Sorin is a beast, and easier to cast than Gideon, especially in the current climate of limited white. While it would seem win more on paper, slamming Sorin with a 4/5 Goyf down facing a Tasigur or Smasher and an iffy life total is game-changing. Played Sorin earlier this year when Burn was it's hottest and DS Jund was the thing, but now Stubborn Denial, Spell Pierce and even Negate and Glen Elendra are things and have wiped Gideon from my sideboards, and has me trading the Sorin/Gideon slot for Thragtusk.
Why don't more lists run Concealed Courtyard? Jund runs 4 Blackcleave Cliffs and usually only a couple Blooming Marshes. The mana needs of the decks seem identical if you equate red to white.
Why don't more lists run Concealed Courtyard? Jund runs 4 Blackcleave Cliffs and usually only a couple Blooming Marshes. The mana needs of the decks seem identical if you equate red to white.
Why don't more lists run Concealed Courtyard? Jund runs 4 Blackcleave Cliffs and usually only a couple Blooming Marshes. The mana needs of the decks seem identical if you equate red to white.
Jund wants R and B on turn-one. Junk doesn't need W on turn-one.
Played some straight BG last week, probably going to tweak the list a bit and play it again this week. I'll put it here, since the playstyle is still throughly Abzan, there's just no Lingering Souls, and I can't find anything in any of the competitive forums, or the first 5 pages of deck creation that's just pure BG to get discussion. Hopefully no one minds it here, since it was discussed a bit in the past couple pages.
The deck ran fine, but I had some trouble enabling Delirium. Path to Exile is real good at shutting down an early creature. I also would like one more removal spell, one more artifact, and one more non creature to return with Nissa. Therefore I think I want a single Walking Ballista as it's card types, self sacrifice, and removal. I like that it deals with Etched Champion and Mirran Crusader too. The cut for this is the 4th Ishkanah. Ishkanah is powerful, but 4 clogs the hand too much.
I would also like to work on the manabase some. The second Forest should probably either be another Treetop Village or a Hissing Quagmire.
Fulminator MB was an experiment, but with so much Delirium, it's an all star as a way to help get creatures into your GY without relying on the opponent to kill something.
A Kalitas package of 2 copies with a Slaughter Pact seems interesting too. That could work it's way into the SB.
Rancor continued to impress. The card beats all board stalls.
Oh Walking Ballista is interesting, synergizes with your Glissa too.
Let me know how that goes for you
I tried it today in some test games, and it went well. Going to try it for realizes at FNM this friday. Settled on the final land slot as being Hissing Quagmire instead of Treetop Village because it gets dirty with Rancor.
Based my list off of Hatto's from the GP, but I had to add more ways to shore up the burn matchup.
Beat 2 burn decks, 1 Affinity, lost a close 3rd game to the other Affinity player who had a turn 1 Seer. I wish there was some kind of catch-all terminate like spell. Go for the Throat looked bad for me tonight
Based my list off of Hatto's from the GP, but I had to add more ways to shore up the burn matchup.
Beat 2 burn decks, 1 Affinity, lost a close 3rd game to the other Affinity player who had a turn 1 Seer. I wish there was some kind of catch-all terminate like spell. Go for the Throat looked bad for me tonight
How many Abrupt Decay are you running? Based on your matchup report it would have acted as a 2 mana destroy any non-land permanent.
A few questions:
Why only 2 Fatal Push? Why no Maelstrom Pulse? Is Fulminator really MB material in your meta? And the GQs in the board seem a little redundant. Dark Betrayal seems a little narrow, and what matchups are you bringing in Bitterblossom? No Damnation?
Based my list off of Hatto's from the GP, but I had to add more ways to shore up the burn matchup.
Beat 2 burn decks, 1 Affinity, lost a close 3rd game to the other Affinity player who had a turn 1 Seer. I wish there was some kind of catch-all terminate like spell. Go for the Throat looked bad for me tonight
I really like his list actually. Though I wonder how the deck does against Etron without paths.
