This is the mananbase I use for my Living End build.
Blood Moon on the draw is not suprising, because the opponent can have fetch/basics and play around it. On the play it is strong, especially turn 2 with SSG.
If you have Verdant then it is the best fetch to have for Blood Moon stratedgy, since it can fetch you the forest you need to cast Outburst easier.
Hm interesting, my initial mock up of the manabase is quite similar except I have access to 4 verdants and also playing a single godless shrine and kessig wolf run. On the creature side, I have 2 pale recluse as well and thinking of taking the extra recluse and turning it into a twisted abomination.
Have you had any testing against blue shadow decks?
Against shadow decks I usually side out the Fulminator Mages (really slow against them), then add in Leyline of the Voids and 2 Ricocht Trap, those 2 are better against them than Blood Moon.
The Blood Moons is mainly for like Eldrazi Tron, G/x Tron, Abzan Company, B/x Midrange, Jeskai Control. Their manabase is easier to lockdown.
Hm interesting, my initial mock up of the manabase is quite similar except I have access to 4 verdants and also playing a single godless shrine and kessig wolf run. On the creature side, I have 2 pale recluse as well and thinking of taking the extra recluse and turning it into a twisted abomination.
Have you had any testing against blue shadow decks?
My manabase is close to yours (and I run 2x Blood Moon in the side). I also run a singleton Pale Recluse and a singleton Twisted Abomination.
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
I've found this works wonders against Eldrazi Tron, and it is decent against Grixis Shadow. It can be a bit slow and is vulnerable to their discard spells, though, so it definitely doesn't replace Leyline.
I've found this works wonders against Eldrazi Tron, and it is decent against Grixis Shadow. It can be a bit slow and is vulnerable to their discard spells, though, so it definitely doesn't replace Leyline.
Hm interesting, my initial mock up of the manabase is quite similar except I have access to 4 verdants and also playing a single godless shrine and kessig wolf run. On the creature side, I have 2 pale recluse as well and thinking of taking the extra recluse and turning it into a twisted abomination.
Have you had any testing against blue shadow decks?
My manabase is close to yours (and I run 2x Blood Moon in the side). I also run a singleton Pale Recluse and a singleton Twisted Abomination.
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
I've found this works wonders against Eldrazi Tron, and it is decent against Grixis Shadow. It can be a bit slow and is vulnerable to their discard spells, though, so it definitely doesn't replace Leyline.
I've found this works wonders against Eldrazi Tron, and it is decent against Grixis Shadow. It can be a bit slow and is vulnerable to their discard spells, though, so it definitely doesn't replace Leyline.
Do you play ricochet traps as well?
No. I've found that Counterspells are at an all time low right now, so I've cut them completely from my 75.
So has anyone else done any testing with the As Foretold version of Living end?
I'm irritated enough at Demonic-uselessness tonight that I picked up the extra pieces to give it a go. Just wondering how many other people have tried and/or are trying it out?
That is essentially another deck altogether, and there is no chance it is as consistent as the traditional Living End deck. The build you describe sounds like it is pretty close to the newer version of Restore Balance combo and might be a bit better as that deck.
I take off too. Macabre is not good for now. Look the prior mathcups:
1- Grixis DS (macabre is so so)
2- Burn (macabre is not necessary)
3- Affinity (if ravager is online, macabre is very nice)
4- EldraTron (macabre is not necessary)
5- Scapeshift (macabre is not necessary)
Macabre is really good vs. mirror, dredge and storm (more less too)
Faerie macabre: Good, but not necessary in the maindeck.
Against grixis it is not completely useless, but also not good.
VS mirror, dredge and affinity, faeries are actually good, but there are other cards that can be used maindeck that help those matchups without being dead against the rest of the field (like hollow one or archfiend of ifnir)
For as foretold:
It has been said that living end does something mediocre, but does it consistently. And it is true: we spend the early turns not interacting much, then plan to LE on turn 3, and win on turn 4. Not the most broken thing ever, some decks can kill faster, or have more interaction, etc, but we can do it reliably.
Even our backup plan of casting creatures is the same: our creatures are not all that good but we have enough of them that we can reliably cast a stream of mediocre 5 mana creatures.
As foretold doesnt speed us up or make us more powerful. Assembling as foretold and LE is usually harder than assembling demonic dread and a creature on the battlefield. So not any more consistent.
