I'm testing this version of the deck, convinces me enough, I won several tournaments store, tonight I have a shop tournament, and tomorrow will try to make a report, all to prepare for the PTQ.
I'm testing this version of the deck, convinces me enough, I won several tournaments store, tonight I have a shop tournament, and tomorrow will try to make a report, all to prepare for the PTQ.
4 Serum Vision
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Dispel
2 Spell Pierce
Thought Scour might be worth considering, but other than that I really can't comment too much because you didn't list a sideboard, or the land specifics.
Also, my relics of progenitus suck because I have scours over sleights, and snaps and lavamancers all suck with it. I used to be bringing it in for Jund, but I'm not sure I can anymore since I need the card-advantage from snapcaster and the removal from lavamancer to combat Jund's usual card-advantage tools. Outside of Jund it seems like I want graveyard hate and lavamancers in different matchups (except MAYBE storm, but lavamancer there is a bit of a stretch.) Is it maybe worth replacing the relics with Tormod's crypt? It's great for storm, living end, and the mono-black infect+discard deck (it uses runchanter's pikes and raven's crimes). They are not as good against deathrite or goyf specifically in the jund matchup, but I'm wondering if it's worth the ability to keep our graveyard to deal with the rest of jund's cards.
The relic is actually interesting because it adds a pseudo GY clock; you can threaten their Bloodghasting potential while still having a hard answer. You can also sometimes turn off Shamans while keeping your Snapcasters active by removing your own lands.
EDIT: What do people think of Into the Roil and/or Repeal? It's probably a lot more common that you'll want to draw a card off of Into the Roil rather than bouncing two things with Echoing truth, and Repeal can be okay even when you aren't using it to bounce a specific hate card like Torpor Orb, just when you need to not die and draw a card.
Token decks might not be the most common, but when you do face them, echoing truth is an all-star. Also, duplicate permanents do show up frequently, and truth gives a lot of tempo. I could see trying out an Into the Roil/Echoing Truth split, but Repeal probably doesn't cut it.
I'm thinking of putting some Shadow of Doubt in the board. It just seems like a really versatile card: deny a fetch-land, partially counter a slaughter games, turn off a pod activation/chord of calling, turn off a sylvan scrying/eye of ugin/expedition map, counter scapeshift/turns off a primeval titan trigger. I doubt I would bring it in if the only thing I expected it to do was counter a fetch-land, but it does seem okay against pod/jund/tron/scapeshift and pod/jund/scapeshift all use fetchlands so even it isn't a blowout, it's still okay.
With this (and when I eventually get blood moons to replace the spreading seas), my sideboard would be
I'm not really sure of the electrostatic bolt - it's there because it's a much better answer to spellskite than flame slash, but it doesn't answer linvala. I'm also not set on twisted image - it's really good against pod, killing all of their 1-drops and most of their 2-drops (including walls which bolt doesn't) and drawing a card. But right now it's not doing much outside of the pod matchup. I guess it can kill spellskite too.
I'm thinking of putting some Shadow of Doubt in the board. It just seems like a really versatile card: deny a fetch-land, partially counter a slaughter games, turn off a pod activation/chord of calling, turn off a sylvan scrying/eye of ugin/expedition map, counter scapeshift/turns off a primeval titan trigger. I doubt I would bring it in if the only thing I expected it to do was counter a fetch-land, but it does seem okay against pod/jund/tron/scapeshift and pod/jund/scapeshift all use fetchlands so even it isn't a blowout, it's still okay.
With this (and when I eventually get blood moons to replace the spreading seas), my sideboard would be
I'm not really sure of the electrostatic bolt - it's there because it's a much better answer to spellskite than flame slash, but it doesn't answer linvala. I'm also not set on twisted image - it's really good against pod, killing all of their 1-drops and most of their 2-drops (including walls which bolt doesn't) and drawing a card. But right now it's not doing much outside of the pod matchup. I guess it can kill spellskite too.
Shadow of Doubt seems a bit too focused. It's basically a nice counterspell that doesn't counter what you really want to counter (like Karn). As far as the SB removal spells, right now I'm just running a Flame Slash, a Combust, a Shattering Spree, a Threads of Disloyalty, and a Pyroclasm; and pick the best 3-5 depending on the matchup. It seems to work better trying to figure out the perfect 2 SB removal slots.
I'm planning to include in the deck (vapor snag x2), as it serves quite against spellskite, Linvala, centaur 3/4 I have seen in some Jund apart the opponent to lose life and it helps us if we put plan aggro, this is the list I'm currently playing:
I really don't like Dismember, especially main.. you already often take 4-5 per game from fetchlands/shocklands. With no way to produce black, you always need to pay the 4 life, and if you can't combo quickly, you're really helping out aggro decks almost as much as saving yourself.
Taylors... like your deck a lot and my first ever modern deck will be pretty close to yours, (maybe some difference in the SD) I've never played a modern game in my life but I'm ok going all in even if it means certains match could be harder...
