The Restore Balance Idea is interesting. It definitely doesnt help versus Dredge and Burn, which are Living End's worst matchups in my experience.
Weirdly, I've had a bit of trouble beating RG Valakut and this might help here. Tron is already a good matchups, at least as long as they don't mainboard too many Relics. Scapeshift and Storm are close matchups, and the transformational plan might help against those.
Against Counterspell decks (Faeries, Delver, Jeskai Control, Gifts), the Restore balance plan might help by making a resolved balance a nearly guaranteed victory, but you lose the 1-3 traps some people run and the consistency of cycling, and those cons push me in the "it doesn't help" direction.
But for me, the fact that this plan doesn't help LE against its worst matchups is the issue here.
In my exeprience, there is no viable Sideboard Plan to beat Dredge or Burn with 5 cards or less in a 3-game match. And believe me, I went deep. Cascade into Kor Firewalker/Cage/Yixlid Jailer level. I also tried the usual lifegain package, but they were definitely too slow on the draw and often too slow on the play. Leylines+Faeries has never been enough for me to beat Dredge consistently, if they don't forget to bring their Nature's Claim in.
Edit: Now that I think of it, when I saw the Balance versus Dredge matchup tested, half of the Dredge versions were still running Bridge so the matchup might not be as bad as I wrote previously. I'm still not convinced it is a good matchup.
I think that's a great point, and I might come back to my roots and jam LE some now. The Probe/Push points are both very sound, and the cutting GY hate one is fairly true too. Any little bit they cut helps, and most of it we don't care about anyway.
Like, if we map all the GY hate options against LE, look how it comes out of: RiP: 5/5 : we ded Relic: 3/5 it does its job, but like, its very easy to play around and force the pop, etc. Ravenous Trap: 2/5: This might not even get turned on when it matters, and can be ricochet trapped Surgical: 1/5: This stops one thing, 2 if you're lucky. The other possible use is to surgical the LE's and hope to survive the current one, which will only really work for Verdict decks
And Cage: 0/5: It doesnt work
So all in all, it could be our time to shine.
Obviously will have to mess with the SB that will have all the normal stuff to adjust for the coming meta, I haven't really played the deck since the advent of dredge.
I think you still need to main the macabres, at least 1, as they will likely have stuff die or we'll have to use a second LE. I still think you need 4x dread, and itll be easier to get a target with a midrange creature deck meta.
Of note shriekmaw can't actually hit a lot of BGx's dudes, pretty much only goyf and the occasional huntmaster.
Thinking about trading into this deck--it seems like a whole lot of fun. To piggyback on the manabase discussion happening over the last few pages, I wonder what the cheapest way to improve upon a manabase I can borrow from other decks might be. (Assume a conventional LE setup.). Here's what I own:
I also have a playset of U/B fetches, which are probably too far off track to be run here.
The only glaring omission, I suppose, is the lack of R/G lands. Where would y'all go from here? 2 more Mires? 1 each of Stomping Ground and Overgrown Tomb? Can I get away without any Cooperline Gorge? I can snag Karplusan Forest for $1.50 a piece right now--is this a decent replacement for Gorge with the way a LE deck runs?
Vault is stretching it a bit too far. It might've been worth the risk pre aether revolt when aggro decks were running rampant but I think theres going to be a shift to midrange with fatal push and the lifelink portion won't be as relevant.
I'd imagine kessig wolf run is still the best option in terms of mana strain and gives us that reach to close out games and make profitable trades.
It is a matter of preference in mana base construction but I find that a single kessig wolf run has significant upsides and very minimal downsides.
It closes out games smoothly post living end or helps turn a single hardcasted creature into a must answer threat. In the upcoming metagame, i'd imagine we'd need to squeeze in as much value as possible with junk looking potentially to be the deck to beat.
Thank you, my friend. Two Mires, a Tomb, and a Ground is toward the upper end of what I want to spend here, but if they get me 90% of the way to an ideal manabase then it's well worth it.
I'll keep an eye on this discussion over Vault. Since I already own one, there's no cost to giving it a whirl; ditto for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, which was mentioned in the primer. Wolf Run will be a nice, cheap acquisition if neither aforementioned option seems to cut it.
run vault of the archangel its a solid move for post LE board state if you get to 5 mana. most LE games you won't need to get to 5 land to end the game, but for the games that you do, the grindy games, you atleast have something solid to do each turn.
I'm solidly in the Kessig Wolf Run camp, myself. There's a very low opportunity cost to having a single colorless mana source in the deck, and the ability to tack trample onto your burdles is super relevant; it keeps something like a Lingering Souls from halting your offense post-LE, and lets you smash through fat delve creatures like Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang without spending a card.
