^^ The only thing I notice is that you are leaning fairly hard on the tempo plan with the flame slash, dismember and roast so why not add more pestermite.
@ monkeyroar- After giving it more thought I really like your build, I essentially want to be playing UR with goyfs and I think the 4 twins and 6 "twiners" is the way to go about that. That being said it also makes sense to me to cut the second cryptic command for a leaner spell.
Has anyone tried 21 lands and 3 probes? Surely probes count as some number of lands.
Some forum that isn't trying to discuss real RUG Twin lists.
So what is REAL RUG twin? Only when there's tarmo in the list then it be called real? If that's so why ain't ALL champion be working to be billionaire instead of training and build testing? Since as long as you are rich you are able to buy all the best, most expensive cards and automatically your deck is REAL and not horrible!
I was reading dickmann's latest article and this particular line "This taxes their removal as they often have to decide whether they want to get rid of Tarmogoyf or whether they rather kill the tappers." really got me thinking. Combining this with deciding to play 4 twins I feel really compelled to play huntmaster. I got to thinking about the difference in winrates between resolving a twin on a pestermite/deciever vs on a huntmaster. At first glance I am inclined to think this difference is quite small and if it's not then the question is how many games will huntmaster help us win?
If I do run 2 MD, I will probably go for a 4/2 split of pestermite/deciever to tax my opponents lightning bolts. Maybe that is bad logic but I don't think it can be a huge mistake as pestermite still has obvious upside. What I am imagining is people holding their bolts too long letting pestermite swing a couple times then as they realize I am fine with the beat down plan they finally bolt, or just remove, pestermite which opens up a window for huntmaster.
It's tough though we get so few flex spots, maybe I just play 1 huntmaster for a pierce or a dispel. And if it matters this all come about because I felt my post-board jund/junk matchup was a bit lacking. I will definitely test this out.
Hey there all I'm new to this. But what is everyone's opinion on Bounding Krasis. I understand hes no Pestermite nor Deceiver Exarch but I do believe he has potential.
Hey there all I'm new to this. But what is everyone's opinion on Bounding Krasis. I understand hes no Pestermite nor Deceiver Exarch but I do believe he has potential.
I like Krasis. It definitely bites that it can't (un)tap lands, but a Flash 3/3 for 3 mana is real and is almost everything Breaching Hippocamp wishes it could be (Hippocamp doesn't die to Decay or need green mana, but that's it).
Be aware that Krasis is pretty good at luring removal, unlike Deceiver Exarch.
In my current Goyf Twin list, I have a 2-2-2 Exarch-Pestermite-Krasis split. Given my aggro tendencies (my list packs 18 creatures (all of which are 3 cmc or less), 2 Collected Company, 1 Gather the Pack, and a big tendency to win with beats), I'd pull a Deceiver Exarch if I want to cut an "Exarch".
I agree with Patrick Dickmann's assertion that 22 lands plus 2 Gitaxian Probe is where you want to be with this deck. The reason is that it increases your chances of a Turn 1 Sorcery, which along with a fetchland puts your Tarmogoyf out of Bolt range (this is very relevant). It also slightly improves the consistency of the deck.
An option for Surrak could be Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - gives you a lot more protection. I know the UR Twin players are using this tech, and I'm not 100% sure why it hasn't ported over to RUG just yet.
I wouldn't board them out personally, unless we are playing burn of course. I would venture to guess that you are sideboarding suboptimally if you are boarding out probes. But who knows? Can you give some examples?
For Burn, keep the Probes and take out an additional Remand and either Cryptic Command or Roast. Cryptic is a little slow in the match-up.
For Jund - you take out 2 Exarch's and 2 Splinter Twins (I like keeping one in case). You're on the tempo plan and Pestermite is better at sniping shots in, Exarch barely does anything in the match. Bring in the 2 Huntmasters, Jace and Keranos - and then you could bring in Roast for Electrolyze.