I'm going to play in local stores and don't expect too much of the 1000$ jund decks... my friends are currently playing 2 scapeshift, soul sisters, kiki pod and GW aura... so i also really like your idea of ''Shadow of Doubt'' in the sideboard,
What kind of results do you have with your current list? I do have 2 unused snapcaster that i could put in the main, but i haven't found what the remove for them... Are you happy with 23 lands?
Seem like more echoing truth are needed in the side no? do you ever get to that point were the game is just stuck with a stupid card and you simply can't win?
And finally on a totally different topics... what are the cards that this deck really don't what to see in play... I have a general idea like, thoughseize, lilianna, limvalla, spellskite, I'm assuming other crap like worship are annoying if they resolve... I never thought about abrupt decay.. but reading this thread made me realize how this very simple card can slows us a lot with not much to do (so i'll just hope to dodge them). what else should i exepect to often ruin my day?
Taylors... like your deck a lot and my first ever modern deck will be pretty close to yours, (maybe some difference in the SD) I've never played a modern game in my life but I'm ok going all in even if it means certains match could be harder...
I'm going to play in local stores and don't expect too much of the 1000$ jund decks... my friends are currently playing 2 scapeshift, soul sisters, kiki pod and GW aura... so i also really like your idea of ''Shadow of Doubt'' in the sideboard,
What kind of results do you have with your current list? I do have 2 unused snapcaster that i could put in the main, but i haven't found what the remove for them... Are you happy with 23 lands?
Seem like more echoing truth are needed in the side no? do you ever get to that point were the game is just stuck with a stupid card and you simply can't win?
And finally on a totally different topics... what are the cards that this deck really don't what to see in play... I have a general idea like, thoughseize, lilianna, limvalla, spellskite, I'm assuming other crap like worship are annoying if they resolve... I never thought about abrupt decay.. but reading this thread made me realize how this very simple card can slows us a lot with not much to do (so i'll just hope to dodge them). what else should i exepect to often ruin my day?
Combust. That card is incredibly annoying and it actually made me lose against a Tron deck... I was going to combo next turn but he managed to produce red mana with an egg and combust my exarch, totally caught me by surprise lol. He slowed me down enough to bring out lovely big 15/15 monsters :p:p
Yea lol - but isn't Boros charm almost useful in any deck awesome as it is ^^
Edit: I don't think twin needs Rapid hybridization. It's more important for twin to have versatile answer cards as there are so many different types of hate cards.
What do u guys think about simic charm though?
I think it actually fits better into twin than Boros charm.
Yea lol - but isn't Boros charm almost useful in any deck awesome as it is ^^
Edit: I don't think twin needs Rapid hybridization. It's more important for twin to have versatile answer cards as there are so many different types of hate cards.
What do u guys think about simic charm though?
I think it actually fits better into twin than Boros charm.
The 'save a man' effect is roughly the same on both charms. Neither the doublestrike nor the +3/+3 are especially relevant (though the pump is better). It comes down to mana and the third ability. Some decks already splash green, but it's not a very deep splash, and is easy to drop if needed; so that's not too much of a consideration. In the end it pretty much all comes down to bounce vs. 4 damage to a player. I'm inclined to feel that, unless something from Jund gets banned, Boros is more valuable, just because it kills a +1'd Liliana. I'm not certain that's enough to run it, but probably enough to at least try it out.
The 'save a man' effect is roughly the same on both charms. Neither the doublestrike nor the +3/+3 are especially relevant (though the pump is better). It comes down to mana and the third ability. Some decks already splash green, but it's not a very deep splash, and is easy to drop if needed; so that's not too much of a consideration. In the end it pretty much all comes down to bounce vs. 4 damage to a player. I'm inclined to feel that, unless something from Jund gets banned, Boros is more valuable, just because it kills a +1'd Liliana. I'm not certain that's enough to run it, but probably enough to at least try it out.
I'd rather play Simic Charm because I'm still worried about Path to Exile (and not as much about Back to Nature). I've also found booting opposing creatures useful if I already have Dispel.
Simic Charms seems somewhat useful, but it's only real mode to us is hexproof, which can be had for a mana cheaper. Mizzium Skin already does that for us.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Simic Charms seems somewhat useful, but it's only real mode to us is hexproof, which can be had for a mana cheaper. Mizzium Skin already does that for us.
The creature-bouncing mode is also relevant if you're on a Pod- or GW Hate Bears-filled meta (i.e. you keep staring down Linvala, Qasali Pridemage, Thalia, etc.).
If you're against UR Storm, bouncing their Goblin Electromancer mid-combo can be relevant, while the Hexproof-granting often wouldn't. (But then again, my post-Song-ban UR Storm list started losing significantly more often to RDW pre-board, so I'm not sure how viable Storm will be come February.)
If your Exarch Twin opponent is attempting to combo off, bouncing their dude in response to Splinter Twin is better than nothing (or granting Hexproof to your untouched guys).
Those are certainly all good uses for Simic Charm, but I'm not sure they will come up often enough to justify running it, especially given the tough mana cost. Certainly worth testing, but I doubt it will provide enough value for the cost.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
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This is my decklist:
23 Lands
4 Splinter Twin
4 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pertermite
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Serum Vision
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Dispel
2 Spell Pierce
Thought Scour might be worth considering, but other than that I really can't comment too much because you didn't list a sideboard, or the land specifics.
