In control matchups you could take out leak and verdict. Against aggro take out remands. And against combo take out what is bad against their decks. Why do I think this could be playable because your opponent drops removal spells so he will go unintended and if he is let lose he could take over the game.
Seems like Geist of Saint Traft is just better if that's the effect you are after. They are sometimes run in builds where the meta really wants a fast clock. The problem is they aren't great against aggro (like Mentor) while being mediocre against combo/midrange. You're better off running something more specific to make matchups better.
I don't mind Mentor as a sideboard threat. Seems like a nice way to level someone. Also a good way to finish a round if it's game 3 and short on time. It's much harder to deal with than Geist if it sticks. Also there is the option to wait a turn to hold up counter magic.
I wouldn't mind brewing a deck that ran Mentor mainboard. It would obviously be a faster paced style of Control not a long style. 4 Mentor, 4 Snapcaster, probably over a dozen one cost spells like Serum Visions, Path, Lightning Bolt and Spell Snare/Piece. Back that up with some Remand, maybe Helix, top out at a full set of Cryptic Command as it gets added offensive use clearing a way for the mentor + tokens while triggering prowess. There is a Japanese Esper Brew that is similiar to that it just runs Lingering Souls, Thought Scour and a couple of Tasigurs.
Clique on 3 is far too many. You'll never need more than 2, and I've found 1 to be quite enough.
24 land is too few. We need to hit our land drops for the first 5 turns to stay ahead. Unless you're playing a 2+ number of Serum Visions, 25 is the minimum.
Main diff is the Wall of Omens. They did a ton of work blocking and helped smooth out the early game. Later on, you have more opportunities to get value from Restos.
24 land actually seems fine for what he's running. He's mostly using 1 cost spells with Snapcaster essentially being 3 cost and Resto at 4-5 depending on if it bounces a caster as both a blocker and potential beater. It makes sense to run the extra Cliques as well because he has a way to double up on their hand disruption with the Angels and he's not running a lot of counterspells, probably too few actually, which means that breaking up combo is important.
In a Pure Control style deck with 26+ land I agree. In more of a tempo style of mid/control 3 is about the right number to ensure you see it. That's about what UW Midrange runs using the curve of Wall / Clique / Angel.
First time poster here. I've been testing various iterations of Jeskai Control, Jeskai Midrange, and 4C Control for about the past 4-5 months. I was on Affinity almost exclusively for the past three years, but looking at the current state of Modern I honestly feel like a UWR(x) shell is very well positioned at the time being. I'd say ever since playing in the SCG Invitational in Columbus and seeing Jonathan Sukenik's list from that event go X-1 in the Modern portion, I've spend the past months using his 75 as a starting point from which to learn. I've tested multiple different changes to the list, sideboard changes, and after everything imaginable I have still settled on the list below which is still 74 of Sukenik's original 75 minus one sideboard card.
The deck will be getting it's second competitive go-around this weekend. I plan on going to the 5K Invitational this Sunday at SCG Kansas City. I haven't been able to make it out to any major Modern events as frequently as I'd like this year, but I have been testing this deck extensively in our local paper meta, as well as testing matches against different archetypes on X-mage. I currently feel comfortable against almost the entire field in terms of the current Modern meta, but I still feel very weak to a few specific decks which which I'll discuss below:
Against GR Tron (to a smaller extent other Tron variants) I always feel heavily unfavored and like there's little to do to increase my chances in the match. Personally, from my viewpoint, the match-up is actually so rough I don't want to dedicate any more sideboard slots to the matchup (the 1 Crumble to Dust was mostly there for that FYI). Does anybody have any good experience as to what does effectively help you numbers against Tron players?
Also against Bloom Titan it always feels like they're so redundant that it's incredibly hard to play a reactive game against them because once the game goes long they have better inevidability than you. I have managed to beat the matchup two times in a row, but I do feel like overall it's a very lop-sided matchup for us.
A little less popular but I've also had problems against the Nourishing Shoal Reanimator deck, and a little trouble with Living End. Personally I don't expect to see either of those decks in large numbers on Sunday, but if anyone has any feedback on those matchups I'd love a discussion. At this point in Modern though, I don't feel like you can justify more than 1 piece of dedicated graveyard hate in your sideboard. Grave-yard based decks aren't very popular right now (minus the Delve vartiants which I feel favored against mostly), but if anyone has an argument otherwise I'd be great to hear.
I plan on writing up a tournament report for my matches I'll be playing at SCG Kansas City this weekend, so expect that come next week. But until then please do comment on any good changes you'd make to this list or any general advice you might have for those problem matchups I discussed.
Lingering Souls is a great card, but it really doesn't fit in the playstyle of the deck. I tried it out for a while, and you really need to be playing a proactive midrange strategy for it to really be good.
