@docp3584 I think it really depends on the specific Scapeshift deck you are facing and what you expect from them. And again, even if I do expect done creatures, I'd rather leave in a split of path/pact/pulse rather than just paths. Ramping them = not good.
2 in the top 32 is actually a good thing. It means we still have the element of surprise!
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Hey guys quick question, this is my current land base. My problem is that (for budget reasons I'm currently running 4 windswept and 2 verdant, rather than the other way around) how bad is that?
4x Marsh Flats
4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
1x Woodland Cemetary
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Shambling Vent
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
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“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
Hey guys quick question, this is my current land base. My problem is that (for budget reasons I'm currently running 4 windswept and 2 verdant, rather than the other way around) how bad is that?
4x Marsh Flats
4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
1x Woodland Cemetary
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Shambling Vent
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
You will be fine because you are running 4 Marsh Flats to make up for it. Me personally, I like fetching for a basic swamp T1 to get around blood moon/ save 2 life to not shock. My list runs 6 fetchlands that fetch for basic swamp and yours does as well.
Tldr; I wouldnt stress over it. Id rather get a 3rd/4tg goyf than 2 catacombs if youre under budget constraints.
Hey all here is my deck list
3 inquisition of kozilek
2 thought size
4 paths
4 goyf
4 voice of resurgence
2 scooze
3 abrupt decay
3 liliana
1 pulse
4 lingering souls
1 dismember
1 sorin solemn visitor
4 rhinos
1 bane slayer angle
SB is irrelevant to the question
Land is pretty standard
My question is I don't see many people running voice. It's great against jund, grix, and almost all U/X/X control match ups. I have done great against the mirror even though I lost it was due to top decks and my opponent getting better draws. Have people gave it an honest shot?? What is your take on it
Both of those cards are fine, and have their place in certain metas, but right now they aren't necessarily ideal.
Voice of Resurgence is good if you're expecting the mirror, or a lot of grindy decks, but it can be extremely underwhelming in many other matchups. In many cases, it's just a 2/2 that dies to spells our other creatures don't; part of the appeal of this deck is that none of our threats can be profitably bolted or Kommanded. Yes, we get a token, but the point is that Voice isn't always a must-answer threat.
Voice also really strains the mana. Basically, if you're playing voice, you're incentivized to play a few Birds of Paradise, up the number of Gavony Townships, and swing more toward "Little Kid" Abzan. Which is a great way to fight the mirror, but has a lot of weaknesses to other parts of the meta.
Similar story with Courser: it's good against certain archetypes, but it's slow and clunky against others. We have a crowded 3-drop slot as it is, and unless you expect a lot of grindy matchups, it's tough to justify squeezing it in over the many other options we already are interested in. Also, I really think Tasigur just embarrases Courser in most ways at this point.
If you're playing a Bob deck and want powerful permanents that are cheaper than Tasigur or Rhino for curve purposes, Courser is worth a good look. And if the mirror becomes popular like it was last year, or if you like G/W-based decks, Voice or Resurgence is a good card to build with. But at the moment, I think both of them are a little outclassed by the more streamlined options.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I'm a long time Abzan lover that is finally getting his playset of goyfs, and I'm trying to come up with the best 75. I've seen lists with 6 discard spells whether they are 3 iok /3 tseize or 4 iok /2 tseize, and some others going up to 7 discard spells mainboard. Everyone seems to agree on the 1x Duress in the sideboard.
I'm lacking enough experience with the deck to tell which is the correct number to try and always hit one in our intial seven but not getting to draw too many of them in the late game. What is your experience?
As a long time abzan player as well, I can safely tell you that mainboard 7 discards is the way to go now. 4 inquisition and 3 thoughtseize. If meta is more control heavy, I am not afraid to slot in a thoughtseize and a duress in my sideboard.
