Any other cards we can use then to beat tron? I don't like some molten rains in the board... Finding that one or two copies that also just buy us one turn seems bad :/
I have been building this deck for a couple of weeks and compared my list to Gerry T's and made some changes based on what he was running.
Let me be very clear on how powerful Manamorphose is in this deck. It's essentially Street Wraith in this deck in allowing us to virtually run a 56 card deck. It also triggers Young Pyromancer, Prowess, and helps cast Bedlam Reveler once it's in the graveyard. I had times where playing 2 Manamorphose in the same turn, following it up with a removal spell was so good with Reveler and Peezy in play. I was only running 3 Manamorphose but I will be looking to add the 4th one, I think it is a very strong choice in this deck.
I also ran a 1-of Darkblast just to try it out. I didn't draw into it, but I saw plays where it would've been relevant. I plan on keeping it in for now as a 1-of.
Blood Moon performed well for me, but I am running 3 in the sideboard and 0 main deck. I am not convinced on main decking this card, yet. While it is extremely disruptive I couldn't justify it in every game 1 I play. I am also running 2 Fulminator Mage in the side board and brought in all 5 against Tron. Tron was the only game I tied in, and I seemingly blew out every one else I played against.
I know the guys I played against as well, these were all good players who have played for a long time and regularly top 8. Most of my games I felt like I never ran out of gas, and the deck just keeps coming.
Tron was a tough game, we were both playing very fast, but between the Moon's and Chalice's, we went back and forth for so long the game ended in time. I do think I truly over-sideboarded in this game. I was trying the new build for the first time and thought I wasn't taking any chances. I ended up over-sideboarding and I think it cost me the win. The match resulted in my only game loss of the evening, and was ruled a tie due to going into time.
My advice for playing this deck, despite who you are and how good you are: Don't sleep on Manamorphose in this deck. Try out at least 1-2 FNM with 4 Manamorphose main deck, and do not side them out. That card is so good in this deck. Alongside Faithless Looting you can just mill through your own deck and the Prowess/Peezy triggers are equally clutch. I was very hesitant towards playing it at first when I saw the 1-of in Gerry T's list. At the time I owned 3 copies, so I just stuffed all 3 in with high hopes. Now I am actively pursuing the 4th copy to run the playset main deck. Do not underestimate this card in this build. You always cast something behind it. So it will equal 2 Prowess or 2 Peezy triggers. It can fix your mana to hardcast Lingering Souls from your hand if you are missing the White source.
I am only running 8 creatures right now and it seems fine. I was considering Monastery Mentor prior to reading this thread, but after someone suggest looking at Hazoret the Fervent, I think I want to acquire a copy of this card. It fits the plan perfectly: direct damage to the face, discards spells for reveler, discards lingering souls, not to mention the 4cmc cost tops off our curve nicely. Kills Gurmag Angler, kills Reality Smasher, etc. I think Hazoret is a very justifiable 1-of. I am also considering running Gurmag myself. This deck fills the graveyard so fast, alongside Fetch Lands. You probably wouldn't want to, but I can foresee a turn 2 Gurmag in this deck as well with turn 1 Faithless Looting and figure it fits the plan since you are actively filling the graveyard in this deck. I am also running 1-of Darkblast and find the dredge relevant. It will fill the graveyard for Reveler and potentially Gurmag.
I guess you would cut one of everything, 1 discard spell, 1 removal, 1 bloodmoon
Not a chance. We run so few removal spells (only 4!) that cutting one is disastrous. Discard is one of our few good ways to handle other midrange decks. From Gerry T's list at the pro tour I'd move the maindeck liliana to the board (cutting 1 surgical extraction down to 2) and omitting blood moon for the myriad of reasons I've described before to make room for the extra 3 manamorphose, at least to test. Hazoret also seems good on paper, but I'm not sure if the attacking/blocking resriction is going to be too hard for us.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I guess you would cut one of everything, 1 discard spell, 1 removal, 1 bloodmoon
Not a chance. We run so few removal spells (only 4!) that cutting one is disastrous. Discard is one of our few good ways to handle other midrange decks. From Gerry T's list at the pro tour I'd move the maindeck liliana to the board (cutting 1 surgical extraction down to 2) and omitting blood moon for the myriad of reasons I've described before to make room for the extra 3 manamorphose, at least to test. Hazoret also seems good on paper, but I'm not sure if the attacking/blocking resriction is going to be too hard for us.
