That is why we need the mix. GftT for pro red threats and to go around spellskite, terminate for everything else, dismember same as GftT hits artifacts/doesn't go around spellskite.
Hi guys!
I discovered this deck 3 day's ago and i'm in love with it! I tested this list today, to see how the deck work (i will build the sb in the week), what are you thinking about?
Hi guys!
I discovered this deck 3 day's ago and i'm in love with it! I tested this list today, to see how the deck work (i will build the sb in the week), what are you thinking about?
<decklist>
If you have any suggestion to improve this list, i listen that!
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Hi guys!
I discovered this deck 3 day's ago and i'm in love with it! I tested this list today, to see how the deck work (i will build the sb in the week), what are you thinking about?
If you have any suggestion to improve this list, i listen that!
Bye
3 Gurmag Angler and 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang seems like a lot of delve, most lists run just the 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang, and maybe 1 Gurmag Angler. You never really want more than one in your hand especially early. And once you delve away cards to cast one, you'll be stuck holding the other until you can manage to bin more cards to fuel delve, and simply you wont have the luxary of time to do that.
Hey guys, here's an update on what I've been running the past couple of weeks. It changes almost daily, but the core remains about the same. The sideboard is tuned to my local meta, and will be undergoing changes for the IQ this weekend at my local shop in anticipation of a wider metagame.
The dispel/snare I've been testing to some success, and trying to figure out if i'm going to keep them for this weekend. Tribute to hunger has been sweet in the mb, and can help mitigate some of our lifeloss from the mana base.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
He has a very similar list to what I have been moving to in terms of having a few counters along side the discard spells and I like the overall though process of that version but I have a a few issues with it. The first and most important issue is I hate hangarback walker in this list. It is less top end powerful than pyromancer a far worse clock and we really want to be doing something better at 2 mana lategame it is a better topdeck but idk I feel liek we have better options there. The second oddity with that list is why split 1/1 with gurmag and tasigur I think that is just wrong 2 tasigur almost never run into each other. Other than that it is where I see my version and a lot of peoples decks going I like having just a couple of counters alongside our more proactive discard control cards. I currently have 4 counters alongside 4 IOK 2 rise/fall and 3 k-command and the numbers feel good there you do have to play rise / fall a little different as it is often times better to hold up the mana for a counter rather than cast the fall rise fall later tends to hold a little more value as it hits 2 cards much more often though and its still a great way to punish missed land drops. I did drop Liliana to 1 because of these changes and mana constraints. It probably should be out of the list given how much other control and discard I have but I find it really hard to remove her completely and she isn't a bad one of to have. I play 2 pia and kiran where he plays hangarback and that card feels a lot better than anything else I have had in that slot. Again my list is a little more control heavy but I think this and many other articles have proven this deck is very credible the jace/snapcaster core allows for a lot of variation of builds, I only play 3 of each though and haven't really found a need for the fourth of either. Difference like that aren't major but do allow us to shift the pieces around the core enough to fit our own play styles.
Hey guys, normally delver player branching out to more Grixis decks. Just a few questions: how come most of you run some amount of liliana of the veil (main board or sideboard)? It seems like a bad combination with countermagic and the cards in the deck don't seem nearly as powerful as jund/ks cards, so it would seem like we would want to keep card advantage available if we face a deck like that. Did a little bit of testing, and Jace is a powerhouse, especially alongside grim lavamancer and an unflipped Jace. Any general tips though about the deck I should know? The sequencing seems similar to the chapin control list and the delver lists, but Jace just adds a new spectrum to it all.
Hey guys, normally delver player branching out to more Grixis decks. Just a few questions: how come most of you run some amount of liliana of the veil (main board or sideboard)? It seems like a bad combination with countermagic and the cards in the deck don't seem nearly as powerful as jund/ks cards, so it would seem like we would want to keep card advantage available if we face a deck like that. Did a little bit of testing, and Jace is a powerhouse, especially alongside grim lavamancer and an unflipped Jace. Any general tips though about the deck I should know? The sequencing seems similar to the chapin control list and the delver lists, but Jace just adds a new spectrum to it all.
Generally, you play either Lili + Abbot or countermagic. When you side one in, you side the other out. Both are situationally good, just depends on the matchup. Some people like the counterspells, I'm only playing 2x Dispel in the side and that's it - I might switch them out for Remands though. Bouncing spells back to their hand isn't nearly as bad when you can just make them discard it.
The deck functions at sorcery speed much more than most Delver or control lists. It feels weird to tap out in a blue deck, but you have to get the most out of your early turns.
Liliana is just a powerhouse card. She is currently probably at the weakest in the modern meta she has been in a long time but it is still good to have her around. Since we tend to be a much more tap out proactive style deck liliana is very good as that is where she is played more normally. Having jace and liliana side by side is just a lock on almost any game. Especially in the abbot heavy super proactive versions she tops out the curve (excluding delve creatures since their mana costs are fake) with a powerful grinding tool that helps players reach that low resource game state where multiple jaces and abbots providing card advantage wins games, there is no better modern tool for reaching that low resource game state in modern. Even in counterspell versions without abbots she is still a high impact card in certain matchups that it usually pays off to have access to 1 or 2 somewhere in the 75. I personally because of her weakness in the current meta and because I have pia and kiran nalaar topping my curve at double red making her mana cost a little awkward only have 1 copy of her main and 1 side along with 4 counters main and a few more hanging out in the board and haven't found many issues since when boarding your always going up on 1 and down on the other. These though are just the reasons why she is strong and why you see a lot of us especially those like me that have been around since the thread started holding on to her somewhere in our lists. It isn't required for the deck in any way this deck more so than most in modern can be tuned to be more fitting of anyone's play style since the core is so versatile and strong you can play a more classic control version with counter magic or a more black red proactive discard version either way tuning the deck to be what you want is the most important factor and Liliana while powerful isn't a core card. If you don't like her then just don't play her we have plenty of other high ceiling high value options that could be in that slot especially at 3 mana.
As for the power level comparison to the BGx decks that have a similar play style I did talk about this a while back but I can post something similar again. Doing a straight card to card comparison between our deck and other grindy midrange strategies this deck will always seem weaker. That is simply because we aren't a traditional value midrange deck we don't get to run people over with IOK into goyf into lingering souls into rhino or anything of the sort. Where our deck gets it strength isn't just from the quality of each individual card or threat its from the area that any BGx player know their deck tends to be weak and that is synergy. Most BGx decks are just a collection of outstanding powerful magic cards that don't really work well together but since they are so strong individually the deck works (I still dust off JUNK every now and then if I want to switch things up and think less) . Ours on the other hand relies on synergies to makeup for an initial card power disparity. The jace/snap + kolaghan's command engine slowly but surely 2 for 1 here 1 for 1 there gets us a different advantage. The deck in my opinion is so much harder to play than traditional midrange decks for that reason, each turn has so many different lines of play and sequences that allow the deck to really reward the best players but punish weaker ones, seeing those lines looking several turns ahead managing all your resource properly since we tax every resource mtg gives us, that is where the deck becomes fun but also sees its biggest strength, there is almost always a winning line the deck feels like a puzzle trying to find the right sequence of plays to create a win. It is too easy to look at the list we play and say its jund but instead of goyf and bob they have jace and snap but if you really look at how the deck operates its on a totally different level. Best recommendation decide how you want to play and build accordingly with Jace/Snap + K-command it is hard to go wrong.
While we are on the subject of Lilly, in a list with 4 counters main, and 2 or 3 on the side, do we want 1 Lilly or 1 Keranos. I feel like half the matches I want Lilly, I also want some countermagic in. I've been able to play around Lilly's discard to be able to play my counters since Lilly is only a 1-of, but I'm not sure if I should just be dropping a Keranos instead. (I'm asking as "in general" since they have different uses/niches).
If you are on a counter magic more controlling version then Keranos is a definite possibility. I agree if you only have one Liliana in the 75 then it does make a lot of sense to play the Keranos since he is a wincon on his own he is great against the slower decks in the format. I have considered the switch myself but I am actually holding on to the Liliana probably more out of personal bias towards Liliana than any other tangible reasoning. Keranos main isn't something I have ever been a huge fan of but in this deck I think it could be very strong definitely stronger than having a single Liliana in the 75. Let us know how it goes having jace and keranos side by side is just card advantage for days.
If you are on a counter magic more controlling version then Keranos is a definite possibility. I agree if you only have one Liliana in the 75 then it does make a lot of sense to play the Keranos since he is a wincon on his own he is great against the slower decks in the format. I have considered the switch myself but I am actually holding on to the Liliana probably more out of personal bias towards Liliana than any other tangible reasoning. Keranos main isn't something I have ever been a huge fan of but in this deck I think it could be very strong definitely stronger than having a single Liliana in the 75. Let us know how it goes having jace and keranos side by side is just card advantage for days.
