If anyone wants to weigh in on the thread separation ideas (by color or by strategy or something else), do so today. I'm going to tally the "votes" and then post the results here before doing anything further.
I don't mind either split so I'll abstain from voting.
Anyone try monastery siege yet? I have yet to test it out and was wondering if anyone on the forum has had an opportunity to try it.
My thinking is the mana denial plan is a good way to go against some matchups. By making decks pay an extra 2 mana for removal we now make them decide even more whether they want to spend there mana holding up removal or casting creatures.
So for example a Junk player has four mana open with a lingering souls and PTE in hand. Normally he can play lingering souls leaving one mana open to path any attempt at combo. But with monastery siege that play is no longer possible and we put a virtual strain on his mana. It also would delay burn decks as their burn spells would be that much more expensive. Also against decks where the dragons ability isn't that great those matchups the khans ability would apply as we probably want to dig through our decks to find the combo asap and the khans ability helps with that.
Luck has defiantly been on my side in other tournies.
I would call it luck if RUG Twin can beat Junk. Junk has like twelve bombs which Twin has no answers outside of two-for-one and combo option and I think you sided out your combo against those Decays and Paths. Junk is created to destroy Twin with its insane creature and removal suite.
But as we all, we only remember the bad days When we top deck Splinter Twin in a situation when it is an only out we always explain it with "this deck is just consistent" to ourselves.
Luck has defiantly been on my side in other tournies.
I would call it luck if RUG Twin can beat Junk. Junk has like twelve bombs which Twin has no answers outside of two-for-one and combo option and I think you sided out your combo against those Decays and Paths. Junk is created to destroy Twin with its insane creature and removal suite.
But as we all, we only remember the bad days When we top deck Splinter Twin in a situation when it is an only out we always explain it with "this deck is just consistent" to ourselves.
The junk matchup I got pretty lucky yes but the other two I played I mulled to bad 6 card hands and I got pretty punished because of it. Maybe I should have gone to five but who . i still had fun. Grim lavamancer would have been insane in all of the matches I played and it makes bolts live vs so many decks I want to try weaseling some into a rug shell without spreading seas but keeping the bloodmoons in the side.
I vote for a separation of the all the versions of twin into three different threads. UR, rug grixis and uwr all haveing separate ones
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
I think Izzet Twin should get it's own thread. UR, URG and URB are all playing the combo, sure, but as we all know the tempo gameplan is a big part of the deck, and that plays out very different if you're making room for ~6 sorcery-speed creatures... So yeah. I think they're different decks and I don't want to sift through discussions of how many Huntmasters and Surraks you should be playing, or whether you MB or SB discard spells, when we're trying to perfect UR twin.
I have a GP next weekend, and the deck I've been testing (RUG Shackles) turns out to have a worse matchup against Abzan than I originally thought it did. I figure that if I play something with a sketchy Abzan matchup, it might as well have as many free wins as possible.
Twin it is!
Now for the hard part, and apparently very topical given all the discussion of splitting this thread (I agree that it should be split):
I have access to all the cards I could want for any variation of twin, which of the three (TasiTwin, TarmoTwin, and TempoTwin) appears to be best positioned going into Grand Prix Vancouver?
UR Tempo Twin seems to be doing the best and is the most consistent. Just be ready for a lot of hate towards twin because of the recent victory on the PT.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Has there been much thought to trying out Thundermaw Hellkite in the sideboard of the more beatdown, tempo oriented lists like the one I'm presently playing? I was blown out yesterday by it against UR Faeries and it seems stupid to have not considered the card that is designed to beat Lingering Souls for a sideboard option. Batterskull and Keranos tend to be the fair/late game cards to keep in the sideboard, but I hadn't really considered this as an option. It seems fair in the mirror while possibly a better option than something like the 2nd Batterskull in my list for against GBx; I am convinced Keranos is bad for the same reasons that Bitterblossom is, it's just is too slow and doesn't impact the board the turn you play it.
My typical board plan for Junk midrange is
-4 Twin
-2 Exarch
-1 to 2 Izzet Charm
-0 to 3 Remand
+2 Blood Moon
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Batterskull
+1 Dismember
+1 Relic
+0 to 1 EE
Votes are tallied and staff are going to talk about it now. The finally tally was roughly (might have missed 1-2 posts here and there):
Split by color (UR, RUG, UWR, URB): 17
Split by playstyle (All-in, tempo, control): 7
Megathread: 3
I might have missed 1-2 of the megathreads vote because that was never really an option on the table. If you still want to weigh in, feel free to reply to this post. I'll be sure to bring that in to any discussion staff is having. Thanks for working with us as we try to figure out the best way to do all this!