Only 4 removal spells? You are talking about the right deck?
Only 4 removal spells? You are talking about the right deck?
Discard in midrange attrition based matchups?
2 path, 1 terminate, 1 dreadbore. That's 4 by my count. Collective Brutality, Lightning bolt and Kolaghan's command are burn spells, you can't reliably kill anything relevant with them unless you're willing to 2-for-1 yourself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I am sorry but this is not a burn deck. If you threat Bolt as burn spell and threat this deck as an aggro deck, then I think you misinterpreted the deck.
Mardu is an attrition based deck and midrange deck at heart. Bolt here is a removal spell, and if you categorize the deck, those count as removal spells. Of course they can go to the face, but thats not what the primary use is for.
Jund also does not play bolt just to hit the opponent for 3, that would be incredibly bad, unless in those cases where it wins you the game.
Except for those cases, Bolt counts as removal spell.
CB is general considered as being a discard spell.
KCommand is a grindy card on its own, not necessary a removal spell, but also definitely not a burn spell like you call it.
I am surprized you say path. Unless you are running some different deck version I would not recommend runnin path. I would run 2 Terminate, 1 Dreadbore and 2 Push.
This all might sound like Hair-splitting, but the correct terminology should be used regarding all cards in a certain deck, especially in an open forum with newer players reading the content.
I'm not sure why I said path, I meant Fatal Push. The point I'm getting at is Bolt, KCommand, and CB should not count as removal spells as in most cases they cannot remove a creature on their own. Time and again I run into needing to hit a 4-outer to not die to a 4/5 goyf or a 4/4 grim flayer or an 8/8 death's shadow or a 10/11 inkmoth nexus, and getting rid of that one means I need to find the others when they play two more next turn. And more and more I'm seeing that while yes they do trigger young pyromancer, you have zero assurances of ever seeing one, let alone getting around to untapping with one to actually do something with. Almost equally infuriating is needing to cast a bedlam reveler to not die, and pitching potentially useful cards and drawing 3 lands - which happens a lot more than I'd care to admit.
I would really like to know what matchups everyone seems to be running into that are so favorable for this deck, because it's simply not fun for me to play when it rarely functions, and when it does function it gets eaten up by decks that do the same thing only better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
So I've been doing testing with the deck @FlyingDelver posted, and I've had a lot more success. Beating burn more regularly, beating other creature decks more consistently with Path main deck. Lili's really helping from the side (RIP wallet). I'm still really bad at sideboarding and that is what I am trying to improve on, but there are 2 things I want to take away from Gerry T's deck. l Manamorphose seems great. I'm not talking a 4-of, but just a 1-of seems really solid, but he cut a terminate for it. I'm hesitant to cut terminate for it, but what do people think about trying to get one in? Also his maindeck LOTV seems like a solid choice, but he basically did that over Hazoret. I'm torn on that because I like both, but Hazoret has done a lot of work. Overall, do you think LOTV and Manamorphose are worth a maindeck slot?
I'm not sure why I said path, I meant Fatal Push. The point I'm getting at is Bolt, KCommand, and CB should not count as removal spells as in most cases they cannot remove a creature on their own. Time and again I run into needing to hit a 4-outer to not die to a 4/5 goyf or a 4/4 grim flayer or an 8/8 death's shadow or a 10/11 inkmoth nexus, and getting rid of that one means I need to find the others when they play two more next turn. And more and more I'm seeing that while yes they do trigger young pyromancer, you have zero assurances of ever seeing one, let alone getting around to untapping with one to actually do something with. Almost equally infuriating is needing to cast a bedlam reveler to not die, and pitching potentially useful cards and drawing 3 lands - which happens a lot more than I'd care to admit.
I would really like to know what matchups everyone seems to be running into that are so favorable for this deck, because it's simply not fun for me to play when it rarely functions, and when it does function it gets eaten up by decks that do the same thing only better.