Junk Company - I don't have experience with this match-up, but is the combo plan bad? I'm not sure about the Huntmaster's either way.
UR Twin - take out another Splinter Twin, and change it up. You can't be predictable with your boarding here. People expect you to go Control.
Affinity - Spell Pierce can deal with Cranial Plating, so it's not definite out. You don't want Dismember, and Roast is a bit slow. Can't really fault your ins.
I've found that you have to be fluid with your post-board games, take out the Twin package, bring it back in again, keep your opponent guessing. The deck is well-known and our post-board game is also known.
OK, so I've decided to try -1 Spell Snare and add a Gitaxian Probe, so this is what my current list would look like. The mainboard is almost identical to Patrick Dickmann's list since the number really do make sense, the sidboard is custom for my meta.
So for burn, the sideboarding is pretty straightforward. I'd go with: -2 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Dismember, -3 Remand and add 2 Huntmaster of the Fells, 1 Spellskite, 2 Dispel, 1 Negate
I probably oversideboard sometimes, but for a matchup like Jund, the my plan would be: +2 Huntmaster, +1 Jace AoT, +1 EE, +1 Roast, +1 Keranos, and then -2 Pestermite, -1 Deceiver Exarch, -1 Splinter Twin, -2 Gitaxian Probe. I would take out a Spell Pierce on the draw instead of an exarch. My reasoning for taking out the probes is that the games will go on long either way post sideboard, so you're more likely to make land drops in the long run.
Junk Company: Here I sideboard the most heavily, and this is where I'm most likely to try and make room by cutting the probes: +2 Dispel, +1 Negate, +1 Izzet Staticaster, +2 Anger of the Gods, +2 Huntmaster of the Fells, +1 Roast, +1 EE, +1 Ancient Grudge. -2 Gitaxian Probe, -2 Splinter Twin, -3 Deceiver Exarch, -3 Remand, -1 Spell Pierce. Maybe on the play I'll go +1 Remand and -1 Spell Snare in addition.
It looks like there's a thread for Collected Company Twin in the Deck Creation forum. The discussion will be more focus there and you won't have to worry about condescending jerks that you need to overreact to
I played a 5 round tournament at my LGS. This was my first go with this deck. I didn't have my entire 75 so I had to settle on some sideboard choices. It doesn't exactly matter because it's not like I have tuned it anyways. I went 4-1 with this:
I lost to burn round 1. I kept fetch, visions, remand, spell snare, pestermite, twin. I don't know if it was correct. He goes turn 1 swiftspear -> Revel. I lose
Game 2 I bring in: 2 dispel, 2 negate Out: 2 probe, 1 twin, 1 exarch
I keep another one lander, visions into land -> visions + hold up snare, which hit a revel. But he just topdecked all gas and I couldnt find the combo.
Disappointing, I didn't see any goyfs. I probably could have mulled to a much better 6.
Round 2 Grislebanned 2-0
All I really remember is how good spell snare was.
Game 1 he mulled to five and saw a basic swamp and scooped after he missed it twice. I had no idea how to board.
Game 2 He loots and cycles forever. I let all the cantrips resolve. Goyf puts him on a clock and spell snare -> Snap spell snare on goyros twice wins I guess.
I think he had really bad luck. Although we played more matches and I went 4-0. Who knows.
Round 3 Mono-Green Elves 2-1
Game 1 He overruns me, I get to a spot where I can pestermite -> untap my land -> pestermite tap a 5/5 trampler -> go to 1 blocking with one pestermite so I could have topdecked twin. I did not. I also could have huntmastered and hoped his 3 cards in hand would not have increased his damage for one turn and gone to 2 hoping to flip pinging his lord and then combat snap + bolt and taking one going down to one. I'm not sure.
Game 2 T1 EE on 1 slows him down long enough to combo
Game 3 T1 EE on 1 -> T2 blow EE to leave him with arch druid. He plays settle and heritage. I T3 anger and felt terrible for him ha.