Why do you think that Keranos is better in a counterspell/non-Lily list? To me it seems to work pretty well with Lili, forcing your opponent to discard any answers they may have had, and then drop Keranos and grind 'em out with that inevitability. It's not like a counterspell, where you need to keep it in your hand to be any use. My main argument against playing Keranos is that you really don't want to hit it off of Abbot.
New to this archetype, switching over from Grixis Control just to see how Jace is in Modern. I saw the list by Anthony Lowry but noticed he changed it quite a bit at the tournament itself. I had a few questions such as:
1. Are Blackcleave Cliffs necessary? Are there stable manabases that don't require them?
2. Any recent examples using a few maindeck counterspells?
Thanks gkourou, I'll like try something similar and see how it goes. Does this deck also have a bad match-up against Tron like Chapin's Grixis?
Overall this deck suffers from many of the same problems. If your meta is heavy tron and heavy burn, this deck probably isn't good for your meta. This deck thrives in heavy grind metas.
I've been having some success with a related but different deck that might interest you all: Grixis Prowess, featuring 4 Abbot. It doesn't really fit here, so I started another thread on it.
P.S. To contribute something of value to the thread beyond pimping my own: I worry that Blue Jund is a trap - with or without Abbots. It reminds me a lot of Abzan and pre-Jace Grixis control - grinds other midrange decks into the dirt, but doesn't have enough pressure to consistently beat many of the combo, linear, or big mana decks in the format, relegating it to more of a metagame deck. It's the classic problem for control decks in modern (yes I know Abzan isn't a control deck, and even the Grixis decks aren't completely control decks). I see two possible solutions: cut the Jaces and add Swiftspears (hey, look, I just posted a thread on that!) or add 4 Exarch, 1 Pestermite, and 3 Twin to the MD. I don't say this just to take a dump on this thread's favorite deck - knowing your deck's key weakness is the first step to solving it. If I were working on Blue Jund, that's where I would be focusing my attention.
P.P.S. I haven't been keeping up with the thread, so forgive me if you guys have already discussed this, but holy crap is Pia and Kiran Nalaar good. Should be in your SB and maybe even 1 MD.
Your P.S. is why I've stopped playing both this deck and the regular control deck. Until something major changes, control decks can at best be a meta call where you can certainly see individual success, but the decks as a whole just don't have the tools to be successful in the meta. Both this and the other grixis deck have SERIOUS issues in burn and Tron (and merfolk!), and until those can be mitigated without giving up percentages against the rest of the field it's just not worth it. If the meta is ALL BG(x) and Twin, then great, go for it.
I have seriously enjoyed the deck but I agree I think it was better a little while ago when the format was super long and grindy. I still feel like the deck is strong but with the rise of wide aggro decks, this deck has gotten worse. To play a strategy like this now we have to start looking towards control decks of old maindecking sweepers and settling in for much longer games. I recently played a FNM with 2 maindeck anger and a maindeck damnation it really did help the deck in a lot of match ups that previously were very poor. We have to have bigger plays to leverage with jace an I find sweepers to be the best thing to leverage right now. I basically have something that is more of a hybrid between this and Chapin grixis while maindecking sweepers in an attempt to keep playing this strategy. It worked but now we are looking at something more like a grixis control deck and I don't know what those changes have done in terms of effecting my matchups versus the BGx decks of the world its definitely worse but I don't think it is worse enough to make us unfavored. For now I will keep testing the more controlling maindeck sweeper versions see where it goes maybe being serious grixis control is what we need in a meta full of merfolk, elves (locally), and affinity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I discovered this deck 3 day's ago and i'm in love with it! I tested this list today, to see how the deck work (i will build the sb in the week), what are you thinking about?
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Rise // Fall
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Terminate
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thought Scour
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Creeping Tar Pit
If you have any suggestion to improve this list, i listen that!
Bye
Jace, play jace. Jace is love. Jace is life.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
3 Gurmag Angler and 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang seems like a lot of delve, most lists run just the 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang, and maybe 1 Gurmag Angler. You never really want more than one in your hand especially early. And once you delve away cards to cast one, you'll be stuck holding the other until you can manage to bin more cards to fuel delve, and simply you wont have the luxary of time to do that.
And like Pizz0wn3d said. Jace.