You basically described why Bolt is just not as good anymore as it used to be. You are right that Bolt does not kill everything as it used to back in the days (pre Push and Probe era). Its still functioning as a removal spell in the deck nevertheless.
I get your point, so what I can tell you, in midrange slang, that effect you described which affect different kinds of removal makes it so that we differentiate soft removal (Bolt, CB, KCommand) from hard removal (Terminate, Dreabore, Path), while all of that cards being classified as removal.
Concerning the recent history of bolt, I think that bolt is after all still not completely bad. It actually has been worse before. The whole story began when Push was printed and that made Bolt pretty much unplayable (unless you played Burn). Push killed everything and more that Bolt can and also cant. Since Push became vastly present, decks tried to dodge Push as best as possible, so delve creatures, go-wide strategies and noncreature strategies became popular. While Push is still great, Bolt became slightly better due to this. Otherwise it wouldnt make much sense that Mardu/Jeskai decks became good decks. Its not the fact that Bolt hits the face for 3. Its the fact that Bolt became better again. And up to this point, Bolt is actually the most played card in modern again. And thats not due to burn.
Its just that Humans, lots of Company deck running cmc3 creatures and noncreature strategies are good right now, where bolt is often times at least as good or maybe even better as Push.
So I've been doing testing with the deck @FlyingDelver posted, and I've had a lot more success. Beating burn more regularly, beating other creature decks more consistently with Path main deck. Lili's really helping from the side (RIP wallet). I'm still really bad at sideboarding and that is what I am trying to improve on, but there are 2 things I want to take away from Gerry T's deck. l Manamorphose seems great. I'm not talking a 4-of, but just a 1-of seems really solid, but he cut a terminate for it. I'm hesitant to cut terminate for it, but what do people think about trying to get one in? Also his maindeck LOTV seems like a solid choice, but he basically did that over Hazoret. I'm torn on that because I like both, but Hazoret has done a lot of work. Overall, do you think LOTV and Manamorphose are worth a maindeck slot?
I guess you mean Push?
Manamorphose is a card I really am interested in testing as well. I have yet to find a good way to include them maindeck. I am hesitant to cut any hard removal or Blood Moons from it, also Hazoret is a card I want to keep.
Yea I meant push, I was reading the other comments and had path on the mind woops. I totally agree on your point on Manamorphose, I really want to add to try it out but cutting something feels weird because I like so much of the deck. I haven't drawn Hazoret that much in my playtesting, so that's why my opinion of it might be less then yours, but I do like it. Was just pointing out that LOTV vs. Hazoret could be an argument, also that might explain why Gerry T was ok with going down 1 terminate because he brought in the edit effect from LOTV.
Yeah I figured that out. LoTV main basically "solves" that problem. However, I am yet hesitant to cut Hazoret, She has won me too many games at this point.
I cut 2 BM maindeck for the 2 Manamorphose and put 2 BMs into the SB in place of the Molten rains. Then I also added a third Fulminator for the third Liliana in the SB.
Maybe its okay to cut a land in order to add a nother Manamorphose, but I dont know about that actually. But I will try that out as well.
Yeah I figured that out. LoTV main basically "solves" that problem. However, I am yet hesitant to cut Hazoret, She has won me too many games at this point.
I cut 2 BM maindeck for the 2 Manamorphose and put 2 BMs into the SB in place of the Molten rains. Then I also added a third Fulminator for the third Liliana in the SB.
Maybe its okay to cut a land in order to add a nother Manamorphose, but I dont know about that actually. But I will try that out as well.
Do you think Fulminator Mage is better than Molten Rain?
I haven't tested the difference yet but my intuition is to play MR due to it effecting cost reduction and also helping out Young Peezy. However, I'm not sure how grindy the match ups are supposed to be in the mathes we are bringing the LD in.
Do you think Fulminator Mage is better than Molten Rain?
I haven't tested the difference yet but my intuition is to play MR due to it effecting cost reduction and also helping out Young Peezy. However, I'm not sure how grindy the match ups are supposed to be in the mathes we are bringing the LD in.