Round 4 Collected Abzan.
Game 1 I contain his board via spell snare, bolt and snap bolt and combo him out with one unknown card in his hand.
I bring in I bring in: 2 Anger, 1 EE, 2 dispel, 2 Negate Out: 2 Twin, 2 Exarch, 2 Remands, (can't remember?)
Game 2 Huntermaster makes him scoop with he flips to the 4/4 and I proceed to snap dispel coco which would have flipped him back
Round 5 Grixis Delver 2-1
Notes: Dismember was really good here. Could have used roast.
I am really clueless about my 75. I can't come up with a sideboard plan for my meta. I can't seem to balance just general powerful cards with bullets. I want to test huntmaster for a long time before I give up on him. I am also happy to be playing 4 twins.
First off, I know I kind of am just talking to myself but it is still important to talk out my ideas even if it is for myself.
Like I have said earlier, it's going to take a lot for me to cut huntmaster so I am gearing this 75 to optimize him. I initially included electrolyze for the affinity, elves and abzan coco matchup mostly, but as good as it is against those decks, I find it to be really clunky in almost any other matchup and I can imagine times where I am "wasting" mana just to shock and cycle. I also cut down on the combo going to 3 twins, 3 pestermite and 2 exarch. Maybe it is just a play style preference but I find that try to win the long game more often anyways. These cuts have allowed me to add an extra land, a MD dispel and a MD roast. The land is me just not being overly greedy. I added dispel to facilitate turn 5 huntmasters with dispel/snare back up as well as to improve all my grixis matchups as well as coco decks. I think 3 in our 75 is very powerful. The roast is basically a second dismember, but I thought I would hedge against the burn/aggro decks by doing the split. Also I decided staticaster was needed in my SB after cutting the MD electrolyze. I may play an IQ this Sunday and this is what I'd bring.
I am going to try a pretty similar list to patrick dickmans from charlete at a pptq tommorow. i just wonder if the maindeck clique should be a huntmaster. thoughts? I dont think i will just because my sideboard is midrange.deck
Thrun may be a feed the clan because this store has a butt-ton of burn a lot of the time because of budgets. but I am expecting some blue decks so thats where I stand right now
For your list I'd pick clique over huntmaster because it gives opportunities to combo off "discarding" decays and other removal. And you only have one way of casting and trying to protect huntmaster via one spell snare. Everything else is standard and solid! Let us know how it goes.
Congrats on your finish, it seems like you went up against a variety of top tier decks. Do you mind elaborating on huntmaster vs clique? I don't know what cute means exactly in the context of magic decks. Do you think he is too slow? Dies to too much removal? For me the thing about huntmaster that appeals to me the most is improving our GBx matchup. My experience with clique has mostly come in legacy where it shines as disruption and a clock versus combo decks, but I don't think the meta right now is really needing that function.
Yes I can certainly see the value in both. My gut tells me huntmaster has too much value to pass up like I have said, but it would be nice for others to test as well just to gather more data. I think you can run huntmaster into some huge blowouts and I think you really have to have a really defined plan or line you are going to take with him in mind. When he really shines for us is when our opponent has removed our goyf and a tapper and has 1-3 cards in hand. I don't think it is correct to be slamming huntmaster into open mana, or lots of cards. This is completely opposite of clique, where we want to be clique'ing as soon as turn 3 in their draw step/end step. His stock will obviously go up if Junk starts seeing play over Jund since he can't be decay'ed and if he gets path'ed with are getting some decent value.
If you want the forums advice, you should probably post your 75. Also if you could expand on "they don't let us do anything" people might be able to address the match-up more specifically.
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@ monkeyroar- After giving it more thought I really like your build, I essentially want to be playing UR with goyfs and I think the 4 twins and 6 "twiners" is the way to go about that. That being said it also makes sense to me to cut the second cryptic command for a leaner spell.