The relic is actually interesting because it adds a pseudo GY clock; you can threaten their Bloodghasting potential while still having a hard answer. You can also sometimes turn off Shamans while keeping your Snapcasters active by removing your own lands.
Token decks might not be the most common, but when you do face them, echoing truth is an all-star. Also, duplicate permanents do show up frequently, and truth gives a lot of tempo. I could see trying out an Into the Roil/Echoing Truth split, but Repeal probably doesn't cut it.
With this (and when I eventually get blood moons to replace the spreading seas), my sideboard would be
1x Electrostatic bolt
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Spellskite
1x Echoing Truth
1x Into the Roil
2x Sowing Salt
2x Negate
2x Blood moon
2x Shadow of Doubt
I'm not really sure of the electrostatic bolt - it's there because it's a much better answer to spellskite than flame slash, but it doesn't answer linvala. I'm also not set on twisted image - it's really good against pod, killing all of their 1-drops and most of their 2-drops (including walls which bolt doesn't) and drawing a card. But right now it's not doing much outside of the pod matchup. I guess it can kill spellskite too.
My decks:
-Modern UWR gifts control
-Modern Mono-G aggro elves
-Azami, Lady of Scrolls EDH
-Glissa the Traitor EDH
-Modern UWR Counterbalance Control
-Modern UW enchantment control: primer, on tapped out
-Modern regular UWR control
Shadow of Doubt seems a bit too focused. It's basically a nice counterspell that doesn't counter what you really want to counter (like Karn). As far as the SB removal spells, right now I'm just running a Flame Slash, a Combust, a Shattering Spree, a Threads of Disloyalty, and a Pyroclasm; and pick the best 3-5 depending on the matchup. It seems to work better trying to figure out the perfect 2 SB removal slots.
4 Splinter Twin
4 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pertermite
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Serum Vision
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Dismember
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Dispel
2 Spell Pierce
1 Stomping Ground
2 Halimar Depths
2 Cascade Bluffs
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Mountain
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
I've been thinking about cutting the pierce by snag.
SB:
2 Spellskite
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Echoing Truth
2 Negate
2 Pyroclasm
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
I'm going to play in local stores and don't expect too much of the 1000$ jund decks... my friends are currently playing 2 scapeshift, soul sisters, kiki pod and GW aura... so i also really like your idea of ''Shadow of Doubt'' in the sideboard,
What kind of results do you have with your current list? I do have 2 unused snapcaster that i could put in the main, but i haven't found what the remove for them... Are you happy with 23 lands?
Seem like more echoing truth are needed in the side no? do you ever get to that point were the game is just stuck with a stupid card and you simply can't win?
And finally on a totally different topics... what are the cards that this deck really don't what to see in play... I have a general idea like, thoughseize, lilianna, limvalla, spellskite, I'm assuming other crap like worship are annoying if they resolve... I never thought about abrupt decay.. but reading this thread made me realize how this very simple card can slows us a lot with not much to do (so i'll just hope to dodge them). what else should i exepect to often ruin my day?
Combust. That card is incredibly annoying and it actually made me lose against a Tron deck... I was going to combo next turn but he managed to produce red mana with an egg and combust my exarch, totally caught me by surprise lol. He slowed me down enough to bring out lovely big 15/15 monsters :p:p
23 Lands
4 Splinter Twin
4 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pertermite
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Serum Vision
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Remand
2 Spellskite
2 Dispel
2 Spell Pierce
SD:
3 Blood Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Negate
1 Pyroclasm
1 Mizuim Skin
1 Dismember
1 Combust
1 Echoing Truth
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Edit: I don't think twin needs Rapid hybridization. It's more important for twin to have versatile answer cards as there are so many different types of hate cards.
What do u guys think about simic charm though?
I think it actually fits better into twin than Boros charm.
The 'save a man' effect is roughly the same on both charms. Neither the doublestrike nor the +3/+3 are especially relevant (though the pump is better). It comes down to mana and the third ability. Some decks already splash green, but it's not a very deep splash, and is easy to drop if needed; so that's not too much of a consideration. In the end it pretty much all comes down to bounce vs. 4 damage to a player. I'm inclined to feel that, unless something from Jund gets banned, Boros is more valuable, just because it kills a +1'd Liliana. I'm not certain that's enough to run it, but probably enough to at least try it out.
I'd rather play Simic Charm because I'm still worried about Path to Exile (and not as much about Back to Nature). I've also found booting opposing creatures useful if I already have Dispel.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
The creature-bouncing mode is also relevant if you're on a Pod- or GW Hate Bears-filled meta (i.e. you keep staring down Linvala, Qasali Pridemage, Thalia, etc.).
If you're against UR Storm, bouncing their Goblin Electromancer mid-combo can be relevant, while the Hexproof-granting often wouldn't. (But then again, my post-Song-ban UR Storm list started losing significantly more often to RDW pre-board, so I'm not sure how viable Storm will be come February.)
If your Exarch Twin opponent is attempting to combo off, bouncing their dude in response to Splinter Twin is better than nothing (or granting Hexproof to your untouched guys).
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB