Bump in the Night (B)
Sorcery
Target opponent loses 3 life. [AUGH YEAHHHH!]
Flashback 5{R} [Lol, never being cast]
So, a Lava Spike in black. How bad would it be to splash black via fetches and Blood Crypts to take advantage of this? Maybe throw in Searing Blaze as SUPER INCINERATE that will be a total blank in 35.768% of matchups (this is a very scientific number, okay) and Blightning if you feel like a real lucky punk.
splash just for 1 card? at most 2 cards? If you get mana screwed in anyway in burn, you lose. It looked interesting enough i suppose.
Black offers Burn Dark Confidant, Bump in the Night, and sideboard options such as Thoughtseize and Smother. It would require some additional testing, but I think that splashing black is a really strong idea to give some dimension to burn.
Black offers Burn Dark Confidant, Bump in the Night, and sideboard options such as Thoughtseize and Smother. It would require some additional testing, but I think that splashing black is a really strong idea to give some dimension to burn.
-ktkenshinx-
I completely agree. Burn's biggest problem is running out of gas. Dark Confidant refuels your hand and Black kill spells keep you alive long enough to draw more burn. I like Dark Confidant here.
dark confidant would be alot better than some of the "worse" burn spells i see in alot of these lists.. and bump in the night could replace another 4 of those bad spells.
problem is, as OP explained, a late-game topdeck confidant is probably going to be the final nail in the coffin.
the summary being that burn decks are kind of bad? it appears so.
just feels like it's going to move away from the actual "burn" of the deck. Think about this, turn 2 you put down bob, you get at most 3 cards, pretty much, on turns 3, 4 and 5, at the expanse of your life. Why not do something like manamorphose, that cost no mana and gets you a card, or some of the god aweful draw cards red modern has to offer... what about just not splash black and be okay with a bad deck?
just feels like it's going to move away from the actual "burn" of the deck. Think about this, turn 2 you put down bob, you get at most 3 cards, pretty much, on turns 3, 4 and 5, at the expanse of your life. Why not do something like manamorphose, that cost no mana and gets you a card, or some of the god aweful draw cards red modern has to offer... what about just not splash black and be okay with a bad deck?
The amount of failure in this thread is astounding.
1) Bob is card advantage. Manamorphous is not.
2) Bob will not live. At all. The deck is built to make the opponent sit there with dead removal, and throwing Bob out there means they have all that stacking up removal for him.
Burn is more of a meta or anti meta deck. In a meta full of slower control variants and/or aggro decks, it can do pretty well. In a meta full of fast combo, not so well. This has always been the premise of legacy burn.
Bump in the night seems worth a shot, but the only other black card I would even consider running is not dark confidant, it's anathemancer. yes, it's no price of progress, but it sure can do some damage to a lot of those unprepared opponents.
The amount of failure in this thread is astounding.
1) Bob is card advantage. Manamorphous is not.
2) Bob will not live. At all. The deck is built to make the opponent sit there with dead removal, and throwing Bob out there means they have all that stacking up removal for him.
1) Bob is on average, 1 card advantage that cost 2 mana and damage yourself. Manamorphose is no mana cost, no card advantage, you turn manamorphose into what you hope to god is Lightning bolt. I'm not saying im for manamorphose, I'm saying in this case, Bob is no good.
2) I agree, i think the creature removal wont be used on Bob, it will probably be used on goblin guide. No matter, just burn burn burn.
If I remember right, there cards that say double non combat damage too? Surly they might be good.
Isochron Scepter turns the most effective cards in the deck into less effective cards that requires you to have put it down turn 2 to make it even worth it, you turn 2 cards to at most 2 cards. You put it down turn 2 at the expanse of 2 cards, and you use it turns 3 and 4, and then the game is supposed to have ended. So at most you get a 1 card advantage, also you can only imprint instants, so.... and it just feels like there's nothing you can imprint that's worth it, other than something like manamorphose, which isnt really good in the deck anyways...
The price is right cannot be used in modern, yeah we know... we wish it could be used in modern...
Mirari is basically the same thing is Isochron scepter, you not gonna have extra 3 mana for you to copy things, you see turn 4, and you cast lightning bolt and you copy it for 3... yeah not good.
