A good scapeshift player won't cast scapeshift if he see a tectonic edge in play and he have only 7 lands unless he have no choice but to try for it this turn or lose the game which generally wouldn't happen cos they play more counterspells than twin and can afford to fight over twin combo since they have more mana..
So what? Are we all playing the pro tour here? It's something to take into account, when they fetch only 6 mountains, it can be mitigated with T Edge. Worst case scenario, we buy a turn just by dropping it, isn't it what tempo is about? Buying turns while beating down? Plus, you if you go fishing counterspells (they run Commands and Remands only G1) early turns you will drain remands out, which means they are not ramping and you keep your threats in hand. If they command, they're still not ramping and you still dig your answers for the counterwar. If they go ramping, we can go beating.
If the reasoning will be 'a good player wouldn't do this or that', then there's no discussion to have and we can just say only good topdecks win games.
Equally it's no point making a play that only a scrub would fall for. It's like extolling the virtues of Fool's Mate in chess. It's a good option to know - but let's not assume that a single Tectonic Edge will make the game easy for us.
That said, Tectonic Edge is a great play vs. Scapeshift in that it does buy time - which we desperately need. They win the counter war and are the better control deck which leads to greater inevitability on their side of the table. The best option is to go full on beat-down and race.
The list looks quite good. A few remarks:
1) Objectively speaking (I know it's your pet card), how has venser worked for you?
2) Have you ever run into problems running 3 colorless lands, especially given the fact you only run 22 lands?
List tags are malformed.
I played a mirror on Wed. I was going try to get the advantage of not needing to worry about protecting the combo by siding it out but figured my opponent would as well so boarded into a more all-in version. My opponent thought the exact same thing so G2 ended up being a replay of G1 basically. We went to time in G3!
So just my 2 cents, since a thread for grixis twin is already out there.
Grixis and RUG right now only splash for 1 creature basically, Tasigur or Tarmogoyf and a few cards in the SB (like terminate, which is also mainboard, or enchantment removal etc). However the game plan remains the same. The deck is still a tempo/combo deck. There is not inherent change to signify difference and thus it makes it weird to have 3 different threads (UR, RUG, grixis) to discuss the same game plan pretty much.
Now I understand it is not exactly the same, since it is easier to go to a more midrangey route with the splashes but the deck still is a splinter twin deck. The difference with the white splash is that is changes a lot of things, you get restoration angels, wall of omens, path to exiles, helixes, you play more like a UWR control deck rather than a Twin deck. But the splashes play like a twin deck to me.
I also understand that it might be frustrating for some people who are dedicated UR to get every 4-5 posts a splashed decklist, but it still remains more or less the same deck.
Breaking down to multiple threads will only result in underleveled discussions in the splashed threads (because a lot of people won't notice) and someone bringing a splash in the UR thread only to have him directed in the other, less popular thread.
Of course if the mods decide that it will be better to divide the threads, by all means, but at the moment, I don't think there is a need to divide the threads, just rename this one UR and URb/g Twin.
Just a question about Venser. You can twin him and still get his ETB effect, then select the one with twin on him right? Because he's legendary you can't keep one, but that doesn't matter?
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
Against the mirror, who sides out all 4 splinter twins?
I never side out all of the twins. I will usually leave 1 in. After all it is a win condition. I understand that the likelihood of drawing the one Twin in the deck may make it seem suboptimal. This one copy does give you a "I win!!!" option in the grindy match ups where attrition and board state have already force your opponent to use all of their removal. In these longer match ups you are more likely to see the one copy.
@sled_dog - Yes if you put Splinter Twin on a Venser, Shaper Savant the ETB will trigger and you will then have to choose which copy you want to keep.
I'm not sure that I'm sold on Destructive Revelry in the mirror. Post side there are more counters that can target Destructive Revelry (Dispel, Negate, Spell Snare) than there is Nature's Claim (Dispel, Negate). This might not seem important. But if Destructive Revelry is your answer to Splinter Twin then I think the better option is still Combust.
I'm glad that we're on the topic of Destructive Revelry, Nature's Claim, etc. I'm currently running a Stomping Ground for 2 SB Ancient Grudge, but now I'm thinking I need an answer for enchantments, specifically Choke. As we are now the top dog, and really always should have been, I suspect we'll face that card often. I've also been running into a lot of Seal of Primordium, which might keep me off a g2 Blood Moon plan, but I'm far less concerned about that.
Now, the appeal of Nature's Claim is the G mana cost. That allows me to play around Choke a bit easier. The 4 life isn't all that detrimental to the tempo plan when you consider that you can effectively play around Choke a full turn earlier, at least in theory. 1 Nature's Claim and 1 Ancient Grudge seems reasonable.
Running a Sacred Foundry instead for Wear//Tear, on the other hand, provides the same benefit, but we no longer want to run Ancient Grudge. Are there any other techy cards that could go with this minimal splash that would help prevent Abrupt Decay from having the impact that it does? Boros Charm and Valorous Stance come to mind. I'm thinking this may be the answer to my qualms, although my sideboard plan against Affinity gets substantially worse when I can't flashback my artifact destruction spell for G.
