I guess the moral of my story is that as much as I don't like it, I am abandoning trying to play the control role; it's just not an effective strategy in today's Modern.
If you're playing delver and trying to be control, you are doing it wrong. Against everything but legit aggro and sometime abzan/kind, delver should be the aggressor.
For a couple months I was having great luck with the Control/Delver hybrid list (described in a previous post). It ran fewer threats, more counters, and did a great job running SV + counters first few turns, then land a threat which can be protected. Now that nobody is running interaction (obvious over exaggeration), I have shifted my game plan heavily to prioritizing being the aggressor. This is coming from a Twin background; I want to be playing a reactive game.
I'm in the same boat. I was playing a more reactive list for a while, but recently switched back to Young Peezy/Probe. My win percentage has gone up, and honestly I've been having more fun being able to play an aggressive control deck. I love the fact that our deck can be switched up 180 degrees whenever we feel like it.
Is Dreadbore/Hero's Downfall even necesary now? I'm running 1 Dreadbore in the side because it's just nice to have a way to deal with walkers, but I have a feeling it could be replaced with anything else. I also think Collective Brutality could go in the main.
Is Dreadbore/Hero's Downfall even necesary now? I'm running 1 Dreadbore in the side because it's just nice to have a way to deal with walkers, but I have a feeling it could be replaced with anything else. I also think Collective Brutality could go in the main.
I still have Dreadbore as a 1 of because, while I never see Nahiri locally, it's randomly good against Liliana or any other PW (Grixis does NOT deal with PWs well). I have tons of other creature removal too (and Snapcaster) so I never felt like I didn't have enough. Also, I would never run Downfall either way. 3 mana spells need to be stupidly good to justify playing them (like K Command). Collective Brutality is great in some matchups and just OK in others. I cut my 3rd Remand for a Brutality in the main and have felt good. Don't know if the right number is 1 or 2 or if the right place is main or side though. But I'd say it single-handedly helped me win against my 4th round spell-based Burn opponent. Duress + gain/drain 2 life is pretty good.
Thanks for that reply. What changes would you recommend to my list? Considering my local meta with a bit of everything, but leaning towards linear strategies. There's also the ocassional fringe deck of course. In my meta there's Abzan, Jund, Affinity, Burn, Eldrazi variants, Tron, at least 3 or 4 other Grixis, and a few Infect. My list is:
Thanks for that reply. What changes would you recommend to my list? Considering my local meta with a bit of everything, but leaning towards linear strategies. There's also the ocassional fringe deck of course. In my meta there's Abzan, Jund, Affinity, Burn, Eldrazi variants, Tron, at least 3 or 4 other Grixis, and a few Infect. My list is:
I'm no expert in what is best, but I can at least share the decisions I made and why I made them.
+ Young Pyromancer: YP is a ridiculous threat that can win games on his own if unanswered. I already used to run as a 1 of and now run 3. If the list wasn't so tight, I'd run 4.
+ Gitaxian Probe: Works great for YP, but also works great in seeing exactly what your opponent has (which allows you to play around certain things or purposely bait cards out of their hand)
- Counterspells: I love counterspells, but all the removal works great already against small creature decks and counters do nothing against Eldrazi. I only run 3 counters main (2 remand 1 snare) and another 4-5 in the side (3 Squall 2-3 Dispel).
- Vendilion Clique: I hate this card in this build. It dies to everything, they get to draw a card, and it costs 3 mana. It definitely CAN have it's up sides, but ever since I moved from Delver to Twin, I want all my threats to cost 2 or less.
- Elecrtolyze: I don't know if this is correct, but I don't personally like it. It might be good against small creatures, but it's also 3 mana in a deck that runs 18-20 lands. If this effect is still wanted, I suggest Forked Bolt. You trade a card and instant speed for a single R casting cost. When many games are decided in the first few turns, this card can be great.