Ball Lightning was only really good in burn when ext burn wasnt dead. think about it, you get a ratio of 3 mana to 6 damage at most, which is not bad, but certainly not great. You cant block with it, it doesnt really do anything other than damage... not good.
Panoptic Mirror is a worse version of isochron scepter
Izzet Guildmage is a worse version of isochron scepter
Reiterate: wow i didnt know this card existed, interesting.... but no this is a worse version of isochron scepter
2) Bob will not live. At all. The deck is built to make the opponent sit there with dead removal, and throwing Bob out there means they have all that stacking up removal for him.
Burn does run creatures. Goblin Guide, Hellspark Elemental, and Spark Elemental are all very legitimate removal targets for an opposing player (Marauders is not, so I don't really mention him). Opponents do not reliably have removal, and that could give a window for Confidant to succeed.
Even if Bob is not included, the black splash is still worth it for Bump In The Night and for sideboard Thoughtseize and/or Inquisition of Kozilek. It is also good for some hard removal to deal with problematic creatures like Deceiver Exarch or Rhox War Monk. This versatility could elevate Burn from a gimmicky deck to a partially gimmicky deck.
Bump in the night allows you to run up to 20 spells that deal 3 for 1 mana. That's solid.
Bob seems like a high risk/high reward play. If you drop him on turn 2 and he lives for 2-3 turns, you probably drew enough gas to end the game. Burn's problem has always been stalling out when you need the last 1-2 burn spells to end it. Of course, the inherent problem with Bob is that he's not a burn spell. Every non-damage draw in this deck is basically timewalking yourself. Therefore, in order for Bob to be worth his draw, he needs to either live for 2 turns, or get at least one attack in. Against some decks, this may be a viable possibility. Against others, it may not.
Anathemancer seems inferior to Molten Rain. I'd rather do 2 and set them back a turn, than have the possibility of doing 3-4. Many people fetch basics against burn to avoid damage from shock lands in the early turns.
I don't see the point of running discard or removal in burn. As I said, I have found that if you are going to draw a non-damage spell, it better be game-winning (ie, Blood Moon vs. Cloudpost). If you want removal for Exarch or War Monk, run Flame Javelin.
What do you guys think about Blightning? Most burn decks run Javelin or Flame of the Bloodhand. Losing 1 damage at the 3cc spot to force a discard 2 seems solid; the only caveat is that I'm usually trying to win the game before they empty their hand anyway. Although it seems amazing in the mirror, or against fast aggro decks like Zoo where racing them while reducing their last salvo of pressure would be relevant.
If I run the black splash, it will be to swap out Incinerate (or Magma Jet if you run it) for Bump, and Flame of the Bloodhand for Blightning.
Bob might be something I'd put in the board, to bring in against decks which can stall us out with lifegain or countermagic.
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WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
One of the big problems with Quenchable Fire is that blue decks are so darn prevalent in Modern. Basically every combo is blue-based, or at least 5 colors, which means your 4 mana for 6 damage spell becomes a terrible Lightning Bolt. Most control and midrange decks run blue as well, and even aggro (Affinity with Thoughtcast and Tezz, and Zoo with Bant Charm and Unified Will) are also running blue mana. This makes Quenchable Fire a lot less viable.
The mana cost is also a problem. Burn needs to curve out damage at roughly the following rate in order to be competitive.
Turn 1: Spark Elemental (3) (17)
Turn 2: Lava Spike, Rift Bolt (6) (11)
Turn 3: Lightning Bolt, Shard Volley, Bump In The Night (9) (2)
Or viewed more simply:
Turn 1: Bolt for 3
Turn 2: Bolt for 3, Bolt for 3
Turn 3: Bolt for 3, Bolt for 3, Bolt for 3
In this case, "Bolt" could be as simple as Lava Spike/Lightning Bolt/Rift Bolt/Bump In The Night, or a creature-based damage system like Hellspark Elemental or Spark Elemental. Quenchable Fire does not fit very well into this theoretical framework, because Burn needs to maximize its 1 for 3 damage effects to stay competitive. Even with a little variation, the opponent needs to be at single digit life totals by turn 3. At that point, you need to be in topdeck mode where anything will kill an opponent, and Quenchable Fire just is not very economic by that metric.
Burn does run creatures. Goblin Guide, Hellspark Elemental, and Spark Elemental are all very legitimate removal targets for an opposing player (Marauders is not, so I don't really mention him). Opponents do not reliably have removal, and that could give a window for Confidant to succeed.