I main 5 hand deny 3 inquisition 2 Ts. We have a lot of agro in out Metta with the possibility of 2 tron decks and a few grixis delver decks. It really is a Meta call. Imo anyways
You also want to have discard into Goyf into Liliana as often as possible, as well as options for Scooze and Tasigur. Discard basically plays well with all of the rest of our deck. 6 is minimum. 8 can be excessive but called for in the right meta. 7 seems like the ideal starting point. Test your list and go from there.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I just saw a list with banslayer, 2.turns it turned the game of them with 4 life while fasing burn. I may make a slot, since I run resto anyway, I will replace
Yes you are indeed right, more I mull it over guess burn player would burn you out first. Though I think bane slayer could help against other mid grindy matches
Yeah, Baneslayer is a good 1-of curve topper if you really want to mess people up in grindier matchups (and hope they run out of removal), but it's not ideal against Burn. You'd still keep it in against Burn, but you wouldn't expect it to be relevant in most games. Either they crush us very quickly or we find a way to stabilize and then shut them out with a single Goyf or similar threat. Baneslayer would probably buy you a critical turn in like 30% of games, but the rest of the time it's going to be way too slow, and you'll have a better time casting Rhino or resolving another threat early while leaving up removal.
I'm still having trouble fitting in all the 3-drops and discard I want, while still debating the 25th land slot. I can't imagine finding room for something like Baneslayer at the moment in the maindeck. But it is still a helluva card. Sigarda strikes me as a better mirror-breaker in the board though.
Anyway, deck is finally sleeved. It's basically the list I referenced a few pages back with some very minor tweaks. I'll be playing it much more often starting next week, due to a shift in my schedule.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Card choices:
Golgari Charm: I originally had Disfigure in this slot, but I chose Golgari Charm because of the versatility it offers. It kills Eidolon of the Great Revel, Steel Overseer, Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch and if timed right, Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexus. The other modes are pretty useful in this meta also.
Languish: I'm still choosing between Languish and Flaying Tendrils. Languish is usually a one sided board wipe but 4 mana is a lot, Flaying Tendrils is good vs Abzan Company and Affinity but is bad vs Elves, Merfolk and Zoo. If my meta sees more Abzan Company and less Elves, Merfolk and Zoo, I can see replacing Languish with Flaying Tendrils.
Thought/opinions/suggestions on my 75 and sideboard plan?
I sometimes leave lili in vs affinity, depends on who I am playing. I also am playing primal command in side. Last 2 weekends my lgs has did 2x gpt a week. I played big zoo Saturday and junk Sunday. Top 8-Ed 3x of them. Two came from zoo and other junk. Zoo gave me undefeated till final round. Anyway all I saw was control and blue decks in the day junk got me top 8. Primal command was so great to play. Time walk and 7 life or search a big creature out.
Based on my testing against Affinity, Liliana of the Veil is at her best in pressuring the opponent when we have spirit tokens out. The Affinity player either wastes a Galvanic Blast to prevent a second edict after and initial edict or forces a trade with their Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexus, Vault Skirge with our spirit tokens. As long as we prevent Etched Champion from entering the battlefield, we're good. He's the only reason that I'm leaving in my Inquisition of Kozileks.
I've been testing Engineered Explosives in place of Golgari Charm , I've been very impressed. It kills what Golgari Charm kills and spares our tokens. I will continue to test it and report.
Based on my testing against Affinity, Liliana of the Veil is at her best in pressuring the opponent when we have spirit tokens out. The Affinity player either wastes a Galvanic Blast to prevent a second edict after and initial edict or forces a trade with their Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexus, Vault Skirge with our spirit tokens. As long as we prevent Etched Champion from entering the battlefield, we're good. He's the only reason that I'm leaving in my Inquisition of Kozileks.
I've been testing Engineered Explosives in place of Golgari Charm , I've been very impressed. It kills what Golgari Charm kills and spares our tokens. I will continue to test it and report.
My only comment on your list is that you might want to diversify your removal a little bit. 4 Decay and 4 Path seems a little clunky. Path is great, but ramping people is still not ideal for this deck, so I feel it should be used sparingly. We have so many options in black, so depending what your meta requires you could run Disfigure, Pact, or Dismember as the 4th path. Similarly, I feel like 4 Decay is a lot. But those are small gripes. If those numbers are working for you than no need to change it.
I do think EE is a great SB card in general, and probably covers just a couple more bases than Golgari Charm does. Ability to miss our own Spirits is nice, as is the extra insurance against stuff like Bogles and Fish. I generally consider my Damnation untouchable, but the 2nd/3rd sweeper to be less fixed. EE, Drown in Sorrow, Flaying Tendrils, Languish, or Golgari Charm all make a great 2nd option as your sweeper to cover different bases. Again, just choose based on what you expect.
I think Liliana can be fine against Affinity too, but you definitely don't want too many. Shaving one copy, especially on the draw, seems like a good idea if you can find something better to bring in.
I like discard against Affinity, as it's one of the few ways to stop a nut draw from killing you on turn 3. You also need something to start the curve, and without Lightning Bolt I think IoK is very helpful at giving us something to do early on against the faster decks. Sometimes it sucks when you draw the discard too late, or can't cast it at a relevant point, but I think it's worth it for having early interaction with them in most games. You gotta grow those goyfs somehow!
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Quick report on last night's games. I'm on Craig Krempels' list.
Round 1: Azorius Titan Control - Draw
G1 was pretty quick, I found beaters early and shrunk his hand with Lili.
G2 I was one turn short of Lili's ultimate (got bounced) and he bounced back.
G3 was endless
Round 2: BW Eldrazi - 1-2
G1 I kept a greedy hand thinking I might draw into lands and never did... Silly me.
G2 was quick. Had too many threats and cut his ramp with Fulminator Mage.
G3 took a while (hit time limit as well), eventually the threats got huge and I lost.
Round 3: Bring to Light Scapeshift - 2-0
G1 I mulligan to 5, start off with Inquisition and notice that his starting hand is pretty lame. I was on the play and quickly ramp to rhino. It gets cryptic bounced and I finally get some damage in with a ScOoze.
G2 I took out the decays and maelstrom pulse (seemed pretty bad vs Sakura Tribe and some Snapcaster Mages. Board in Kitchen Finks, Fulminators and Feed the Clan to stay in safe range for the 7 land scapeshift. I gambled with the paths and exiled a balloth to punch the damage in. Finally got a pretty huge clock of 10 damage a turn and closed the game. He was ramping fast, but never hit a significant threat on the top deck.
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MODERN GBR Jund Midrange GWU Bant Eldrazi UG UG Infect
I've been working toward putting a list together that I'm calling Bitter Abzan. I have only gotten a match in thus far, but I'm looking for thoughts on the more token-oriented strategy as well as what Abzan really looks to sideboard. I want to find a slot for Anguished Unmaking somewhere in the 75, but I'm not sure yet.
2 in the top 32 is actually a good thing. It means we still have the element of surprise!
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
4x Marsh Flats
4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
1x Woodland Cemetary
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Shambling Vent
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
You will be fine because you are running 4 Marsh Flats to make up for it. Me personally, I like fetching for a basic swamp T1 to get around blood moon/ save 2 life to not shock. My list runs 6 fetchlands that fetch for basic swamp and yours does as well.
Tldr; I wouldnt stress over it. Id rather get a 3rd/4tg goyf than 2 catacombs if youre under budget constraints.
3 inquisition of kozilek
2 thought size
4 paths
4 goyf
4 voice of resurgence
2 scooze
3 abrupt decay
3 liliana
1 pulse
4 lingering souls
1 dismember
1 sorin solemn visitor
4 rhinos
1 bane slayer angle
SB is irrelevant to the question
Land is pretty standard
My question is I don't see many people running voice. It's great against jund, grix, and almost all U/X/X control match ups. I have done great against the mirror even though I lost it was due to top decks and my opponent getting better draws. Have people gave it an honest shot?? What is your take on it
Its a good creature with nice body, give us card advantage and pumps goyf.