I can say personally I've been a huge fan of Lingering Souls in a few matchups that are currently pretty popular. It's great against Infect, Affinity, Jund or any of the other BG/x variants. Also, as counterintuitive as it may seem, having them against Twin actually can help, although you rarely can tap out for it early in the game. But from what I've found, Twin has an awful time trying to resolve their combo against you, so once the game goes late by around turns 8 or 9 it actually gives you a way to present a threat they can't really handle that well outside of Electrolyze.
I definitely can see going down to 2 at some point, but for KC I'm going to stick with three mostly for the sort of matchups I mentioned earlier.
The one change I think is likely to happen before the 5K tomorrow is that I'm probably going to add a second Celestial Purge to the sideboard. It's possibly one of my best cards against Twin for postboard matchups where they're boarding out their combo and looking to win with Blood Moons and Keranos. And also there's obviously other permanents the card's very powerful against right now: Liliana, Tasigur/Angler, any creatures in Burn. And since I'm definitely anticipating Jund and Twin variants to be the most popular decks in the room I think that seems like a good change.
The cut is likely going to be -1 Izzet Staticaster for the second Celestial Purge. Staticaster, from what I've experienced, is great in quite alot of matchups (Affinity, Infect, Tokens, just other random creature decks). But in most of the matchups where Staticaster normally is good I already feel pretty favored without the card. In testing I've been doing fantastic against Infect. Affinity can be a little bit rough because they're so dense with threats it's hard to trade 1 for 1 with them and still come out ahead, but I feel like some of the other sideboard cards I have already can make that a pretty serviceable matchup postboard.
Lingering Souls is a great card, but it really doesn't fit in the playstyle of the deck. I tried it out for a while, and you really need to be playing a proactive midrange strategy for it to really be good.
That's just simply not true. It's best in Pure Control decks because you can just bleed them out slowly a couple of damage at a time and then wipe the board with a Wrath if need be before flashing them back. Spot removal stinks against Lingering Souls, as do Sweepers. Souls is perfect for Pure Control for that reason, they put them on a fairly reliable clock without stopping you running Sweepers. Souls are also strong tech against Liliana as you can discard it and flash it back.
Lingering Souls is a great card, but it really doesn't fit in the playstyle of the deck. I tried it out for a while, and you really need to be playing a proactive midrange strategy for it to really be good.
That's just simply not true. It's best in Pure Control decks because you can just bleed them out slowly a couple of damage at a time and then wipe the board with a Wrath if need be before flashing them back. Spot removal stinks against Lingering Souls, as do Sweepers. Souls is perfect for Pure Control for that reason, they put them on a fairly reliable clock without stopping you running Sweepers. Souls are also strong tech against Liliana as you can discard it and flash it back.
When do you want to tap 3 mana for it? That means you probably can't hold up a Cryptic, so you're doing a very much a proactive action. 3 mana is a Snap + Bolt that you're not casting, or a Cryptic you're not holding up. Lingering Souls is the very essence of a proactive midrange card. Pure control grinds the opponent to a halt, then proceeds to win with something unbeatable, like Entreat the Angels.
Lingering Souls is a great card, but it really doesn't fit in the playstyle of the deck. I tried it out for a while, and you really need to be playing a proactive midrange strategy for it to really be good.
That's just simply not true. It's best in Pure Control decks because you can just bleed them out slowly a couple of damage at a time and then wipe the board with a Wrath if need be before flashing them back. Spot removal stinks against Lingering Souls, as do Sweepers. Souls is perfect for Pure Control for that reason, they put them on a fairly reliable clock without stopping you running Sweepers. Souls are also strong tech against Liliana as you can discard it and flash it back.
So when are you casting this and against what?
I don't run them in UWR. I run them alongside land as a wincon in Esper. You cast them when you want blockers or when you want to go on the offensive and be proactive as their threats are under control. It's very easy to hit the panic button and fire off a Verdict before flashing back more. I wasn't arguing that UWR should run Souls, I was debating the statement that they're not good in Control because they are. They are an alternate wincon to lands (flying, spot removal + sweeper resistant), a potential source of blockers and a way around Liliana +1 and endless hand hate.
I'd argue that Esper only runs them because there's literally nothing else they can play. There's no reason to play Esper outside of Lingering Souls. Even then, you said that it was good in pure control, which is a ridiculous statement, because the last pure control deck we've seen was Esper in RTR-THS standard. Lingering Souls is a midrange card by definition. It is a grindy attrition card which works the best in BGx shells, not control.
I'd argue that Esper only runs them because there's literally nothing else they can play. There's no reason to play Esper outside of Lingering Souls. Even then, you said that it was good in pure control, which is a ridiculous statement, because the last pure control deck we've seen was Esper in RTR-THS standard. Lingering Souls is a midrange card by definition. It is a grindy attrition card which works the best in BGx shells, not control.
I'd argue that you're wrong and you're just biased. "There's no reason to play Esper outside of Lingering Souls," is incorrect as well. Esper Charm is very valuable as instant speed card advantage with useful modes. Black/Blue opens up plenty of other options as well. Pure Control Esper does exist. Esper Draw-Go. It has plenty of decent tournament results as well, it's just as valid as this. Lingering Souls is a versatile card, you're just pigeonholing it due to your own personal bias and it's fine as a wincondition in a Control deck.
That's not entirely accurate. Esper Control is a hard board control deck. You can't play Esper control as effectively without Esper Charm, but Esper Charm as a card isn't the reason to play Esper Control. All the amazingly efficient black creature removal is. I'm not even sure why this is an argument here. The way I read earlier lines, I thought someone was arguing for the inclusion of Lingering Souls in Jeskai Control. That I disagree with. If you're just saying Lingering Souls is a decent card in Esper Control, I can agree with that, but it's not so strong/flexible/whatever that Esper Control can't do well without it. I played the deck before I found Jeskai Control. Lingering Souls is decent. It's not the greatest ever, and it is often the first card that gets boarded out for more efficient answers or threats depending on personal builds.
As far as win conditions go, Ætherling is just better. So is Dragonlord Ojutai is better. So is White Sun's Zenith. The list goes on, but it does have a specific use in Esper Control.
I think Jex is wrong in that Lingering Souls does have a specific job in the Esper Control, and there are plenty of cards that could be jammed in its place. However, I think he's arguing that the essence of the card is most definitely midrange, which makes sense to me.
If you go look at a lot of the results that esper-draw go has, you won't find very much of that "hyper efficient" black removal.
4 paths, 3 boardwipes, 2 snapcasters and counterspells is about as far is it gets.
Most decks don't run discard main, and not all even run it side.
Esper charm is pretty much THE reason to play esper. Its a fantastic card in hard control.
That being said, lingering souls, especially with a little bit of backup in the form of tasigur, sorin, gideon, or elspeth sun's champion are perfectly fine gameclosers, chump blocks, or just general roadblocks.
We could argue that cards like lightning bolt are burn spells and belong in burn more than anything else, but if that stops you from playing it in red based control, theres a problem. Lingering souls does a lot of things, and some of those things control is more than happy to have.
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Seems like Geist of Saint Traft is just better if that's the effect you are after. They are sometimes run in builds where the meta really wants a fast clock. The problem is they aren't great against aggro (like Mentor) while being mediocre against combo/midrange. You're better off running something more specific to make matchups better.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
i.e.
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Restoration Angel
Instant (25)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
3 Dispel
4 Lightning Helix
4 Remand
2 Electrolyze
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Negate
1 Pyroclasm
3 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
24 land is too few. We need to hit our land drops for the first 5 turns to stay ahead. Unless you're playing a 2+ number of Serum Visions, 25 is the minimum.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Wall of Omens
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Restoration Angel
Spells (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Remand
3 Mana Leak
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Dispel
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wear // Tear
2 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Shatterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
Main diff is the Wall of Omens. They did a ton of work blocking and helped smooth out the early game. Later on, you have more opportunities to get value from Restos.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
First time poster here. I've been testing various iterations of Jeskai Control, Jeskai Midrange, and 4C Control for about the past 4-5 months. I was on Affinity almost exclusively for the past three years, but looking at the current state of Modern I honestly feel like a UWR(x) shell is very well positioned at the time being. I'd say ever since playing in the SCG Invitational in Columbus and seeing Jonathan Sukenik's list from that event go X-1 in the Modern portion, I've spend the past months using his 75 as a starting point from which to learn. I've tested multiple different changes to the list, sideboard changes, and after everything imaginable I have still settled on the list below which is still 74 of Sukenik's original 75 minus one sideboard card.
Here's the list:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Restoration Angel
Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
3 Lingering Souls
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Anticipate
2 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Gideon Jura
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Annul
1 Dispel
1 Rending Volley
1 Celestial Purge
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Negate
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Crackling Doom
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wear / Tear
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Baneslayer Angel
The deck will be getting it's second competitive go-around this weekend. I plan on going to the 5K Invitational this Sunday at SCG Kansas City. I haven't been able to make it out to any major Modern events as frequently as I'd like this year, but I have been testing this deck extensively in our local paper meta, as well as testing matches against different archetypes on X-mage. I currently feel comfortable against almost the entire field in terms of the current Modern meta, but I still feel very weak to a few specific decks which which I'll discuss below:
Against GR Tron (to a smaller extent other Tron variants) I always feel heavily unfavored and like there's little to do to increase my chances in the match. Personally, from my viewpoint, the match-up is actually so rough I don't want to dedicate any more sideboard slots to the matchup (the 1 Crumble to Dust was mostly there for that FYI). Does anybody have any good experience as to what does effectively help you numbers against Tron players?
