Leak can definitely be better in certain situations but generally ceases to be so after turn 5. I agree leak is usually better against burn but its not like its the difference between making that matchup good or bad, it stays bad either way while deprive can improve more matchups. drawbacks to deprive rarely manifest themselves. That it costs UU shouldnt be an issue because if counterspell were legal we'd play it. Even if you arent playing deprive this deck generally wants access to UU by turn 2 anyway. Snapping it back is rarely a problem because we dont often need to get to 5 mana.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
Idrareb I count 59 cards unless it's just my tiredness?
Edit: Ah I guessed it was a missing Spell Snare
Also, I'd be very interested to hear how your sideboard does - I like the idea of keeping the functionality of the deck relatively intact after boarding. You prefer Negate over Flashfreeze? Are they for Tron?
I'd rather play 2 Dreadbore instead of the Roast in the board. Hit's planeswalkers and creatures with flying.
At first glance I understand that completely. However, Roast is easier to cast and that is not something to overlook in a deck where we would often have more red sources available than black.
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“Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.”
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I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
I understand what you're saying, but we're already playing Murderous Cut, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Terminate, and Kolaghan's Command. With the proper fetches, I don't see a problem with the colors and it's just a better card. I guess it all depends on your meta too. It's nice because it takes out Lili's and opposing Jace, AOT. Just my thought on it. Of course, this person won a PPTQ and I haven't, so he/she might know a thing or too lol.
Are you bringing roast in against affinity? If not then go for the throat is stric.... I'd rather play go for the throat.
edit: just because one list won a pptq doesnt mean its the best list. This deck rewards being "good at magic" and has game against everything. If a good player runs well they can succeed with a few questionable choices. Roast isnt a terrible card, its not like it doesnt do anything, but I think there are better options.
Good job on your record online! Let us know how the B/R Command goes, k? Also, what's the best way to play against Burn? I've played against it and I've won without ever drawing Dragon's Claw. I've found out that you must not let Eidolon of the Great Revel or any creatures of theirs to live. We must counter them or kill them on the spot and are odds of winning go up. Anyway, that's my take on it and was wondering about yours. Thanks!
Ari Lax has a modern video up on the premium side of SCG - he plays little zoo, but two of his opponents end up being Grixis Delver. 2nd or 3rd match and 4th match IIRC. Might be worth watching to see the matchup from the other side. He goes 1-1 against them.
<Obligatory Roast pile on>. I like Command over one of the Affinity cards in the SB - Affinity has got to be a great matchup already (correct me if I'm wrong), so I lean toward gaining % points elsewhere.
Play 18 lands, 4/4/4 Serum/Thoughtscour/Gitaxian Probe, and don't look back!
I don't think that spread is optimal. Does anyone else have any thoughts? In a U/R list the 4/4/4 spread is great because you can go all in with the pryromancer and the swift spear and are running a more forgiving mana base. A probe used to serve three functions, pump creatures, draw a card, and fill the yard for cruise. The life loss was upset by the power it was giving to the swift spears. I think to optimize the grixis list that traditional spread might want to be moved away from. We're already taking a lot of life from the shock lands. A realistic hand might be Delver, Pryomancer, Steam Vents, Blood Crypt, Probe, Bolt, Bolt. To take advantage of the tempo you're making a decision to take 6 life or give up a fast start and begin moving towards the mid game where larger creatures trump tokens.
I think 4/3/3/ S/T/GP might be a better base. All three of these cards are fantastic, I just found that when ever I have to sideboard, the probes are the first to go because of the life loss, and the lack of interaction they have with my opponents creatures. A very strong replacement for the 4th probe is an additional remand, which also scales better to the mid-game, and can-trips.
I disagree with 4x Probe in this deck. Whereas UR Delver is weak to lots of things like Goyf and Siege Rhino, which they cannot deal with once it's on board, Grixis Delver can deal with MOST spells the opponent casts. That's why seeing the opponent's hand makes less of a difference to us. UR Delver always played the highest counterspell count because of weakness to certain spells, whereas Grixis Delver tries to answer some of the creature with its targeted removals.
Another thing about 4x Probe is that our landbases, as previously stated, is more painful. We have an exacerbated Burn match up, but it can be improved by sideboard option and a more flexible maindeck. The 3x Probe was something that Temur Delver played for similar reasons since Tarmogoyf was a better play than anything the opponent can make, and filling up the graveyard with an extra Probe makes very little difference for the most part.
I agree with Moutz on this one. 4 Gitaxian Probes are a must.
The comment about boarding them correctly made me think the primer should have a section that focuses on what to side OUT in particular match-ups. The main deck always feels so tight and it would be great to hear everyone's game plan.
