I did. I see Go for the Throat, Slaughter Pact, Dismember, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Murderous Cut and Disfigure just in the most recent decks.
I'd argue that you're wrong and you're just biased. "There's no reason to play Esper outside of Lingering Souls," is incorrect as well. Esper Charm is very valuable as instant speed card advantage with useful modes. Black/Blue opens up plenty of other options as well. Pure Control Esper does exist. Esper Draw-Go. It has plenty of decent tournament results as well, it's just as valid as this. Lingering Souls is a versatile card, you're just pigeonholing it due to your own personal bias and it's fine as a wincondition in a Control deck.
You realise that everyone on the planet is biased? That's a stupid reason to discredit somebody's opinion. Esper Draw-Go is not as good as Jeskai specifically because it lacks Bolt. Burn spells are what make Jeskai better. Anyway, this is the Jeskai thread. Talking about Esper is quite irrelevant. Lingering Souls is by no definitions a win condition. It's a grindy card which does grindy things, and fills a particular grindy spot in the list. Win conditions are cards like Aetherling, and Keranos.
We are not a pure control deck. We are a midrangey control deck, which likes to play at instant speed. Lingering Souls is good in Jeskai midrange, but is quite awkward in lists with 20+ instant speed spells.
For the black removal, I think the decks you are looking at are not the same as what we are talking about. Esper midrange and esper control are two different archtypes. You don't see many of the lists here running full sets of geists, or nearly the same number of win-cons as you see in that list. What you posted is a lot closer to jund than to "true" control. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/571123-modern-esper-draw-go
is more of a straight comparison to what we've got in this thread, given the much lower number of creatures. Most of these lists do not play lingering souls, but its a reasonable card to play. Despite that, esper charm is far and away the major reason these decks are not just u/w control.
For the black removal, I think the decks you are looking at are not the same as what we are talking about. Esper midrange and esper control are two different archtypes. You don't see many of the lists here running full sets of geists, or nearly the same number of win-cons as you see in that list. What you posted is a lot closer to jund than to "true" control. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/571123-modern-esper-draw-go
is more of a straight comparison to what we've got in this thread, given the much lower number of creatures. Most of these lists do not play lingering souls, but its a reasonable card to play. Despite that, esper charm is far and away the major reason these decks are not just u/w control.
That was my bad. I sent the wrong link. Meant to send this one.
Hello everybody
I thought i write a little tournament report instead of just reading the forum. The last couple of months I mostly played Grixis deck variations. But i felt that Grixis control which I played at MKM Series Prague was not that good positioned. So i decided to go back to my favourite deck: UWR Control. I thought, that lightning bolt and lightning helix are reasons to play red instead of UW control.
The card choices are made to fulfill the target of having good aggro matchups. Im not sure about the spellskite and the wraths in the board. Wrath is better against elves and golgari charm and thrun but i think those should be verdicts.(Better against merfolk) I wanted to have access to a lot of basics against blood moon. I dont know if that plan is good though.
Remember I havent actively played this deck for quite some time, so any input on the deck and my card/sideboarding choices is very appreciated.
At the tournament I saw a lot of Burn decks and very few Titan and Tron decks. Those matchups I just wanted to dodge and not invest to much sideboard slots.
Round 1 UR Twin (2:0)
Game one: He keeps visions and few lands. He finds his third land when i have like 7 and he has to ghost quarter himself for a mountain for bolt to not get ajani ultimated. He cant do anything against ajani tapping his land every turn. I finally burn him out.
Game two: I bring in skite, purge and counters. I board out helixes, a cryptic and a couple of bolts. It is an interesting game but i slowly get ahead with resto which he cant handle and finally does the job. My opp said after the game that he didn't even bring in blood moon because he saw some basics game one.
1:0
Round 2 Living Twin(2:0)
Game one: I know that he plays either Living end or living Twin. I keep a hand with leak, a couple of lands and a clique. I play the clique at his EOT to get some pressure going. He plays outburst with her on the stack and puts some guys on the field. I target myself with the clique. In my turn i path his spider with reach and attack with clique. I feel that i can race him. Wall of omens slows him down untill i can land Gideon who buys me enough time to burn him out after another resolved Living end.
Game two: I board out some burn spells and bourd in the RIP, dispels and something i dont remember. Turn 8 or something he forces his living end through my remand, dispel and cryptic. I untap and wrath the board. I get ahead with Gideon and RIP. Gideon was super valuable in those Games.
2:0
Round 3 against Nacatl Burn(2:1)
Game one: I mull to 6 and cant do to much against his hand. I verdict his creatures but die to spells and more goblin guides.
Game two : I have an opening hand with resto 3 lands kitchen finks and removal. He cant win against resto flickering finks followed up by ajani.
Game three: Same story. He mulls to 6 and gets outvalued by resto, finks, snappi and ajani.
3:0
Round 4 against Affinity
My deck joice felt pretty solide after he played his first signal pest after his mull to 5. I draw paths, bolts and electrolyzes together with counters. I win. I made some mistakes at the end oft he game because i felt so much ahead but it didn’t mattered.
Game two: I see a hand with wrath, snare, stony silence, bolt and double steam vents and spellskite. I keep. He has two platings. But turn three I draw a flooded strand and can play Stony silence.
4 :0
Round 5 against Burn (ID)
4 :0 :1
Round 6 against Jund (ID)
4:0:2
Top 8
Quarter Finals against Burn
Going into top 8 at first place(I can start) and having this matchup made me feel pretty happy.