Grixis Delver RBU
Abzan BGW
Legacy
Elves GB
Abzan Deathblade BGW
Both of those cards are fine, and have their place in certain metas, but right now they aren't necessarily ideal.
Voice of Resurgence is good if you're expecting the mirror, or a lot of grindy decks, but it can be extremely underwhelming in many other matchups. In many cases, it's just a 2/2 that dies to spells our other creatures don't; part of the appeal of this deck is that none of our threats can be profitably bolted or Kommanded. Yes, we get a token, but the point is that Voice isn't always a must-answer threat.
Voice also really strains the mana. Basically, if you're playing voice, you're incentivized to play a few Birds of Paradise, up the number of Gavony Townships, and swing more toward "Little Kid" Abzan. Which is a great way to fight the mirror, but has a lot of weaknesses to other parts of the meta.
Similar story with Courser: it's good against certain archetypes, but it's slow and clunky against others. We have a crowded 3-drop slot as it is, and unless you expect a lot of grindy matchups, it's tough to justify squeezing it in over the many other options we already are interested in. Also, I really think Tasigur just embarrases Courser in most ways at this point.
If you're playing a Bob deck and want powerful permanents that are cheaper than Tasigur or Rhino for curve purposes, Courser is worth a good look. And if the mirror becomes popular like it was last year, or if you like G/W-based decks, Voice or Resurgence is a good card to build with. But at the moment, I think both of them are a little outclassed by the more streamlined options.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
As a long time abzan player as well, I can safely tell you that mainboard 7 discards is the way to go now. 4 inquisition and 3 thoughtseize. If meta is more control heavy, I am not afraid to slot in a thoughtseize and a duress in my sideboard.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I'm still having trouble fitting in all the 3-drops and discard I want, while still debating the 25th land slot. I can't imagine finding room for something like Baneslayer at the moment in the maindeck. But it is still a helluva card. Sigarda strikes me as a better mirror-breaker in the board though.
Anyway, deck is finally sleeved. It's basically the list I referenced a few pages back with some very minor tweaks. I'll be playing it much more often starting next week, due to a shift in my schedule.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
1x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hissing Quagmire
4x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Shambling Vent
1x Stirring Wildwood
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
Creature (13)
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Siege Rhino
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instant (8)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Path to Exile
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Damnation
1x Duress
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Languish
2x Painful Truths
2x Stony Silence
vs Burn
Out: 3x Thoughtseize, 2x Lingering Souls
In: 3x Kitchen Finks, 1x Duress, 1x Golgari Charm
vs Abzan Company
Out: 4x Inquisition of Kozilek, 3x Liliana of the Veil, 1x Lingering Souls
In: 2x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Duress, 1x Languish, 2x Painful Truths, 2x Fulminator Mage, 1x Damnation
vs Jund
Out: 4x Inquisition of Kozilek, 3x Thoughtseize, 1x Maelstrom Pulse
In: 3x Kitchen Finks, 2x Painful Truths, 2x Fulminator Mage, 1x Damnation
vs Affinity:
Out: 3x Thoughtseize, 3x Scavenging Ooze, 1x Siege Rhino
In: 2x Stony Silence, 2x Fulminator Mage, 1x Damnation, 1x Languish, 1x Golgari Charm
vs Infect
Out: 3x Scavenging Ooze, 2x Siege Rhino
In: 1x Duress, 1x Golgari Charm, 2x Fulminator Mage, 1x Languish
vs U/W/x Control
Out: 4x Abrupt Decay, 4x Siege Rhino
In: 1x Duress, 2x Painful Truths, 3x Kitchen Finks, 2x Fulminator Mage
Card choices:
Golgari Charm: I originally had Disfigure in this slot, but I chose Golgari Charm because of the versatility it offers. It kills Eidolon of the Great Revel, Steel Overseer, Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch and if timed right, Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexus. The other modes are pretty useful in this meta also.