Honestly, you aren't really getting much value from killing these guys. Guide gets walled by a lot of opposing threats after his first few uses (but he is worth running BECAUSE of these few hits he gets), and Hellspark just comes back with a vengeance.
Guys, I've been playing with a modified burn deck I call "Quest Deck Wins". It's not as competitive as a pure burn deck, but it's really fun to play with (maybe the deck I have the most fun playing ever).
Here's the thread I created for it, please feel free to comment and use it: Quest Deck Wins
But you also can take the Quests out, add something more consistent (Shrine, Hero, Dragonlord), swap some creatures for better ones or more burn (Flames of Blood Hand, Arc Trail etc) and get a more "serious" version.
Otherwise you play that one and get to deal 18 damage with 3 mana (Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike and suspended Rift Bolt).
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Sorcery
Target opponent loses 3 life. [AUGH YEAHHHH!]
Flashback 5{R} [Lol, never being cast]
So, a Lava Spike in black. How bad would it be to splash black via fetches and Blood Crypts to take advantage of this? Maybe throw in Searing Blaze as SUPER INCINERATE that will be a total blank in 35.768% of matchups (this is a very scientific number, okay) and Blightning if you feel like a real lucky punk.
Bad idea...or terrible idea?
Black offers Burn Dark Confidant, Bump in the Night, and sideboard options such as Thoughtseize and Smother. It would require some additional testing, but I think that splashing black is a really strong idea to give some dimension to burn.
-ktkenshinx-
I completely agree. Burn's biggest problem is running out of gas. Dark Confidant refuels your hand and Black kill spells keep you alive long enough to draw more burn. I like Dark Confidant here.
problem is, as OP explained, a late-game topdeck confidant is probably going to be the final nail in the coffin.
the summary being that burn decks are kind of bad? it appears so.
:symu::symr::symg: ANIMAR :symu::symr::symg:
The amount of failure in this thread is astounding.
1) Bob is card advantage. Manamorphous is not.
2) Bob will not live. At all. The deck is built to make the opponent sit there with dead removal, and throwing Bob out there means they have all that stacking up removal for him.
Bump in the night seems worth a shot, but the only other black card I would even consider running is not dark confidant, it's anathemancer. yes, it's no price of progress, but it sure can do some damage to a lot of those unprepared opponents.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
1) Bob is on average, 1 card advantage that cost 2 mana and damage yourself. Manamorphose is no mana cost, no card advantage, you turn manamorphose into what you hope to god is Lightning bolt. I'm not saying im for manamorphose, I'm saying in this case, Bob is no good.
2) I agree, i think the creature removal wont be used on Bob, it will probably be used on goblin guide. No matter, just burn burn burn.
If I remember right, there cards that say double non combat damage too? Surly they might be good.
Isochron Scepter turns the most effective cards in the deck into less effective cards that requires you to have put it down turn 2 to make it even worth it, you turn 2 cards to at most 2 cards. You put it down turn 2 at the expanse of 2 cards, and you use it turns 3 and 4, and then the game is supposed to have ended. So at most you get a 1 card advantage, also you can only imprint instants, so.... and it just feels like there's nothing you can imprint that's worth it, other than something like manamorphose, which isnt really good in the deck anyways...
The price is right cannot be used in modern, yeah we know... we wish it could be used in modern...
Mirari is basically the same thing is Isochron scepter, you not gonna have extra 3 mana for you to copy things, you see turn 4, and you cast lightning bolt and you copy it for 3... yeah not good.
Ball Lightning was only really good in burn when ext burn wasnt dead. think about it, you get a ratio of 3 mana to 6 damage at most, which is not bad, but certainly not great. You cant block with it, it doesnt really do anything other than damage... not good.
Panoptic Mirror is a worse version of isochron scepter
Izzet Guildmage is a worse version of isochron scepter
Reiterate: wow i didnt know this card existed, interesting.... but no this is a worse version of isochron scepter
Koth sees action 1 turn, and the game is over.
Burn does run creatures. Goblin Guide, Hellspark Elemental, and Spark Elemental are all very legitimate removal targets for an opposing player (Marauders is not, so I don't really mention him). Opponents do not reliably have removal, and that could give a window for Confidant to succeed.