Game one: We both keep. I can counter some of his spells. But i dont draw more counters. So I clique him with him having 2 cards in hand and me at 6 live. I see that he has two lands in hand. I beat with clique and resto. He draws a burn spell to put me on three. I race with clique and resto. Me on three and him on 7 after my turn. I can counter his burn spell and race him.
Game two : i have to mull to 5. I keep a hand with colonnade, plains, celestial purge x2 and timely. I get to use all my cards but i do not draw a red land and die to lavamancer with my opp at 3(Having bolt, electrolyze and snare in hand). Really annoying.
Game three : I keep a hand with helix, colonnade, negate, land, land, path and celestial purge I believe. I kill the first goblin guide with my helix. Then i negate his lightning helix. This was probably a mistake. Then things fell apart. I kill another goblin guide after he put another land in my hand. At this point i drew nothing but another path(the last one in my deck after boarding) and lands. My opponent manages to burn me down to 6. At this point I had drawn some more lands. My opponent has two cards in his hand. I draw another land. I get bolted. Finally I draw a land. My opponent draws and bolts me. I die with 5 lands and two paths in hand. I felt miserable.
Overall the deck felt very well positioned. I think I had a decent chance of winning the tournament because I felt favoured against most decks in the top 8. So me getting screwed and flooded in the quarterfinals really annoyed me. I think I will rewatch the stream to see what mistakes I made.
I hadn't played this deck after the banning of Dig Through Time, but wanted to give it a chance yesterday. I don't know what's the general opinion on playing something closer to the original Wafo spirit:
I expected Living End and Melira combo to be popular, so I made room to 2 Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard, leaving me defenceless against Tron. Needless to say, I never met any of those decks, but a Tron player beat me twice in the swiss and the top8. Didn't lose a single game in the other rounds against UR Twin, Chapin Grixis, Burn and Merfolks.
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I'd argue that you're wrong and you're just biased. "There's no reason to play Esper outside of Lingering Souls," is incorrect as well. Esper Charm is very valuable as instant speed card advantage with useful modes. Black/Blue opens up plenty of other options as well. Pure Control Esper does exist. Esper Draw-Go. It has plenty of decent tournament results as well, it's just as valid as this. Lingering Souls is a versatile card, you're just pigeonholing it due to your own personal bias and it's fine as a wincondition in a Control deck.
You realise that everyone on the planet is biased? That's a stupid reason to discredit somebody's opinion. Esper Draw-Go is not as good as Jeskai specifically because it lacks Bolt. Burn spells are what make Jeskai better. Anyway, this is the Jeskai thread. Talking about Esper is quite irrelevant. Lingering Souls is by no definitions a win condition. It's a grindy card which does grindy things, and fills a particular grindy spot in the list. Win conditions are cards like Aetherling, and Keranos.
We are not a pure control deck. We are a midrangey control deck, which likes to play at instant speed. Lingering Souls is good in Jeskai midrange, but is quite awkward in lists with 20+ instant speed spells.
Everyone may be biased but not everyone is so blinkered and plain ridiculous about it. Have you tried thinking critically or doing any research at all? "Esper Draw-Go is not as good as Jeskai specifically because it lacks Bolt." Wrong. Many common threats are outside of Bolt range and Esper Draw-Go has a different, longer term gameplan where topdecking a Lightning Bolt or cycling into a Lightning Bolt with a cantrip would be a very bad thing. It would never run Bolt even if it was on colour. You're wrong to suggest that Jeskai is strictly better, it's just different. You were the one that just told me before that Esper Control hasn't existed since Inni / RTR lol so you're not even close to being an expert on this.
You're right that this is the Jeskai thread but that's no reason for you to spout nonsense about Lingering Souls not being good in Control. You contradict yourself constantly. "Awkward with 20+ instant speed spells," do you even know why it's called Draw-Go? Because it draws a land, drops a land and says go. It's all Instant. Just stop.
I did. I see Go for the Throat, Slaughter Pact, Dismember, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Murderous Cut and Disfigure just in the most recent decks.
That's not Esper Draw-Go. That would be some kind of Esper Delve. Murderous Cut and hand-hate get run in low land Control decks like Delve that use Tasigur. Disfigure in particular is too inflexible for any kind of Esper Draw-Go control. That's a card you might see in one of those Japanese Esper Mentor decks.
Esper Draw-Go is Pure Control, it runs a couple of Snapcasters, no hand hate and it's spot removal consists of Path and maybe Slaughter Pact otherwise it just draws into boardwipe or counterspells you. That deck has historically ran a playset of Lingering Souls. Again for the sake of Jex, as a win condition.
I'm going to start by saying that this entire "Lingering Souls is/is not a control card" argument going on in the comments above is giving none of us any reliable information. The goal of this thread is to establish what the best UWR Control list for the current Modern format consists of. Having a petty argument with somebody else in the thread really does nothing but derail the entire point of the discussion.