Based my list off of Hatto's from the GP, but I had to add more ways to shore up the burn matchup.
Beat 2 burn decks, 1 Affinity, lost a close 3rd game to the other Affinity player who had a turn 1 Seer. I wish there was some kind of catch-all terminate like spell. Go for the Throat looked bad for me tonight
Perhaps 1 dismember and 1 victim of the night. You can put a lilianas defeat in the SB to replace victim in its bad matchups
Running Dismember in any GBx deck just seems like an awful idea, that card is meant for other decks and archetypes. Lillian's defeat is way too narrow, I hate playing narrow cards in the board.
Even with all those Finks and CB's the matchup against both burn players felt close, I wonder if Hatto dodged burn, because his original list seems atrocious against a very popular matchup that you will always see a ton of in large tournaments and FNM's, due to being a cheaper pillar modern deck.
Surgical seems like such a "gotcha card" and I wouldn't be sad to remove that.
Running Dismember in any GBx deck just seems like an awful idea, that card is meant for other decks and archetypes. Lillian's defeat is way too narrow, I hate playing narrow cards in the board.
Even with all those Finks and CB's the matchup against both burn players felt close, I wonder if Hatto dodged burn, because his original list seems atrocious against a very popular matchup that you will always see a ton of in large tournaments and FNM's, due to being a cheaper pillar modern deck.
Surgical seems like such a "gotcha card" and I wouldn't be sad to remove that.
I like how you designed the deck. Very easy to side in and out cards in the deck to upgrade the matchups.
What do you like about Kalitas in this format?
Are you not a fan of Lilly the last hope?
What do you think about scavenging grounds? This is the most curious card in the list since it hits our goys, witness, and ramunap and Lilly the lost hope if your playing it. I guess it's great in matchups where you need the hate.
I have found the ramunap excavator to be very strong when I want to grind or against the big mana decks. Hatto must have been focused on these decks.
I also believe he lost to burn in the finals which still seems difficult to believe with all the lifegain.
Sol Malka and Reid Duke swear by 4 inquisition and 2 Thoughtseize. Sol plays 2 duress in the SB which I have found very good.
Interested in what are your thougts on Nissa Vital Force. She seems underwhelming but maybe you can convince me !
I just wanted to try it, and it hasn't been horrible. The local meta has a good bit of Mirran Crusader and Nissa helps deal with it. I was actually able to beat a D&T deck the other day that pulled 3 Mirran Crusaders in a row. It was a long drawn out game with board stalls but the CA in this deck, combined with Nissa being able to threaten colorless blockers made a big difference.
It could probably be another card if you're looking to lower the curve, but I play this Nissa in Legacy so I thought it could probably cut it here too. With so many permanents, the -3 mode is quite useful.
I was finding that Eternal was basically a 4 drop, and the aggressive creatures really needed some help; it's not that I love Kalitas. I'm guessing Sol Malka is Edward40Hands on MTGO, since I see that name a ton on Rock with the same exact list as Sol.
Scavenging Grounds has been alright, I've used it a few times against Storm on MTGO. Sometimes this deck has too much colorless though, which can get awkward. Last night I GQd my own lands multiple times to get clues for Tireless and fixing my mana.
Last Hope is so much worse than LOTV, LOTV is way higher in the power level scale, and since this deck isn't running paths or terminates I want more ways to kill fatties. I haven't tested Hope in a list in a while, the only issue is when she's bad, she's god awful bad. LOTV is rarely that awful.
Rumumap was just overkill, replaced him with Thrun with blue being more popular
Duress in the SB nowadays seems so silly, CB is just way more flexible, which helps for burn, company, combo, etc.
I wouldn't be opposed to 4 IOK, 2 Thoughtseize with 4x Bobs being so bad against burn decks.
I'm pretty sure Reid wrote that CB pretty much replaced duress for him in almost all situations.
I'll keep testing.
Bobzan looks like a good idea for GBx players to try aa well, may be where the deck is heading. Flayer is better in a meta where people don't want to interact, I think he's in a bad spot right now
I was finding that Eternal was basically a 4 drop, and the aggressive creatures really needed some help; it's not that I love Kalitas. I'm guessing Sol Malka is Edward40Hands on MTGO, since I see that name a ton on Rock with the same exact list as Sol.
Scavenging Grounds has been alright, I've used it a few times against Storm on MTGO. Sometimes this deck has too much colorless though, which can get awkward. Last night I GQd my own lands multiple times to get clues for Tireless and fixing my mana.
Last Hope is so much worse than LOTV, LOTV is way higher in the power level scale, and since this deck isn't running paths or terminates I want more ways to kill fatties. I haven't tested Hope in a list in a while, the only issue is when she's bad, she's god awful bad. LOTV is rarely that awful.
Rumumap was just overkill, replaced him with Thrun with blue being more popular
Duress in the SB nowadays seems so silly, CB is just way more flexible, which helps for burn, company, combo, etc.
I wouldn't be opposed to 4 IOK, 2 Thoughtseize with 4x Bobs being so bad against burn decks.
I'm pretty sure Reid wrote that CB pretty much replaced duress for him in almost all situations.
I'll keep testing.
Bobzan looks like a good idea for GBx players to try aa well, may be where the deck is heading. Flayer is better in a meta where people don't want to interact, I think he's in a bad spot right now
Thanks for the quick reply. How do you feel about 23 lands?
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Bolt on turn 1 is fine, Path not so much.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Jund wants R and B on turn-one. Junk doesn't need W on turn-one.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Here's what I played:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Treetop Village
2 Swamp
2 Forest
Creatures 20
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Fulminator Mage
4 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Enchantment 1
1 Rancor
Spells 17
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
Artifact 2
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dark Betrayal
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Bitterblossom
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Creeping Corrosion
The deck ran fine, but I had some trouble enabling Delirium. Path to Exile is real good at shutting down an early creature. I also would like one more removal spell, one more artifact, and one more non creature to return with Nissa. Therefore I think I want a single Walking Ballista as it's card types, self sacrifice, and removal. I like that it deals with Etched Champion and Mirran Crusader too. The cut for this is the 4th Ishkanah. Ishkanah is powerful, but 4 clogs the hand too much.
I would also like to work on the manabase some. The second Forest should probably either be another Treetop Village or a Hissing Quagmire.
Fulminator MB was an experiment, but with so much Delirium, it's an all star as a way to help get creatures into your GY without relying on the opponent to kill something.
A Kalitas package of 2 copies with a Slaughter Pact seems interesting too. That could work it's way into the SB.
Rancor continued to impress. The card beats all board stalls.
Let me know how that goes for you
We plays too much non-creature spells to play Thalia GoT... It make half of our deck cost 1 mana more
I tried it today in some test games, and it went well. Going to try it for realizes at FNM this friday. Settled on the final land slot as being Hissing Quagmire instead of Treetop Village because it gets dirty with Rancor.
Here's what I'm looking at.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Treetop Village
1 Hissing Quagmire
2 Swamp
1 Forest
Creatures 20
1 Walking Ballista
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
2 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Enchantment 1
1 Rancor
Spells 12
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
Artifact 2
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Collective Brutality
1 Dark Betrayal
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Bitterblossom
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Creeping Corrosion
It's a little unfortunate that Kalitas blanks Glissa's ability, but that's fine since that ability isn't why she's being played.
Based my list off of Hatto's from the GP, but I had to add more ways to shore up the burn matchup.
Beat 2 burn decks, 1 Affinity, lost a close 3rd game to the other Affinity player who had a turn 1 Seer. I wish there was some kind of catch-all terminate like spell. Go for the Throat looked bad for me tonight
How many Abrupt Decay are you running? Based on your matchup report it would have acted as a 2 mana destroy any non-land permanent.
Why only 2 Fatal Push? Why no Maelstrom Pulse? Is Fulminator really MB material in your meta? And the GQs in the board seem a little redundant. Dark Betrayal seems a little narrow, and what matchups are you bringing in Bitterblossom? No Damnation?
I really like his list actually. Though I wonder how the deck does against Etron without paths.
Perhaps 1 dismember and 1 victim of the night. You can put a lilianas defeat in the SB to replace victim in its bad matchups
What are the differences in your 75 than Hattos?
My list was
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Swamp
2x Forest
4x Blooming Marsh
3x Hissing Quagmire
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Scavenger Grounds
Creature (16)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
3x Fatal Push
2x Collective Brutality
1x Go For the Throat
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Collective Brutality
2x Flaying Tendrils
1x Damnation
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Fulminator Mage
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
Even with all those Finks and CB's the matchup against both burn players felt close, I wonder if Hatto dodged burn, because his original list seems atrocious against a very popular matchup that you will always see a ton of in large tournaments and FNM's, due to being a cheaper pillar modern deck.
Surgical seems like such a "gotcha card" and I wouldn't be sad to remove that.
2 Black: Destroy target non-merfolk creature
Seems exciting, not like merfolk has the same issue like Victim of the Night or Go for the Throat being such highly played decks.
Edit: Nevermind, it's sorcery speed, I lost all excitement for the card.
I like how you designed the deck. Very easy to side in and out cards in the deck to upgrade the matchups.
What do you like about Kalitas in this format?
Are you not a fan of Lilly the last hope?
What do you think about scavenging grounds? This is the most curious card in the list since it hits our goys, witness, and ramunap and Lilly the lost hope if your playing it. I guess it's great in matchups where you need the hate.
I have found the ramunap excavator to be very strong when I want to grind or against the big mana decks. Hatto must have been focused on these decks.
I also believe he lost to burn in the finals which still seems difficult to believe with all the lifegain.
Sol Malka and Reid Duke swear by 4 inquisition and 2 Thoughtseize. Sol plays 2 duress in the SB which I have found very good.
I just wanted to try it, and it hasn't been horrible. The local meta has a good bit of Mirran Crusader and Nissa helps deal with it. I was actually able to beat a D&T deck the other day that pulled 3 Mirran Crusaders in a row. It was a long drawn out game with board stalls but the CA in this deck, combined with Nissa being able to threaten colorless blockers made a big difference.
It could probably be another card if you're looking to lower the curve, but I play this Nissa in Legacy so I thought it could probably cut it here too. With so many permanents, the -3 mode is quite useful.
Scavenging Grounds has been alright, I've used it a few times against Storm on MTGO. Sometimes this deck has too much colorless though, which can get awkward. Last night I GQd my own lands multiple times to get clues for Tireless and fixing my mana.
Last Hope is so much worse than LOTV, LOTV is way higher in the power level scale, and since this deck isn't running paths or terminates I want more ways to kill fatties. I haven't tested Hope in a list in a while, the only issue is when she's bad, she's god awful bad. LOTV is rarely that awful.
Rumumap was just overkill, replaced him with Thrun with blue being more popular
Duress in the SB nowadays seems so silly, CB is just way more flexible, which helps for burn, company, combo, etc.
I wouldn't be opposed to 4 IOK, 2 Thoughtseize with 4x Bobs being so bad against burn decks.
I'm pretty sure Reid wrote that CB pretty much replaced duress for him in almost all situations.
I'll keep testing.
Bobzan looks like a good idea for GBx players to try aa well, may be where the deck is heading. Flayer is better in a meta where people don't want to interact, I think he's in a bad spot right now
Thanks for the quick reply. How do you feel about 23 lands?