MTG Salvation

In my opinion, the best way to corral the Twin threads would be UR Twin, and RUx Twin. It really seems the most logical to me, as the general reason for adding a third color seems to be the same, regardless of which color it may be.

Quote from MrM0nd4y »

Apart from that: Pretty selfish sight of things.

It's not selfish at all. Wanting to have one concise, organized place to look at ideas for your deck is exactly what this forum is for. It's like saying you're being selfish for not wanting Jund discussion in the Junk thread.

I second this. UR and other variants need to be separate. UR is tier 1,the others are not and should be designated to different threads for that reason

I could see UR having it's own thread with Grixis and Temur sharing a thread.

The main difference between Grixis and Temur is that Grixis gains better main board removal while Temur has better sided artifact hate. Tasigur and Tarmogoyf are the main reasons to splash B and G and they fulfill the same function.

I usually am a lurker on this thread, but I've been playing Twin since about halfway through the Treasure Cruise era. I've been following this thread pretty extensively, reading up on Twin as much as I can wherever I can. Since it regards the future of these threads I figure voicing an opinion is important for what it's worth. I think UR Twin is the only deck in this season to be putting up significant numbers and therefore should be a separate thread. Grixis and Temur both have a very similar gameplan with the goyf/tasigur beats option. As for uwr, it can stay its own thread, because most of those lists tend to lean much more controlling with path, helix, timely, resto, etc. I think the mild splashes should be allowed in the ur thread (for instance ancient grudge in the side, wear//tear, etc.). Significant splashes such as tarmogoyf and tasigur are slightly different decks from straight up ur tempo twin, but I believe they deserve a separate thread.

I like the idea of a UR thread and a Grixis/Temur thread since, as others have said, they follow a very similar game plan. I started playing twin with a splash for midrange beats, but I am now shifting to UR.

I think three separate threads is in the works instead. Grixis and rug play differently enough. Grixis is more controlling while rug is more tempo. They are quite different.

Makes sense. I do feel like dividing up from 2 threads into 4 may not be the best option though. However, I would like a thread for particularly UR. So I can see how the Grixis and Rug players would want their own concise and thought-provoking threads too.

An sub archtype split of the tempo (UR) , midrange ( RUG/URB) and control (UWR) will probably be nice since in general their main deck choices and sideboarding are different and they have different advantages vs different decks.

Will be good if in the beginning of the primer, there can be links to the different threads if split.. I guess quality discussion should be prioritized over the convenience purposes of being able to find all the information in 1 thread. In fact, the only convenience you get is just that you only have to stick to one thread to look but if you really think carefully, sometimes the hassle of having to look through so many different pages just to get some information regarding the variations that you want is actually more time consuming than the fact of having to just go another thread that is more specialized in that sub archtype.

The only cons I do see with the spliting of the sub archtypes is that generally getting good discussion in other threads will be an issue.. Even in the UwR thread which was set up more than 1/2 yr ago, it took only 4 days for this newly posted twin thread to have more posts than it. Which means people are still going to flock back over to UR twin thread to find suggestions and ideas if other twin thread is inactive or does not have very active discussion..

The problem with splitting them up into archetype causes issues, because you could easily have a rug, grixis, even ur control build. and you would run into the same conflict now, of everyone conflicting over which color combination is best for tempo, control, midrange, etc.

Yup. I get what you mean. No matter how people want to split up the thread, there bound to have some issues. I doubt we can achieve a foolproof perfect solution though.

I mean the main point is what is the thread aiming to accomplish at the end? If it is to have high quality discussion for competitive play, I guess some organization will be necessary at the end to prevent the diluting of quality discussion and have lesser players asking the basic questions that are not relevant to the style of play all the time.

Quote from SaintA »

Why was Antonio running the one Tectonic Edge?

And is Keranos sided in vs Abzan? I don't think they have an answer for it except TS and maybe 1 SB card.

Also, I'm new, but I like Spellskite. Turn 1 Serum Visions, you need something on Turn 2, either Remand or Spellskite? It helps the combo and dare I say, even Tempo? It gives your Pestermite/Clique and even poor old Snaps a bit of protection if you're stuck on the tempo/alternate beat down plan. Our guys aren't that tough and he helps save them (and us) some damage for only 2 mana. Plus you have random edge vs Splinter Twin, Burn, Boogles and buys a land drop/turn vs Scapeshift?

I cut 'Izzet Charm' (which doesn't seem popular now).

Played my first 4 matches and went 4-0 losing 1 game. Beat Tron very easily (MD Blood Moon), Soul Sisters (learned the hard way you can't win with 2-3 Soul sisters in play!), Boogles (to slow but I misplayed Cryptic Command), and W/r cool deck with value guys and KOR Firewalker maindeck (this thing would eat up a burn deck).

My 2 cents:

The one tectonic edge can save you from scapeshift: They cast Scapeshift, it resolves, they fetch 6/8 lands, a lot of triggers are stacked, in response you destroy a nonbasic mountain: only one mountain will resolve the trigger the valakut/s getting you 3/6/9 damage, depending on how many valakuts are in play (most likely 3/6 damage). It also helps against 4 color zoo and BGx decks, as you can deny one color and tap lands at upkeep to tempo them out, which is the best way to go fo those match ups.

Keranos is Good against Affinity, Control (if you manage to resolve it you win, you can achieve this by fishing counterspells at their upkpeeps with pestermites and eot snpacasters), Abzan, Zoo, Merfolk, creature decks and control. You side out the combo, side in more removal and resolve a keranos on a controlled board, you win with tempo effects: tap + bolts + snaps.

Spellskite is good against Bogles, Infect, mirror, BGx(on the play) and UWR, but I wouldn't go for it mainboard, I'd rather have a clique or an izzet charm to dig combo/answers/protection G1, or simply anything that helps going the tempo route. Same as for blood moon, it's good against 40/50 % of the metagame, and a lousy draw against the rest. It feels like flipping coins to me, not a straight up strategy.



PS: The URb thread has already been created, let's just move on.

A good scapeshift player won't cast scapeshift if he see a tectonic edge in play and he have only 7 lands unless he have no choice but to try for it this turn or lose the game which generally wouldn't happen cos they play more counterspells than twin and can afford to fight over twin combo since they have more mana..

The problem is that Twin puts a clock on them. Sure they can sit back all day and fight over the combo, but the entire time they'll be getting Bolts/Snap/Pestermite beats to the face. Tec Edge forces them to delay, which plays into our plan.

Quote from Deathsycthx »

A good scapeshift player won't cast scapeshift if he see a tectonic edge in play and he have only 7 lands unless he have no choice but to try for it this turn or lose the game which generally wouldn't happen cos they play more counterspells than twin and can afford to fight over twin combo since they have more mana..

So what? Are we all playing the pro tour here? It's something to take into account, when they fetch only 6 mountains, it can be mitigated with T Edge. Worst case scenario, we buy a turn just by dropping it, isn't it what tempo is about? Buying turns while beating down? Plus, you if you go fishing counterspells (they run Commands and Remands only G1) early turns you will drain remands out, which means they are not ramping and you keep your threats in hand. If they command, they're still not ramping and you still dig your answers for the counterwar. If they go ramping, we can go beating.

If the reasoning will be 'a good player wouldn't do this or that', then there's no discussion to have and we can just say only good topdecks win games.

Quote from MrM0nd4y »

The problem is that Twin puts a clock on them. Sure they can sit back all day and fight over the combo, but the entire time they'll be getting Bolts/Snap/Pestermite beats to the face. Tec Edge forces them to delay, which plays into our plan.

This.

There isn't a need to get defensive. I was also only highlighting the fact that generally that doesn't happen that often but is good to know that but tect edge doesn't counter scapeshift that much. It buys us turns which is good of course. My point is not disagreeing with the choice of tect edge anyway. It is a good card to have at times and sure it delays abit which is good.

I play both twin and scapeshift and occasionally make my playgroup and friends play scapeshift for me to try out twin.. It isn't that bad but can hard to combo off at times..

Edit: scapeshift does run izzet charms and most recent version always have bolts as well plus electrolyze for removal. different verison have sweepers though I think with recent list, they might have taken out since cruise was banned so that does make the tempo plan so much better at the moment.

Quote from Deathsycthx »

There isn't a need to get defensive. I was also only highlighting the fact that generally that doesn't happen that often but is good to know that but tect edge doesn't counter scapeshift that much. It buys us turns which is good of course. My point is not disagreeing with the choice of tect edge anyway. It is a good card to have at times and sure it delays abit which is good.

I play both twin and scapeshift and occasionally make my playgroup and friends play scapeshift for me to try out twin.. It isn't that bad but can hard to combo off at times..

Not getting defensive, just pointing out that those kind of arguments lead to nowhere since 'a good player does this or that' or 'a good player doesn't do this or that' doesn't help to elaborate why cards are good or not against different MUs. If you play double Tec Edge against scapeshift, they're done, cause you can blow up 2 lands, even when they have just 4 lands and you take em out of a color, like green. Activate Tec Edge, hold priority, activate second tec edge, you blowout Scapeshift out of green by T4 and they're pretty much using they're digging to find green sources rather than combo/protection. You can drop any other land and keep the beating real, while they can't combo nor stop you: if they try to stop you they fall behind (which scapeshift can't really handle) and if they don't they open for you to combo, so it's pretty much a dead end. Not saying that this scenario is common, but if it presents to the table the Twin pleyer needs to know how to take advantage of it, that's the whole purpose of the thread.

Somehow in my playtesting so far, it is generally better to blow up their land even before they scapeshift.. but whether that is the optimal play or not is really situational i guess.

why i dont see a lavamans in UR twin lists at all?
they seems good vs all creature decks and have a some tricks vs goyfs. And now we have some cards on grave for they

What do you guys thinking of jamming the playset of spreading seas into UR Twin? I've played some games with it and am still undecided

Quote from skillsguy »

What do you guys thinking of jamming the playset of spreading seas into UR Twin? I've played some games with it and am still undecided

I would top at 2, tbh.