thoughtseize
2 pact of negation
2 postmortem lunge
2 ancient grudge
1 hooting mandrills
Having 8 haste dudes makes the deck somewhat more resistant to removal. It's easy for an opponent to path or decay a haste dude to make room for the heavy hitters. As far as the sideboard goes, I usually side in 4 thoughtseize against pure combo (amulet, twin, ad nauseam, etc). 4 nourishing shoal and 1 hooting mandrills for burn. I don't really side in the shoals for anything else. I feel like we just race other agro decks. I've had pretty good luck against zoo, fish, and affinity. Control can be a fairly difficult match. I usually side in both pact of negation and usually some number of thoughtseize. Postmortem lunge has been underwhelming. It's decent against discard or decks that pack heavy removal but unless you are at low life and can target a death's shadow and have temur battle rage and enough mana for all those, it usually isn't enough. I almost never side in ancient grudge. I'm wondering if these would be better as faith's shield. I feel like we just race affinity and tron. Am I missing something that I want these for?
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
My Trade Thread