All of the creatures in this deck are dependant on a critical mass of spells. Whether its to flip delver, get peezy/snap value or play cheap delve spells. Probe is actually one of the best cards in the deck. The information is valuable even with a lowered counter suite. There are very few decks against which I have less than 4 probes in my deck for game 2. This card allows for some of our most explosive openings and while you generally dont want to see them lategame I still would rather draw probe than thought scour 9/10.
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4 Probes are a must in the standard build, but not because it makes your counterspells better - you could take away that feature and I would still 100% play 4 probes, though it is a nice bonus. It triggers Young Pyromancer, fuels delve, flips Delver, and lets you run less land - indirectly flipping Delver even more. And it does all of this often without costing a mana, which is incredible with Pyromancer and delve. They're obviously bad against Burn and little Zoo, but I don't think I would side them out in any other matchup.
4/3/4 of probe, scour and visions is better; so far i'm not always happy to draw a thought scour. In fact it's only in there because it's nuts when in our opening hand with tasigur, and im willing to concede to that to play a few. But drawing one mid game is so sad.
4 probes are a must. I don't see any viable reason to go less than 4 in your starting 60
I dont know what you would play over any of the 12 can trips, that the can trips themselves wont get you to. The deck is tight, so the can trips are simply there to get you to the cards that matter. Serum does that very well, Probe can do that for free, and Scour is an instant that only costs 1. The fact that they all also fill up your graveyard for free mana is huge... Playing an extra anything doesnt matter since the can trips will probably filter you to whatever you want anyways. Scour late game is fine, it costs 1 and is an instant, triggers Peezy and flips Delver. In the mid to late game you are probably on 5 or 6 mana, so the 1 doesnt really matter too much. It isnt a horrible late game draw, its just a card you quickly cast or hang onto for a multitude of reasons.
Dont go making this deck too complicated. 18 lands, 12 trips, counter magic, beats, and kill spells are efficient and do their job. The only time i worry about my life is against Burn, against everything else you need to be somewhat smart about it, but being totally reckless about your life against decks like Tron or Twin doesnt really matter. Have at it.
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Edit: Ah I guessed it was a missing Spell Snare
Also, I'd be very interested to hear how your sideboard does - I like the idea of keeping the functionality of the deck relatively intact after boarding. You prefer Negate over Flashfreeze? Are they for Tron?
At first glance I understand that completely. However, Roast is easier to cast and that is not something to overlook in a deck where we would often have more red sources available than black.
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
edit: just because one list won a pptq doesnt mean its the best list. This deck rewards being "good at magic" and has game against everything. If a good player runs well they can succeed with a few questionable choices. Roast isnt a terrible card, its not like it doesnt do anything, but I think there are better options.
<Obligatory Roast pile on>. I like Command over one of the Affinity cards in the SB - Affinity has got to be a great matchup already (correct me if I'm wrong), so I lean toward gaining % points elsewhere.
What would you board out / in for your matchup against twins and abzan?
I don't think that spread is optimal. Does anyone else have any thoughts? In a U/R list the 4/4/4 spread is great because you can go all in with the pryromancer and the swift spear and are running a more forgiving mana base. A probe used to serve three functions, pump creatures, draw a card, and fill the yard for cruise. The life loss was upset by the power it was giving to the swift spears. I think to optimize the grixis list that traditional spread might want to be moved away from. We're already taking a lot of life from the shock lands. A realistic hand might be Delver, Pryomancer, Steam Vents, Blood Crypt, Probe, Bolt, Bolt. To take advantage of the tempo you're making a decision to take 6 life or give up a fast start and begin moving towards the mid game where larger creatures trump tokens.
I think 4/3/3/ S/T/GP might be a better base. All three of these cards are fantastic, I just found that when ever I have to sideboard, the probes are the first to go because of the life loss, and the lack of interaction they have with my opponents creatures. A very strong replacement for the 4th probe is an additional remand, which also scales better to the mid-game, and can-trips.
Another thing about 4x Probe is that our landbases, as previously stated, is more painful. We have an exacerbated Burn match up, but it can be improved by sideboard option and a more flexible maindeck. The 3x Probe was something that Temur Delver played for similar reasons since Tarmogoyf was a better play than anything the opponent can make, and filling up the graveyard with an extra Probe makes very little difference for the most part.
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
The comment about boarding them correctly made me think the primer should have a section that focuses on what to side OUT in particular match-ups. The main deck always feels so tight and it would be great to hear everyone's game plan.
4 probes are a must. I don't see any viable reason to go less than 4 in your starting 60
Dont go making this deck too complicated. 18 lands, 12 trips, counter magic, beats, and kill spells are efficient and do their job. The only time i worry about my life is against Burn, against everything else you need to be somewhat smart about it, but being totally reckless about your life against decks like Tron or Twin doesnt really matter. Have at it.