It could be useful for things, for example I have an Uw LE build with ardent plea and as foretold playing commandeer, and there as foretold can be pitched to commandeer, and cast off blue mana, so it is nice, but even though the build is fun, and almost competitive, and has some nice things going for it, like all creatures being able to cycle for U, a totally painless manabase, etc. But since as foretold is not as consistent as a cascade spell, it sometimes struggles to find a way to play LE, thus making it ultimately slightly worse. Vs decks with discard especially, assembling 2 cards is much harder than ripping a cascade off the top.
As foretold lets you play a different deck too, without cascade.
But if you stop playing cascade, and instead start playing cheap spells + as foretold, then the entire deck changes. Suddenly it becomes more of a control deck, because you cant threaten to win early reliably. The cycling creatures become worse, because if you can play anything, and want to fill your GY with reunion, then might as well reanimate something huge, or 2 creatures that combo together, instead of 4/4s.
There might be a build there, similar to the UW as foretold visions balance deck. But it is going to be a completely different deck.
Also, jace vryn's prodigy does not allow you to cast visions or LE from your gy, as they do not have a mana cost. (same as with snapcaster)
Pro8e: That's way more dramatic then I'm thinking so far but I can see how you got there.
Morimacil: I don't intend to abandon cascade entirely. Violent outburst is going no where. But getting something on the board to Demonic Dread has proven to be an issue. Between control matchups with mostly no creatures to Mirran Crusaders out my eyeballs and such it's a card I've not enjoyed. It also feels like it forces me to play Beast Within which is another card I don't like to use. It's more of a necessary evil for Demonic Dread.
I mean, maybe this build won't work at all. But I started thinking about Demonic Dread, Beast Within and getting Living End stuck in my hand and figured I'd try something out.
Essentially I'm swamping 3 Demonic Dreads for 3 As Foretolds. The Horror of the Broken Lands x4, Beast Within x2 and Fulminator Mage x2 become Striped Riverwinders and Curator of Mysteries. Then I rejig my mana to support blue instead of black.
Might be terrible but it's a pretty cheap experiment.
Pro8e: That's way more dramatic then I'm thinking so far but I can see how you got there.
Morimacil: I don't intend to abandon cascade entirely. Violent outburst is going no where. But getting something on the board to Demonic Dread has proven to be an issue. Between control matchups with mostly no creatures to Mirran Crusaders out my eyeballs and such it's a card I've not enjoyed. It also feels like it forces me to play Beast Within which is another card I don't like to use. It's more of a necessary evil for Demonic Dread.
I mean, maybe this build won't work at all. But I started thinking about Demonic Dread, Beast Within and getting Living End stuck in my hand and figured I'd try something out.
Essentially I'm swamping 3 Demonic Dreads for 3 As Foretolds. The Horror of the Broken Lands x4, Beast Within x2 and Fulminator Mage x2 become Striped Riverwinders and Curator of Mysteries. Then I rejig my mana to support blue instead of black.
Might be terrible but it's a pretty cheap experiment.
You can always just cast your Fulminator Mages to target with Demonic Dread.
as for as foretold i am not sold at all. cascade spell doesn't want living end in your hand while as foretold need living end to be in your hand to function. not to mestion you will strain your mana base with off color U cyclers.
the only way i will play U in my deck is when shardless agent is modern legal (or if splinter twin is unbanned)
as for people that cut faerie macabre i wonder what you replace it with?
in my opinion if you dont have the faerie, your deck just fold to many decks game 1 (dredge, storm, affinity (if they have arcbound ravager), various GWB builds, death's shadowdecks)
i prefer to have a hedge to these matchup rather just fold and sideboard for them game 2
@Pro8e I'm interested in how many games you have played with traditional Living End before coming to the conclusion that you think it's more optimal to go to a totally different deck that just plays Living End and no cascaders.
Additionally, I'd prefer if the deck you described was discussed in a different thread. Essentially, you have 4 cards in common with this primer. That belongs in its own thread (perhaps End Foretold?) in Deck Creation. This primer is for the discussion of the Tier 2 deck that has a proven track record of success at GPs and SCG Opens.
I play 1 md beast within but my demonic dread enabler has always been forbidden orchard. Has that card fallen out of favor? I feel like if you are only including beast within to give yourself a dread target orchard is just better.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Am I only one sitting here reading all this and thinking "are we really having an issue finding a target for demonic dread?" Just go down any modern tier list and 95% of them will consistently have creatures on the board for us and the few that don't can be covered by beast withins if the deck itself doesn't fold to a sideboard card of ours in which case it doesn't even matter.