Hi again, got top 8 on our local GPT (46 players) using this decks (same decklist as before with minor changes on my SB)
I have some thoughts with the recent cards that we can use for our deck.
1. Lost Legacy - This is our replacement for slaughter games. It is one turn faster than it that's why I use this instead of the later.
2. Blooming Marsh - To be honest, I still prefer using blackcleave with copperline since 2 of our cascade cards contain red and I prefer having red mana available most of the time. I also run many red cards in the SB slot that's why I am not replacing my copperlines with this. The only time I might consider using marsh is if I am using wooded foothills/bloodstained mire instead of verdant catacombs which IMHO is the best fetch land for this deck.
3. Kari Zev's Expertise - This is the new card I was thinking of incorporating in our deck. Planning to include 1 on my list for those situations where you draw your living end. Might do a split of 3 living end, 3 beast within, 3 demonic dread, 4 violent outburst and 1 Kari Zev's Expertise as my non-creature spells.
4. Yaheeni's Expertise - I would rather use the one above instead of this. I don't like having my opponent returning his creatures after I cast living end
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Modern WBG Abzan's Junk WBG BRG Jund BRG BRG Living End BRG BGU Sultai BGU
Putting together a Living End deck, and I'm fairly green to Modern. I've got a question about Dimir House Guard.
His transmute ability allows us to tutor up Architects of Will, and any sideboard cards you might really need access to (Slaughter Games, for instance). Then, when he's brought back with Living End, he offers a nice, free sac outlet, which can be used if we need to blow the board again and we get to keep our board state, and add anything else that might have been pitched since the last reset.
There's probably a reason the card normally isn't run, but I'm curious if this is a terrible idea or not.
Putting together a Living End deck, and I'm fairly green to Modern. I've got a question about Dimir House Guard.
His transmute ability allows us to tutor up Architects of Will, and any sideboard cards you might really need access to (Slaughter Games, for instance). Then, when he's brought back with Living End, he offers a nice, free sac outlet, which can be used if we need to blow the board again and we get to keep our board state, and add anything else that might have been pitched since the last reset.
There's probably a reason the card normally isn't run, but I'm curious if this is a terrible idea or not.
I'm not the most experience pilot of the deck, but it seems to me that it's slow and it does very little in Game 1. Paying three mana to set yourself up to do something later without actually doing anything now isn't great in slower matches, but is downright deadly in quicker ones. And in Game 1, you're not even tutoring up a good card. You're basically spending 4 mana to find a cycle that Architects or, if you're running a LD Heavy build, you're using it to fetch up an Avalanche Riders. Plus, what are you taking out for it? Can't really remove a cycler for something that serves a similar purpose, but is so much slower and more mana intensive. Maybe you swap out one of the two mana cyclers, but this is still slower.
Now, Games 2 and 3, Dimir House Guard starts grabbing some more versatile cards (Slaughter Games, Ricochet Trap, Boil, and Leyline of the Void), but it's still extremely slow and mana intensive. You're spending a whole turn to do nothing now so you can do something else later, which you are also broadcasting to your opponent a full turn beforehand.
I love the card, it's one of my favorites in EDH, but it's just too clunky for Modern. That said, I always enjoy when people try thinking out of the box a little. This is a peculiar deck with some curious deckbuilding restrictions, it wasn't created by thinking of all the normal things that can be done within the format.
1. Lost Legacy - This is our replacement for slaughter games. It is one turn faster than it that's why I use this instead of the later.
Not quite sure it's better, probably depends on your local meta. Slaughter Games had some utility against slow counter heavy deck, where Legacy would be pretty bad. For the more usual Cranial-Extraction-ish matchups, it depends. The double black cost might hurt us, but I guess it's basically as much a problem as the 4 CMC of Games in terms of mana issues.
It's better against GR Valakut, Bloomless Amulet, GrishoalBrand.
It's worse against BtL Shift, Ad Nauseam, Eggs, Jeskai Control.
Against Gifts, it probably depends on how much countermagic they're running, but speed means LL is probably better in this matchup.
I probably forgot a few deck, I'd be glad if you told me which ones
Kari Zev Expertise as a 9th Living End seems decent to me, I'll try it out.
Putting together a Living End deck, and I'm fairly green to Modern. I've got a question about Dimir House Guard.
His transmute ability allows us to tutor up Architects of Will, and any sideboard cards you might really need access to (Slaughter Games, for instance). Then, when he's brought back with Living End, he offers a nice, free sac outlet, which can be used if we need to blow the board again and we get to keep our board state, and add anything else that might have been pitched since the last reset.