I do want to point out that I'd like to stick to the UR plan with the white splash, assuming this is the route I end up taking, serving simply to improve our odds against decks like Abzan.
list is sort of janky but will see how it does and come back and talk about any matches that were relavent. the store i am going to has 50% jank 50% actual decks so who knows what'll happen
Wonder if I should go to 4 remand 1 charm or 3 remand 2 spell snare. Izzet charm modes are nice though. Maybe even cut a twin for something like charm or grim lavamancer. Last minute thoughts on tuning anyone?
been really liking 3 remand and 2 spell snare personally
Just personally seeing if i can weasel in that 7th removal spell somehwere and izzet charm is a spell pierce, bad shock, cantrip in one card. Its not the best but i like it. I have done everything with it over the 6 months I've played it. Everything from pitching extra twins to countering lilianas
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Pretty cool card I will agree, I just haven't tested Izzet Charm and maybe I ought to give it a try
Its not the kind of effect that you want lots of but having it as a one of is really nice. I dont know if I want it over spell snare in this meta but the fact that its flexible allows it to fill a host of different roles in the deck than just one of three types of spells twin runs
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Went 1-2 drop cause I had to leave
M1 against soul sisters
Mull to 6 and get way behind but have 3 tries to hit command to stall or a twin to combo off. Brick and I lose with him at 56
G2 I get flooded a tad, I forgot a lot of the specifics but I lose pretty quickly when I have no answer to turn 1 ascendant activated by martyr.
Match 2 win vs junk
G1 pestermite beats on the back of remands and seas gets the job done pretty quickly
G2 I flood and he beats me with a big goyf
G3 he takes moon and batterskull with thoughtzeizes but ignores my two goyfs. He makes them massive and has a removal spell for my pestermite. He plays a rhino but I charm + bolt it and crucnch for 12 with 6/7 goyfs. And then finish it with a bolt
Never got to moon but the card ate a thoughtseize and allowed goyfs to stick around
Match 3 vs uwr delver with ascendancy
Game 1 I mull to 6 and keep a hand with no turn 1 removal. I finally kill his turn 1 delver after getting wacked twice and remanding some cantrips of his to dig. I eventually get something going by electrolyze his delver and then playing a 4/5 goyf. I snap elcectolyze some raise the alarm tokens and beat him to 9. I untap with a 5/6 goyf from an enchantment hitting the yard from his ascendancy looting. I then think I punt the game by using cryptic pre blockers to go for lethal with a bolt in my hand. If he has a counter I am dead on the backswing from burn but feel like I have to go for it. The goyf gets though putting him at 4 but snap gets bolted. He cracks a fetch to 3 and I try for the bolt but he has the counter for it and I lose on the backswing.
Game2 I mull to 6 again for a reactive hand. We pass back and forth and I kill his first two dudes but a young pyro comes out to play as I begin to flood. I go for goyfs but he counters. I sweep the board with anger. And tappout for deceiver to get something going and with no counter magic all game. He shows me 2 bolt and snap when I am at 8 and I lose.
Luck has defiantly been on my side in other tournies.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Free Splinter Twin and Stoneforge Mystic
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Equally it's no point making a play that only a scrub would fall for. It's like extolling the virtues of Fool's Mate in chess. It's a good option to know - but let's not assume that a single Tectonic Edge will make the game easy for us.
That said, Tectonic Edge is a great play vs. Scapeshift in that it does buy time - which we desperately need. They win the counter war and are the better control deck which leads to greater inevitability on their side of the table. The best option is to go full on beat-down and race.
The list looks quite good. A few remarks:
1) Objectively speaking (I know it's your pet card), how has venser worked for you?
2) Have you ever run into problems running 3 colorless lands, especially given the fact you only run 22 lands?
List tags are malformed.
is mana leak good in twin list? especially without moons
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Narset, Enlightened Master
Modern
Twin
Grixis and RUG right now only splash for 1 creature basically, Tasigur or Tarmogoyf and a few cards in the SB (like terminate, which is also mainboard, or enchantment removal etc). However the game plan remains the same. The deck is still a tempo/combo deck. There is not inherent change to signify difference and thus it makes it weird to have 3 different threads (UR, RUG, grixis) to discuss the same game plan pretty much.
Now I understand it is not exactly the same, since it is easier to go to a more midrangey route with the splashes but the deck still is a splinter twin deck. The difference with the white splash is that is changes a lot of things, you get restoration angels, wall of omens, path to exiles, helixes, you play more like a UWR control deck rather than a Twin deck. But the splashes play like a twin deck to me.
I also understand that it might be frustrating for some people who are dedicated UR to get every 4-5 posts a splashed decklist, but it still remains more or less the same deck.
Breaking down to multiple threads will only result in underleveled discussions in the splashed threads (because a lot of people won't notice) and someone bringing a splash in the UR thread only to have him directed in the other, less popular thread.
Of course if the mods decide that it will be better to divide the threads, by all means, but at the moment, I don't think there is a need to divide the threads, just rename this one UR and URb/g Twin.