On one hand, molten rain triggers YP, triggers prowess, and cheapens bedlam reveler. It can also destroy basic lands to possibly deny a color. On the other side, Fulminator mage is another creature that can attack and block, and can be recurred with Kolaghan's Command.
Personally, I think the easier line to deal with troublesome lands is molten rain, potentially into surgical extraction in terms of tron or valakut. But if you need more early board pressure, fulminator isn't a bad call.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I think for the matchups I want landdestruction, Fulminator is better. A good reason is just KCommand. But Fulminator is also great vs midrange mirrors and control, where Molten Rain and Blood Moon are not really cards I want. Reason is that its a threat on its own, which can also attack and therefore not a potential bad topdeck.
These cards are all good against Tron:
With that being said, it’s still a bad matchup for any midrange deck.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I have been building this deck for a couple of weeks and compared my list to Gerry T's and made some changes based on what he was running.
Let me be very clear on how powerful Manamorphose is in this deck. It's essentially Street Wraith in this deck in allowing us to virtually run a 56 card deck. It also triggers Young Pyromancer, Prowess, and helps cast Bedlam Reveler once it's in the graveyard. I had times where playing 2 Manamorphose in the same turn, following it up with a removal spell was so good with Reveler and Peezy in play. I was only running 3 Manamorphose but I will be looking to add the 4th one, I think it is a very strong choice in this deck.
I also ran a 1-of Darkblast just to try it out. I didn't draw into it, but I saw plays where it would've been relevant. I plan on keeping it in for now as a 1-of.
Blood Moon performed well for me, but I am running 3 in the sideboard and 0 main deck. I am not convinced on main decking this card, yet. While it is extremely disruptive I couldn't justify it in every game 1 I play. I am also running 2 Fulminator Mage in the side board and brought in all 5 against Tron. Tron was the only game I tied in, and I seemingly blew out every one else I played against.
I know the guys I played against as well, these were all good players who have played for a long time and regularly top 8. Most of my games I felt like I never ran out of gas, and the deck just keeps coming.
Tron was a tough game, we were both playing very fast, but between the Moon's and Chalice's, we went back and forth for so long the game ended in time. I do think I truly over-sideboarded in this game. I was trying the new build for the first time and thought I wasn't taking any chances. I ended up over-sideboarding and I think it cost me the win. The match resulted in my only game loss of the evening, and was ruled a tie due to going into time.
My advice for playing this deck, despite who you are and how good you are: Don't sleep on Manamorphose in this deck. Try out at least 1-2 FNM with 4 Manamorphose main deck, and do not side them out. That card is so good in this deck. Alongside Faithless Looting you can just mill through your own deck and the Prowess/Peezy triggers are equally clutch. I was very hesitant towards playing it at first when I saw the 1-of in Gerry T's list. At the time I owned 3 copies, so I just stuffed all 3 in with high hopes. Now I am actively pursuing the 4th copy to run the playset main deck. Do not underestimate this card in this build. You always cast something behind it. So it will equal 2 Prowess or 2 Peezy triggers. It can fix your mana to hardcast Lingering Souls from your hand if you are missing the White source.
I am only running 8 creatures right now and it seems fine. I was considering Monastery Mentor prior to reading this thread, but after someone suggest looking at Hazoret the Fervent, I think I want to acquire a copy of this card. It fits the plan perfectly: direct damage to the face, discards spells for reveler, discards lingering souls, not to mention the 4cmc cost tops off our curve nicely. Kills Gurmag Angler, kills Reality Smasher, etc. I think Hazoret is a very justifiable 1-of. I am also considering running Gurmag myself. This deck fills the graveyard so fast, alongside Fetch Lands. You probably wouldn't want to, but I can foresee a turn 2 Gurmag in this deck as well with turn 1 Faithless Looting and figure it fits the plan since you are actively filling the graveyard in this deck. I am also running 1-of Darkblast and find the dredge relevant. It will fill the graveyard for Reveler and potentially Gurmag.
Not a chance. We run so few removal spells (only 4!) that cutting one is disastrous. Discard is one of our few good ways to handle other midrange decks. From Gerry T's list at the pro tour I'd move the maindeck liliana to the board (cutting 1 surgical extraction down to 2) and omitting blood moon for the myriad of reasons I've described before to make room for the extra 3 manamorphose, at least to test. Hazoret also seems good on paper, but I'm not sure if the attacking/blocking resriction is going to be too hard for us.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Only 4 removal spells? You are talking about the right deck?
Discard in midrange attrition based matchups?
2 path, 1 terminate, 1 dreadbore. That's 4 by my count. Collective Brutality, Lightning bolt and Kolaghan's command are burn spells, you can't reliably kill anything relevant with them unless you're willing to 2-for-1 yourself.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Mardu is an attrition based deck and midrange deck at heart. Bolt here is a removal spell, and if you categorize the deck, those count as removal spells. Of course they can go to the face, but thats not what the primary use is for.
Jund also does not play bolt just to hit the opponent for 3, that would be incredibly bad, unless in those cases where it wins you the game.
Except for those cases, Bolt counts as removal spell.
CB is general considered as being a discard spell.
KCommand is a grindy card on its own, not necessary a removal spell, but also definitely not a burn spell like you call it.
I am surprized you say path. Unless you are running some different deck version I would not recommend runnin path. I would run 2 Terminate, 1 Dreadbore and 2 Push.
This all might sound like Hair-splitting, but the correct terminology should be used regarding all cards in a certain deck, especially in an open forum with newer players reading the content.
I would really like to know what matchups everyone seems to be running into that are so favorable for this deck, because it's simply not fun for me to play when it rarely functions, and when it does function it gets eaten up by decks that do the same thing only better.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
You basically described why Bolt is just not as good anymore as it used to be. You are right that Bolt does not kill everything as it used to back in the days (pre Push and Probe era). Its still functioning as a removal spell in the deck nevertheless.
I get your point, so what I can tell you, in midrange slang, that effect you described which affect different kinds of removal makes it so that we differentiate soft removal (Bolt, CB, KCommand) from hard removal (Terminate, Dreabore, Path), while all of that cards being classified as removal.
Concerning the recent history of bolt, I think that bolt is after all still not completely bad. It actually has been worse before. The whole story began when Push was printed and that made Bolt pretty much unplayable (unless you played Burn). Push killed everything and more that Bolt can and also cant. Since Push became vastly present, decks tried to dodge Push as best as possible, so delve creatures, go-wide strategies and noncreature strategies became popular. While Push is still great, Bolt became slightly better due to this. Otherwise it wouldnt make much sense that Mardu/Jeskai decks became good decks. Its not the fact that Bolt hits the face for 3. Its the fact that Bolt became better again. And up to this point, Bolt is actually the most played card in modern again. And thats not due to burn.
Its just that Humans, lots of Company deck running cmc3 creatures and noncreature strategies are good right now, where bolt is often times at least as good or maybe even better as Push.
I guess you mean Push?
Manamorphose is a card I really am interested in testing as well. I have yet to find a good way to include them maindeck. I am hesitant to cut any hard removal or Blood Moons from it, also Hazoret is a card I want to keep.
I will try this version for now, going onward:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
Creatures [9]
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dreadbore
2 Manamorphose
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lingering Souls
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Wear // Tear
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Collective Brutality
I cut 2 BM maindeck for the 2 Manamorphose and put 2 BMs into the SB in place of the Molten rains. Then I also added a third Fulminator for the third Liliana in the SB.
Maybe its okay to cut a land in order to add a nother Manamorphose, but I dont know about that actually. But I will try that out as well.
Do you think Fulminator Mage is better than Molten Rain?
I haven't tested the difference yet but my intuition is to play MR due to it effecting cost reduction and also helping out Young Peezy. However, I'm not sure how grindy the match ups are supposed to be in the mathes we are bringing the LD in.
On one hand, molten rain triggers YP, triggers prowess, and cheapens bedlam reveler. It can also destroy basic lands to possibly deny a color. On the other side, Fulminator mage is another creature that can attack and block, and can be recurred with Kolaghan's Command.
Personally, I think the easier line to deal with troublesome lands is molten rain, potentially into surgical extraction in terms of tron or valakut. But if you need more early board pressure, fulminator isn't a bad call.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
So are we splashing one stomping ground for some elves?