Even if Bob is not included, the black splash is still worth it for Bump In The Night and for sideboard Thoughtseize and/or Inquisition of Kozilek. It is also good for some hard removal to deal with problematic creatures like Deceiver Exarch or Rhox War Monk. This versatility could elevate Burn from a gimmicky deck to a partially gimmicky deck.
-ktkenshinx-
Bob seems like a high risk/high reward play. If you drop him on turn 2 and he lives for 2-3 turns, you probably drew enough gas to end the game. Burn's problem has always been stalling out when you need the last 1-2 burn spells to end it. Of course, the inherent problem with Bob is that he's not a burn spell. Every non-damage draw in this deck is basically timewalking yourself. Therefore, in order for Bob to be worth his draw, he needs to either live for 2 turns, or get at least one attack in. Against some decks, this may be a viable possibility. Against others, it may not.
Anathemancer seems inferior to Molten Rain. I'd rather do 2 and set them back a turn, than have the possibility of doing 3-4. Many people fetch basics against burn to avoid damage from shock lands in the early turns.
I don't see the point of running discard or removal in burn. As I said, I have found that if you are going to draw a non-damage spell, it better be game-winning (ie, Blood Moon vs. Cloudpost). If you want removal for Exarch or War Monk, run Flame Javelin.
What do you guys think about Blightning? Most burn decks run Javelin or Flame of the Bloodhand. Losing 1 damage at the 3cc spot to force a discard 2 seems solid; the only caveat is that I'm usually trying to win the game before they empty their hand anyway. Although it seems amazing in the mirror, or against fast aggro decks like Zoo where racing them while reducing their last salvo of pressure would be relevant.
If I run the black splash, it will be to swap out Incinerate (or Magma Jet if you run it) for Bump, and Flame of the Bloodhand for Blightning.
Bob might be something I'd put in the board, to bring in against decks which can stall us out with lifegain or countermagic.
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RSquee, Value NabobR
One of the big problems with Quenchable Fire is that blue decks are so darn prevalent in Modern. Basically every combo is blue-based, or at least 5 colors, which means your 4 mana for 6 damage spell becomes a terrible Lightning Bolt. Most control and midrange decks run blue as well, and even aggro (Affinity with Thoughtcast and Tezz, and Zoo with Bant Charm and Unified Will) are also running blue mana. This makes Quenchable Fire a lot less viable.
The mana cost is also a problem. Burn needs to curve out damage at roughly the following rate in order to be competitive.
Turn 1: Spark Elemental (3) (17)
Turn 2: Lava Spike, Rift Bolt (6) (11)
Turn 3: Lightning Bolt, Shard Volley, Bump In The Night (9) (2)
Or viewed more simply:
Turn 1: Bolt for 3
Turn 2: Bolt for 3, Bolt for 3
Turn 3: Bolt for 3, Bolt for 3, Bolt for 3
In this case, "Bolt" could be as simple as Lava Spike/Lightning Bolt/Rift Bolt/Bump In The Night, or a creature-based damage system like Hellspark Elemental or Spark Elemental. Quenchable Fire does not fit very well into this theoretical framework, because Burn needs to maximize its 1 for 3 damage effects to stay competitive. Even with a little variation, the opponent needs to be at single digit life totals by turn 3. At that point, you need to be in topdeck mode where anything will kill an opponent, and Quenchable Fire just is not very economic by that metric.
-ktkenshinx-
i will test it some more, as far as creatures is concerned, it's currently guides, mudbrawlers, and fire slingers
the 12 creatures in total is enough to let nades do the job if nades ever shows up.
Honestly, you aren't really getting much value from killing these guys. Guide gets walled by a lot of opposing threats after his first few uses (but he is worth running BECAUSE of these few hits he gets), and Hellspark just comes back with a vengeance.
Here's the thread I created for it, please feel free to comment and use it: Quest Deck Wins
not that modern burn is not already gimmicks.
Currently I really like goblin nades.
But you also can take the Quests out, add something more consistent (Shrine, Hero, Dragonlord), swap some creatures for better ones or more burn (Flames of Blood Hand, Arc Trail etc) and get a more "serious" version.
Otherwise you play that one and get to deal 18 damage with 3 mana (Lightning Bolt, Lava Spike and suspended Rift Bolt).