In regards to sideboarding AV, which looks like the best use to me so far, if we want to improve the BGx matchup there are more powerful cards, like Keranos, which will win the game. I think sideboarding 3 AV would be for a heavy BGx environment, with 2 AV for a more open environment. Playing 1 in the 75 is a mistake because of how inconsistent it is. 2 minimum. I'm convinced that AV lists have to run Loothouse to toss away the useless AVs later in the game. Jace VP is also probably necessary. I personally prefer to use my sideboard for answers, but if I end up with spare slots, AV is the immediate filler.
You can make an argument for AV in Jeskai. You can make an argument for Thopter/Sword (though not a good one) in Jeskai. You cannot make a good argument for adding both into your deck. There are only so many slow and useless cards you can have. Thopter/Sword is actually useless without the other half of the combo, and AV alone will not solve that. I do not recommend playing both (let alone Thopter/Sword) in these colours.
If you want a combo in your Jeskai deck, there's an existing one. Resto/Kiki is far better than Thopter/Sword in this deck. It wins on the spot, and Resto is fantastic without the other half. Kiki sucks, but usually you run Wall of Omens, so he's not entirely dead.
Here has been my list i am testing for SOI after hearing about the unbannings. Only loss has been against tron, using Conduit of Ruin as a pseudo eye of ugin replacement
Current wins include 8-rack, mono white death and taxes, affinity, cruel control, jund, and zoo. The large amount of cheap removal to stave off the early offensive coupled with vision is almost always GG. Only loss after casting vision came from that tron deck using conduit of ruin, finding 2 ulamog to eat my white lands after finding/using path on other creatures. BTW perfectly fine with that occurring since it somewhat gives us better late game. Would love to find a spot for the 4th vision, maybe cutting clique or elspeth? Thoughts on the 75?
For decks playing ThopSword MB you definitely want to be siding it out against a lot of decks G2 making their hate pieces pretty useless. I see a resurgence of Keranos, God of Storms coming, as well a suite of PW/Clique win-cons out of the board. Also, ThopterSword + AV makes Nahiri, the Harbinger actually intriguing as an option. She can loot away late-game AV's and search up a combo piece + sometimes favorably interact with the board (like say Ajani does after an attack, etc.). I think I'll probably test her out as a 1 of.
For decks playing ThopSword MB you definitely want to be siding it out against a lot of decks G2 making their hate pieces pretty useless. I see a resurgence of Keranos, God of Storms coming, as well a suite of PW/Clique win-cons out of the board. Also, ThopterSword + AV makes Nahiri, the Harbinger actually intriguing as an option. She can loot away late-game AV's and search up a combo piece + sometimes favorably interact with the board (like say Ajani does after an attack, etc.). I think I'll probably test her out as a 1 of.
Alternatively, Thopter/Sword could be a sideboard plan. Not sure I would agree with that, though, considering there are few decks you bring it in against. Sideboarding Gifts is probably better.
So what decks are you beating with your 4 Ancestral Visions that you didn't already beat?
Jund
But we can already beat Jund. Just run at least 3 copies of Elyze, Keranos mainboard, and possibly some angels, and you'll have yourself a good matchup without screwing over G1 against any other deck.
EDIT: Vision doesn't make us any better against Abzan, either.
I could see a case for lighthouse, which allows you to loot AV at the end of turn but not so much for Nahiri. I would love for her to work, but don't think that she is the best option for us. The biggest drawback for me is exiling tapped creatures or artifacts.
For the same CMC I prefer JAOT. He has given me lots of games with the mini Fact or Fiction. Most of my opponents acknowledge that choosing cards and then knowing that you have them is an excellent way to mess with their confidence. Also she costs the same as Ajani, which is better for us, like many others have said before.
Jace is way better in non AV/Thopter decks, but I think if you're running both AV and Thopter then Nahiri has more utility than Jace imho. Pretty much all of her abilities are relevant in that shell and while her -2 isn't the most exciting I expect to see a lot of enchantments out of the board against Ux control in general (Blood Moons against the 3 color variants, Choke, etc.). I've also been seeing a big uptick of Storm lately, where she isn't completely dead (or far too slow to interact favorably) like say Jace (Nahiri can get rid of Ascensions). Also, while Ajani is decent for his helix ability, the best way to utilize Ajani is actually the same with Nahiri. Ideally you want to keep a permanent locked down. Both Ajani and Nahiri have the tapped clause. So in cases where Ajani is at his best (like say keeping a Goyf tapped) Nahiri is also decent. Granted she's not good against man-lands, but that's a trade off for interacting with Enchantments. She's probably not good enough, but like I said, she's intriguing for the AV/Thopter shell since she can pitch late-game AV's and search out a combo piece (and exiling a tapped creature isn't the worst thing in the world).