I would definitely prefer the threads to be split by color. I play UR twin and it was a bit frustrating going through the old thread with all the grixis talk. It didn't seem to be too terrible when the talk was mostly RuG and UR, but would still prefer to have a thread dedicated to just UR twin.
I enjoy it being all over the place. It keeps the splashes honest and while still allowing for minor talks here. I've already seen some people dismiss a fairly small white splash (for only the sideboard pretty much) telling them to go over to the UWR Twin thread despite the MB being the exact same as a normal UR twin. I've also seen cases where splitting up by color just creates inbred discussions (e.g. Delver decks) where the decks being discussed aren't the proven decks. While they may be good in theory, they didn't put up results to be worth discussing in their relative tier. Splitting by color would (in my opinion) be a mess.
I personally think UR, RUG/RUB and UWR should be different threads. I realize all have different play styles but there is a lot of cross over, so choosing tempo vs control vs midrange is hard. In current iterations of the decks, RUG/RUB play very similarly and should be grouped together, which the other two play different from each other.
If that type of grouping cannot be done, then I would go with split by color.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
I think you misinterpet what is meant with "all-in-twin".
We are not talking about UR tempo lists with snapcasters and vendilion clique, we are talking about straight up combo twin decks, using 4x sleight of hand, maindeck dispel, pact of negation, boomerang more combo pieces and so on.
Its hard to transform such a deck into a midrange deck by just switching some cards for keranos and batterskull.
I'm sorry but with BGx being 30%+ of the current metagame, Pact of Negation will not protect your combo from Abrupt Decay and you will not be able to play a tempo game plan. Same applies for Combust in the mirror.
I don't think All-in versions of the deck are well positioned to be competitive. You'll have more free wins against decks we already have a good MU against, and worse results against decks we have bad MU.
That's just my opinion.
So, back to some decklists:
I was playing a very similar list to Antonio's one at PTFRF, so I thought I might adjust it with some stuff I really liked about hist list:
I've found it more consistent, resilient and tempo-oriented. thought mana denial is good, I'm expecting to see a lot of mirror and Scapeshift, so it's probably not the best idea.
I'm still going back and forth with the 24 land count of Antonio's decklist. I seems really good, but also so unnecessary. Anyone tested a 24 lander list? I think I'd have to cut down 1 snapcaster like he did in order to try it, and I feel like snapcaster is not something I'd like to cut. Definitely deserves to be tested as it has been proven at Pro Tour.
Just my 2 cents.
EDIT: Has anyone thought of Plaxmanta in the board for Mirror, control and BGx? We can even pay the G clause and keep another body, while countering an Abrupt Decay. It also dodges Dispel and Negate.
Votes are tallied and staff are going to talk about it now. The finally tally was roughly (might have missed 1-2 posts here and there):
Split by color (UR, RUG, UWR, URB): 17
Split by playstyle (All-in, tempo, control): 7
Megathread: 3
I might have missed 1-2 of the megathreads vote because that was never really an option on the table. If you still want to weigh in, feel free to reply to this post. I'll be sure to bring that in to any discussion staff is having. Thanks for working with us as we try to figure out the best way to do all this!
VOTE: Split by Playstyle.
The discussion between RUG, UR Tempo and Tasigur Twin is all very relevant to each other. Splitting this discussion of Tempo Twin into 3 separate threads is likely to result in fewer posts/ less discussion IMO.
I've been playing TasiTwin and straight UR Tempo Twin, and I think both play so similarly we should just split the threads by playstyle, as IMO splitting by color would dilute the discussion and would get really messy, as people playing different decks would post on the same threads just because they play the same colors (like an all-in UR player posting on the UR tempo thread, or a Grixis all-in posting on the URb thread).
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"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
Anyone try monastery siege yet? I have yet to test it out and was wondering if anyone on the forum has had an opportunity to try it.
My thinking is the mana denial plan is a good way to go against some matchups. By making decks pay an extra 2 mana for removal we now make them decide even more whether they want to spend there mana holding up removal or casting creatures.
So for example a Junk player has four mana open with a lingering souls and PTE in hand. Normally he can play lingering souls leaving one mana open to path any attempt at combo. But with monastery siege that play is no longer possible and we put a virtual strain on his mana. It also would delay burn decks as their burn spells would be that much more expensive. Also against decks where the dragons ability isn't that great those matchups the khans ability would apply as we probably want to dig through our decks to find the combo asap and the khans ability helps with that.
I would call it luck if RUG Twin can beat Junk. Junk has like twelve bombs which Twin has no answers outside of two-for-one and combo option and I think you sided out your combo against those Decays and Paths. Junk is created to destroy Twin with its insane creature and removal suite.