Languish: I'm still choosing between Languish and Flaying Tendrils. Languish is usually a one sided board wipe but 4 mana is a lot, Flaying Tendrils is good vs Abzan Company and Affinity but is bad vs Elves, Merfolk and Zoo. If my meta sees more Abzan Company and less Elves, Merfolk and Zoo, I can see replacing Languish with Flaying Tendrils.
Thought/opinions/suggestions on my 75 and sideboard plan?
I've been testing Engineered Explosives in place of Golgari Charm , I've been very impressed. It kills what Golgari Charm kills and spares our tokens. I will continue to test it and report.
My only comment on your list is that you might want to diversify your removal a little bit. 4 Decay and 4 Path seems a little clunky. Path is great, but ramping people is still not ideal for this deck, so I feel it should be used sparingly. We have so many options in black, so depending what your meta requires you could run Disfigure, Pact, or Dismember as the 4th path. Similarly, I feel like 4 Decay is a lot. But those are small gripes. If those numbers are working for you than no need to change it.
I do think EE is a great SB card in general, and probably covers just a couple more bases than Golgari Charm does. Ability to miss our own Spirits is nice, as is the extra insurance against stuff like Bogles and Fish. I generally consider my Damnation untouchable, but the 2nd/3rd sweeper to be less fixed. EE, Drown in Sorrow, Flaying Tendrils, Languish, or Golgari Charm all make a great 2nd option as your sweeper to cover different bases. Again, just choose based on what you expect.
I think Liliana can be fine against Affinity too, but you definitely don't want too many. Shaving one copy, especially on the draw, seems like a good idea if you can find something better to bring in.
I like discard against Affinity, as it's one of the few ways to stop a nut draw from killing you on turn 3. You also need something to start the curve, and without Lightning Bolt I think IoK is very helpful at giving us something to do early on against the faster decks. Sometimes it sucks when you draw the discard too late, or can't cast it at a relevant point, but I think it's worth it for having early interaction with them in most games. You gotta grow those goyfs somehow!
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Round 1: Azorius Titan Control - Draw
G1 was pretty quick, I found beaters early and shrunk his hand with Lili.
G2 I was one turn short of Lili's ultimate (got bounced) and he bounced back.
G3 was endless
Round 2: BW Eldrazi - 1-2
G1 I kept a greedy hand thinking I might draw into lands and never did... Silly me.
G2 was quick. Had too many threats and cut his ramp with Fulminator Mage.
G3 took a while (hit time limit as well), eventually the threats got huge and I lost.
Round 3: Bring to Light Scapeshift - 2-0
G1 I mulligan to 5, start off with Inquisition and notice that his starting hand is pretty lame. I was on the play and quickly ramp to rhino. It gets cryptic bounced and I finally get some damage in with a ScOoze.
G2 I took out the decays and maelstrom pulse (seemed pretty bad vs Sakura Tribe and some Snapcaster Mages. Board in Kitchen Finks, Fulminators and Feed the Clan to stay in safe range for the 7 land scapeshift. I gambled with the paths and exiled a balloth to punch the damage in. Finally got a pretty huge clock of 10 damage a turn and closed the game. He was ramping fast, but never hit a significant threat on the top deck.
GBR Jund Midrange
GWU Bant Eldrazi
UG UG Infect
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Path to Exile
2x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Abzan Charm
Engines
3x Bitterblossom
2x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4x Lingering Souls
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Creatures
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Eternal Witness
3x Siege Rhino
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Temple Garden
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Shambling Vent
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Hissing Quagmire
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
1x Celestial Purge
1x Choke
1x Duress
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Leyline of the Void
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Stony Silence
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Wrath of God
Legacy: ANT, Death and Taxes
EDH: Jori En, Ruin Diver Fast Combo
Pauper: Affinity