I play 1 md beast within but my demonic dread enabler has always been forbidden orchard. Has that card fallen out of favor? I feel like if you are only including beast within to give yourself a dread target orchard is just better.
The reason to include Beast Within in our deck is that t is an easier to cast instant speed Vindicate. It is a flexible answer to main deck hate, land destruction vs control and a way to get a Demonic Dread target in a pinch.
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Modern RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH UFblthpU BRXantchaRB BGVarolzGB URWZedruuWRU
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1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wooded Foothills
This is the mananbase I use for my Living End build.
Blood Moon on the draw is not suprising, because the opponent can have fetch/basics and play around it. On the play it is strong, especially turn 2 with SSG.
If you have Verdant then it is the best fetch to have for Blood Moon stratedgy, since it can fetch you the forest you need to cast Outburst easier.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
Have you had any testing against blue shadow decks?
The Blood Moons is mainly for like Eldrazi Tron, G/x Tron, Abzan Company, B/x Midrange, Jeskai Control. Their manabase is easier to lockdown.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
My manabase is close to yours (and I run 2x Blood Moon in the side). I also run a singleton Pale Recluse and a singleton Twisted Abomination.
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Blood Crypt
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
I've found this works wonders against Eldrazi Tron, and it is decent against Grixis Shadow. It can be a bit slow and is vulnerable to their discard spells, though, so it definitely doesn't replace Leyline.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Do you play ricochet traps as well?
i have a big question about the maindeck. Faerie Macabre is good, but is real necessary?
whats the matchup i want a faerie?
No. I've found that Counterspells are at an all time low right now, so I've cut them completely from my 75.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Yes it is real necessary.
The matchup faeries is good against are in like :
Mirror Match
Grixis Shadow (exile their wraith, tasigur or angler in the grave)
Dredge
Affinity (when they have ravager)
Goryo's Vengeance
U/R Storm
Or any other graveyard related decks.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
I'm irritated enough at Demonic-uselessness tonight that I picked up the extra pieces to give it a go. Just wondering how many other people have tried and/or are trying it out?
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
I take off too. Macabre is not good for now. Look the prior mathcups:
1- Grixis DS (macabre is so so)
2- Burn (macabre is not necessary)
3- Affinity (if ravager is online, macabre is very nice)
4- EldraTron (macabre is not necessary)
5- Scapeshift (macabre is not necessary)
Macabre is really good vs. mirror, dredge and storm (more less too)
Pro8e: That's way more dramatic then I'm thinking so far but I can see how you got there.
Morimacil: I don't intend to abandon cascade entirely. Violent outburst is going no where. But getting something on the board to Demonic Dread has proven to be an issue. Between control matchups with mostly no creatures to Mirran Crusaders out my eyeballs and such it's a card I've not enjoyed. It also feels like it forces me to play Beast Within which is another card I don't like to use. It's more of a necessary evil for Demonic Dread.
I mean, maybe this build won't work at all. But I started thinking about Demonic Dread, Beast Within and getting Living End stuck in my hand and figured I'd try something out.
Essentially I'm swamping 3 Demonic Dreads for 3 As Foretolds. The Horror of the Broken Lands x4, Beast Within x2 and Fulminator Mage x2 become Striped Riverwinders and Curator of Mysteries. Then I rejig my mana to support blue instead of black.
Might be terrible but it's a pretty cheap experiment.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
You can always just cast your Fulminator Mages to target with Demonic Dread.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
you could just beast within something at opponent's end turn and cast demonic dread on your turn.
as for as foretold i am not sold at all. cascade spell doesn't want living end in your hand while as foretold need living end to be in your hand to function. not to mestion you will strain your mana base with off color U cyclers.
the only way i will play U in my deck is when shardless agent is modern legal (or if splinter twin is unbanned)
as for people that cut faerie macabre i wonder what you replace it with?
in my opinion if you dont have the faerie, your deck just fold to many decks game 1 (dredge, storm, affinity (if they have arcbound ravager), various GWB builds, death's shadowdecks)
i prefer to have a hedge to these matchup rather just fold and sideboard for them game 2
Additionally, I'd prefer if the deck you described was discussed in a different thread. Essentially, you have 4 cards in common with this primer. That belongs in its own thread (perhaps End Foretold?) in Deck Creation. This primer is for the discussion of the Tier 2 deck that has a proven track record of success at GPs and SCG Opens.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
The reason to include Beast Within in our deck is that t is an easier to cast instant speed Vindicate. It is a flexible answer to main deck hate, land destruction vs control and a way to get a Demonic Dread target in a pinch.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU