Awesome, thanks for the advice. Helix vs Jund is a good call and taking out discard in both makes sense. I am trying to hone my sideboard game for the SCG Open in Milwaukee next month.
This may seem like an obvious question, but what's your plan for Affinity? It seems like we want to take out TS for sure, but how about Inquisition? Do we keep it in because it's the only reliable answer to Etched Champion?
If we wanted scry effects, we could just run Magma Jet. The only real other contenders for Bob would be either Abbot of Keral Keep or Asylum Visitor.
Abbot is even worse, dont you think?
You can never Cast him on turn 2.
He's a Dead draw until...turn 5 maybe.
Depending on your shell, you need answers.
Conditional answers is terrible.
Maybe draw? Exile a card and loosing a card? Sry, don't buy it.
Veteran is a bad choice? Certainly not the best but considering two "maybe do something" cards is worst.
The only real contender to Bob is Phyrexian Arena, though not in the same point of the curve.
Hello, I have been reading some of the earlier posts on this subject and I am wondering why people have stopped playing Hero of Bladehold and swords. Maybe they are just to slow now. Thanks for answering.
Hello, I have been reading some of the earlier posts on this subject and I am wondering why people have stopped playing Hero of Bladehold and swords. Maybe they are just to slow now. Thanks for answering.
Brimaz is faster to cast, but hero makes more dudes and pumps the entire team. Having four souls on the field becomes really scary when hero gets dropped.
Crackling doom may seem great against certain decks but it is too mana intensive in a deck that run the cheapest efficient removals. If you have not maxed out on Liliana, this is a stronger option that is more versatile.
Discard spells typically go out against abzan/jund in midrange battles. You will be in top deck wars fast. Although it is worth noting that you should probably still keep some to handle deadly sideboard cards if your deck is vulnerable to them.
Etched champion is a problem but there is a better option than crackling doom: runed halo. Stops so many things I am too lazy to write them down.
Brimaz/hero are not good enough without anthems. Chumped by go wide aggro decks and Tarmogoyfs all day. If you are looking for a finisher, gideon az is good, though not as good as in tokens.
Also what do you think about Young Pyromancer I have found it to be quite good, as it makes all our 1 for 1 removal spells into 1/1 that get buffed by intangible virtue.
I think Crackling Doom is a very strong SB option for all the matchups mentioned & most of the time its fail case is a 3 mana terminate with upside. Maxing out on Lilianas is good, but doesn't play around Spellskite or hit Reality Smasher when there's a Hierarch out. The question is just how you prioritize your SB slots for those MUs.
RE Young Pyro builds, a card to strengthen Pyro that's actually good on it's own is more copies of Kolaghan's Command. Lines like t3 shock + buyback the T2 pyro that was killed & T4 dropping it with multiple 1 mana instant & sorceries up is pretty strong & flexible.
Discard spells typically go out against abzan/jund in midrange battles. You will be in top deck wars fast. Although it is worth noting that you should probably still keep some to handle deadly sideboard cards if your deck is vulnerable to them.
As the frequent victim of getting betrayed by multiple souls in a single night in the Jund MU, I disagree with this simply because those really unbeatable SB cards are often not played at all and otherwise only 1-2 cards in your opponent's deck which means that statistically your most likely way to face them is when they're played from the top. And you reaaalllyy don't want to be in the position where your opponent draws gas/removal turn 10ish and you're hitting that sweet sweet Thoughtseize.
Quote from Mandriva »
I'm playing a Young Pyromancer list right now and he did not excel for me yet. I only have 2 FNMs with 9 games so far. I play him alongside 3 Butcher of the Horde. I consider using Bitter Blossom as well or as replacement. I also play 4 Manamorphose to get free tokens from Pyromancer and to find answers faster (alongside a playst of 4 Faithless Looting.
I think you got your answer right there, you are playing a bunch of bad cards to improve Peezy and none of them is able to get him to crazy value machine even in the face of removal. IMO that's not necessary though, all that Pyro wants you to do in terms of deckbuilding is playing a ton of instants and sorceries, having a low curve and having some ways to re-gas (Bob, Abbot, ...). Manamorphose is really dodgy in terms of mulligan decisions, Looting is card disadvantage if you're not discarding Souls and Butcher is a 4-drop with no ETB effect, which like Hero would be playble in an alternate universe Modern but definitely not in the world we're living in right now.
But you should give Pyro a try in a less "dedicated" shell and just expect him to be a 2-drop that has to be dealt with and that you can play on T3/4 with mana up for an immediate token.
You don't really have that much room to take out ALL your discard spells. I was simply implying one should not bring bad cards out of the sideboard just for the sake of running a discard-less build. You will probably have 2-4 in the build after sideboarding. Soul's Betrayal is bad but I was also considering Engineered Explosives and Anger of the Gods. In a deck that's light on threats, those are a pretty big deal.
Side note: I think we've discussed a million times that Young Pyromancer is simply not good in Modern. Different story in Legacy but in Modern, the meta and deck constraints prevent him from being good. Even if you ideally cast him on turn 3/4 with ways to protect him, a couple 1/1 *grounded* tokens are not a big deal for any decent Modern deck. It's a high risk, low reward approach.
I think Crackling Doom is a very strong SB option for all the matchups mentioned & most of the time its fail case is a 3 mana terminate with upside. Maxing out on Lilianas is good, but doesn't play around Spellskite or hit Reality Smasher when there's a Hierarch out. The question is just how you prioritize your SB slots for those MUs.
RE Young Pyro builds, a card to strengthen Pyro that's actually good on it's own is more copies of Kolaghan's Command. Lines like t3 shock + buyback the T2 pyro that was killed & T4 dropping it with multiple 1 mana instant & sorceries up is pretty strong & flexible.
Very strong, as in 3-mana for a 1-for-1 trade? A 3-mana terminate w/ upside is virtually unplayable but thankfully, we're not playing Crackling Doom for that role. Modern is such a diverse format I just cannot see how Crackling Doom is worth a place in the sideboard before Liliana or anything else. Runed Halo is a stronger alternative against both Affinity and Eldrazi by the way, rather than relying on the 1-for-1 approach.
I think Runed Halo is much too inflexible and good against radically different MUs (valakut, ad naus). Also, to be clear, I'm definitely not suggesting Doom is better than Lilly, and Lilly also really shouldn't be filling SB slots (keep her main). Doom's best against Boggles, which is otherwise very tough if they're on the play (can't discard their threat) and they play around Lilly with Arbor (which they should), and happens to be strong in a number of other matchups esp against Spellskite decks.
I think Runed Halo is much too inflexible and good against radically different MUs (valakut, ad naus). Also, to be clear, I'm definitely not suggesting Doom is better than Lilly, and Lilly also really shouldn't be filling SB slots (keep her main). Doom's best against Boggles, which is otherwise very tough if they're on the play (can't discard their threat) and they play around Lilly with Arbor (which they should), and happens to be strong in a number of other matchups esp against Spellskite decks.
Runed Halo is good against a lot of decks besides combo. It turns off Thought-Knot Seer completely off though naming Reality Smasher is almost as good. Putting 1-2 Crackling Doom doesn't do anything against these creatures that are run as 8-of in Eldrazi lists. Runed Halo is effective against multiple copies of these cards. Likewise, it is very good against a wide variety of creatures: infect/ dredge/ boggles/ tarmogoyf, etc. I would only refuse to play them if the mana is too intensive for the Mardu build. Although keep in mind Eldrazi is probably still unfavorable for most Mardu lists, just because our deck inherently lacks pressure.
The problem with Crackling Doom is that we already run the best spot removals. You keep naming Spellskite but we run at least 5 removals that can deal with it, even aside from 6-7 discard spells. Runed Halo bypasses the problem of Spellskite entirely anyhow.
The common problem with Spellskite (and why it's so good) is that only a subset of our removal kills it. Skite protecting Thought-knot or goyf demands multiple paths / terminates; path + bolt (which is a more probable draw) does basically nothing there despite the fact that we could remove the Skite. Besides all that, I think the fail case of a 3 mana terminate+ isn't as bad as you claim (though I wouldn't main it).
The common problem with Spellskite (and why it's so good) is that only a subset of our removal kills it. Skite protecting Thought-knot or goyf demands multiple paths / terminates; path + bolt (which is a more probable draw) does basically nothing there despite the fact that we could remove the Skite. Besides all that, I think the fail case of a 3 mana terminate+ isn't as bad as you claim (though I wouldn't main it).
I don't understand why you are creating these specific scenarios with Spellskites. They are run as 2-of at the most in Eldrazi lists, usually in the side, and sometimes never at all. It's not good deck building to focus your attention on one specific scenario. Running one crackling doom is probably not going to win you the game, even if you cast it in said scenario. A better alternative is to run a card like Elspeth, which is amazing in the grindy match-ups and can actually recover a bad boardstate. Mardu already has a problem trying to be too reactive. Without a proactive strategy, you're just giving your opponent more turns to draw into resilient threats the deck can't handle. Even a boardwipe is the better sideboard card.
And you do realize by "subset" you do realize that's 5+ removals and 6-7 discard spells that gets rid of spellskite? I'm not trying to sound like a mean bully here but clearly this is faulty reasoning.
The sideboard should contain extremely impactful cards with some level of versatility. Anger of the Gods is a good example.
I'm new to Mardu, have been playing mostly online with the Nahiri and Dark Confidant Build. Was hoping to post my list here and get some feedback and some advice on a few matchups I've been struggling with online.
Been recording all my matches this last week, hoping to prepare for a big tournament that's coming up where I am in about a week. I'm coming from playing Tron, just got tired of how fairly un-interactive and repetitive that
deck got.
I'm new to Mardu, have been playing mostly online with the Nahiri and Dark Confidant Build. Was hoping to post my list here and get some feedback and some advice on a few matchups I've been struggling with online.
Been recording all my matches this last week, hoping to prepare for a big tournament that's coming up where I am in about a week. I'm coming from playing Tron, just got tired of how fairly un-interactive and repetitive that
deck got.
Been mainly struggling with: Bant Eldrazi, Tron, Scapeshift Decks, and Merfolk.
EDIT: Cards also that I've been considering or have been recommended include:
Collective Brutality instead of Duress
Zealous Persecution or Night of Soul's Betrayal instead of the 2nd Damnation
Hide/Seek instead of Wear/Tear
Thank you for any advice and replies!
You should probably just be running more Lightning Helix vs Timely Reinforcements. From my experience, it's just a better card against both Burn and wide-aggro.
Hide/Seek is definitely a better version of wear/tear.
You shouldn't be running Night Soul's in a deck with Lingering Souls and Dark Confidant. Where would you bring it in? Zealous persecution is powerful but I think for your deck, Damnnation takes priority. You're going to lose a lot more to Eldrazi than something like Affinity/ Infect. Opposing Lingering Souls can be annoying but 1 zealous persecution probably wouldn't solve that problem.
I'm not sure how well positioned Blood Moon is right now. It's 'okay' against some decks(e.g Scapeshift, Eldrazi, Tron, Burn,) Insane against matches we're already pretty good at. But I also know a Blood Moon Jund deck did really well recently so who am I to say?
Also, the Liliana the Last Hope doesn't look too great for this build due to a lack of synergy. I would expect more for 3-mana. Another Liliana of the Veil couldn't hurt. Overall, your list is well-tuned.
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Awesome, thanks for the advice. Helix vs Jund is a good call and taking out discard in both makes sense. I am trying to hone my sideboard game for the SCG Open in Milwaukee next month.
This may seem like an obvious question, but what's your plan for Affinity? It seems like we want to take out TS for sure, but how about Inquisition? Do we keep it in because it's the only reliable answer to Etched Champion?
Abbot is even worse, dont you think?
You can never Cast him on turn 2.
He's a Dead draw until...turn 5 maybe.
Depending on your shell, you need answers.
Conditional answers is terrible.
Maybe draw? Exile a card and loosing a card? Sry, don't buy it.
Veteran is a bad choice? Certainly not the best but considering two "maybe do something" cards is worst.
The only real contender to Bob is Phyrexian Arena, though not in the same point of the curve.
Is there a SB guide for mardu somewhere?
Isn't brimaz better?
Discard spells typically go out against abzan/jund in midrange battles. You will be in top deck wars fast. Although it is worth noting that you should probably still keep some to handle deadly sideboard cards if your deck is vulnerable to them.
Etched champion is a problem but there is a better option than crackling doom: runed halo. Stops so many things I am too lazy to write them down.
Brimaz/hero are not good enough without anthems. Chumped by go wide aggro decks and Tarmogoyfs all day. If you are looking for a finisher, gideon az is good, though not as good as in tokens.
I have played with both lists and here are my thoughts:
Wall of Omens:
Dark Confidant:
I am curious to hear what everyone else thinks.
RE Young Pyro builds, a card to strengthen Pyro that's actually good on it's own is more copies of Kolaghan's Command. Lines like t3 shock + buyback the T2 pyro that was killed & T4 dropping it with multiple 1 mana instant & sorceries up is pretty strong & flexible.
You don't really have that much room to take out ALL your discard spells. I was simply implying one should not bring bad cards out of the sideboard just for the sake of running a discard-less build. You will probably have 2-4 in the build after sideboarding. Soul's Betrayal is bad but I was also considering Engineered Explosives and Anger of the Gods. In a deck that's light on threats, those are a pretty big deal.