Has anyone tried 21 lands and 3 probes? Surely probes count as some number of lands.
Some forum that isn't trying to discuss real RUG Twin lists.
So what is REAL RUG twin? Only when there's tarmo in the list then it be called real? If that's so why ain't ALL champion be working to be billionaire instead of training and build testing? Since as long as you are rich you are able to buy all the best, most expensive cards and automatically your deck is REAL and not horrible!
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
If I do run 2 MD, I will probably go for a 4/2 split of pestermite/deciever to tax my opponents lightning bolts. Maybe that is bad logic but I don't think it can be a huge mistake as pestermite still has obvious upside. What I am imagining is people holding their bolts too long letting pestermite swing a couple times then as they realize I am fine with the beat down plan they finally bolt, or just remove, pestermite which opens up a window for huntmaster.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Loothouse
//Creatures [16]
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Pestermite
2 Deceiver Exarch
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
1 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
1 Electrolyze
1 Dismember
2 Gixatian Probe
//Enchantment [4]
4 Splinter Twin
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Spellskite
1 Dragon's Claw
It's tough though we get so few flex spots, maybe I just play 1 huntmaster for a pierce or a dispel. And if it matters this all come about because I felt my post-board jund/junk matchup was a bit lacking. I will definitely test this out.
I like Krasis. It definitely bites that it can't (un)tap lands, but a Flash 3/3 for 3 mana is real and is almost everything Breaching Hippocamp wishes it could be (Hippocamp doesn't die to Decay or need green mana, but that's it).
Be aware that Krasis is pretty good at luring removal, unlike Deceiver Exarch.
In my current Goyf Twin list, I have a 2-2-2 Exarch-Pestermite-Krasis split. Given my aggro tendencies (my list packs 18 creatures (all of which are 3 cmc or less), 2 Collected Company, 1 Gather the Pack, and a big tendency to win with beats), I'd pull a Deceiver Exarch if I want to cut an "Exarch".
I'd cut one of Dismember or Electrolyze and Polluted Delta (find the fourth Misty if you can) for the Probes.
An option for Surrak could be Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - gives you a lot more protection. I know the UR Twin players are using this tech, and I'm not 100% sure why it hasn't ported over to RUG just yet.
For Jund - you take out 2 Exarch's and 2 Splinter Twins (I like keeping one in case). You're on the tempo plan and Pestermite is better at sniping shots in, Exarch barely does anything in the match. Bring in the 2 Huntmasters, Jace and Keranos - and then you could bring in Roast for Electrolyze.
Junk Company - I don't have experience with this match-up, but is the combo plan bad? I'm not sure about the Huntmaster's either way.
UR Twin - take out another Splinter Twin, and change it up. You can't be predictable with your boarding here. People expect you to go Control.
Affinity - Spell Pierce can deal with Cranial Plating, so it's not definite out. You don't want Dismember, and Roast is a bit slow. Can't really fault your ins.
I've found that you have to be fluid with your post-board games, take out the Twin package, bring it back in again, keep your opponent guessing. The deck is well-known and our post-board game is also known.
It looks good to me! It's hard seeing someone elses sideboard though!
It looks like there's a thread for Collected Company Twin in the Deck Creation forum. The discussion will be more focus there and you won't have to worry about condescending jerks that you need to overreact to
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Loothouse
//Creatures [16]
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Pestermite
2 Deceiver Exarch
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
1 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
1 Electrolyze
1 Dismember
2 Gixatian Probe
//Enchantment [4]
4 Splinter Twin
2 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Counterflux
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Vedalkan Shackles
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 other card I didn't use.
I lost to burn round 1. I kept fetch, visions, remand, spell snare, pestermite, twin. I don't know if it was correct. He goes turn 1 swiftspear -> Revel. I lose
Game 2 I bring in: 2 dispel, 2 negate Out: 2 probe, 1 twin, 1 exarch
I keep another one lander, visions into land -> visions + hold up snare, which hit a revel. But he just topdecked all gas and I couldnt find the combo.
Disappointing, I didn't see any goyfs. I probably could have mulled to a much better 6.
Round 2 Grislebanned 2-0
All I really remember is how good spell snare was.
Game 1 he mulled to five and saw a basic swamp and scooped after he missed it twice. I had no idea how to board.
Game 2 He loots and cycles forever. I let all the cantrips resolve. Goyf puts him on a clock and spell snare -> Snap spell snare on goyros twice wins I guess.
I think he had really bad luck. Although we played more matches and I went 4-0. Who knows.
Round 3 Mono-Green Elves 2-1
Game 1 He overruns me, I get to a spot where I can pestermite -> untap my land -> pestermite tap a 5/5 trampler -> go to 1 blocking with one pestermite so I could have topdecked twin. I did not. I also could have huntmastered and hoped his 3 cards in hand would not have increased his damage for one turn and gone to 2 hoping to flip pinging his lord and then combat snap + bolt and taking one going down to one. I'm not sure.
I bring in: 2 Anger, 1 EE, 2 dispel, 2 Negate Out: 2 Twin, 2 Exarch, 2 Remands, 1 Huntmaster
Game 2 T1 EE on 1 slows him down long enough to combo
Game 3 T1 EE on 1 -> T2 blow EE to leave him with arch druid. He plays settle and heritage. I T3 anger and felt terrible for him ha.
Round 4 Collected Abzan.
Game 1 I contain his board via spell snare, bolt and snap bolt and combo him out with one unknown card in his hand.
I bring in I bring in: 2 Anger, 1 EE, 2 dispel, 2 Negate Out: 2 Twin, 2 Exarch, 2 Remands, (can't remember?)
Game 2 Huntermaster makes him scoop with he flips to the 4/4 and I proceed to snap dispel coco which would have flipped him back
Round 5 Grixis Delver 2-1
Notes: Dismember was really good here. Could have used roast.
I am really clueless about my 75. I can't come up with a sideboard plan for my meta. I can't seem to balance just general powerful cards with bullets. I want to test huntmaster for a long time before I give up on him. I am also happy to be playing 4 twins.
Like I have said earlier, it's going to take a lot for me to cut huntmaster so I am gearing this 75 to optimize him. I initially included electrolyze for the affinity, elves and abzan coco matchup mostly, but as good as it is against those decks, I find it to be really clunky in almost any other matchup and I can imagine times where I am "wasting" mana just to shock and cycle. I also cut down on the combo going to 3 twins, 3 pestermite and 2 exarch. Maybe it is just a play style preference but I find that try to win the long game more often anyways. These cuts have allowed me to add an extra land, a MD dispel and a MD roast. The land is me just not being overly greedy. I added dispel to facilitate turn 5 huntmasters with dispel/snare back up as well as to improve all my grixis matchups as well as coco decks. I think 3 in our 75 is very powerful. The roast is basically a second dismember, but I thought I would hedge against the burn/aggro decks by doing the split. Also I decided staticaster was needed in my SB after cutting the MD electrolyze. I may play an IQ this Sunday and this is what I'd bring.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Desolate Lighthouse
//Creatures [15]
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Pestermite
2 Deceiver Exarch
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
1 Cryptic Command
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Roast
1 Dismember
2 Gixatian Probe
//Enchantment [3]
3 Splinter Twin
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Spellskite
1 Izzet Staticaster
list:
1x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
3x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Splinter Twin
2x Cryptic Command
1x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Remand
1x Spell Snare
1x Pestermite
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Flame Slash
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x Roast
4x Serum Visions
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Negate
1x Pyroclasm
1x Roast
1x Spellskite
2x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
Thrun may be a feed the clan because this store has a butt-ton of burn a lot of the time because of budgets. but I am expecting some blue decks so thats where I stand right now
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR