Hey people, I went 3-0-1 last night with this list at my FNM. Wins against Infect (2-0), Elves (2-0) and Affinity (2-1) and a draw against UW Tron (I had lethal on the table on T4 and he couldn't stop me, needed only 1 turn). Surprisingly UW Tron is much easier than GR Tron and it is easier to execute an aggressive plan against them. Infect is quite easy, Affinity depends on the draw and Elves, mainboard damnation is sick.
- I love the 1-of Rise // Fall and Liliana of the Veil. I think this can push the discard package from being disrupting to backbreaking with only a few slots. Almost want to see a 2nd Rise//Fall, but I understand why it is a 1-of.
- 4 Kolaghan's Command is a LOT. The card did a ton of work for him though. Without the counter package, I don't know if there is much else to slot here instead, aside spicy things. Maybe Electrolyze?
- Dismember as the 1-of B removal is interesting. I think I would prefer Go for the Throat, just to hit Titans and avoid skites, but curious to see what others think.
- The 1 Blackcleave Cliffs seems super weird to me. Sure, you could start with it and turn 1 IoK, but if that is important in the plan, I would think more than one would be preferred. As-is, it seems like this would be a Guild Gate the majority of the time, and might be better as a 9th fetch or something. Curious to hear opinions on this as well.
It is a pretty sweet list. 4x K-Command are a bit too much I think, sometimes they can get extremely clunky (like in the hatebears game).
I still think not playing damnation mainboard is a mistake in this meta with zoo/affinity/hatebears/abzan company/elves. We are not flooding the board almost at all to be afraid that it will hit us as well. And Jace->flashback damnation is just way too good.
I have a hard time justifying the 1-off Lili. Lili is good if you can have her on a relevant turn mostly (meaning 3-4) and with 1 copy this is hard. Additionally she is weak in aggressive metas. She is great when she is there I guess but I am still not sure.
I played Liliana as a one of for a while and it isn't as bad as it sounds. She is a a strong grindy tool who is actually fine to draw late the game, she's completely relevant because almost no deck in the format can afford her ult going off so late game drawing her in a near neutral board position is fine. She'll divert a lot of resources, stop combo decks from just holding onto cards until they win and be a reusable edict against big creature match ups. Sure she's dead against fast aggro but at a huge GP you have to account for everything and we are a dog game one to most really fast aggro decks anyway. As a one of she won't come up often in game ones against fast aggro decks but come up a lot in grindy games where we see a ton more cards. It's not a great choice but it's a more than justifiable value one of.
The main deck damnation is one thing that is super meta dependant. At a huge GP where every deck is going to be represented its hard to fault anyone for keeping sweepers in the side especially given the prevalence of BGX and fringe combo decks recently.
I get what you're saying about Lilly off the top deck, but in this shell she's not as bad off the top next to Jace. Also, if you've made it to top-decking, and your board state is about equally clean, then they will have to deal with Lilly before they can win. Either that, or you don't see her at all; no foul no harm. I think the main deck Damnation is overkill; I rather have Lilly in that spot anyway game 1 in an unknown field. We have enough removal and recursion for game 1 imo.
Fulminator is nasty, and worth it next to that many Koms. I think that all those copies are to ensure an early draw, to then apply pressure early against Tron. Most people make the mistake of saccing him early instead of getting a good 2-3 swings in. I personally like a split between the two cards next to kom and Jace though. I get a chump blocker on one and immediate value on the other.
I feel like one of his Koms should have been another Rise/Fall.
The top 8 was full of decks that had fallen off a bit, so that was pretty cool. I was pretty impressed by the selected builds and sideboards of this deck, ur twin, hatebears and affinity.
Here's my list, adapted from the Top8 list at GP Pittsburgh.
Don't have the cards yet but I will be proxy'ing it before buying. I've changed the land base slightly as I'm not a fan of check-lands so I took them out for the 9th Fetch and 3ed Tar Pit. I've also completely removed the 4 Thought Scours for 3 Mana leak and 1 Damnation, this may be a huge mistake but I'm willing to try it. Let me know what you think, and if it's a mistake not to run Thought Scour.
Yeah, removing thought scour is a huge mistake, but better to learn from mistakes firsthand. There will undoubtedly be someone willing to explain the many reasons for their necessity if it is still unclear to you after trying leaks in their place.
Yeah, removing thought scour is a huge mistake, but better to learn from mistakes firsthand. There will undoubtedly be someone willing to explain the many reasons for their necessity if it is still unclear to you after trying leaks in their place.
Can I get away with 3 Scours or is it really preferable to have 4?
You can get away with 3, but I feel like the 4th gives the deck the little extra consistency boost it benefits from. This deck wins because of the 2 for 1s and efficiency virtualized through graveyard use. Scour is the gas that fills that graveyard for use. It lets you "see" more cards so that you have optimal options throughout gameplay. Darkblast is also a good card that can produce a similar effect while helping kill stuff.
This deck will jump to developing competitive on the next update. What do you guys think are the chances of it going to Tier 2 by or after the Pro tour in January? Also, do you think it will replace Chapin's Grixis control or they will be 2 seperate decks?
Speculating about its upward mobility is moot. It is a bad thing if it goes on the radar anyway.
And why's that? If it goes on the radar thats a good thing; I want more people to be aware of/playing the deck so that we have more minds working on the deck and making it better. It will definitely go up to developing competitive in December and I want to see it hit tier 2 after the Pro tour in January.
C'mon. Please just think of reasons that your assumptions might be faulty. This is totally why I should go back to lurking. Just think about what the things are that you're talking about, like "tiers": a hierarchy assigned to decks, based on their performances in various metagames. Cool. Whether people are going to popularize the deck by playing it is anyone's guess and once a deck enters the hivemind of online store-sponsored strategy content, the deck will lose its element of surprise and get chewed-up by or join the whirling storm of called others doing as they please.
Why's amateur magic sociology moot? Because magic is a game where theory/strategy/deckbuilding is still a supplement to actually playing it.
If you like the deck, play it and if it works well for you, keep playing it, share notes and enjoy the enterprise of playing a tech, underappreciated deck that nobody is gunning for yet.
Being hitched to the winning team is overrated and it being on the radar just raises the odds of the thread getting clogged by prattling people who don't play, but love to share and argue over ideas and with people who actually do play and would rather not have to be always guessing whether someone is full of it.
I agree tiered or not I really don't care, I love this deck I enjoy the playstyle and the fact that it is tuneable for any meta either before the event of during sideboard I think Jace is great and pia/Kiran paired with K-command gives us a great value engine. Who cares if it is tiered or not play what you enjoy, if that's a tiered winning proven deck JUND and affinity never really go away, haven't since they became decks in modern, if you want to play this or any other fringe deck then do it and make it the best you can without worrying about the pros or tierlists.
If I would have listened to tier-related opinions I wouldn't be whipping ass with an Allies deck against those same top tier decks
Being under the radar is a good thing though. Everyone was crying about graveyard hate against us and wanting to drop the deck. I wonder if robots goes through that lol.
What did people think of the land destruction package used for Pittsburgh? Was it too much? Good idea for the open field? Would two or three moons have been better to open up extra slots. In retrospect, are there any card options that would have increased his success with the deck, or was the deck pretty sweet as is, just gotta hope to dodge the bad matchups. Let's get something a little more on topic going lol.
Dunc, what's your current list that you've been testing? I've been in standard for last couple months. Getting the Jace machine back up and running, and would love to see your list. Corey B keeps doing great with his list, I just don't like the limited access to counter magic. 3 dispel and 1 glen don't seem to be enough. Also noticed everyone cutting down to 1 rise and 1 Lilli???
My list is in Flux right now because I decided to try adding 4 exarchs and 3 twins for some fun the last few weeks I'll post the list I was playing before that below. I only played 21 land because I just never seem to have problems finding it, I know most lists are at 22 or 23 but I find that I flood too regularly with that many so I dropped one for a K-command didn't test much before switching it out for twins and stuff. And I apologize for not posting it correctly my tablet struggles if I don't just type it out normally.
Land - 21
Steam vents x2
Blood crypt x1
Watery grave x1
Polluted delta x4
Bloodstained mire x4
Sulfur falls X2
Creeping tar pit X2
Blackcleave cliffs X2
Basics x3 (one of each)
Instant
Bolt x4
Thought scour x3
Terminate x 3
Remand X2
Mana leak X2
K command x3
Hey guys sorry I've been a bit absent. Updated the Primer to include some talking points about SB options. Feel free to post anything I missed or refute/discuss my choices and their reasons.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
I think grim lavamancer should be included in the primer maybe it's personal bias because of my meta but man has that card been an all star for me since I find I struggle against lingering souls and other wide strategies along with providing a strange clock.
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3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Mana Leak
3 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
1 Dreadbore
1 Terminate
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Damnation
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Rise // Fall
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Watery Grave
1 Blackleave Cliffs
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
2 Dispel
1 Rise // Fall
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Molten Rain
1 Negate
1 Spellskite
2 Vandalblast
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppit15/top-8-decklists-2015-11-22
A few things stand out to me:
- I love the 1-of Rise // Fall and Liliana of the Veil. I think this can push the discard package from being disrupting to backbreaking with only a few slots. Almost want to see a 2nd Rise//Fall, but I understand why it is a 1-of.
- 4 Kolaghan's Command is a LOT. The card did a ton of work for him though. Without the counter package, I don't know if there is much else to slot here instead, aside spicy things. Maybe Electrolyze?
- Dismember as the 1-of B removal is interesting. I think I would prefer Go for the Throat, just to hit Titans and avoid skites, but curious to see what others think.
- The 1 Blackcleave Cliffs seems super weird to me. Sure, you could start with it and turn 1 IoK, but if that is important in the plan, I would think more than one would be preferred. As-is, it seems like this would be a Guild Gate the majority of the time, and might be better as a 9th fetch or something. Curious to hear opinions on this as well.
Was cool to see this sweet deck in the Top 8!
I still think not playing damnation mainboard is a mistake in this meta with zoo/affinity/hatebears/abzan company/elves. We are not flooding the board almost at all to be afraid that it will hit us as well. And Jace->flashback damnation is just way too good.
1 Blackcleave Cliffs and 1 Darkslick Shores (instead of Drowned Catacomb) shoudl be ok.
I have a hard time justifying the 1-off Lili. Lili is good if you can have her on a relevant turn mostly (meaning 3-4) and with 1 copy this is hard. Additionally she is weak in aggressive metas. She is great when she is there I guess but I am still not sure.
Rise // Fall is simply great.
I also strongly think that Molten rain is better than Fulminator Mage because we have more spells to reuse it.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
The main deck damnation is one thing that is super meta dependant. At a huge GP where every deck is going to be represented its hard to fault anyone for keeping sweepers in the side especially given the prevalence of BGX and fringe combo decks recently.
Fulminator is nasty, and worth it next to that many Koms. I think that all those copies are to ensure an early draw, to then apply pressure early against Tron. Most people make the mistake of saccing him early instead of getting a good 2-3 swings in. I personally like a split between the two cards next to kom and Jace though. I get a chump blocker on one and immediate value on the other.
I feel like one of his Koms should have been another Rise/Fall.
The top 8 was full of decks that had fallen off a bit, so that was pretty cool. I was pretty impressed by the selected builds and sideboards of this deck, ur twin, hatebears and affinity.
Don't have the cards yet but I will be proxy'ing it before buying. I've changed the land base slightly as I'm not a fan of check-lands so I took them out for the 9th Fetch and 3ed Tar Pit. I've also completely removed the 4 Thought Scours for 3 Mana leak and 1 Damnation, this may be a huge mistake but I'm willing to try it. Let me know what you think, and if it's a mistake not to run Thought Scour.
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
1x Dismember
1x Go for the Throat
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
3x Terminate
3x Kolaghan's Command
Planeswalker (1)
1x Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery (10)
1x Damnation
1x Rise/Fall
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
4x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Can I get away with 3 Scours or is it really preferable to have 4?
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
And why's that? If it goes on the radar thats a good thing; I want more people to be aware of/playing the deck so that we have more minds working on the deck and making it better. It will definitely go up to developing competitive in December and I want to see it hit tier 2 after the Pro tour in January.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Why's amateur magic sociology moot? Because magic is a game where theory/strategy/deckbuilding is still a supplement to actually playing it.
If you like the deck, play it and if it works well for you, keep playing it, share notes and enjoy the enterprise of playing a tech, underappreciated deck that nobody is gunning for yet.
Being hitched to the winning team is overrated and it being on the radar just raises the odds of the thread getting clogged by prattling people who don't play, but love to share and argue over ideas and with people who actually do play and would rather not have to be always guessing whether someone is full of it.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Being under the radar is a good thing though. Everyone was crying about graveyard hate against us and wanting to drop the deck. I wonder if robots goes through that lol.
What did people think of the land destruction package used for Pittsburgh? Was it too much? Good idea for the open field? Would two or three moons have been better to open up extra slots. In retrospect, are there any card options that would have increased his success with the deck, or was the deck pretty sweet as is, just gotta hope to dodge the bad matchups. Let's get something a little more on topic going lol.
Land - 21
Steam vents x2
Blood crypt x1
Watery grave x1
Polluted delta x4
Bloodstained mire x4
Sulfur falls X2
Creeping tar pit X2
Blackcleave cliffs X2
Basics x3 (one of each)
Instant
Bolt x4
Thought scour x3
Terminate x 3
Remand X2
Mana leak X2
K command x3
Sorcery
Serum x4
Iok x4
Rise/fall x1
Creatures
Jace X4
Snap x3
PKN X2
Tasigur x2
Grim lavamancer x1
Walkers
Liliana x 1
SB
Molten rain x3
Surgical extraction x2
Dispel x2
Negate x1
Damnation x1
Anger of the gods x2
Vandalblast x1
Spellskite x1
Engineered explosives x1
Lilian of the veil x1
URURxUR
UWUWxUW