Side note: I think we've discussed a million times that Young Pyromancer is simply not good in Modern. Different story in Legacy but in Modern, the meta and deck constraints prevent him from being good. Even if you ideally cast him on turn 3/4 with ways to protect him, a couple 1/1 *grounded* tokens are not a big deal for any decent Modern deck. It's a high risk, low reward approach.
Very strong, as in 3-mana for a 1-for-1 trade? A 3-mana terminate w/ upside is virtually unplayable but thankfully, we're not playing Crackling Doom for that role. Modern is such a diverse format I just cannot see how Crackling Doom is worth a place in the sideboard before Liliana or anything else. Runed Halo is a stronger alternative against both Affinity and Eldrazi by the way, rather than relying on the 1-for-1 approach.
Runed Halo is good against a lot of decks besides combo. It turns off Thought-Knot Seer completely off though naming Reality Smasher is almost as good. Putting 1-2 Crackling Doom doesn't do anything against these creatures that are run as 8-of in Eldrazi lists. Runed Halo is effective against multiple copies of these cards. Likewise, it is very good against a wide variety of creatures: infect/ dredge/ boggles/ tarmogoyf, etc. I would only refuse to play them if the mana is too intensive for the Mardu build. Although keep in mind Eldrazi is probably still unfavorable for most Mardu lists, just because our deck inherently lacks pressure.
The problem with Crackling Doom is that we already run the best spot removals. You keep naming Spellskite but we run at least 5 removals that can deal with it, even aside from 6-7 discard spells. Runed Halo bypasses the problem of Spellskite entirely anyhow.
I don't understand why you are creating these specific scenarios with Spellskites. They are run as 2-of at the most in Eldrazi lists, usually in the side, and sometimes never at all. It's not good deck building to focus your attention on one specific scenario. Running one crackling doom is probably not going to win you the game, even if you cast it in said scenario. A better alternative is to run a card like Elspeth, which is amazing in the grindy match-ups and can actually recover a bad boardstate. Mardu already has a problem trying to be too reactive. Without a proactive strategy, you're just giving your opponent more turns to draw into resilient threats the deck can't handle. Even a boardwipe is the better sideboard card.
And you do realize by "subset" you do realize that's 5+ removals and 6-7 discard spells that gets rid of spellskite? I'm not trying to sound like a mean bully here but clearly this is faulty reasoning.
The sideboard should contain extremely impactful cards with some level of versatility. Anger of the Gods is a good example.
I'm new to Mardu, have been playing mostly online with the Nahiri and Dark Confidant Build. Was hoping to post my list here and get some feedback and some advice on a few matchups I've been struggling with online.
Been recording all my matches this last week, hoping to prepare for a big tournament that's coming up where I am in about a week. I'm coming from playing Tron, just got tired of how fairly un-interactive and repetitive that
deck got.
2x Arid Mesa
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
2x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Shambling Vent
3x Swamp
Creature (6)
4x Dark Confidant
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
1x Terminate
2x Anger of the Gods
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (7)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
3x Blood Moon
2x Damnation
1x Duress
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Wear / Tear
Been mainly struggling with: Bant Eldrazi, Tron, Scapeshift Decks, and Merfolk.
EDIT: Cards also that I've been considering or have been recommended include:
Collective Brutality instead of Duress
Zealous Persecution or Night of Soul's Betrayal instead of the 2nd Damnation
Hide/Seek instead of Wear/Tear
Thank you for any advice and replies!
You should probably just be running more Lightning Helix vs Timely Reinforcements. From my experience, it's just a better card against both Burn and wide-aggro.
Hide/Seek is definitely a better version of wear/tear.
You shouldn't be running Night Soul's in a deck with Lingering Souls and Dark Confidant. Where would you bring it in? Zealous persecution is powerful but I think for your deck, Damnnation takes priority. You're going to lose a lot more to Eldrazi than something like Affinity/ Infect. Opposing Lingering Souls can be annoying but 1 zealous persecution probably wouldn't solve that problem.
I'm not sure how well positioned Blood Moon is right now. It's 'okay' against some decks(e.g Scapeshift, Eldrazi, Tron, Burn,) Insane against matches we're already pretty good at. But I also know a Blood Moon Jund deck did really well recently so who am I to say?
Also, the Liliana the Last Hope doesn't look too great for this build due to a lack of synergy. I would expect more for 3-mana. Another Liliana of the Veil couldn't hurt. Overall, your list is well-tuned.