Maybe Pillar of Flame instead of Magma Spray? I still don't know if one is objectively better than the other, but I do like the idea to hit someone's face for 2 in a format where damage racing is king (I also run 1 pillar main, 1 more side). Anger of the Gods side is probably a good choice (or a second Engineered Explosives). Dealing with wide strategies can be difficult. Moving Dreadbore to the main could make room.
Additional Slaughter Pact or Murderous Cut in the sideboard could be helpful too. Like against Goyfs and Eldrazi.
I couldn't say definitively that this direction for the deck is correct, but it has felt much better and more powerful than it used to (my list looked strikingly similar to yours previously).
I largely second fusion.
On a different note, brutality is largely a SB card against burn, though if you wanted 1 main it's not the end of the world. A single dreadbore can be good if you see a lot of walkers in your area, but the only real reason for downfall is if you are really, really scared of colonnade.
Last, what is people opinions on a singleton squall MD? It get in some damage and improves the MU against said walkers but isn't a huge liability elsewhere. (I throw my weight behind denial, but you all don't like it for whatever reason)
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
Last, what is people opinions on a singleton squall MD?
Feels perfect when it hits the target. But during testings I often found myself in a spot where I'd better have Leak or Remand. Sitting with 2 mana open and not being able to counter their creature threat is huge tempo loss.
Also, I think that Collective Brutality is not mainboard card. It does nothing against Tron&stuff and in general isn't as versatile as, for example, Kollaghan's Command. On the other hand, metagame is so aggressive right now that we can close eyes on that.
@user_84544, I'd recommmend Forked Bolt as the 5th bolt. Ive really been liking.
Has anyone been testing Ceremonious Rejection? I mainly play online, and there's a lot of hybrid tron eldrazi / tron which is painful to play against. Against Eldrazi Rejection might not be useful when they find Cavern. Is it still worth the slot tho?
Also, I am in for cutting Sulfur Falls for Spirebluff. I'd rather have an untapped UR between 1-3, than a T1 untapped.(maybe one should have muliganed) The consequence of having tapped UR T4-x is less crucial as we are mana intensive early.
You should def. Drop snare out of the board. Rejection is quite good in a variety of MU's aside from Tron/drazi such as affinity, lantern, and the various tezzeret decks. I wouldn't recommend more than 2 though as it does have limited usage.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
Has anybody tried a Bedlam Reveler to strengthen the late game power of the deck? It's not exactly lacking already, but could push it over the top of other fair decks by rebuying it with K Command.
I've been running three Angler and two Tasi, I'd shave an Angler for it.
I've also been wondering about the Dredge matchup and how bad it is, Crypt Incursion seems pretty strong, and it can do work vs Burn too. I've not had a chance to test it yet though.
You don't want to run _any_ delve guys with your Revelers. It takes long enough in a normal control shell to hit enough GY spells for a RR or 1RR cast, if you're also delving its going to be a dead card.
A 2nd basic would help with moon alot. That said, I would only cut basic mountain if you don't see ghost quarter anywhere.
Also, crypt incursion Seems like sweet tech against dredge. Would also be good against living end. My only concern is if we aren't better off with rakdos charm as that will just nuke everything and has some applications outside of dredge/end (lantern, merfolk, sometimes others)
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
I've been using Rakdos Charm, and would recommend it. I was sceptical first as well, but it has been pretty good. Crypt Incursion is sweet, but think it would be to narrow. I even managed to use the "each creature deals dmg to its controller" vs. dredge to finish him off one time.
Hey all, just wanted to ask a sideboard question real quick. I switched to the pyro version after the less aggressive build started performing worse and worse for me. I used to have a pretty easy sideboard method of taking out delver when I knew he was gonna get bolted or otherwise removed. Now that there's more threats do you guys side out young pyromancer and delver against stuff like jund/ jeskai or leave them in? So far I've been leaving all threats and going lighter on cantrips game 2 but it's hard to tell if this is correct. For reference I'm just running the 4 delver, 4 delve creatures, 3 young pyro and a smugglers copter (I know, bad, but I love the card).
cutting out one of your color's basic lands completely opens up the possibility of being ghost quartered out of that color. I do it to Burn all the time to lock them out of White, but thats because I know the typical list has no Plains. Now, maybe the opponents will just assume you, like all the other Grixis lists, have 2 islands 1 mountain 1 swamp minimum.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I had rakdos charm, but as I only boarded it in against a few MUs and those were either rare (lantern, merfolk, dredge, living end) or not particularly important in the board (company) it has since been dropped for a sudden shock. Speaking of, can anyone recommend another way to help against infect? Currently I'm bringing in stratocaster, site, moon, and shock.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
I had rakdos charm, but as I only boarded it in against a few MUs and those were either rare (lantern, merfolk, dredge, living end) or not particularly important in the board (company) it has since been dropped for a sudden shock. Speaking of, can anyone recommend another way to help against infect? Currently I'm bringing in stratocaster, site, moon, and shock.
Probably we got our MB card, terminate backed with some counter spell against their infect+Vine. Just beware some spellskite. Best sb would be engineered explosive i would say.
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I'm in the same boat. I was playing a more reactive list for a while, but recently switched back to Young Peezy/Probe. My win percentage has gone up, and honestly I've been having more fun being able to play an aggressive control deck. I love the fact that our deck can be switched up 180 degrees whenever we feel like it.
BGX Midrange
URX Control
I still have Dreadbore as a 1 of because, while I never see Nahiri locally, it's randomly good against Liliana or any other PW (Grixis does NOT deal with PWs well). I have tons of other creature removal too (and Snapcaster) so I never felt like I didn't have enough. Also, I would never run Downfall either way. 3 mana spells need to be stupidly good to justify playing them (like K Command). Collective Brutality is great in some matchups and just OK in others. I cut my 3rd Remand for a Brutality in the main and have felt good. Don't know if the right number is 1 or 2 or if the right place is main or side though. But I'd say it single-handedly helped me win against my 4th round spell-based Burn opponent. Duress + gain/drain 2 life is pretty good.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Darkslick Shores
Creatures
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Gurmag Angler
4x Serum Visions
4x Thought Scour
Counterspells
3x Mana Leak
3x Spell Snare
2x Remand
1x Spell Pierce
Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Terminate
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Electrolyze
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Vandalblast
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Magma Spray
2x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Collective Brutality
1x Dreadbore
I'm no expert in what is best, but I can at least share the decisions I made and why I made them.
+ Young Pyromancer: YP is a ridiculous threat that can win games on his own if unanswered. I already used to run as a 1 of and now run 3. If the list wasn't so tight, I'd run 4.
+ Gitaxian Probe: Works great for YP, but also works great in seeing exactly what your opponent has (which allows you to play around certain things or purposely bait cards out of their hand)
- Counterspells: I love counterspells, but all the removal works great already against small creature decks and counters do nothing against Eldrazi. I only run 3 counters main (2 remand 1 snare) and another 4-5 in the side (3 Squall 2-3 Dispel).
- Vendilion Clique: I hate this card in this build. It dies to everything, they get to draw a card, and it costs 3 mana. It definitely CAN have it's up sides, but ever since I moved from Delver to Twin, I want all my threats to cost 2 or less.
- Elecrtolyze: I don't know if this is correct, but I don't personally like it. It might be good against small creatures, but it's also 3 mana in a deck that runs 18-20 lands. If this effect is still wanted, I suggest Forked Bolt. You trade a card and instant speed for a single R casting cost. When many games are decided in the first few turns, this card can be great.
Maybe Pillar of Flame instead of Magma Spray? I still don't know if one is objectively better than the other, but I do like the idea to hit someone's face for 2 in a format where damage racing is king (I also run 1 pillar main, 1 more side).
Anger of the Gods side is probably a good choice (or a second Engineered Explosives). Dealing with wide strategies can be difficult. Moving Dreadbore to the main could make room.
Additional Slaughter Pact or Murderous Cut in the sideboard could be helpful too. Like against Goyfs and Eldrazi.
I couldn't say definitively that this direction for the deck is correct, but it has felt much better and more powerful than it used to (my list looked strikingly similar to yours previously).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
On a different note, brutality is largely a SB card against burn, though if you wanted 1 main it's not the end of the world. A single dreadbore can be good if you see a lot of walkers in your area, but the only real reason for downfall is if you are really, really scared of colonnade.
Last, what is people opinions on a singleton squall MD? It get in some damage and improves the MU against said walkers but isn't a huge liability elsewhere. (I throw my weight behind denial, but you all don't like it for whatever reason)
Primers
4C Walkers
Feels perfect when it hits the target. But during testings I often found myself in a spot where I'd better have Leak or Remand. Sitting with 2 mana open and not being able to counter their creature threat is huge tempo loss.
Also, I think that Collective Brutality is not mainboard card. It does nothing against Tron&stuff and in general isn't as versatile as, for example, Kollaghan's Command. On the other hand, metagame is so aggressive right now that we can close eyes on that.
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Polluted Delta
4x Spirebluff Canal
2x Island
1x Swamp
2x Steam Vents
2x Watery Grave
Creatures
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3x Young Pyromancer
4x Serum Visions
4x Thought Scour
2x Gitaxian Probe
Counterspells
2x Mana Leak
2x Spell Snare
1x Remand
Removal
1x Burst Lightning
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Dismember
4x Terminate
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Electrolyze
1x Gurmag Angler
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Magma Spray
2x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Spell Snare
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Kolaghan's Command
I'm running this atm. Mana base feels awesome and so does Pyromancer. I usually swap them out for Gurmag and Pia and Kirans against bolt decks.
Has anyone been testing Ceremonious Rejection? I mainly play online, and there's a lot of hybrid tron eldrazi / tron which is painful to play against. Against Eldrazi Rejection might not be useful when they find Cavern. Is it still worth the slot tho?
Also, I am in for cutting Sulfur Falls for Spirebluff. I'd rather have an untapped UR between 1-3, than a T1 untapped.(maybe one should have muliganed) The consequence of having tapped UR T4-x is less crucial as we are mana intensive early.
This is my list:
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
2x Spirebluff Canal
2x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
26Sorc/Inst
1x Forked Bolt
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Serum Visions
1x Electrolyze
1x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
1x Murderous Cut
2x Spell Snare
2x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
4x Delver of Secrets
1x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3x Young Pyromancer
2x Collective Brutality
2x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Dreadbore
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Magma Spray
2x Painful Truths
2x Rakdos Charm
1x Spell Snare
My first cut would probably be -1 Spell Snare, and Magma Spray for Rejection, but I'd love some input if someone has experience with it-
Modern
ResidentSleeper
Legacy
UWRUWr MiracleRWU
Primers
4C Walkers
I've been running three Angler and two Tasi, I'd shave an Angler for it.
I've also been wondering about the Dredge matchup and how bad it is, Crypt Incursion seems pretty strong, and it can do work vs Burn too. I've not had a chance to test it yet though.
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Serum Visions
1 Dreadbore
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dispel
1 Electrolyze
3 Terminate
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
1 Collective Brutality
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Spirebluff Canal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Blood Moon
2 Crypt Incursion
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Countersquall
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Dispel
2 Molten Rain
What Class Are You?
Replacement threats that work with Reveler:
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Also, crypt incursion Seems like sweet tech against dredge. Would also be good against living end. My only concern is if we aren't better off with rakdos charm as that will just nuke everything and has some applications outside of dredge/end (lantern, merfolk, sometimes others)
Primers
4C Walkers
Modern
ResidentSleeper
Legacy
UWRUWr MiracleRWU
1 Dispel
1 Flashfreeze
1 Collective Brutality
1 Countersquall
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Painful Truths
2 Spellskite
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Primers
4C Walkers
Probably we got our MB card, terminate backed with some counter spell against their infect+Vine. Just beware some spellskite. Best sb would be engineered explosive i would say.