For decks playing ThopSword MB you definitely want to be siding it out against a lot of decks G2 making their hate pieces pretty useless. I see a resurgence of Keranos, God of Storms coming, as well a suite of PW/Clique win-cons out of the board. Also, ThopterSword + AV makes Nahiri, the Harbinger actually intriguing as an option. She can loot away late-game AV's and search up a combo piece + sometimes favorably interact with the board (like say Ajani does after an attack, etc.). I think I'll probably test her out as a 1 of.
Alternatively, Thopter/Sword could be a sideboard plan. Not sure I would agree with that, though, considering there are few decks you bring it in against. Sideboarding Gifts is probably better.
Maybe, but to me if you aren't running Thopter you're probably running some Resto's in the main, so siding into the Kiki combo is probably better. Thopter Sword would take up a lot of SB space (at least 6 slots). Thopter to me is MB or not at all since most hate for Thopter comes from the board so you can better utilize the SB game advantage and get some virtual CA with your opponents bringing in Thop hate and you siding into a Keranos/Clique/PW package.
Because Abzan is a bigger deck. They have Rhino and Lingering Souls, both of which are quite problematic. Where Jund has Bobs and Scoozes that we can simply off with a Bolt, Rhino requires a Path, and Lingering Souls is so much value that we're always on the bad end of it. Having more cards doesn't making dealing with Lingering Souls any better, and there are only 4 Paths in the deck along with 2-3 Wraths to deal with Rhino. We can counter their things still, but Lingering Souls is incredibly good against counterspells. It's not a terrible matchup by any means, it's quite winnable, but harder than Jund for us to handle.
Because Abzan is a bigger deck. They have Rhino and Lingering Souls, both of which are quite problematic. Where Jund has Bobs and Scoozes that we can simply off with a Bolt, Rhino requires a Path, and Lingering Souls is so much value that we're always on the bad end of it. Having more cards doesn't making dealing with Lingering Souls any better, and there are only 4 Paths in the deck along with 2-3 Wraths to deal with Rhino. We can counter their things still, but Lingering Souls is incredibly good against counterspells. It's not a terrible matchup by any means, it's quite winnable, but harder than Jund for us to handle.
Actually card advantage is exactly the method needed to fight through lingering souls and their beefy threats. BGx decks depend on trading resources and then having stronger top decks. Refilling your hand in the midgame means you can spend cards liberally to stabilize then take over.
The BGx shells have traditionally had an even to good matchup against blue based control regardless of how strategically that shouldn't be the case. This has always been because UWx had to depend on naturally drawing their 1-2 cards meant for the matchup (Keranos for example), without any method to find them. A raw CA spell means this isn't the case.
Also Jund has a much better lategame than a year or so ago. P&K and K-command did a lot to help in that department.
If anything I would be worrying about Grixis midrange shells that have a more proactive gameplan, while also sporting the means to battle late with their own AVs.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
AV is good against Jund and Abzan with discard packages. Imagine if they start first with thoughtsieze or IOK and they see you having a copy of AV, should they deny you the draw three which comes in turn 5 later or a counterspell/removal?
As for Thopter and SOTM combo, it is too slow to make it work. Dont forget jeskai control plays reactively, if you need to tap out for thopter and SOTM becomes risky thus lead to a blowout when abrupt decay and kolaghan's command seeing more play soon. Besides, thopter combo doesnt work woth sideboard cards such as stony silence and rest in peace.
I did a little testing last night of my previously posted list. The one change I made was going up to a 4-3 split of foundry-sword, and cutting the muddle the mixtures for 2 main deck Jace, AoT. The logic there was that Jace provides CA, and will blank an opposing thopter deck, which is very valuable for g1. All in all it ran fairly well, but I'm starting to think that there's not really enough room in Jeskai for it. Between all the answers, plus the burn package, the deck can get pretty cramped. I think it might be better in a straight UW shell. Between Path and Condemn, you should have enough early removal and your opponents life total doesn't really matter since you have the inevitability of a combo style win.
In regards to jhg218, I agree that it's a bit slow, and definitely agree that you don't want to run both AV and the combo, better to pick one or the other, but I don't think you really need to tap out. Each piece is 2CMC, so you can play them later in the game, and deploy them one at a time to ensure that you have protection from whatever you need.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Man Jex you really hate AV. Is it because it's 160 bucks for a playset now?