Also against Bloom Titan it always feels like they're so redundant that it's incredibly hard to play a reactive game against them because once the game goes long they have better inevidability than you. I have managed to beat the matchup two times in a row, but I do feel like overall it's a very lop-sided matchup for us.
A little less popular but I've also had problems against the Nourishing Shoal Reanimator deck, and a little trouble with Living End. Personally I don't expect to see either of those decks in large numbers on Sunday, but if anyone has any feedback on those matchups I'd love a discussion. At this point in Modern though, I don't feel like you can justify more than 1 piece of dedicated graveyard hate in your sideboard. Grave-yard based decks aren't very popular right now (minus the Delve vartiants which I feel favored against mostly), but if anyone has an argument otherwise I'd be great to hear.
I plan on writing up a tournament report for my matches I'll be playing at SCG Kansas City this weekend, so expect that come next week. But until then please do comment on any good changes you'd make to this list or any general advice you might have for those problem matchups I discussed.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I definitely can see going down to 2 at some point, but for KC I'm going to stick with three mostly for the sort of matchups I mentioned earlier.
The one change I think is likely to happen before the 5K tomorrow is that I'm probably going to add a second Celestial Purge to the sideboard. It's possibly one of my best cards against Twin for postboard matchups where they're boarding out their combo and looking to win with Blood Moons and Keranos. And also there's obviously other permanents the card's very powerful against right now: Liliana, Tasigur/Angler, any creatures in Burn. And since I'm definitely anticipating Jund and Twin variants to be the most popular decks in the room I think that seems like a good change.
The cut is likely going to be -1 Izzet Staticaster for the second Celestial Purge. Staticaster, from what I've experienced, is great in quite alot of matchups (Affinity, Infect, Tokens, just other random creature decks). But in most of the matchups where Staticaster normally is good I already feel pretty favored without the card. In testing I've been doing fantastic against Infect. Affinity can be a little bit rough because they're so dense with threats it's hard to trade 1 for 1 with them and still come out ahead, but I feel like some of the other sideboard cards I have already can make that a pretty serviceable matchup postboard.
That's just simply not true. It's best in Pure Control decks because you can just bleed them out slowly a couple of damage at a time and then wipe the board with a Wrath if need be before flashing them back. Spot removal stinks against Lingering Souls, as do Sweepers. Souls is perfect for Pure Control for that reason, they put them on a fairly reliable clock without stopping you running Sweepers. Souls are also strong tech against Liliana as you can discard it and flash it back.
So when are you casting this and against what?
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I don't run them in UWR. I run them alongside land as a wincon in Esper. You cast them when you want blockers or when you want to go on the offensive and be proactive as their threats are under control. It's very easy to hit the panic button and fire off a Verdict before flashing back more. I wasn't arguing that UWR should run Souls, I was debating the statement that they're not good in Control because they are. They are an alternate wincon to lands (flying, spot removal + sweeper resistant), a potential source of blockers and a way around Liliana +1 and endless hand hate.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I'd argue that you're wrong and you're just biased. "There's no reason to play Esper outside of Lingering Souls," is incorrect as well. Esper Charm is very valuable as instant speed card advantage with useful modes. Black/Blue opens up plenty of other options as well. Pure Control Esper does exist. Esper Draw-Go. It has plenty of decent tournament results as well, it's just as valid as this. Lingering Souls is a versatile card, you're just pigeonholing it due to your own personal bias and it's fine as a wincondition in a Control deck.
As far as win conditions go, Ætherling is just better. So is Dragonlord Ojutai is better. So is White Sun's Zenith. The list goes on, but it does have a specific use in Esper Control.
I think Jex is wrong in that Lingering Souls does have a specific job in the Esper Control, and there are plenty of cards that could be jammed in its place. However, I think he's arguing that the essence of the card is most definitely midrange, which makes sense to me.
4 paths, 3 boardwipes, 2 snapcasters and counterspells is about as far is it gets.
Most decks don't run discard main, and not all even run it side.
Esper charm is pretty much THE reason to play esper. Its a fantastic card in hard control.
That being said, lingering souls, especially with a little bit of backup in the form of tasigur, sorin, gideon, or elspeth sun's champion are perfectly fine gameclosers, chump blocks, or just general roadblocks.
We could argue that cards like lightning bolt are burn spells and belong in burn more than anything else, but if that stops you from playing it in red based control, theres a problem. Lingering souls does a lot of things, and some of those things control is more than happy to have.