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Pia and Kia Nalaar
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells (28)
4 Serum Visions
3 Thought Scour
2 Mana Leak
1 Dispel
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
1 Dismember
1 Tribute to Hunger
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Rise // Fall
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Negate
1 Countersquall
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vandalblast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Molten Rain
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Engineered Eplosives
2 Spellskite
The dispel/snare I've been testing to some success, and trying to figure out if i'm going to keep them for this weekend. Tribute to hunger has been sweet in the mb, and can help mitigate some of our lifeloss from the mana base.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
Non-creatures:
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Forked Bolt
1 Rise // Fall
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
1 Murderous Cut
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Rending Volley
2 Duress
1 Vandalblast
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Deprive
1 Deathmark
2 Magma Spray
1 Crumble to Dust
2 Vampiric Link
1 Outpost Siege
Youtube Channel
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
Generally, you play either Lili + Abbot or countermagic. When you side one in, you side the other out. Both are situationally good, just depends on the matchup. Some people like the counterspells, I'm only playing 2x Dispel in the side and that's it - I might switch them out for Remands though. Bouncing spells back to their hand isn't nearly as bad when you can just make them discard it.
The deck functions at sorcery speed much more than most Delver or control lists. It feels weird to tap out in a blue deck, but you have to get the most out of your early turns.
As for the power level comparison to the BGx decks that have a similar play style I did talk about this a while back but I can post something similar again. Doing a straight card to card comparison between our deck and other grindy midrange strategies this deck will always seem weaker. That is simply because we aren't a traditional value midrange deck we don't get to run people over with IOK into goyf into lingering souls into rhino or anything of the sort. Where our deck gets it strength isn't just from the quality of each individual card or threat its from the area that any BGx player know their deck tends to be weak and that is synergy. Most BGx decks are just a collection of outstanding powerful magic cards that don't really work well together but since they are so strong individually the deck works (I still dust off JUNK every now and then if I want to switch things up and think less) . Ours on the other hand relies on synergies to makeup for an initial card power disparity. The jace/snap + kolaghan's command engine slowly but surely 2 for 1 here 1 for 1 there gets us a different advantage. The deck in my opinion is so much harder to play than traditional midrange decks for that reason, each turn has so many different lines of play and sequences that allow the deck to really reward the best players but punish weaker ones, seeing those lines looking several turns ahead managing all your resource properly since we tax every resource mtg gives us, that is where the deck becomes fun but also sees its biggest strength, there is almost always a winning line the deck feels like a puzzle trying to find the right sequence of plays to create a win. It is too easy to look at the list we play and say its jund but instead of goyf and bob they have jace and snap but if you really look at how the deck operates its on a totally different level. Best recommendation decide how you want to play and build accordingly with Jace/Snap + K-command it is hard to go wrong.
Why do you think that Keranos is better in a counterspell/non-Lily list? To me it seems to work pretty well with Lili, forcing your opponent to discard any answers they may have had, and then drop Keranos and grind 'em out with that inevitability. It's not like a counterspell, where you need to keep it in your hand to be any use. My main argument against playing Keranos is that you really don't want to hit it off of Abbot.
1. Are Blackcleave Cliffs necessary? Are there stable manabases that don't require them?
2. Any recent examples using a few maindeck counterspells?
Thanks.
Overall this deck suffers from many of the same problems. If your meta is heavy tron and heavy burn, this deck probably isn't good for your meta. This deck thrives in heavy grind metas.
P.S. To contribute something of value to the thread beyond pimping my own: I worry that Blue Jund is a trap - with or without Abbots. It reminds me a lot of Abzan and pre-Jace Grixis control - grinds other midrange decks into the dirt, but doesn't have enough pressure to consistently beat many of the combo, linear, or big mana decks in the format, relegating it to more of a metagame deck. It's the classic problem for control decks in modern (yes I know Abzan isn't a control deck, and even the Grixis decks aren't completely control decks). I see two possible solutions: cut the Jaces and add Swiftspears (hey, look, I just posted a thread on that!) or add 4 Exarch, 1 Pestermite, and 3 Twin to the MD. I don't say this just to take a dump on this thread's favorite deck - knowing your deck's key weakness is the first step to solving it. If I were working on Blue Jund, that's where I would be focusing my attention.
P.P.S. I haven't been keeping up with the thread, so forgive me if you guys have already discussed this, but holy crap is Pia and Kiran Nalaar good. Should be in your SB and maybe even 1 MD.
Your P.S. is why I've stopped playing both this deck and the regular control deck. Until something major changes, control decks can at best be a meta call where you can certainly see individual success, but the decks as a whole just don't have the tools to be successful in the meta. Both this and the other grixis deck have SERIOUS issues in burn and Tron (and merfolk!), and until those can be mitigated without giving up percentages against the rest of the field it's just not worth it. If the meta is ALL BG(x) and Twin, then great, go for it.