I mean you're arguing that "draw 3 cards" is bad versus a BGx shell
Well thanks for misconstruing my argument. I dislike AV because it's an atrocious topdeck in a deck which requires all your cards to be good or do something. If it's in your opener, you've basically just mulliganned. And let us dispel this fiction that Ancestral Vision reads 'draw 3 cards'. It does not read 'draw 3 cards', but instead, 'draw 3 cards in 4 turns'. If you don't cast it within the first 3 turns, you've got effectively dead cards in your deck.
My argument as for why it doesn't help against BGx, Abzan specifically, is that Lingering Souls is incredible value that an Ancestral Vision does not effectively combat. Abzan is a harder matchup mostly due to Souls, and AV does not do anything to make that easier. We have very few answers available. It's not a matter of drawing more cards and you can beat Souls better, because the cards that combat Souls effectively just don't exist. There's Thundermaw Hellkite, and that's about it.
Yeah, Visions is such a bad card, that's why Wafo-Tapo played 4 in his Extended control decks during the height of ThopterDepths (Hint: he was playing a sweet Teachings list). Visions is our best CA engine we have. If you're not playing it I feel like you should rather be playing a more tempo Geist oriented list to try and take advantage of others playing with Visions. Trying to go long against other control decks with Visions and or Thopter Sword when you don't have either of those is not going to go well. We're in a Brave New World - play the draw 3
Yeah, Visions is such a bad card, that's why Wafo-Tapo played 4 in his Extended control decks during the height of ThopterDepths (Hint: he was playing a sweet Teachings list). Visions is our best CA engine we have. If you're not playing it I feel like you should rather be playing a more tempo Geist oriented list to try and take advantage of others playing with Visions. Trying to go long against other control decks with Visions and or Thopter Sword when you don't have either of those is not going to go well. We're in a Brave New World - play the draw 3
Agreed 100%. I have been goldfishing with a Visions list for a bit and it seems fantastic.
Yeah, Visions is such a bad card, that's why Wafo-Tapo played 4 in his Extended control decks during the height of ThopterDepths (Hint: he was playing a sweet Teachings list). Visions is our best CA engine we have. If you're not playing it I feel like you should rather be playing a more tempo Geist oriented list to try and take advantage of others playing with Visions. Trying to go long against other control decks with Visions and or Thopter Sword when you don't have either of those is not going to go well. We're in a Brave New World - play the draw 3
Agreed 100%. I have been goldfishing with a Visions list for a bit and it seems fantastic.
Man Jex you really hate AV. Is it because it's 160 bucks for a playset now?
I mean you're arguing that "draw 3 cards" is bad versus a BGx shell
Well thanks for misconstruing my argument. I dislike AV because it's an atrocious topdeck in a deck which requires all your cards to be good or do something. If it's in your opener, you've basically just mulliganned. And let us dispel this fiction that Ancestral Vision reads 'draw 3 cards'. It does not read 'draw 3 cards', but instead, 'draw 3 cards in 4 turns'. If you don't cast it within the first 3 turns, you've got effectively dead cards in your deck.
My argument as for why it doesn't help against BGx, Abzan specifically, is that Lingering Souls is incredible value that an Ancestral Vision does not effectively combat. Abzan is a harder matchup mostly due to Souls, and AV does not do anything to make that easier. We have very few answers available. It's not a matter of drawing more cards and you can beat Souls better, because the cards that combat Souls effectively just don't exist. There's Thundermaw Hellkite, and that's about it.
Well if there are no cards that beat Lingering Souls then how is AV not beating it an argument against AV?
AV could however help you to get through the land drops needed to cast that Thundermaw Hellkite
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
If you want a combo in your Jeskai deck, there's an existing one. Resto/Kiki is far better than Thopter/Sword in this deck. It wins on the spot, and Resto is fantastic without the other half. Kiki sucks, but usually you run Wall of Omens, so he's not entirely dead.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Instant 23
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
2 Spell Snare
Land 26
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Sorcery 5
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
1 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Wear // Tear
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Wrath of God
Current wins include 8-rack, mono white death and taxes, affinity, cruel control, jund, and zoo. The large amount of cheap removal to stave off the early offensive coupled with vision is almost always GG. Only loss after casting vision came from that tron deck using conduit of ruin, finding 2 ulamog to eat my white lands after finding/using path on other creatures. BTW perfectly fine with that occurring since it somewhat gives us better late game. Would love to find a spot for the 4th vision, maybe cutting clique or elspeth? Thoughts on the 75?
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
You need a Desolate Lighthouse in the manabase to loot away the dead AV later in the game.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Alternatively, Thopter/Sword could be a sideboard plan. Not sure I would agree with that, though, considering there are few decks you bring it in against. Sideboarding Gifts is probably better.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Why is that?