But as we all, we only remember the bad days When we top deck Splinter Twin in a situation when it is an only out we always explain it with "this deck is just consistent" to ourselves.
Modern
WUBRG
The junk matchup I got pretty lucky yes but the other two I played I mulled to bad 6 card hands and I got pretty punished because of it. Maybe I should have gone to five but who . i still had fun. Grim lavamancer would have been insane in all of the matches I played and it makes bolts live vs so many decks I want to try weaseling some into a rug shell without spreading seas but keeping the bloodmoons in the side.
I vote for a separation of the all the versions of twin into three different threads. UR, rug grixis and uwr all haveing separate ones
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Twin it is!
Now for the hard part, and apparently very topical given all the discussion of splitting this thread (I agree that it should be split):
I have access to all the cards I could want for any variation of twin, which of the three (TasiTwin, TarmoTwin, and TempoTwin) appears to be best positioned going into Grand Prix Vancouver?
My typical board plan for Junk midrange is
-4 Twin
-2 Exarch
-1 to 2 Izzet Charm
-0 to 3 Remand
+2 Blood Moon
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Batterskull
+1 Dismember
+1 Relic
+0 to 1 EE
2 Deceiver Exarch
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Pestermite
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Instants
2 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Spell Snare
1 Flame Slash
4 Serum Visions
Enchantment
1 Blood Moon
4 Splinter Twin
Land
5 Island
1 Mountain
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Stomping Ground
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Batterskull
2 Blood Moon
1 Dismember
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Negate
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spellskite
1 Vendilion Clique
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
I was testing with 2, but I think I am going to drop to 1 and add a shackles. 1-2 seems to be the norm from the lists I see people posting
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Split by color (UR, RUG, UWR, URB): 17
Split by playstyle (All-in, tempo, control): 7
Megathread: 3
I might have missed 1-2 of the megathreads vote because that was never really an option on the table. If you still want to weigh in, feel free to reply to this post. I'll be sure to bring that in to any discussion staff is having. Thanks for working with us as we try to figure out the best way to do all this!
If that type of grouping cannot be done, then I would go with split by color.
I'm sorry but with BGx being 30%+ of the current metagame, Pact of Negation will not protect your combo from Abrupt Decay and you will not be able to play a tempo game plan. Same applies for Combust in the mirror.
I don't think All-in versions of the deck are well positioned to be competitive. You'll have more free wins against decks we already have a good MU against, and worse results against decks we have bad MU.
That's just my opinion.
So, back to some decklists:
I was playing a very similar list to Antonio's one at PTFRF, so I thought I might adjust it with some stuff I really liked about hist list:
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Deceiver Exarch
2x Pestermite
Instants/Sorceries (21):
1x Flame Slash
1x Izzet Charm
4x Serum Visions
1x Peek
1x Dispel
1x Electrolyze
2x Spell Snare
2x Cryptic Command
4x Remand
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Splinter Twin
Lands (23):
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Sulfur Falls
1x Breeding Pool
3x Steam Vents
1x Desolate Lighthouse
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Mountain
4x Island
1x Dispel
1x Combust
1x Keranos, God of Storms
3x Blood Moon
2x Spellskite
1x Negate
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Pyroclasm
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Shatterstorm
1x Anger of the Gods
So, the changes from my previous list are:
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Deceiver Exarch
+1 Dispel
+1 Sulfur Falls
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 Jace, Architect of Thought (SB)
-3 Spreading Seas
-1 Pestermite
-1 Izzet Charm
-1 Tectonic Edge
-1 Anger of the Gods (SB)
I've found it more consistent, resilient and tempo-oriented. thought mana denial is good, I'm expecting to see a lot of mirror and Scapeshift, so it's probably not the best idea.
I'm still going back and forth with the 24 land count of Antonio's decklist. I seems really good, but also so unnecessary. Anyone tested a 24 lander list? I think I'd have to cut down 1 snapcaster like he did in order to try it, and I feel like snapcaster is not something I'd like to cut. Definitely deserves to be tested as it has been proven at Pro Tour.
Just my 2 cents.
EDIT: Has anyone thought of Plaxmanta in the board for Mirror, control and BGx? We can even pay the G clause and keep another body, while countering an Abrupt Decay. It also dodges Dispel and Negate.
VOTE: Split by Playstyle.
The discussion between RUG, UR Tempo and Tasigur Twin is all very relevant to each other. Splitting this discussion of Tempo Twin into 3 separate threads is likely to result in fewer posts/ less discussion IMO.