Cheers.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
I never side out all of the twins. I will usually leave 1 in. After all it is a win condition. I understand that the likelihood of drawing the one Twin in the deck may make it seem suboptimal. This one copy does give you a "I win!!!" option in the grindy match ups where attrition and board state have already force your opponent to use all of their removal. In these longer match ups you are more likely to see the one copy.
@sled_dog - Yes if you put Splinter Twin on a Venser, Shaper Savant the ETB will trigger and you will then have to choose which copy you want to keep.
I'm not sure that I'm sold on Destructive Revelry in the mirror. Post side there are more counters that can target Destructive Revelry (Dispel, Negate, Spell Snare) than there is Nature's Claim (Dispel, Negate). This might not seem important. But if Destructive Revelry is your answer to Splinter Twin then I think the better option is still Combust.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
1 breeding pool
1 stomping ground
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 island
1 forest
1 mountain
1 flooded strand
2 sulfur falls
1 hinterland harbor
Wonder what I would cut. Bloodmoon works ok but a loothouse would greatly help digging
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Now, the appeal of Nature's Claim is the G mana cost. That allows me to play around Choke a bit easier. The 4 life isn't all that detrimental to the tempo plan when you consider that you can effectively play around Choke a full turn earlier, at least in theory. 1 Nature's Claim and 1 Ancient Grudge seems reasonable.
Running a Sacred Foundry instead for Wear//Tear, on the other hand, provides the same benefit, but we no longer want to run Ancient Grudge. Are there any other techy cards that could go with this minimal splash that would help prevent Abrupt Decay from having the impact that it does? Boros Charm and Valorous Stance come to mind. I'm thinking this may be the answer to my qualms, although my sideboard plan against Affinity gets substantially worse when I can't flashback my artifact destruction spell for G.
I do want to point out that I'd like to stick to the UR plan with the white splash, assuming this is the route I end up taking, serving simply to improve our odds against decks like Abzan.
1x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
3x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Splinter Twin
2x Spreading Seas
1x Huntmaster of the Fells Flip
3x Pestermite
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Cryptic Command
1x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Remand
1x Spell Snare
1x izzet charm
1x Flame Slash
1x Gitaxian Probe
4x Serum Visions
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Batterskull
2x Blood Moon
1x Combust
2x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Negate
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
list is sort of janky but will see how it does and come back and talk about any matches that were relavent. the store i am going to has 50% jank 50% actual decks so who knows what'll happen
Wonder if I should go to 4 remand 1 charm or 3 remand 2 spell snare. Izzet charm modes are nice though. Maybe even cut a twin for something like charm or grim lavamancer. Last minute thoughts on tuning anyone?
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
Just personally seeing if i can weasel in that 7th removal spell somehwere and izzet charm is a spell pierce, bad shock, cantrip in one card. Its not the best but i like it. I have done everything with it over the 6 months I've played it. Everything from pitching extra twins to countering lilianas
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
Its not the kind of effect that you want lots of but having it as a one of is really nice. I dont know if I want it over spell snare in this meta but the fact that its flexible allows it to fill a host of different roles in the deck than just one of three types of spells twin runs
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
M1 against soul sisters
Mull to 6 and get way behind but have 3 tries to hit command to stall or a twin to combo off. Brick and I lose with him at 56
G2 I get flooded a tad, I forgot a lot of the specifics but I lose pretty quickly when I have no answer to turn 1 ascendant activated by martyr.
Match 2 win vs junk
G1 pestermite beats on the back of remands and seas gets the job done pretty quickly
G2 I flood and he beats me with a big goyf
G3 he takes moon and batterskull with thoughtzeizes but ignores my two goyfs. He makes them massive and has a removal spell for my pestermite. He plays a rhino but I charm + bolt it and crucnch for 12 with 6/7 goyfs. And then finish it with a bolt
Never got to moon but the card ate a thoughtseize and allowed goyfs to stick around
Match 3 vs uwr delver with ascendancy
Game 1 I mull to 6 and keep a hand with no turn 1 removal. I finally kill his turn 1 delver after getting wacked twice and remanding some cantrips of his to dig. I eventually get something going by electrolyze his delver and then playing a 4/5 goyf. I snap elcectolyze some raise the alarm tokens and beat him to 9. I untap with a 5/6 goyf from an enchantment hitting the yard from his ascendancy looting. I then think I punt the game by using cryptic pre blockers to go for lethal with a bolt in my hand. If he has a counter I am dead on the backswing from burn but feel like I have to go for it. The goyf gets though putting him at 4 but snap gets bolted. He cracks a fetch to 3 and I try for the bolt but he has the counter for it and I lose on the backswing.
Game2 I mull to 6 again for a reactive hand. We pass back and forth and I kill his first two dudes but a young pyro comes out to play as I begin to flood. I go for goyfs but he counters. I sweep the board with anger. And tappout for deceiver to get something going and with no counter magic all game. He shows me 2 bolt and snap when I am at 8 and I lose.
Luck has defiantly been on my side in other tournies.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR