Yeah. Even if the result is 'no bueno' it's still worth discussing. The criticisms and points made so far are all valid and I appreciate the time taken to respond.
My gut feeling is that it could be a one-of in certain builds. The ability to go sort of "hard infinite" is definitely new, and unexplored territory for this deck. I'm not done considering the ramifications of that one aspect yet, so haven't really formed an opinion either way. 7 mana is a lot though, that much is clear and a definite mark against it as an inclusion.
Keep up the chatter guys, glad to have you on board.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
My overall opinion of Nexus of Fate is that we don't need it. It doesn't fill any role we're missing since self-mill is almost never a thing you need to worry about, and being an Instant is almost irrelevant (perhaps even a downside if you have a lot of Dispel in your meta).
However, I want to clarify some things about it that seem to be misunderstood.
Nexus of fate is only valid if you get all of your mines off the table before the loop really.
Because Nexus of Fate is an Instant, you can cast it in response to your Mine trigger(s). Meaning if you have one Nexus of Fate in your deck and X Mine effects on board, you can prevent decking by spending 7(X+1) mana per turn to repeatedly put Nexus back into your deck. If you can discard one or more Nexuses (Nexi?) to hand size at EOT, you get to spend 7 less mana per discarded Nexus. Realistically, this is only useful with exactly one Mine out or nearly as many As Foretold on 7+ counters as you have Mines. Again, not really useful, but worth understanding.
Nexus of Fate can still loop through a Rest in Peace if you want it to, but you have to want it. Both Nexus of Fate and Rest in Peace have replacement effects. RIP reads: "If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead." Nexus reads: "If Nexus of Fate would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Nexus of Fate and shuffle it into its owner's library instead." Because there are two replacement effects trying to replace the same event (Nexus going to a graveyard), the affected object's controller or owner (that's you!) chooses a replacement effect to apply until there are no more replacement effects left to apply. The example given in the comprehensive rules is:
Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads “If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it,” and the other is a creature that reads “If [this creature] would die, instead shuffle it into its owner’s library.” If the creature is destroyed, its controller decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.
My overall opinion of Nexus of Fate is that we don't need it. It doesn't fill any role we're missing since self-mill is almost never a thing you need to worry about, and being an Instant is almost irrelevant (perhaps even a downside if you have a lot of Dispel in your meta).
However, I want to clarify some things about it that seem to be misunderstood.
Nexus of fate is only valid if you get all of your mines off the table before the loop really.
Because Nexus of Fate is an Instant, you can cast it in response to your Mine trigger(s). Meaning if you have one Nexus of Fate in your deck and X Mine effects on board, you can prevent decking by spending 7(X+1) mana per turn to repeatedly put Nexus back into your deck. If you can discard one or more Nexuses (Nexi?) to hand size at EOT, you get to spend 7 less mana per discarded Nexus. Realistically, this is only useful with exactly one Mine out or nearly as many As Foretold on 7+ counters as you have Mines. Again, not really useful, but worth understanding.
Nexus of Fate can still loop through a Rest in Peace if you want it to, but you have to want it. Both Nexus of Fate and Rest in Peace have replacement effects. RIP reads: "If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead." Nexus reads: "If Nexus of Fate would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Nexus of Fate and shuffle it into its owner's library instead." Because there are two replacement effects trying to replace the same event (Nexus going to a graveyard), the affected object's controller or owner (that's you!) chooses a replacement effect to apply until there are no more replacement effects left to apply. The example given in the comprehensive rules is:
Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads “If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it,” and the other is a creature that reads “If [this creature] would die, instead shuffle it into its owner’s library.” If the creature is destroyed, its controller decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.
Ahh gotcha, I was thinking the RIP would trump if you didn't own it (not that it's a good card to board against this deck anyway). Thanks for the clarification.
The as foretold interaction of looping per mouse he is actually pretty smexi and ainhadnt considered it. Although corner case kind of, it's a good point.