Regarding the list I posted earlier, though, I did play it through the Modern Premier IQ in Kansas City on Sunday. I ended up 5-3 in the Swiss with two of my matches going to opponents who didn't show, so essentially 3-3 in actual matches played. The results of the event for the list went as follows:
Round 1 - Opponent didn't show up (1-0)
Round 2 - Win against UR Twin (2-0)
Round 3 - Win against Burn (3-0)
Round 4 - Loss against UR Twin (3-1)
Round 5 - Loss against UR Twin (3-2)
Round 6 - Loss against Living End (3-3)
Round 7 - Win against Tarmo-Twin (4-3)
Round 8 - Opponent didn't show because match didn't matter (5-3)
As you can see, I played an awful lot against Twin, and I can definitely say UR Twin itself was the most popular deck in the room, and including the other Twin variants was the most popular archetype by a huge margin. But I also find this to be the case fairly often when it comes to Modern events of late, so it was something I expected. Going 2-2 in my Twin matches obviously isn't where I want to be, but I also feel like my list could be tuned to help make that matchup somewhat more favorable without sacrificing too much to the rest of the meta.
My other loss to Living End I honestly felt like there was nothing I could do. Game 1 I won because I was able to Mana Leak his first cascade into Living End, and then he had bad luck with drawing his other two copies. Games 2 and 3 I did play a reactive game for some time against him, but just playing Fulminator Mages against me in the mid-game gave him enough to do before I eventually ran out of ways to stop him just suspending Living End from hand. I definitely feel like some hard graveyard interaction may be necessary if this deck increases in popularity, but I may take some time to decide if anything like Rest in Peace/Relics/Surgical warrants any inclusion in the sideboard.
As you can see the only changes to the 75 are:
-1 Lingering Souls MD
+1 Restoration Angel MD
-1 Rending Volley SB
+1 Celestial Purge SB
The reason for the second Restoration Angel is mostly to help present another win condition against Twin decks, that still has the benefit of being cast-able at instant speed. Sukenik himself said the first Resto pretty much added for this reason to begin with, because tapping out for any threats against Twin can be pretty rough because 1) they usually have counteracts to interact with sorcery speed cards well 2) tapping out can put you at risk of having them combo, especially in Game 1. While I did say earlier Lingering Souls can still be serviceable against Twin, providing card advantage and threat they often have trouble dealing with, it's also never something I find myself just slamming on Turn 3 in that matchup. I often board at least one against them, if not even just all three when I'm on the draw against some players, so I feel like this change is a step up in that regard.
The main matchups Lingering Souls gives you help in, such as Jund, Affinity, Infect, or any of the Grixis control variants, I still feel like are very comfortable for this deck with Restoration Angel. A 3/4 body is pretty hard to kill in Modern outside of Terminate/other pieces of straight hard removal, because it dodges cards like Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command. And against opposing Path to Exile decks you're usually just happy with the extra land and then using a card to get rid of your Angel.
The second Celestial Purge is sort of a hedge against the fact that certain cards are increasing in popularity in Modern. Most Twin players are on the 2 Blood Moon 2 Keranos sideboard plan against you, so often-times Purge is very likely your best cards Games 2 and 3 because it removes the only cards they have that matter. Like I explained earlier though it also hits cards like Liliana of the Veil, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, as well as every creature you see against Burn. So I feel like the card is good enough in Modern to warrant a 2-of.
Cutting the Rending Volley seems counterintuitive, I know, because "Hey, aren't you trying to IMPROVE your numbers against Twin," but I feel like the card does not do much post-board in that matchup, and I'll explain why. I would say the vast majority of Twin players are sideboarding out their Pestermites as well at least 2, more likely 3 to 4, copies of Splinter Twin against you postboard. They know you already have alot of cards that interact with the combo, and seeing your greedy manabase they tend to be on a plan on disrupting you mana and fighting over a resolved Keranos until they out-card advantage you. Each time I've had Rending Volley it's felt pretty mediocre, being used mostly as a 1-for-1 removal spell with an uncounterable clause, as opposed to something that actually disrupts their postboard gameplan.
Any input feel free to let me know. I don't know of any major Modern events that will be occuring here soon (hopefully some local IQs as the next Modern Grand Prix wont be until March in Detriot) but I do know I'm loving playing this deck, and I'll still be tweaking it here in the next couple weeks.
I wouldn't splash an extra color for a card that doesn't solve any bad match-up. This applies to any deck. The role you want to give to Lingering Souls can be filled by more copies of Electrolyze and Supreme Verdict.
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Currently I would say Lingering Souls does give a high enough level of value in some common matchups though that it does warrant inclusion. Obviously it's primary use is to be splashed if you expect a meta full of GB/x decks, which is arguably one of the most popular decks in the format overall and very likely the #1 deck you're likely to play against if you're playing in a major event like an Open/GP/RPTQ. And, at least from my experience so far, the splash is very close to free. The only downside to splashing black in the manabase is that you cannot run a basic mountain to fetch early, so in the first 1-2 turns it's harder to cast Lightning Bolt without taking damage to do so. But I seriously haven't felt having two black sources has hurt my mana at all, even against decks with Blood Moon.
Also I will say that Mystical Teachings has been so incredibly versatile that it honestly would just warrant a black splash on its own. I see alot of straight UWR lists running a second Sphinx's Revelation in the slot where I'm running Teachings, and a second Rev seems suppppper clunky in any matchup that's typically going to be decided in the first four turns. So I'd rather have a card that can function as a toolbox, while also being able to find Rev, over just running a second Rev.
Basically even if it just were for 1-2 cards in the maindeck or even just some sideboard slots, I still feel as if splashing a fourth color with the manabase I'm playing is pretty simple. I'm not opposed at all to not playing black if the meta shifts in a way where the black cards aren't needed anymore, but right now I just don't see that.
Entertainingly, the traditionalists seem to forget that Wafo's original builds of UWR had black for his typical tech.