There's probably a reason the card normally isn't run, but I'm curious if this is a terrible idea or not.
its unfortuante, but non of the transmute creatures are good for LE. we'd be running them already if there were one.
Alright, I've done some trading in and will be pulling the trigger on acquiring this deck shortly. Here's the all-comers list I'm looking at to learn the deck with. Suggestions welcome!
I'm going with the manabase as suggested by Second_Sunrise. Potential changes include Wolf Run in for Vault and the addition of Copperline Gorge, should those happen to cross my path.
Eventually I'd like to make space in the side for 2 of either Slaughter Games or Lost Legacy alongside 1-2 Kolaghan's Command, but I know how those cards play, so for now the sideboard is stocked with LE-specific tech.
At the moment, i'm thinking of using lost legacy over slaughter games. In my local meta as well as the overall meta, blue based combo decks that back up their combo with lots of counterspells isn't that big. I'd rather trade the safety for the speed (turn 2 with SSG lost legacy sounds pretty nice).
Aside from that, my SB will shift more to deal with the influx of midrange and combo so 1-2 shriekmaws and up the faerie macabre count. I might just drop lifegain all together depending on how burn shapes up against the fatal push meta.
My mainboard might see a change, I feel like having 1 jungle weaver is the correct call against the influx of bigger creatures and I might move from 4 architects to 3, theoretically it should be a good call against the influx of X/4+s and one less potential target for fatal push by moving out an architect.
Finally, I think i'l give kari zev's expertise a shot but from where i'm standing, it only looks to be good against the grindier midrange matchups in which we might have to recur multiple living ends. It might end up as a singleton in the SB and will come in subbing a demonic dread.
Seth Manfield on TCGplayer did an article and video series on Living End today. I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts.
I've wanted to build Living End for years, and finally pulled the trigger today. I've been on Grixis Control for years so I already had most of the mana base and the Fulminators, and just needed the the cyclers, cascade spells, evoke creatures, and Living End itself. I'm looking forward to sleeving it up and joining the community!
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Seth Manfield on TCGplayer did an article and video series on Living End today. I'd be curious to hear people's thoughts.
I've wanted to build Living End for years, and finally pulled the trigger today. I've been on Grixis Control for years so I already had most of the mana base and the Fulminators, and just needed the the cyclers, cascade spells, evoke creatures, and Living End itself. I'm looking forward to sleeving it up and joining the community!
The article is pretty basic all things considered. Outside of Eldrazi winter, most of the pro/competitive scene do not really give living end any real thought which lets those who pilot the deck sneak in free wins off the backs of ignorance. The article covers the basics of the two punch board wipe and reanmiation and how it interacts with the creature meta but there is a lot of depth to living end in the land destruction subgame it plays that most people tend to ignore or gloss over.
Off the top of my head, Jon Orr is the only living end one trick that happened to have a stint in pro play not too long ago. He wrote a rather short but super informative post that can be found googling his name and "reddit living end" which discusses advance mana denial tactics that living end can employ. This upcoming meta that seems to be fatal push dominated might very well be 3 color heavy which makes living end a solid option because it is without a doubt, the best land destruction deck in the format.
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Weirdly, I've had a bit of trouble beating RG Valakut and this might help here. Tron is already a good matchups, at least as long as they don't mainboard too many Relics. Scapeshift and Storm are close matchups, and the transformational plan might help against those.
Against Counterspell decks (Faeries, Delver, Jeskai Control, Gifts), the Restore balance plan might help by making a resolved balance a nearly guaranteed victory, but you lose the 1-3 traps some people run and the consistency of cycling, and those cons push me in the "it doesn't help" direction.
But for me, the fact that this plan doesn't help LE against its worst matchups is the issue here.
In my exeprience, there is no viable Sideboard Plan to beat Dredge or Burn with 5 cards or less in a 3-game match. And believe me, I went deep. Cascade into Kor Firewalker/Cage/Yixlid Jailer level. I also tried the usual lifegain package, but they were definitely too slow on the draw and often too slow on the play. Leylines+Faeries has never been enough for me to beat Dredge consistently, if they don't forget to bring their Nature's Claim in.
Edit: Now that I think of it, when I saw the Balance versus Dredge matchup tested, half of the Dredge versions were still running Bridge so the matchup might not be as bad as I wrote previously. I'm still not convinced it is a good matchup.
Like, if we map all the GY hate options against LE, look how it comes out of:
RiP: 5/5 : we ded
Relic: 3/5 it does its job, but like, its very easy to play around and force the pop, etc.