Yeah.. I sort of agree with everyone's opinion on Nexus of Fate... I think if you really did want to make the deck work then you would probably want to build the deck more so around Jace (having 2-3 copies) and As Foretold. I just don't see where it would be any more consistent or fun to play then the traditional...
From my time with this deck, the worst hands I see are always ones with a temporal mastery or two in it because paying 7 mana is far worse then 2... and for that reason I think having a Nexus in hand would feel even worse since brainstorming it would do nothing.
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My overall opinion of Nexus of Fate is that we don't need it. It doesn't fill any role we're missing since self-mill is almost never a thing you need to worry about, and being an Instant is almost irrelevant (perhaps even a downside if you have a lot of Dispel in your meta).
However, I want to clarify some things about it that seem to be misunderstood.
Nexus of fate is only valid if you get all of your mines off the table before the loop really.
Because Nexus of Fate is an Instant, you can cast it in response to your Mine trigger(s). Meaning if you have one Nexus of Fate in your deck and X Mine effects on board, you can prevent decking by spending 7(X+1) mana per turn to repeatedly put Nexus back into your deck. If you can discard one or more Nexuses (Nexi?) to hand size at EOT, you get to spend 7 less mana per discarded Nexus. Realistically, this is only useful with exactly one Mine out or nearly as many As Foretold on 7+ counters as you have Mines. Again, not really useful, but worth understanding.
Nexus of Fate can still loop through a Rest in Peace if you want it to, but you have to want it. Both Nexus of Fate and Rest in Peace have replacement effects. RIP reads: "If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead." Nexus reads: "If Nexus of Fate would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Nexus of Fate and shuffle it into its owner's library instead." Because there are two replacement effects trying to replace the same event (Nexus going to a graveyard), the affected object's controller or owner (that's you!) chooses a replacement effect to apply until there are no more replacement effects left to apply. The example given in the comprehensive rules is:
Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads “If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it,” and the other is a creature that reads “If [this creature] would die, instead shuffle it into its owner’s library.” If the creature is destroyed, its controller decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.
Ahh gotcha, I was thinking the RIP would trump if you didn't own it (not that it's a good card to board against this deck anyway). Thanks for the clarification.
The as foretold interaction of looping per mouse he is actually pretty smexi and ainhadnt considered it. Although corner case kind of, it's a good point.
It's possible that you were thinking of the interaction between Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Rest in Peace. Since Emrakul has a triggered ability when she's put into a graveyard (as opposed to Nexus of Fate's replacement effect), Rest in Peace would exile her before that ability happens, so Emrakul would never get shuffled in. In that sense, Nexus is a better anti-mill card than Emrakul since Nexus actually works through a RIP. However, this is the most corner-case of corner-case scenarios, so it's extremely unlikely to ever matter.
From my time with this deck, the worst hands I see are always ones with a temporal mastery or two in it because paying 7 mana is far worse then 2... and for that reason I think having a Nexus in hand would feel even worse since brainstorming it would do nothing.
Anyone ready to share their GP Vegas lists? I am planning on trying a black or white splash this summer after playing mono-U for 2 years, so looking for any feedback.
I have been running the White splash for about 2 1/2 years. For the many, many reasons why and lists of sideboard options review my older posts. The Uw version packs the best sideboard hate in modern, thats why I keep my splash. When I test monoblue I feel like its slightly more efficient but far less potent.
I will say the Ub version has the option to pack more mainboard interaction (like Collective Brutality) and has more proactive options (like Thoughtsieze) it can bring in from the side. And yes, it can also produce a respectively powerful sideboard. The real question is weather you prefer a more proactive or preventative style of play, and which has the edge in the current meta?
Great question. For me, any deck worth bringing in hate for, knows about it, plans for it, and many are main decking answers for that hate. For me, and the fact you cannot 'hate' on low to the ground aggro, the swing cards are Fatal Push, Collective Brutality, and IoK/Thoughtseize. They do just enough, without getting blown out by a Natures Claim or something, to get us there.
Great question. For me, any deck worth bringing in hate for, knows about it, plans for it, and many are main decking answers for that hate. For me, and the fact you cannot 'hate' on low to the ground aggro, the swing cards are Fatal Push, Collective Brutality, and IoK/Thoughtseize. They do just enough, without getting blown out by a Natures Claim or something, to get us there.
It's tough because I think Collective Brutality is literally the perfect card right now in the meta as it does so many useful things however it's huge drawback is it's escalate cost of discarding cards from hand... That's why I think white is favorable because a lot of the sideboard options don't have as big of set backs.
Plus you get access to like Terminus and that is just unbeatable for a lot of decks..
WHY DON"T WE JUST GO ESPER! lol
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It's tough because I think Collective Brutality is literally the perfect card right now in the meta as it does so many useful things however it's huge drawback is it's escalate cost of discarding cards from hand... That's why I think white is favorable because a lot of the sideboard options don't have as big of set backs.
Plus you get access to like Terminus and that is just unbeatable for a lot of decks..
WHY DON"T WE JUST GO ESPER! lol
I just went red instead.
Pyroclasm for the go wide decks, a mixed suite of counters (including a counterflux) for spell based decks, a keranos for grindy matches and against everything else we're pretty favoured anyway. Thing in the ice goes a long way.
I also considered running bolts but haven't got quite that far yet. Would probably replace gigadrowses if I did, but that's hypothetical.
Ancestral vision is good in this build. My list is broadly the same as I've posted previously. If you can't find it, I'll repost it for you no probs.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
The nuts would be:
Turn One: Land Drop, Noble Hierarch.
Turn Two: Land Drop, Rites of Flourishing, Land Drop (possibly cast another 1 drop)
Turn three:Land Drop, Land Drop, Time warp with dispel/spell pierce backup, or 6 drop turn spell, or exhaustion + a second engine.
The potential to go to combotown before your opponent has any hope of reducing your life total by 20 points really makes this build appealing. But those hands where your Noble Hierarch or Bird of Paradise get bolted/pathed/pushed before you can do anything will suck. Letting them have a second land drop per turn is also particularly dangerous, and makes exhaustion much worse. ButRites of flourishing could make Savor the moment playable.
There are some versions out there that try that sort of thing with like Nissa, Steward of Elements and then like Courser of Kruphix and Utopia Sprawl but every stream always ends with how it isn't worth it..
Like the mana ramp seems nice on paper being able to combo a turn earlier or so but 80% of the time it ends in dead draws
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There are some versions out there that try that sort of thing with like Nissa, Steward of Elements and then like Courser of Kruphix and Utopia Sprawl but every stream always ends with how it isn't worth it..
Like the mana ramp seems nice on paper being able to combo a turn earlier or so but 80% of the time it ends in dead draws
indeed.
adding ramp reduces your ability to interact. you become a deck that races to the combo in order to beat other strategies, but probably aren't as good at it as, say, Ad Nauseam.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
regarding the "go infinite" route i used to play emrakul with gaier reach sanitarium for that reason. shuffling everything back let me ultimating original jace twice easier (: instead of bouncing everything a single jace as a wincondition in infinite turns looks better imho!
regarding the "go infinite" route i used to play emrakul with gaier reach sanitarium for that reason. shuffling everything back let me ultimating original jace twice easier (: instead of bouncing everything a single jace as a wincondition in infinite turns looks better imho!
No reason why the infinite list cant do both. The Eye of Nowhere could easily be replaced with other cards and still have "bouncing all their permanents" be a thing that the deck just happens to do as it rips through turns. And the Delver of Secrets could be any pet win cons you like. Ive always been a fan of Jace Beleren and Thassa as win conditions because they both also help your card draw/quality.
but Laboratory Maniac would work out just fine as well. The hypothetical list I posted at the top of the page could easily look more like:
This version is light (perhaps too light) on early interaction with the added benefit of having way more inevitability once it starts comboing. And yes I think this version can find a way to squeeze in Emrakul if the pilot wants to, we certainly can get to 15 mana to hard cast her.
Here's a weird question for everyone that I have had for a while and can't really reach a conclusion on from playing the deck..
Do you think As foretold can work alongside Dictate of Kruphix/Howling Mine
Im thinking 1x As Foretold, 3 Dictate, 2 Howling Mine
From what I've played it feels really good once it gets to 2 counters and up; however, it also feels like by then you are already winning anyhow...
Just wondering what everyone's opinion is on As Foretold
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Here's a weird question for everyone that I have had for a while and can't really reach a conclusion on from playing the deck..
Do you think As foretold can work alongside Dictate of Kruphix/Howling Mine
Im thinking 1x As Foretold, 3 Dictate, 2 Howling Mine
From what I've played it feels really good once it gets to 2 counters and up; however, it also feels like by then you are already winning anyhow...
Just wondering what everyone's opinion is on As Foretold
It feels very win more. Its not going to win you the game without a Mine effect, its taking up precious deck slot(s) but if you get both, its like getting both Teferi and Jace on board as UWR Control.
In your split, you are going down a mine, does As Foretold ever win you the game without a mine? Its not like Thing in the Ice that CAN win you the game without a mine effect.
I tried As Foretold, but yeah it just felt like 'well I'm at the point I'm going to win anyway'. Same as when I played Turns Approach. Felt like a very stable win con, but...you can win with whatever you want once we are taking turns.
Very true.. the reason I think it could be good is for matchups where mana denial is a concern.. I have won games with as foretold alone against RG Ponza and other mana denial styled decks since it gets around their casting cost.. and even on two it allows you to pass turn with a free remand...
It stinks because not enough people bring Taking Turns to big tournaments so we don't have hard data on what is the best like Jeskai and other Tier 1 decks; however, I feel like with proper tweaking this deck could be a Tier 1 given it's way of winning leaves very little interaction by the opponent..
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My gut feeling is that it could be a one-of in certain builds. The ability to go sort of "hard infinite" is definitely new, and unexplored territory for this deck. I'm not done considering the ramifications of that one aspect yet, so haven't really formed an opinion either way. 7 mana is a lot though, that much is clear and a definite mark against it as an inclusion.
Keep up the chatter guys, glad to have you on board.
However, I want to clarify some things about it that seem to be misunderstood.
Because Nexus of Fate is an Instant, you can cast it in response to your Mine trigger(s). Meaning if you have one Nexus of Fate in your deck and X Mine effects on board, you can prevent decking by spending 7(X+1) mana per turn to repeatedly put Nexus back into your deck. If you can discard one or more Nexuses (Nexi?) to hand size at EOT, you get to spend 7 less mana per discarded Nexus. Realistically, this is only useful with exactly one Mine out or nearly as many As Foretold on 7+ counters as you have Mines. Again, not really useful, but worth understanding.
Nexus of Fate can still loop through a Rest in Peace if you want it to, but you have to want it. Both Nexus of Fate and Rest in Peace have replacement effects. RIP reads: "If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead." Nexus reads: "If Nexus of Fate would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Nexus of Fate and shuffle it into its owner's library instead." Because there are two replacement effects trying to replace the same event (Nexus going to a graveyard), the affected object's controller or owner (that's you!) chooses a replacement effect to apply until there are no more replacement effects left to apply. The example given in the comprehensive rules is:
Ahh gotcha, I was thinking the RIP would trump if you didn't own it (not that it's a good card to board against this deck anyway). Thanks for the clarification.
The as foretold interaction of looping per mouse he is actually pretty smexi and ainhadnt considered it. Although corner case kind of, it's a good point.
From my time with this deck, the worst hands I see are always ones with a temporal mastery or two in it because paying 7 mana is far worse then 2... and for that reason I think having a Nexus in hand would feel even worse since brainstorming it would do nothing.
I agree with this 100%.
I have been running the White splash for about 2 1/2 years. For the many, many reasons why and lists of sideboard options review my older posts. The Uw version packs the best sideboard hate in modern, thats why I keep my splash. When I test monoblue I feel like its slightly more efficient but far less potent.