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Jace is way better in non AV/Thopter decks, but I think if you're running both AV and Thopter then Nahiri has more utility than Jace imho. Pretty much all of her abilities are relevant in that shell and while her -2 isn't the most exciting I expect to see a lot of enchantments out of the board against Ux control in general (Blood Moons against the 3 color variants, Choke, etc.). I've also been seeing a big uptick of Storm lately, where she isn't completely dead (or far too slow to interact favorably) like say Jace (Nahiri can get rid of Ascensions). Also, while Ajani is decent for his helix ability, the best way to utilize Ajani is actually the same with Nahiri. Ideally you want to keep a permanent locked down. Both Ajani and Nahiri have the tapped clause. So in cases where Ajani is at his best (like say keeping a Goyf tapped) Nahiri is also decent. Granted she's not good against man-lands, but that's a trade off for interacting with Enchantments. She's probably not good enough, but like I said, she's intriguing for the AV/Thopter shell since she can pitch late-game AV's and search out a combo piece (and exiling a tapped creature isn't the worst thing in the world).
Maybe, but to me if you aren't running Thopter you're probably running some Resto's in the main, so siding into the Kiki combo is probably better. Thopter Sword would take up a lot of SB space (at least 6 slots). Thopter to me is MB or not at all since most hate for Thopter comes from the board so you can better utilize the SB game advantage and get some virtual CA with your opponents bringing in Thop hate and you siding into a Keranos/Clique/PW package.
Because Abzan is a bigger deck. They have Rhino and Lingering Souls, both of which are quite problematic. Where Jund has Bobs and Scoozes that we can simply off with a Bolt, Rhino requires a Path, and Lingering Souls is so much value that we're always on the bad end of it. Having more cards doesn't making dealing with Lingering Souls any better, and there are only 4 Paths in the deck along with 2-3 Wraths to deal with Rhino. We can counter their things still, but Lingering Souls is incredibly good against counterspells. It's not a terrible matchup by any means, it's quite winnable, but harder than Jund for us to handle.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Actually card advantage is exactly the method needed to fight through lingering souls and their beefy threats. BGx decks depend on trading resources and then having stronger top decks. Refilling your hand in the midgame means you can spend cards liberally to stabilize then take over.
The BGx shells have traditionally had an even to good matchup against blue based control regardless of how strategically that shouldn't be the case. This has always been because UWx had to depend on naturally drawing their 1-2 cards meant for the matchup (Keranos for example), without any method to find them. A raw CA spell means this isn't the case.
Also Jund has a much better lategame than a year or so ago. P&K and K-command did a lot to help in that department.
If anything I would be worrying about Grixis midrange shells that have a more proactive gameplan, while also sporting the means to battle late with their own AVs.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
As for Thopter and SOTM combo, it is too slow to make it work. Dont forget jeskai control plays reactively, if you need to tap out for thopter and SOTM becomes risky thus lead to a blowout when abrupt decay and kolaghan's command seeing more play soon. Besides, thopter combo doesnt work woth sideboard cards such as stony silence and rest in peace.
I mean you're arguing that "draw 3 cards" is bad versus a BGx shell
In regards to jhg218, I agree that it's a bit slow, and definitely agree that you don't want to run both AV and the combo, better to pick one or the other, but I don't think you really need to tap out. Each piece is 2CMC, so you can play them later in the game, and deploy them one at a time to ensure that you have protection from whatever you need.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Well thanks for misconstruing my argument. I dislike AV because it's an atrocious topdeck in a deck which requires all your cards to be good or do something. If it's in your opener, you've basically just mulliganned. And let us dispel this fiction that Ancestral Vision reads 'draw 3 cards'. It does not read 'draw 3 cards', but instead, 'draw 3 cards in 4 turns'. If you don't cast it within the first 3 turns, you've got effectively dead cards in your deck.
My argument as for why it doesn't help against BGx, Abzan specifically, is that Lingering Souls is incredible value that an Ancestral Vision does not effectively combat. Abzan is a harder matchup mostly due to Souls, and AV does not do anything to make that easier. We have very few answers available. It's not a matter of drawing more cards and you can beat Souls better, because the cards that combat Souls effectively just don't exist. There's Thundermaw Hellkite, and that's about it.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Agreed 100%. I have been goldfishing with a Visions list for a bit and it seems fantastic.
Care to share the list you are testing?
Well if there are no cards that beat Lingering Souls then how is AV not beating it an argument against AV?
AV could however help you to get through the land drops needed to cast that Thundermaw Hellkite