Ravenous Trap: 2/5: This might not even get turned on when it matters, and can be ricochet trapped
Surgical: 1/5: This stops one thing, 2 if you're lucky. The other possible use is to surgical the LE's and hope to survive the current one, which will only really work for Verdict decks
And Cage: 0/5: It doesnt work
So all in all, it could be our time to shine.
I'm still on the basics of the deck:
4x Architects of Will
4x Deadshot Minotaur
2x Faerie Macabre
4x Fulminator Mage
2x Jungle Weaver
4x Monstrous Carabid
3x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Street Wraith
Instant (7)
3x Beast Within
4x Violent Outburst
4x Demonic Dread
3x Living End
Land (19)
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Copperline Gorge
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
4x Brindle Boar
2x Dismember
1x Faerie Macabre
3x Ingot Chewer
3x Ricochet Trap
2x Shriekmaw
Obviously will have to mess with the SB that will have all the normal stuff to adjust for the coming meta, I haven't really played the deck since the advent of dredge.
I think you still need to main the macabres, at least 1, as they will likely have stuff die or we'll have to use a second LE. I still think you need 4x dread, and itll be easier to get a target with a midrange creature deck meta.
Of note shriekmaw can't actually hit a lot of BGx's dudes, pretty much only goyf and the occasional huntmaster.
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC WhyLiving End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
Thinking about trading into this deck--it seems like a whole lot of fun. To piggyback on the manabase discussion happening over the last few pages, I wonder what the cheapest way to improve upon a manabase I can borrow from other decks might be. (Assume a conventional LE setup.). Here's what I own:
Definite fits: 4x Blooming Marsh, 3x Blackcleave Cliffs, 2x Bloodstained Mire, 2x Blood Crypt, 1x Forbidden Orchard
Subpar but potentially workable: 4x Llanowar Wastes, 1x Watery Grave, 1x Godless Shrine
I also have a playset of U/B fetches, which are probably too far off track to be run here.
The only glaring omission, I suppose, is the lack of R/G lands. Where would y'all go from here? 2 more Mires? 1 each of Stomping Ground and Overgrown Tomb? Can I get away without any Cooperline Gorge? I can snag Karplusan Forest for $1.50 a piece right now--is this a decent replacement for Gorge with the way a LE deck runs?
Thanks in advance.
I'd imagine kessig wolf run is still the best option in terms of mana strain and gives us that reach to close out games and make profitable trades.
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC WhyLiving End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
It closes out games smoothly post living end or helps turn a single hardcasted creature into a must answer threat. In the upcoming metagame, i'd imagine we'd need to squeeze in as much value as possible with junk looking potentially to be the deck to beat.
Thank you, my friend. Two Mires, a Tomb, and a Ground is toward the upper end of what I want to spend here, but if they get me 90% of the way to an ideal manabase then it's well worth it.
I'll keep an eye on this discussion over Vault. Since I already own one, there's no cost to giving it a whirl; ditto for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, which was mentioned in the primer. Wolf Run will be a nice, cheap acquisition if neither aforementioned option seems to cut it.
No love for Forbidden Orchard?
I still pack 2 in my list.
I have some thoughts with the recent cards that we can use for our deck.
1. Lost Legacy - This is our replacement for slaughter games. It is one turn faster than it that's why I use this instead of the later.
2. Blooming Marsh - To be honest, I still prefer using blackcleave with copperline since 2 of our cascade cards contain red and I prefer having red mana available most of the time. I also run many red cards in the SB slot that's why I am not replacing my copperlines with this. The only time I might consider using marsh is if I am using wooded foothills/bloodstained mire instead of verdant catacombs which IMHO is the best fetch land for this deck.
3. Kari Zev's Expertise - This is the new card I was thinking of incorporating in our deck. Planning to include 1 on my list for those situations where you draw your living end. Might do a split of 3 living end, 3 beast within, 3 demonic dread, 4 violent outburst and 1 Kari Zev's Expertise as my non-creature spells.
4. Yaheeni's Expertise - I would rather use the one above instead of this. I don't like having my opponent returning his creatures after I cast living end
WBG Abzan's Junk WBG
BRG Jund BRG
BRG Living End BRG
BGU Sultai BGU
EDH
R Purphoros, God of the Forge R
Pauper
RBGU Affinity RBGU
His transmute ability allows us to tutor up Architects of Will, and any sideboard cards you might really need access to (Slaughter Games, for instance). Then, when he's brought back with Living End, he offers a nice, free sac outlet, which can be used if we need to blow the board again and we get to keep our board state, and add anything else that might have been pitched since the last reset.
There's probably a reason the card normally isn't run, but I'm curious if this is a terrible idea or not.
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
I'm not the most experience pilot of the deck, but it seems to me that it's slow and it does very little in Game 1. Paying three mana to set yourself up to do something later without actually doing anything now isn't great in slower matches, but is downright deadly in quicker ones. And in Game 1, you're not even tutoring up a good card. You're basically spending 4 mana to find a cycle that Architects or, if you're running a LD Heavy build, you're using it to fetch up an Avalanche Riders. Plus, what are you taking out for it? Can't really remove a cycler for something that serves a similar purpose, but is so much slower and more mana intensive. Maybe you swap out one of the two mana cyclers, but this is still slower.
Now, Games 2 and 3, Dimir House Guard starts grabbing some more versatile cards (Slaughter Games, Ricochet Trap, Boil, and Leyline of the Void), but it's still extremely slow and mana intensive. You're spending a whole turn to do nothing now so you can do something else later, which you are also broadcasting to your opponent a full turn beforehand.
I love the card, it's one of my favorites in EDH, but it's just too clunky for Modern. That said, I always enjoy when people try thinking out of the box a little. This is a peculiar deck with some curious deckbuilding restrictions, it wasn't created by thinking of all the normal things that can be done within the format.
Whatever I build from my Box-o-EDH stuff
Legacy
Sneak and Show
UR Delver
Scapeshift Nic Fit
Modern
Merfolk
Thanks!
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
Not quite sure it's better, probably depends on your local meta. Slaughter Games had some utility against slow counter heavy deck, where Legacy would be pretty bad. For the more usual Cranial-Extraction-ish matchups, it depends. The double black cost might hurt us, but I guess it's basically as much a problem as the 4 CMC of Games in terms of mana issues.
It's better against GR Valakut, Bloomless Amulet, GrishoalBrand.
It's worse against BtL Shift, Ad Nauseam, Eggs, Jeskai Control.
Against Gifts, it probably depends on how much countermagic they're running, but speed means LL is probably better in this matchup.
I probably forgot a few deck, I'd be glad if you told me which ones
Kari Zev Expertise as a 9th Living End seems decent to me, I'll try it out.
its unfortuante, but non of the transmute creatures are good for LE. we'd be running them already if there were one.
I'm going with the manabase as suggested by Second_Sunrise. Potential changes include Wolf Run in for Vault and the addition of Copperline Gorge, should those happen to cross my path.
4 Violent Outburst
3 Demonic Dread
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
3 Beast Within
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Architects of Will
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Street Wraith
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Pale Recluse
1 Jungle Weaver
1 Shriekmaw
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Ricochet Trap
2 Dismember
2 Brindle Boar
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Shriekmaw
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Krosan Grip
Eventually I'd like to make space in the side for 2 of either Slaughter Games or Lost Legacy alongside 1-2 Kolaghan's Command, but I know how those cards play, so for now the sideboard is stocked with LE-specific tech.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
Aside from that, my SB will shift more to deal with the influx of midrange and combo so 1-2 shriekmaws and up the faerie macabre count. I might just drop lifegain all together depending on how burn shapes up against the fatal push meta.
My mainboard might see a change, I feel like having 1 jungle weaver is the correct call against the influx of bigger creatures and I might move from 4 architects to 3, theoretically it should be a good call against the influx of X/4+s and one less potential target for fatal push by moving out an architect.
Finally, I think i'l give kari zev's expertise a shot but from where i'm standing, it only looks to be good against the grindier midrange matchups in which we might have to recur multiple living ends. It might end up as a singleton in the SB and will come in subbing a demonic dread.
I've wanted to build Living End for years, and finally pulled the trigger today. I've been on Grixis Control for years so I already had most of the mana base and the Fulminators, and just needed the the cyclers, cascade spells, evoke creatures, and Living End itself. I'm looking forward to sleeving it up and joining the community!
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
The article is pretty basic all things considered. Outside of Eldrazi winter, most of the pro/competitive scene do not really give living end any real thought which lets those who pilot the deck sneak in free wins off the backs of ignorance. The article covers the basics of the two punch board wipe and reanmiation and how it interacts with the creature meta but there is a lot of depth to living end in the land destruction subgame it plays that most people tend to ignore or gloss over.
Off the top of my head, Jon Orr is the only living end one trick that happened to have a stint in pro play not too long ago. He wrote a rather short but super informative post that can be found googling his name and "reddit living end" which discusses advance mana denial tactics that living end can employ. This upcoming meta that seems to be fatal push dominated might very well be 3 color heavy which makes living end a solid option because it is without a doubt, the best land destruction deck in the format.