I will say the Ub version has the option to pack more mainboard interaction (like Collective Brutality) and has more proactive options (like Thoughtsieze) it can bring in from the side. And yes, it can also produce a respectively powerful sideboard. The real question is weather you prefer a more proactive or preventative style of play, and which has the edge in the current meta?
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
Spirits
I always felt white did a pretty good job of providing options to stop fast aggro.
Some are overperformers
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
I've done the White splash, probably over a year or even 2 ago (sad how old am I....) but black feels better right now, to me. :]
Spirits
Plus you get access to like Terminus and that is just unbeatable for a lot of decks..
WHY DON"T WE JUST GO ESPER! lol
I just went red instead.
Pyroclasm for the go wide decks, a mixed suite of counters (including a counterflux) for spell based decks, a keranos for grindy matches and against everything else we're pretty favoured anyway. Thing in the ice goes a long way.
I also considered running bolts but haven't got quite that far yet. Would probably replace gigadrowses if I did, but that's hypothetical.
Ancestral vision is good in this build. My list is broadly the same as I've posted previously. If you can't find it, I'll repost it for you no probs.
The nuts would be:
Turn One: Land Drop, Noble Hierarch.
Turn Two: Land Drop, Rites of Flourishing, Land Drop (possibly cast another 1 drop)
Turn three:Land Drop, Land Drop, Time warp with dispel/spell pierce backup, or 6 drop turn spell, or exhaustion + a second engine.
The potential to go to combotown before your opponent has any hope of reducing your life total by 20 points really makes this build appealing. But those hands where your Noble Hierarch or Bird of Paradise get bolted/pathed/pushed before you can do anything will suck. Letting them have a second land drop per turn is also particularly dangerous, and makes exhaustion much worse. But Rites of flourishing could make Savor the moment playable.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
Like the mana ramp seems nice on paper being able to combo a turn earlier or so but 80% of the time it ends in dead draws
indeed.
adding ramp reduces your ability to interact. you become a deck that races to the combo in order to beat other strategies, but probably aren't as good at it as, say, Ad Nauseam.
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
No reason why the infinite list cant do both. The Eye of Nowhere could easily be replaced with other cards and still have "bouncing all their permanents" be a thing that the deck just happens to do as it rips through turns. And the Delver of Secrets could be any pet win cons you like. Ive always been a fan of Jace Beleren and Thassa as win conditions because they both also help your card draw/quality.
but Laboratory Maniac would work out just fine as well. The hypothetical list I posted at the top of the page could easily look more like:
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Serum visions
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Elixir of Immortality
4 Boomerang
4 Dictate of Kruphix
1 Jace Beleren
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Cryptic Command
3 Walk the Aeons
2 Nexus of Fate
1 Part the Waterveil
This version is light (perhaps too light) on early interaction with the added benefit of having way more inevitability once it starts comboing. And yes I think this version can find a way to squeeze in Emrakul if the pilot wants to, we certainly can get to 15 mana to hard cast her.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
Do you think As foretold can work alongside Dictate of Kruphix/Howling Mine
Im thinking 1x As Foretold, 3 Dictate, 2 Howling Mine
From what I've played it feels really good once it gets to 2 counters and up; however, it also feels like by then you are already winning anyhow...
Just wondering what everyone's opinion is on As Foretold
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
It feels very win more. Its not going to win you the game without a Mine effect, its taking up precious deck slot(s) but if you get both, its like getting both Teferi and Jace on board as UWR Control.
In your split, you are going down a mine, does As Foretold ever win you the game without a mine? Its not like Thing in the Ice that CAN win you the game without a mine effect.
I tried As Foretold, but yeah it just felt like 'well I'm at the point I'm going to win anyway'. Same as when I played Turns Approach. Felt like a very stable win con, but...you can win with whatever you want once we are taking turns.
Spirits
It stinks because not enough people bring Taking Turns to big tournaments so we don't have hard data on what is the best like Jeskai and other Tier 1 decks; however, I feel like with proper tweaking this deck could be a Tier 1 given it's way of winning leaves very little interaction by the opponent..