Tapping out for Lingering Souls is not bad. It's 4 bodies in one card that is super annoying for grindy decks like Jund, Abzan, and Grixis to plow through. Also, makes Affinity even more entertaining.
I believe when DTT got banned, some UWR lists immediately started trying out Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Some had success, some didn't.
I also think there was the occasional splash for Slaughter Games back in the day but I can't really remember.
Basically, splashes have occured in UWR for some time and it doesn't make the mana too terrible.
Entertainingly, the traditionalists seem to forget that Wafo's original builds of UWR had black for his typical tech.
Tapping out for Lingering Souls is not bad. It's 4 bodies in one card that is super annoying for grindy decks like Jund, Abzan, and Grixis to plow through. Also, makes Affinity even more entertaining.
I believe when DTT got banned, some UWR lists immediately started trying out Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Some had success, some didn't.
I also think there was the occasional splash for Slaughter Games back in the day but I can't really remember.
Basically, splashes have occured in UWR for some time and it doesn't make the mana too terrible.
I jumped onto Tasigur after the Dig ban, with 2 Lingering Souls and a Slaughter Games in the board. It improved the midrange matchup, which is probably favoured without black if you're skilled enough, and weakened the combo matchup significantly, due to worse/more painful mana, and a tighter sideboard. The Tasigur/Souls plan worked excellently against pretty much every deck except burn, and combo, while Jeskai had more consistent matchups against everything. Blood Moon was also a big thing then, and you had some instant losses from that. The game plan was quite a bit more midrangey, even with ~5 cards in the 75 which weren't traditional.
In a Blood Moon meta, splashing sucks. Now that Blood Moon is pretty much just in Twin, splashing seems a lot safer.
@Sabinfrost I'm not saying Lingering Souls is a bad card. It's not a control card, though. It's very midrangey in every way, and while you can run it in control, it's not a pure control card, and does not fit in pure control decks. Lingering Souls works in 'control' decks, which become significantly more midrangey with the addition. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but for the sake of arguing for 'pure control', Lingering Souls does not support that plan. Lingering Souls is a midrange card which is playable in control decks, but makes them more midrangey, just like burn spells add to the midrangey-ness of Jeskai. These ad hominem attacks are quite frustrating, and I would appreciate if you refrained from them entirely. You're misrepresenting my arguments, and misinterpreting my points. Stop.
Worth noting, there was a lot of Blood Moon, land destruction, and so forth in the top 8 of GP Pittsburgh. Also, someone can correct me if I've missed it, but Top32 had zero copies of Jeskai. The Twin deck that won was interesting, however. As the build resembled Jeskai control in many ways.
Worth noting, there was a lot of Blood Moon, land destruction, and so forth in the top 8 of GP Pittsburgh. Also, someone can correct me if I've missed it, but Top32 had zero copies of Jeskai. The Twin deck that won was interesting, however. As the build resembled Jeskai control in many ways.
It was a weird Jeskai twin. Generally if you want white in UR Twin, you should use it only for sideboard. The Restos were certainly interesting, but it was certainly Twin, not Kiki control.
Splashing an extra color always makes your mana less consistent, and when talking about Modern, more painful. Even if splashing the fourth colour in an already three-colour deck isn't that painful, you should evaluate if the gains overcome the losses.
Entertainingly, the traditionalists seem to forget that Wafo's original builds of UWR had black for his typical tech.
Tapping out for Lingering Souls is not bad. It's 4 bodies in one card that is super annoying for grindy decks like Jund, Abzan, and Grixis to plow through. Also, makes Affinity even more entertaining.
I believe when DTT got banned, some UWR lists immediately started trying out Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Some had success, some didn't.
I also think there was the occasional splash for Slaughter Games back in the day but I can't really remember.
Wafo-Tapa started splashing black for Thoughtseize and cards to solve his combo match-up. Slaughter Games was widely played when Scapeshift was the best Dig Through Time deck available. Lingering Souls doesn't solve any bad match-up. If UWR Control has problems against Jund and Junk, it's because people cut Think Twice to make room to more spot removal to improve their aggro match-up. If you want to beat Jund, stop playing Lightning Helix.
Also I will say that Mystical Teachings has been so incredibly versatile that it honestly would just warrant a black splash on its own. I see alot of straight UWR lists running a second Sphinx's Revelation in the slot where I'm running Teachings, and a second Rev seems suppppper clunky in any matchup that's typically going to be decided in the first four turns. So I'd rather have a card that can function as a toolbox, while also being able to find Rev, over just running a second Rev.
Mystical Teachings is the clunky card. You're usually using one full turn to get just one card you'll cast the following turn. With Sphinx's Revelation, you're using that turn to get X cards you might play the next turn, plus X life that are worth another card; in a deck that values quantity over quality, Revelation is the better card. We could discuss many fringe scenarios in which Teachings is better because you need an specific answer in a concrete moment, but you're only playing 1 copy and it costs 4 mana, so those situations won't come up that often and probably Teachings will be too expensive to solve them anyway.
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Entertainingly, the traditionalists seem to forget that Wafo's original builds of UWR had black for his typical tech.
Tapping out for Lingering Souls is not bad. It's 4 bodies in one card that is super annoying for grindy decks like Jund, Abzan, and Grixis to plow through. Also, makes Affinity even more entertaining.
I believe when DTT got banned, some UWR lists immediately started trying out Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Some had success, some didn't.
I also think there was the occasional splash for Slaughter Games back in the day but I can't really remember.
Basically, splashes have occured in UWR for some time and it doesn't make the mana too terrible.
I jumped onto Tasigur after the Dig ban, with 2 Lingering Souls and a Slaughter Games in the board. It improved the midrange matchup, which is probably favoured without black if you're skilled enough, and weakened the combo matchup significantly, due to worse/more painful mana, and a tighter sideboard. The Tasigur/Souls plan worked excellently against pretty much every deck except burn, and combo, while Jeskai had more consistent matchups against everything. Blood Moon was also a big thing then, and you had some instant losses from that. The game plan was quite a bit more midrangey, even with ~5 cards in the 75 which weren't traditional.
In a Blood Moon meta, splashing sucks. Now that Blood Moon is pretty much just in Twin, splashing seems a lot safer.
@Sabinfrost I'm not saying Lingering Souls is a bad card. It's not a control card, though. It's very midrangey in every way, and while you can run it in control, it's not a pure control card, and does not fit in pure control decks. Lingering Souls works in 'control' decks, which become significantly more midrangey with the addition. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but for the sake of arguing for 'pure control', Lingering Souls does not support that plan. Lingering Souls is a midrange card which is playable in control decks, but makes them more midrangey, just like burn spells add to the midrangey-ness of Jeskai. These ad hominem attacks are quite frustrating, and I would appreciate if you refrained from them entirely. You're misrepresenting my arguments, and misinterpreting my points. Stop.
I'm not misinterpreting anything. I'm straight quoting misinformation that YOU posted. If you want me to stop making frustrating attacks, stop posting really bad arguments full of holes. Lingering Souls does fit Pure Control decks, it works in them as a flexible win condition. There is no reliable way to kill four bodies in 2 lots of 2. What can you do? You can sweep them and they get flashed back, you can fire spot removal at individual 1/1s which is not good value at all. Without a specific Souls counter they bleed you out. Any flyer with a big back will eat removal and something like Vendillion Clique doesn't want to trade with Souls. Souls also fit Control as Control lives and dies on card advantage and it gives you an answer for Liliana of the Veil who is a very common card.
Since you are still not understanding this. You play Souls when you have free mana on top of the cast of Souls and you sit on counterspells, draw, sweepers etc. while the Souls bleed them out. That is a Pure Control strategy. Running JUST Celestial Colonnade is a terrible idea generally because of Pithing Needle. Souls is a very viable alternate way to close out the game in a long-game Control. You would not know this though as you just stated before that Esper hasn't existed since Inni / RTR before then saying Jesaki was strictly better because of Bolt. Bolt isn't a Pure Control card at all, you'd rather topdeck something else or have your 1 for 1 removal deal with anything like Path. Bolt works in Jeskai because the deck has enough complimentary cards like Snapcaster, Helix and Electrolyze to enable Burn kills or 2 for 1 larger threats like Tasigur though I wouldn't consider 2 for 1 against anything an advantage in Control.
I hadn't seen a Jace driven UWR list so I thought I'd include it for discussion. Not saying this list is optimal, and it's kind of soft to Twin right now. I've really enjoyed the Jace half of Vryn Prodigy, and will probably be trying out 4 copies along with Logic Knot.
Monastery Mentor is insane good btw. Usually you disrupt early game, play him mid game, and kill next turn with burn prowess triggers.
Oust plus Jace is really nice, it's really great against Tasigur, Finks, and Voice as well too. It gets around Dispel as well too.
You realise that everyone on the planet is biased? That's a stupid reason to discredit somebody's opinion. Esper Draw-Go is not as good as Jeskai specifically because it lacks Bolt. Burn spells are what make Jeskai better. Anyway, this is the Jeskai thread. Talking about Esper is quite irrelevant. Lingering Souls is by no definitions a win condition. It's a grindy card which does grindy things, and fills a particular grindy spot in the list. Win conditions are cards like Aetherling, and Keranos.
We are not a pure control deck. We are a midrangey control deck, which likes to play at instant speed. Lingering Souls is good in Jeskai midrange, but is quite awkward in lists with 20+ instant speed spells.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/571123-modern-esper-draw-go
is more of a straight comparison to what we've got in this thread, given the much lower number of creatures. Most of these lists do not play lingering souls, but its a reasonable card to play. Despite that, esper charm is far and away the major reason these decks are not just u/w control.
That was my bad. I sent the wrong link. Meant to send this one.
I thought i write a little tournament report instead of just reading the forum. The last couple of months I mostly played Grixis deck variations. But i felt that Grixis control which I played at MKM Series Prague was not that good positioned. So i decided to go back to my favourite deck: UWR Control. I thought, that lightning bolt and lightning helix are reasons to play red instead of UW control.
This is the list I played: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-09-15-uwr-control/
The card choices are made to fulfill the target of having good aggro matchups. Im not sure about the spellskite and the wraths in the board. Wrath is better against elves and golgari charm and thrun but i think those should be verdicts.(Better against merfolk) I wanted to have access to a lot of basics against blood moon. I dont know if that plan is good though.
Remember I havent actively played this deck for quite some time, so any input on the deck and my card/sideboarding choices is very appreciated.
At the tournament I saw a lot of Burn decks and very few Titan and Tron decks. Those matchups I just wanted to dodge and not invest to much sideboard slots.
Round 1 UR Twin (2:0)
Game one: He keeps visions and few lands. He finds his third land when i have like 7 and he has to ghost quarter himself for a mountain for bolt to not get ajani ultimated. He cant do anything against ajani tapping his land every turn. I finally burn him out.
Game two: I bring in skite, purge and counters. I board out helixes, a cryptic and a couple of bolts. It is an interesting game but i slowly get ahead with resto which he cant handle and finally does the job. My opp said after the game that he didn't even bring in blood moon because he saw some basics game one.
1:0
Round 2 Living Twin(2:0)
Game one: I know that he plays either Living end or living Twin. I keep a hand with leak, a couple of lands and a clique. I play the clique at his EOT to get some pressure going. He plays outburst with her on the stack and puts some guys on the field. I target myself with the clique. In my turn i path his spider with reach and attack with clique. I feel that i can race him. Wall of omens slows him down untill i can land Gideon who buys me enough time to burn him out after another resolved Living end.
Game two: I board out some burn spells and bourd in the RIP, dispels and something i dont remember. Turn 8 or something he forces his living end through my remand, dispel and cryptic. I untap and wrath the board. I get ahead with Gideon and RIP. Gideon was super valuable in those Games.
2:0
Round 3 against Nacatl Burn(2:1)
Game one: I mull to 6 and cant do to much against his hand. I verdict his creatures but die to spells and more goblin guides.
Game two : I have an opening hand with resto 3 lands kitchen finks and removal. He cant win against resto flickering finks followed up by ajani.
Game three: Same story. He mulls to 6 and gets outvalued by resto, finks, snappi and ajani.
3:0
Round 4 against Affinity
My deck joice felt pretty solide after he played his first signal pest after his mull to 5. I draw paths, bolts and electrolyzes together with counters. I win. I made some mistakes at the end oft he game because i felt so much ahead but it didn’t mattered.
Game two: I see a hand with wrath, snare, stony silence, bolt and double steam vents and spellskite. I keep. He has two platings. But turn three I draw a flooded strand and can play Stony silence.
4 :0
Round 5 against Burn (ID)
4 :0 :1
Round 6 against Jund (ID)
4:0:2
Top 8
Quarter Finals against Burn
Going into top 8 at first place(I can start) and having this matchup made me feel pretty happy.
Game one: We both keep. I can counter some of his spells. But i dont draw more counters. So I clique him with him having 2 cards in hand and me at 6 live. I see that he has two lands in hand. I beat with clique and resto. He draws a burn spell to put me on three. I race with clique and resto. Me on three and him on 7 after my turn. I can counter his burn spell and race him.
Game two : i have to mull to 5. I keep a hand with colonnade, plains, celestial purge x2 and timely. I get to use all my cards but i do not draw a red land and die to lavamancer with my opp at 3(Having bolt, electrolyze and snare in hand). Really annoying.
Game three : I keep a hand with helix, colonnade, negate, land, land, path and celestial purge I believe. I kill the first goblin guide with my helix. Then i negate his lightning helix. This was probably a mistake. Then things fell apart. I kill another goblin guide after he put another land in my hand. At this point i drew nothing but another path(the last one in my deck after boarding) and lands. My opponent manages to burn me down to 6. At this point I had drawn some more lands. My opponent has two cards in his hand. I draw another land. I get bolted. Finally I draw a land. My opponent draws and bolts me. I die with 5 lands and two paths in hand. I felt miserable.
Overall the deck felt very well positioned. I think I had a decent chance of winning the tournament because I felt favoured against most decks in the top 8. So me getting screwed and flooded in the quarterfinals really annoyed me. I think I will rewatch the stream to see what mistakes I made.
Thanks for reading
4 Flooded Strand
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
4 Think Twice
4 Electrolyze
4 Cryptic Command
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spellskite
1 Wear // Tear
1 Celestial Purge
I expected Living End and Melira combo to be popular, so I made room to 2 Relic of Progenitus in the sideboard, leaving me defenceless against Tron. Needless to say, I never met any of those decks, but a Tron player beat me twice in the swiss and the top8. Didn't lose a single game in the other rounds against UR Twin, Chapin Grixis, Burn and Merfolks.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Everyone may be biased but not everyone is so blinkered and plain ridiculous about it. Have you tried thinking critically or doing any research at all? "Esper Draw-Go is not as good as Jeskai specifically because it lacks Bolt." Wrong. Many common threats are outside of Bolt range and Esper Draw-Go has a different, longer term gameplan where topdecking a Lightning Bolt or cycling into a Lightning Bolt with a cantrip would be a very bad thing. It would never run Bolt even if it was on colour. You're wrong to suggest that Jeskai is strictly better, it's just different. You were the one that just told me before that Esper Control hasn't existed since Inni / RTR lol so you're not even close to being an expert on this.
You're right that this is the Jeskai thread but that's no reason for you to spout nonsense about Lingering Souls not being good in Control. You contradict yourself constantly. "Awkward with 20+ instant speed spells," do you even know why it's called Draw-Go? Because it draws a land, drops a land and says go. It's all Instant. Just stop.
That's not Esper Draw-Go. That would be some kind of Esper Delve. Murderous Cut and hand-hate get run in low land Control decks like Delve that use Tasigur. Disfigure in particular is too inflexible for any kind of Esper Draw-Go control. That's a card you might see in one of those Japanese Esper Mentor decks.
Esper Draw-Go is Pure Control, it runs a couple of Snapcasters, no hand hate and it's spot removal consists of Path and maybe Slaughter Pact otherwise it just draws into boardwipe or counterspells you. That deck has historically ran a playset of Lingering Souls. Again for the sake of Jex, as a win condition.
Regarding the list I posted earlier, though, I did play it through the Modern Premier IQ in Kansas City on Sunday. I ended up 5-3 in the Swiss with two of my matches going to opponents who didn't show, so essentially 3-3 in actual matches played. The results of the event for the list went as follows:
Round 1 - Opponent didn't show up (1-0)
Round 2 - Win against UR Twin (2-0)
Round 3 - Win against Burn (3-0)
Round 4 - Loss against UR Twin (3-1)
Round 5 - Loss against UR Twin (3-2)
Round 6 - Loss against Living End (3-3)
Round 7 - Win against Tarmo-Twin (4-3)
Round 8 - Opponent didn't show because match didn't matter (5-3)
As you can see, I played an awful lot against Twin, and I can definitely say UR Twin itself was the most popular deck in the room, and including the other Twin variants was the most popular archetype by a huge margin. But I also find this to be the case fairly often when it comes to Modern events of late, so it was something I expected. Going 2-2 in my Twin matches obviously isn't where I want to be, but I also feel like my list could be tuned to help make that matchup somewhat more favorable without sacrificing too much to the rest of the meta.
My other loss to Living End I honestly felt like there was nothing I could do. Game 1 I won because I was able to Mana Leak his first cascade into Living End, and then he had bad luck with drawing his other two copies. Games 2 and 3 I did play a reactive game for some time against him, but just playing Fulminator Mages against me in the mid-game gave him enough to do before I eventually ran out of ways to stop him just suspending Living End from hand. I definitely feel like some hard graveyard interaction may be necessary if this deck increases in popularity, but I may take some time to decide if anything like Rest in Peace/Relics/Surgical warrants any inclusion in the sideboard.
As of today the list I'm playing stands as is:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Anticipate
2 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Gideon Jura
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Annul
1 Dispel
2 Celestial Purge
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Negate
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Crackling Doom
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wear / Tear
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Baneslayer Angel
As you can see the only changes to the 75 are:
-1 Lingering Souls MD
+1 Restoration Angel MD
-1 Rending Volley SB
+1 Celestial Purge SB
The reason for the second Restoration Angel is mostly to help present another win condition against Twin decks, that still has the benefit of being cast-able at instant speed. Sukenik himself said the first Resto pretty much added for this reason to begin with, because tapping out for any threats against Twin can be pretty rough because 1) they usually have counteracts to interact with sorcery speed cards well 2) tapping out can put you at risk of having them combo, especially in Game 1. While I did say earlier Lingering Souls can still be serviceable against Twin, providing card advantage and threat they often have trouble dealing with, it's also never something I find myself just slamming on Turn 3 in that matchup. I often board at least one against them, if not even just all three when I'm on the draw against some players, so I feel like this change is a step up in that regard.
The main matchups Lingering Souls gives you help in, such as Jund, Affinity, Infect, or any of the Grixis control variants, I still feel like are very comfortable for this deck with Restoration Angel. A 3/4 body is pretty hard to kill in Modern outside of Terminate/other pieces of straight hard removal, because it dodges cards like Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command. And against opposing Path to Exile decks you're usually just happy with the extra land and then using a card to get rid of your Angel.
The second Celestial Purge is sort of a hedge against the fact that certain cards are increasing in popularity in Modern. Most Twin players are on the 2 Blood Moon 2 Keranos sideboard plan against you, so often-times Purge is very likely your best cards Games 2 and 3 because it removes the only cards they have that matter. Like I explained earlier though it also hits cards like Liliana of the Veil, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, as well as every creature you see against Burn. So I feel like the card is good enough in Modern to warrant a 2-of.
Cutting the Rending Volley seems counterintuitive, I know, because "Hey, aren't you trying to IMPROVE your numbers against Twin," but I feel like the card does not do much post-board in that matchup, and I'll explain why. I would say the vast majority of Twin players are sideboarding out their Pestermites as well at least 2, more likely 3 to 4, copies of Splinter Twin against you postboard. They know you already have alot of cards that interact with the combo, and seeing your greedy manabase they tend to be on a plan on disrupting you mana and fighting over a resolved Keranos until they out-card advantage you. Each time I've had Rending Volley it's felt pretty mediocre, being used mostly as a 1-for-1 removal spell with an uncounterable clause, as opposed to something that actually disrupts their postboard gameplan.
Any input feel free to let me know. I don't know of any major Modern events that will be occuring here soon (hopefully some local IQs as the next Modern Grand Prix wont be until March in Detriot) but I do know I'm loving playing this deck, and I'll still be tweaking it here in the next couple weeks.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Also I will say that Mystical Teachings has been so incredibly versatile that it honestly would just warrant a black splash on its own. I see alot of straight UWR lists running a second Sphinx's Revelation in the slot where I'm running Teachings, and a second Rev seems suppppper clunky in any matchup that's typically going to be decided in the first four turns. So I'd rather have a card that can function as a toolbox, while also being able to find Rev, over just running a second Rev.
Basically even if it just were for 1-2 cards in the maindeck or even just some sideboard slots, I still feel as if splashing a fourth color with the manabase I'm playing is pretty simple. I'm not opposed at all to not playing black if the meta shifts in a way where the black cards aren't needed anymore, but right now I just don't see that.
Tapping out for Lingering Souls is not bad. It's 4 bodies in one card that is super annoying for grindy decks like Jund, Abzan, and Grixis to plow through. Also, makes Affinity even more entertaining.
I believe when DTT got banned, some UWR lists immediately started trying out Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Some had success, some didn't.
I also think there was the occasional splash for Slaughter Games back in the day but I can't really remember.
Basically, splashes have occured in UWR for some time and it doesn't make the mana too terrible.
I jumped onto Tasigur after the Dig ban, with 2 Lingering Souls and a Slaughter Games in the board. It improved the midrange matchup, which is probably favoured without black if you're skilled enough, and weakened the combo matchup significantly, due to worse/more painful mana, and a tighter sideboard. The Tasigur/Souls plan worked excellently against pretty much every deck except burn, and combo, while Jeskai had more consistent matchups against everything. Blood Moon was also a big thing then, and you had some instant losses from that. The game plan was quite a bit more midrangey, even with ~5 cards in the 75 which weren't traditional.
In a Blood Moon meta, splashing sucks. Now that Blood Moon is pretty much just in Twin, splashing seems a lot safer.
@Sabinfrost I'm not saying Lingering Souls is a bad card. It's not a control card, though. It's very midrangey in every way, and while you can run it in control, it's not a pure control card, and does not fit in pure control decks. Lingering Souls works in 'control' decks, which become significantly more midrangey with the addition. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but for the sake of arguing for 'pure control', Lingering Souls does not support that plan. Lingering Souls is a midrange card which is playable in control decks, but makes them more midrangey, just like burn spells add to the midrangey-ness of Jeskai. These ad hominem attacks are quite frustrating, and I would appreciate if you refrained from them entirely. You're misrepresenting my arguments, and misinterpreting my points. Stop.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
It was a weird Jeskai twin. Generally if you want white in UR Twin, you should use it only for sideboard. The Restos were certainly interesting, but it was certainly Twin, not Kiki control.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Wafo-Tapa started splashing black for Thoughtseize and cards to solve his combo match-up. Slaughter Games was widely played when Scapeshift was the best Dig Through Time deck available. Lingering Souls doesn't solve any bad match-up. If UWR Control has problems against Jund and Junk, it's because people cut Think Twice to make room to more spot removal to improve their aggro match-up. If you want to beat Jund, stop playing Lightning Helix.
Mystical Teachings is the clunky card. You're usually using one full turn to get just one card you'll cast the following turn. With Sphinx's Revelation, you're using that turn to get X cards you might play the next turn, plus X life that are worth another card; in a deck that values quantity over quality, Revelation is the better card. We could discuss many fringe scenarios in which Teachings is better because you need an specific answer in a concrete moment, but you're only playing 1 copy and it costs 4 mana, so those situations won't come up that often and probably Teachings will be too expensive to solve them anyway.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Teachings is quite clunky.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I'm not misinterpreting anything. I'm straight quoting misinformation that YOU posted. If you want me to stop making frustrating attacks, stop posting really bad arguments full of holes. Lingering Souls does fit Pure Control decks, it works in them as a flexible win condition. There is no reliable way to kill four bodies in 2 lots of 2. What can you do? You can sweep them and they get flashed back, you can fire spot removal at individual 1/1s which is not good value at all. Without a specific Souls counter they bleed you out. Any flyer with a big back will eat removal and something like Vendillion Clique doesn't want to trade with Souls. Souls also fit Control as Control lives and dies on card advantage and it gives you an answer for Liliana of the Veil who is a very common card.
Since you are still not understanding this. You play Souls when you have free mana on top of the cast of Souls and you sit on counterspells, draw, sweepers etc. while the Souls bleed them out. That is a Pure Control strategy. Running JUST Celestial Colonnade is a terrible idea generally because of Pithing Needle. Souls is a very viable alternate way to close out the game in a long-game Control. You would not know this though as you just stated before that Esper hasn't existed since Inni / RTR before then saying Jesaki was strictly better because of Bolt. Bolt isn't a Pure Control card at all, you'd rather topdeck something else or have your 1 for 1 removal deal with anything like Path. Bolt works in Jeskai because the deck has enough complimentary cards like Snapcaster, Helix and Electrolyze to enable Burn kills or 2 for 1 larger threats like Tasigur though I wouldn't consider 2 for 1 against anything an advantage in Control.
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Keranos, God of Storms
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Snare
1x Oust
4x Lightning Helix
2x Remand
1x Shadow of Doubt
3x Electrolyze
3x Cryptic Command
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Ajani Vengeant
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Celestial Colonnade
3x Steam Vents
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Islands
1x Mountain
1x Plains
3x Molten Rain
2x Monastery Mentor
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Spellskite
1x Celestial Purge
1x Wear/Tear
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Stony Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
I hadn't seen a Jace driven UWR list so I thought I'd include it for discussion. Not saying this list is optimal, and it's kind of soft to Twin right now. I've really enjoyed the Jace half of Vryn Prodigy, and will probably be trying out 4 copies along with Logic Knot.
Monastery Mentor is insane good btw. Usually you disrupt early game, play him mid game, and kill next turn with burn prowess triggers.
Oust plus Jace is really nice, it's really great against Tasigur, Finks, and Voice as well too. It gets around Dispel as well too.
Usually it will kill your opponent. It's kind of super specific though to side in just for emrakul. Just my opinion though.
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"In response.. Mana Leak?"
"Every game loss is due to your inability to interact with your opponent"